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A confusing collectible

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I have in my hands a TB that is in a geocacher’s inventory (or collection) and can only be discovered because it is a “collectible”. It has been traveling for 5-6 years in many countries without increasing a single mile of distance and probably confused quite a few people :-). Neither the current holder or the owner responds to messages.

I’d like to know whether the traveling can be normalized in this case.

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How would you define "normalized"?  It belongs to the owner, so there's really not much you can do except treat it like a TB, only without giving it drop/visit mileage. *shrug*

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40 minutes ago, Bow more said:

I have in my hands a TB .....

 

Neither the current holder or the owner responds to messages.

 

Aren't you the current holder?  Don't worry that it isn't accumulating miles. Nothing you can do about it except contact the TBO which you already did. Just move it along as usual.

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59 minutes ago, Max and 99 said:

Aren't you the current holder?  Don't worry that it isn't accumulating miles. Nothing you can do about it except contact the TBO which you already did. Just move it along as usual.

 

I thin Bow more was implying that the physical object is in hand, but it's listed in someone else's possession - Collection. All that can be done is Discover it.  So somehow it's been traveling, but no one can 'drop' it anywhere, only discover it.

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2 hours ago, Bow more said:

I have in my hands a TB that is in a geocacher’s inventory (or collection) and can only be discovered because it is a “collectible”. It has been traveling for 5-6 years in many countries without increasing a single mile of distance and probably confused quite a few people :-). Neither the current holder or the owner responds to messages.

I’d like to know whether the traveling can be normalized in this case.

 

It's easy for Finders to manage a Discover-only TB.  Make a Discover or Note log, tell where you took it from (if you take it), and then where you place it.  Simple.  If these things last 6 years in the wilds like that, I might set mine that way.  B)

 

In your log, mention that it's in a Collection and that it therefore is confusing.  Then place it into a cache and log it.

 

A lot of Geocachers like to click buttons.  Look at the many threads asking what "Collectible" is for, by persons who have no use for the feature, and who are eager to click on it.

 

The setting "Collectible" does nothing to the logs you can make, it merely enables the next step, placing in into a Collection.  If only "Discover" and "Note" are available the item must already be in a Collection.  When the Owner is finished getting it moved it to the Collection, the Owner can (and should) mark it Not Collectible, because he's done moving it.  What happens a lot is that the TB Owner clicks buttons, "Collectible", then drops it into a cache.  Now a Finder clicks buttons "Move To Collection" (The Owner or the Finder can do this).  Neither of them knows what they're doing, and they create a mess.  Mindless clicking because they can, not because the Owner intended that it is to be out of play.  If one doesn't know what "Collectible" is for, do not mess with it.  It's for specific things, and traveling cache-to-cache is not one of the things.

 

Edited by kunarion
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2 hours ago, Bow more said:

I have in my hands a TB that is in a geocacher’s inventory (or collection) and can only be discovered because it is a “collectible”.

It has been traveling for 5-6 years in many countries without increasing a single mile of distance and probably confused quite a few people :-).

Neither the current holder or the owner responds to messages.

I’d like to know whether the traveling can be normalized in this case.

 

The other 2/3rds "collection" doesn't show in her inventory.    Maybe you're thinking of "collectible" as a collection, and that's not the same.

"Collection" wasn't around at the time, and she created an account so we didn't have to scroll through all those trackables just to log a find.  :)

 

If I found a "Discover only" trackable, I'd Discover it, and say where .

If I took it home to go into another cache, I'd simply write which cache on a Write Note when I do.   

There's nothing else to do with it if the owner put their trackable out Discover-only.

Similar to kunarion, we notice a lot of people like to hit buttons n things, and probably just another error.   ;)

 

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3 hours ago, Bow more said:

I have in my hands a TB that is in a geocacher’s inventory (or collection) and can only be discovered because it is a “collectible”. It has been traveling for 5-6 years in many countries without increasing a single mile of distance and probably confused quite a few people :-). Neither the current holder or the owner responds to messages.

I’d like to know whether the traveling can be normalized in this case.

I see a LOT of Discover only TBs!

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Yes, "Collectible" is a setting that merely allows someone to take it 'off the game board' as it were. If a TB is in a collection (regardless of whether it's currently marked collectible) then it can't be dropped or picked up or visited.  So the TB sounds like it's in a user's collection, but it's still out in the wild, so it's only getting physically moved and being discovered while on its travels.

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45 minutes ago, Max and 99 said:

I see a LOT of Discover only TBs!

 

Making a TB decal "Collectible" for a car or T-shirt or dog collar is commonly suggested around The Fora.  "What if people are messin' with my logs, and I need the perfect way to never get messed with!"  And, VIOLA, the response is:  "Mark it Collectible without understanding the implications nor the actual steps, that solves the problem".  ...whoops, they forgot the part about also placing it into a Collection! ...Oh, and the part about then marking it Not Collectible to tidy the loose ends ...aaaand they also forgot the part about putting clear information on the TB page on what Finders should do when they encounter this thing.  Other than that, it's a super plan. B)

 

Edited by kunarion
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Yep, from the beginning [of collections] there should have been a 'macro' sort of option to do all that in one click. At least for TB owners. Force-pull it into your personal collection that can only be discovered (1. Flag as collectible, 2. Move to Collection, 3. Unflag as collectible)

That Collectible flag is a very dangerous option! :P

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3 hours ago, kunarion said:

It's easy for Finders to manage a Discover-only TB.  Make a Discover or Note log, tell where you took it from (if you take it), and then where you place it.  Simple.  If these things last 6 years in the wilds like that, I might set mine that way.  

Well, not that simple, and certainly illogical. If I picked up a TB that I then discovered wasn't supposed to be traveling and I couldn't put in my inventory, I'm afraid I'd think the only logical action for me would be to throw it in a drawer. Maybe take it to an event once in a while for other people to discover. It wouldn't make sense to me for me to put it in a geocache just to annoy and confuse someone else.

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13 minutes ago, dprovan said:

Well, not that simple, and certainly illogical. If I picked up a TB that I then discovered wasn't supposed to be traveling and I couldn't put in my inventory, I'm afraid I'd think the only logical action for me would be to throw it in a drawer. Maybe take it to an event once in a while for other people to discover. It wouldn't make sense to me for me to put it in a geocache just to annoy and confuse someone else.

This is exactly how I feel about it. Actually it IS meant to be traveling but the last retriever accidentally wrote a note instead of dropping it off. - Thank you all for comments.  

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2 hours ago, dprovan said:

Well, not that simple, and certainly illogical. If I picked up a TB that I then discovered wasn't supposed to be traveling and I couldn't put in my inventory, I'm afraid I'd think the only logical action for me would be to throw it in a drawer. Maybe take it to an event once in a while for other people to discover. It wouldn't make sense to me for me to put it in a geocache just to annoy and confuse someone else.


Right.  Everythief has a rationalization for keeping Trackables.  Which is cool with the other thieves.  Super.  :ph34r:

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13 minutes ago, kunarion said:

Right.  Everythief has a rationalization for keeping Trackables.  Which is cool with the other thieves.  Super.  :ph34r:

That's quite an accusation. I don't think I deserve it. Lord knows, I'd rather drop the TB somewhere. I have no interest in keeping it. It would just be a burden on me to keep track of where I put it in case things changed and I could put it back into action.

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1 hour ago, dprovan said:

That's quite an accusation. I don't think I deserve it. Lord knows, I'd rather drop the TB somewhere. I have no interest in keeping it. It would just be a burden on me to keep track of where I put it in case things changed and I could put it back into action.


You deserve it.  I didn’t deserve to have my reply cut up so you could argue with your clip of it.  
 

Maaaybe if it’s obviously a Proxy where there are a bah-zillion floating around, then the logs aren’t important, or the mission isn’t.  But don’t suggest that there are reasons to throw someone’s TB in a drawer, unless you also insist that such reasons are dead wrong.

 

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17 hours ago, dprovan said:

It wouldn't make sense to me for me to put it in a geocache just to annoy and confuse someone else.

Exactly my thoughts. Correctly dealing with travelers is difficult enough for newbies. So I would also be inclined to take out the confusing game piece as long as the owner (which I certainly would try to contact and to educate) does not rectify the situation.

I'm irritated that some here say they often find discover-only TBs in the wild. Thankfully so far this never happened to me.

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1 hour ago, Hynz said:

Exactly my thoughts. Correctly dealing with travelers is difficult enough for newbies. So I would also be inclined to take out the confusing game piece as long as the owner (which I certainly would try to contact and to educate) does not rectify the situation.

 

Would you be inclined to also make a log plainly stating why you are "taking out the confusing game piece"?  Just wondering, because it is not yours to take.

 

This is why we can't have nice things. :mad:

 

 

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2 hours ago, kunarion said:
2 hours ago, Hynz said:

Exactly my thoughts. Correctly dealing with travelers is difficult enough for newbies. So I would also be inclined to take out the confusing game piece as long as the owner (which I certainly would try to contact and to educate) does not rectify the situation.

 

Would you be inclined to also make a log plainly stating why you are "taking out the confusing game piece"?  Just wondering, because it is not yours to take.

 

This is why we can't have nice things. :mad:

Do you really have the impression I or dprovan would take out the TB because we want to pile up stolen TBs or to offend the owner :huh:

Of course would I be upfront in public notes at the TB and in my messages to the owner why I intend to wait before releasing the TB again. If the owner insists that I should release the "malfunctioning" TB I would obey but maybe attaching a note to reduce the confusion for future finder.

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17 minutes ago, Hynz said:

Do you really have the impression I or dprovan would take out the TB because we want to pile up stolen TBs or to offend the owner :huh:

Of course would I be upfront in public notes at the TB and in my messages to the owner why I intend to wait before releasing the TB again. If the owner insists that I should release the "malfunctioning" TB I would obey but maybe attaching a note to reduce the confusion for future finder.

 

It sounds like a sour grapes sticking-it-to-you because you made a mistake on your TB page.  But it's instead a generous, above-board service to the community?  You sure about this?  Because I'm gonna go suggest it in the Suggestion area as a sales banner for the Geocaching Shop.

 

When Geocachers take and keep a TB, it is 110% always framed as "the best thing ever for the whole Geocaching world".  "I'm unilaterally keeping this forever because XXXXX extremely amazingly awesome reason that helps you, yet you would annoy me with your requests to place it?!".  But the actual log stating that, I've never actually seen that log.  Cool.  :cute:

 

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4 hours ago, kunarion said:

Would you be inclined to also make a log plainly stating why you are "taking out the confusing game piece"?  Just wondering, because it is not yours to take.

Huh? Well, of course I'd log what I was doing. I'd also log exactly why I was holding on to it for the owner. Putting in a cache would be nearly as bad as throwing it on the ground. I will log my actions even though I can't accurately reflect the status of the TB in the system. I will make clear that I have the TB so the CO or anyone else can contact me. I will be watching the TB to see if the situation clears up. I have no faith at all that if I drop it in a cache willy-nilly, that the next person to find it will be as conscientious. People have enough trouble logging TBs under normal conditions, so I have very little expectations that the person to find the TB next will have any idea what to do about it. I'd bet dollars to doughnuts that the result would be the TB disappearing entirely without anything logged anywhere about where it is.

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You forget now that the TB I am talking about is marked as collectible and that is one of the two reasons causing the problem (it can not be grabbed). I think it is a lesser sin to keep a collectible in spite of the fact that it is in somebody's inventory (or collection, I do not know the difference). 

I really do not collect TB's, so I think it is a good idea to add a note with it when I place it somewhere.

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6 hours ago, Bow more said:

You forget now that the TB I am talking about is marked as collectible and that is one of the two reasons causing the problem (it can not be grabbed). I think it is a lesser sin to keep a collectible in spite of the fact that it is in somebody's inventory (or collection, I do not know the difference). 

I really do not collect TB's, so I think it is a good idea to add a note with it when I place it somewhere.

 

Add your note as soon as possible.  You can make a Discover Log on a Discover-only TB.  Mention that it's hard to log when it's in a Collection (you could even provide a link to the Help section in case the guy doesn't know how to place it back into Inventory).  It's the Owner that fixes the "Collection", moves it in or out on his whim, it's his property.  He could even "Lock" it to disallow all logs. Place it into a cache anyway, or leave it there, and make a log type that's available.

 

Without specifics, we can only provide general replies about such a TB. Place it and Finders can "Discover" it.

 

But I'd be hard-pressed to come up with any rationalization to "keep" a TB, especially one that's been out there for 5-6 years.  Finders don't get to unilaterally keep any TB ever.  The fact that TPTB don't step in and confirm this fact demonstrates what's wrong:  TBs are advertised and sold as one's property, yet treated by TBTP and Geocachers as "no value" things for anyone to keep.

 

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On ‎1‎/‎29‎/‎2020 at 9:55 AM, thebruce0 said:

How would you define "normalized"?  It belongs to the owner, so there's really not much you can do except treat it like a TB, only without giving it drop/visit mileage. *shrug*

 

+1

 

I cache with offline data, and don't always take a TB (who wants to tackle the confusion of a TB that you discover is, say, in someone's Collection or whatever! :ph34r:).  I make a note of the Tracking Code, and at least Discover it when I create my logs.  And I found one that required "No Discover Logs".  So I made my logs on other TBs instead, no Discover, no log at all on that one (of course, no "keeping it").  Plus the person who placed it had not logged it into that cache. 

 

TB Owners probably get fed up with a mass of certain log types which they attempt to mitigate with settings. Some of the strange settings on TBs are caused by people who like to click buttons and not ask what the buttons do.  But the majority of the problems are caused directly by Groundspeak and trickle down.  The uncontested insistence by Geocachers that "TB's are community property and I'd probably just keep them to help people!".  The first line in the form when activating a TB "Would You Like To Click The Collectible Button?  Because we think you would love to click that!"  …  and oh so much more.   It's amazing that anyone finds a TB in the wild after 5-6 years today.

 

 

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1 hour ago, kunarion said:

...But I'd be hard-pressed to come up with any rationalization to "keep" a TB, especially one that's been out there for 5-6 years.  Finders don't get to unilaterally keep any TB ever.  The fact that TPTB don't step in and confirm this fact demonstrates what's wrong:  TBs are advertised as one's property, yet treated by TBTP and Geocachers as "no value" things for anyone to keep.

 

 

Yep.   in the Help Center , under  "Don’t keep other geocacher’s  trackables"

"Selling or keeping a trackable which does not belong to you is frowned upon. Only do this after you receive explicit permission from the trackable owner."

 

Frowned upon ?  Really ?

There should never be a time that it's okay for someone to "own" your property. That's what "adoption" is for...

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On ‎1‎/‎29‎/‎2020 at 1:46 PM, thebruce0 said:

Yep, from the beginning [of collections] there should have been a 'macro' sort of option to do all that in one click. At least for TB owners. Force-pull it into your personal collection that can only be discovered (1. Flag as collectible, 2. Move to Collection, 3. Unflag as collectible)

That Collectible flag is a very dangerous option! :P

 

"The Collection" was a catch-all feature to address several issues, mainly the problems of individuals each with a mass of owned Trackables they needed to manage.  If it's to be picked up from a cache and dropped at another forevermore, "Collectible" is not the thing. If you're doing it to stop people from messin' with you, you're doing it wrong.  Go ask HQ to mitigate that.  If HQ isn't helping, let me know, and I'll go ask, too.  If you're messin' with people due to the way a TB is set up, I stand opposed to that activity.  If HQ was wise, it would be taking that "messin' with ya" stuff very seriously.

 

If you've gotten your TB all bunched up, put a little work into unscrambling it.  Make it so people can log it without encountering any strangeness.

 

But the "Collectible" switch is pretty cool if you're loaning your Geocoin to a Finder on the other side of the planet and your schedules never jibe.  You set it "Collectible", he places it into his Collection on his schedule.  "Collectible/Collection" being designed for honest people to show a paper trail of who is holding what and why (and no good for passive-aggressive types who are crying for help, which actually is not what Geocaching is ideal for).  Whoever designed The Collection thought of everything, except for one thing -- everyone who loves to click buttons.  OK, two things -- nobody in control of the Help Center is able to fully explain the system and all its moving parts.  Um, three things -- They put that convenient "Collectible?" button as the first box when activating any TB without the additional text "If unsure, do not click it."  :cute:

 

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If collectible came with a permission option - either anyone who has it while it's collectible can move it to there collection, or only a certain user or users would be permitted to - that would be a nice compromise. And another option to click would either make it less enticing to do something unknowingly (click-done vs click-click...click?..*read*..click..verify..etc) would be helpful. If "Colelctible" has that much significance, and really isn't used nearly as much as other options, I certainly wouldn't mind a few extra important and useful clicks, especially if there's a batch function if I have loads of TBs I want to either take off the game board except for display for others to discover, or to travel until it reaches someone who can 'collect' it, so it can't finally be adopted out, perhaps.

 

 

But IMO, it's the "make this item collectible" without the "move to collection" tied to it that makes things confusing for people. How many people have a legitimate reason to send out a publicly collectible trackable item?  In the grand scheme, I would guess that the vaaast majority of "make item collectible" clicks are as a step 1 to moving it to a personal collection and making it not collectible again.  Provide one button that does those 3 steps, solve many mistakes and confusions.

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2 hours ago, thebruce0 said:

If collectible came with a permission option - either anyone who has it while it's collectible can move it to there collection, or only a certain user or users would be permitted to - that would be a nice compromise. And another option to click would either make it less enticing to do something unknowingly (click-done vs click-click...click?..*read*..click..verify..etc) would be helpful. If "Colelctible" has that much significance, and really isn't used nearly as much as other options, I certainly wouldn't mind a few extra important and useful clicks, especially if there's a batch function if I have loads of TBs I want to either take off the game board except for display for others to discover, or to travel until it reaches someone who can 'collect' it, so it can't finally be adopted out, perhaps.

 

I'd rather have functions easy to perform, and people to not mess with "Collectible".  But it sure seems inviting.  The issues come up frequently.  If it is a click to go get ediucated on the ins and outs of "Collectible", that's cool (again, do TPTB  even know?  It's not set up as if they know).  If adding it to a Collection becomes more clear or streamlined or useful, TOs will end up with Collectibles in their Collection that they now place into caches.  See the first Post above for how well that works out. :cute:

 

 

2 hours ago, thebruce0 said:

But IMO, it's the "make this item collectible" without the "move to collection" tied to it that makes things confusing for people. How many people have a legitimate reason to send out a publicly collectible trackable item?  In the grand scheme, I would guess that the vaaast majority of "make item collectible" clicks are as a step 1 to moving it to a personal collection and making it not collectible again.  Provide one button that does those 3 steps, solve many mistakes and confusions.

 

The #1 suggestion around here is "Simply mark your TB 'Collectible', that prevents people from doing X".  The premise being that if I click a software button, it stops people from messin' with me.  Later, TOs and Finders arrive to ask what went wrong with that flawless idea.  And adding extra clicks only add extra clicks.  Those glorious clicks.  I luv that sound.  Click-click-click.  I'm sure whatever I just did won't ever confuse anybody.  B)

 

My theory (seems pretty well proven) is that playing with "Collectible/Collection" is what creates the issues.  You can Do X to stop people from "Grabbing Your Car TB, and only allow Discovers", and now you get a buhzillion "Discovers".  You read in this thread that, when takers become "confused", your traveling TB can end up confiscated to "help you".  It kinda made things worse.

 

 

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14 minutes ago, kunarion said:

The #1 suggestion around here is "Simply mark your TB 'Collectible', that prevents people from doing X".  Later, TOs and Finders arrive to ask what went wrong with that flawless idea.  And adding extra clicks only add extra clicks.

 

That's what I mean, in this case one click won't do anything. You need to be sure of what you're clicking. You can't get past it.  If we can have "Are you sure?" extra-click verification, it would be more informative to actually have people choose what they're doing with the "Mark as Collectible" click. If lack of understanding is the biggest issue with one-click mistakes, then take away the one-click functionality. :P

 

 

14 minutes ago, kunarion said:

I'd rather have functions easy to perform, and people to not mess with "Collectible".

 

Right, and the problem is what the primary function of "Mark as collectible" is. And I think there's much more mistaken use than there is proper use - of that function alone. Proper use is almost always combined with an additional function - and I'd guess the most common function is that three-step (three+ click! :o ) "I want to make this private in my own collection" process.  And a distant second might be "leave it marked collectible so someone else I know can add it to their collection".

 

Basically, the amount of times someone only ever properly wants to mark a TB as collectible and nothing else is slim to none, I'd wager, but that I think is the biggest area of mistaken use.

So why not provide the functionality of doing the multiple-click functions in one, but also requiring more than one misunderstood click in order to actually make a mistake?  Educate. And yet keep the simple one-click functionality for most common, least confusing uses :)

 

I would love a one-click "Make this my private non-traveling item" that performs all three "clicks" in one. ;) (ETA: And the inverse, "Make this my personal traveling inventory item" that no one can 'collect' mistakenly)

(and then if anyone does do a 'one-click mistake', at least now there won't be confusion about someone else taking a TB for their own collection when they had no idea that was possible because they didn't know what 'mark as collectible' meant; and the TB was actually already privately in their own collection, by mistake)

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19 minutes ago, thebruce0 said:

So why not provide the functionality of doing the multiple-click functions in one, but also requiring more than one misunderstood click in order to actually make a mistake?  Educate. And yet keep the simple one-click functionality for most common, least confusing uses :))

 

If you look through the TB and Geocoin threads, there are tons of "I want to click-click-click and how do I do that!"  I and others have tried til we're blue in the nose to "Educate".  Don't touch any "Collectible/Collection" at all.  It's followed by the conclusion of "OK, I did the click-click-click, thanks!"

 

They are so determined, that any attempt to save people from themselves will make the useful part of "The Collection" more frustrating for people who need it -- people with a lot of activated coins that they like to show.  There are so few of those people, it makes me wonder why "Make This Collectible?" is the first button when activating any Trackable.  Who swung that plan?

 

It would be less of an issue without people on the other end of the deal who "get confused".  If you find any Trackable and you are "confused", promptly place it into a cache and log something in some way (no Tracking Code seen, but otherwise a Reference Number and photos are OK).  Never keep any Trackable due to Confusion.  It's got a page and Tracking Code, it's Trackable, it's good.  I'm trying to do that Education as well.  If you know how to get that across, go ahead. B)

 

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3 minutes ago, kunarion said:

 … They are so determined that any attempt to save people from themselves will make the useful part of "The Collection" more frustrating for people who need it -- people with a lot of activated coins that they like to show. 

There are so few of those people, it makes me wonder why "Make This Collectible?" is the first button when activating any Trackable. 

Who swung that plan?

 

Yeah…    Maybe someone feels that, as they get lost, folks will just buy another...     :)

Our older trackables say "The owner hasn't set their collectible preference." and they were never messed with.

The others say "This is not collectible. " , with the same. 

It was only after the other 2/3rds moved her coins to a collection that she's had issues.

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37 minutes ago, kunarion said:

If you look through the TB and Geocoin threads, there are tons of "I want to click-click-click and how do I do that!"  I and others have tried til we're blue in the nose to "Educate".  Don't touch any "Collectible/Collection" at all.  It's followed by the conclusion of "OK, I did the click-click-click, thanks!"

 

Honestly, I'm not sure if you're disagreeing or extending... I'm suggesting a one-click highly common function. Not more click - except in the case that more clicks is necessarily clearer and attempts to remove the "I have no idea what this one-click does but I think I'm done".

 

What's the most common used of the "Make this item collectible" toggle?

I think it's part 1 of 3 of moving a TB to the owner's personal collection and locking it in there for discovery.

My personal moving TBs are marked not collectible and in my inventory so it can be moved.

My publicly traveling TBs are not marked collectible and just out in the wild.

The problem are those who mark something collectible not realizing that that function alone is almost certainly not what they want. So in THOSE cases, an additional click or two to show them "Are you doing this? Or this?" accomplishes multiple things.  For those of us who don't want more clicks, a one-click option to do what we want which otherwise takes three clicks is a huge benefit. And if someone doesn't know what the new one-click option really does, at least that function doesn't result in TBs going into random people's collections.

 

All I'm saying it, for extremely common functions that take multiple clicks, let's make it one button click.

For 'incomplete' functions that are often misunderstood and misused, provide another step that makes it clear.

Guaranteed solution? Of course not. But as helpful as an "Are you sure?" extra-click prompt to get people to think about what they're doing instead of blind clicks.

 

And for anyone who may need to do an extra click for some task, at least it's not a pointless extra click.  It's just a slightly different balance in UI design. It's somewhere between 'everything is a macro' (pain for the advanced user and customizing) and 'provide every raw option to mix and match' (pain for the novice or streamlined user who just wants to do something and have it work).

Right now we're somewhere in the middle where the options available are causing a whole lot of confusion and mistakes. :P So it there a better UI structure to retain usability, increase understandability, and still be speedy?

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2 hours ago, thebruce0 said:

Honestly, I'm not sure if you're disagreeing or extending... I'm suggesting a one-click highly common function. Not more click - except in the case that more clicks is necessarily clearer and attempts to remove the "I have no idea what this one-click does but I think I'm done".

 

Well, yes and no. :cute:  I agree it could be easier or have a better flow to one's goal.  But even if you make it foolproof, then you get tougher fools the adjustments to the process never end.  Because the components not being streamlined isn't the problem. There's a disconnect with the goal itself.  People decide they are missing out on whatever the "Collectible" thing is.  Whatever it is, it's mysterious, cool, elite.  Or someone's making wrong logs on their TB, and that's a problem and this fun setting "solves their problem".  Whatever the Click process is, it doesn't change the misconceptions.  And the Taker becomes confused and we're back to the Original Post again.

 

That's because the real problem isn't "Collectible/Collection".  As with other selections, all that does is help an Owner organize Trackables.  It's a setting for the database.  You can pick up a Trackable and place it into a cache, and make whatever logs you can, and, as we see, it can travel while "In A Collection" for years.  You will find a lot of strangely configured TBs, especially incorrect or delayed logs related to taking and placing a TB that is not Collectible at all, yet confusing to a taker.  In any case, Collectible or whatever, if it's confusing to you:  Leave it there.  If you take it, place it into a suitable cache promptly.  Type a log.  It's fine to help unscramble the selections, that's best left to the Trackable Owner to do.  If you instead keep it, you're doing it wrong.

 

Edited by kunarion

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1 minute ago, kunarion said:

Well, yes and no.  I agree it could be easier or have a better flow to one's goal.  But there's a disconnect with the goal itself.  People decide they are missing out on whatever the "Collectible" thing is.  Whatever it is, it's mysterious, cool, elite.

 

Maybe I'm dense but I'm not getting the problem here, other than an anecdotal "someone thinks it's mysterious, cool, elite" and chooses to willingly do something they know nothing about - as opposed to mistakenly thinking it does something that it doesn't (in completion) do. (See below)

 

1 minute ago, kunarion said:

Someone's making wrong logs on their TB, and that's a problem and this "solves their problem".  So whatever the process is, it doesn't change that misconception.  And the Taker is confused and we're back to the Original Post again.

 

..what 'solves their problem'? My suggestion? The old way? Do you mean if my suggestion were implemented (one-click move to private collection and lock down) that - if someone's making wrong logs on their TB, this wouldn't somehow "solve their problem"? Or do you mean the multi-click explanatory process that occurs after they simply click "Make it collectible" and now have to confirm with a "Do this (and here's what can happen)" or "Cancel"?

 

 

Okay rolling back, I kind of see the various settings and effects in this sort of way // context, my owned TB:
(note, TBs are always discoverable, so that's not mentioned below)

  • My inventory, not collectible = held in hand, it travels, it's dippable, retrievable, can be passed to someone else;
  • My inventory, collectible = as above, but I can drop it into my collection sack (or if someone else grabs it, or finds it out there, they can drop it in their collection sack)
  • In my collection, collectible = in my collection sack but the sash isn't tightened (can't be grabbed, or travel); I can move it in and out of my hand easily for travel tracking purposes (also: If it's not my TB, the owner can still change its collectible status)
  • In my collection, not collectible = in my collection sack as above, but the sash is pulled tight; no one can grab it, it's protected in my sack (also: If it's not my TB, I can never have it in my collection if it's not collectible)
  • Someone else's collection, collectible = in their collection sack (can't be grabbed or travel), because they're allowed to keep it
    (but as it's owner I can force it to be marked as not collectible though; and if they want it to track travels they have to take it out of their collection sack)
  • Someone else's collection, not collectible = not possible: it's immediately popped out of their collection sack, into their hand/inventory, then see above (because hey, it's not collectible!)
    (and yeah I just tested and verified this functionality)

 

So, let's say I activate a geocoin I don't intend to travel but just have for others to discover; it starts in my inventory not collectible.

'Make it collectible' is one of the first options I see - along with 'Move to my private collection' (the one-click lockdown). The latter makes much more sense if that's what I want to do.

And if I'm still confused, and I still just click to 'Make it collectible', say I'm now given one extra confirmation step - to choose between 1] "...And leave it public (anyone can keep it)", 2] "...And move to my collection for discovery only", or 3] "Cancel, I don't want to change anything" -- before any change is made to the TB.

#1 only sets the collectible flag.  #2 makes it collectible, moves to my collection, then sets it not collectible. #3 leaves it as is (in my inventory not collectible, eg).


It's like, instead of giving people all the raw options (or alternatively, providing them in an advanced dialog), provide real world examples of what can be done with trackable items having different settings.  The raw settings form a conceptually complicated grid of possible options and that is what confuses people who don't know what the raw options actually do or change (especially that collectible flag which is highly dependent on the TB's listed location).

For all users, having one-click macros to set the most common settings, and having raw options for advanced users, would be more user-friendly, or at least a balance of user-friendly and understandable. For beginners, having real-world examples would be more understandable in this case, IMO.  But have just one or the other and you make the system a frustrating for one of those people groups... And right now it's the beginners (mainly) who make mistakes with the settings by not understand what they do; yet even knowledgeable users can still make those mistakes.

 

 

In the case of the OP, the TB in question is currently in "Someone else's collection, collectible" - so it can't be grabbed by anyone, doesn't travel, and it's basically locked in their possession that way because its owner has said "Yep, it's collectible, so it's that user's now". And it's confusing purely because of the awkward combination of being in a non-owner's possession, marked collectible, and in their collection sack, as if it's their own but it's not, because it technically belongs to someone else.  I don't think any UI layout of raw options will properly explain the situation in an easily understandable way.

But depict why it happened the way it did in a real-world illustration?

 

The owner can fix this by marking it NOT collectible, then the OP user would be able to "Grab" it from their hand/inventory because that person can't keep it, thus properly recording that the physical item is in their hand. And it could continue to travel as a normal TB. If indeed that's what the owner intended and the collection flag was all a big mistake.

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35 minutes ago, thebruce0 said:

..what 'solves their problem'? My suggestion? The old way? Do you mean if my suggestion were implemented (one-click move to private collection and lock down) that - if someone's making wrong logs on their TB, this wouldn't somehow "solve their problem"? Or do you mean the multi-click explanatory process that occurs after they simply click "Make it collectible" and now have to confirm with a "Do this (and here's what can happen)" or "Cancel"?

 

I only meant that there's an impression (a "solution" commonly posted around here) that marking a TB "Collectible" solves the problem of "people messin' with ya" by people making annoying logs. Or even that placing it into one's Collection solves the problem of "people messin' with ya".  The people are very determined people.

 

If it's placed into a Collection, it behaves as if it's out of play, because that's what it's ideal for: Collectibles in a Collection.  I don't remember ever seeing Geocoin collectors with massive coins to manage having any issue with "Collectible/Collection" being confusing.  It's made for them, and seems to work fine for them.

 

I also meant that if I could convince people to stop clicking anywhere near "Collectible/Collection", my life would be complete.  The ease or automation won't matter, because people who are not power Geocoiners would stay away from that rabbit hole.

 

I don't even know what the deal is with the OP's confusing TB.  There were never any specifics which could have cleared up the whole thing days ago.  Even having all the info, it's gonna be tricky, because who knows why it is set that way.  There may be a perfectly good reason.  Can't tell from here.  My ESP is very bad this week.  :blink:

 

Edited by kunarion

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41 minutes ago, kunarion said:

I don't even know what the deal is with the OP's confusing TB.  There were never any specifics which could have cleared up the whole thing days ago.  Even having all the info, it's gonna be tricky, because who knows why it is set that way.  There may be a perfectly good reason.  Can't tell from here.  My ESP is very bad this week.  

 

Well, based on the quote:

On 1/29/2020 at 9:29 AM, Bow more said:

I have in my hands a TB that is in a geocacher’s inventory (or collection) and can only be discovered because it is a “collectible”. ... Neither the current holder or the owner responds to messages.

 

1. The TB is physically in their hands which is not their own.

2. The TB is listed in another user's collection (inventory is not possible, given...)

3. The TB can only be discovered

So it's consistent with being in the "Someone else's collection, and collectible" category, per my bullet points above.

Thus if the CO were to mark it NOT collectible (bumping into the user's inventory), Bow_more would be able to grab it from that user's inventory. (that's based on my testing of the functionally today)

 

Again, all of this intricate complex interaction is ridiculous to attempt to explain merely by providing the raw options, and that's why it's so confusing. My suggestion is to work the other way - apply settings based on real-world samples of what can be done in each case (and move raw management to an advanced administrative form)

 

(but to be clear, I do not mean enormous single-page white-space-padded mobile-friendly pictographic web pages to accomplish single actions that aren't optimized for desktop use :P)

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18 minutes ago, thebruce0 said:

 

Well, based on the quote:

 

1. The TB is physically in their hands which is not their own.

2. The TB is listed in another user's collection (inventory is not possible, given...)

3. The TB can only be discovered

So it's consistent with being in the "Someone else's collection, and collectible" category, per my bullet points above.

Thus if the CO were to mark it NOT collectible (bumping into the user's inventory), Bow_more would be able to grab it from that user's inventory. (that's based on my testing of the functionally today)

 

Again, all of this intricate complex interaction is ridiculous to attempt to explain merely by providing the raw options, and that's why it's so confusing. My suggestion is to work the other way - apply settings based on real-world samples of what can be done in each case (and move raw management to an advanced administrative form)

 

(but to be clear, I do not mean enormous single-page white-space-padded mobile-friendly pictographic web pages to accomplish single actions that aren't optimized for desktop use :P)


I mean there’s no way to know how it became set that way or ended up in a cache that way.  I’d need to know the Tracking Code to figure it out.  
 

Your ideas are cool.  It would be cool if an App could do some of the work.  Ever try to make a log on a TB page after you drop it?  A split screen for the Cache log and the TB log might be awesome!  In the OP’s case, the option to make a Note would be OK.  “This item is not set up to allow Drop logs.  You can type this Note instead.”

 

Until then:

If one is confused, place it into a cache anyway.  Make some kind of log.  
 

 

Edited by kunarion

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15 hours ago, kunarion said:

I mean there’s no way to know how it became set that way or ended up in a cache that way.

True, but that's a historic issue. The resolution is based on inference from the current status.

 

15 hours ago, kunarion said:

Ever try to make a log on a TB page after you drop it? A split screen for the Cache log and the TB log might be awesome!

I use Cachly (now) to do all my TB stuff. Occasionally the web. But if I pick up or drop a TB and I'm logging by draft, not live, I typically note the code in my field note. But I might postpone the TB logging until I log the caches, or I may manually log the TB. Either way, I've never really had an issue with logging TBs by mobile - as long as I've got the TB code recorded somewhere :)

 

15 hours ago, kunarion said:

In the OP’s case, the option to make a Note would be OK.  “This item is not set up to allow Drop logs.  You can type this Note instead.”

Until then:

If one is confused, place it into a cache anyway.  Make some kind of log.  

 

Yeah there's no technical way to track locations when it's in anyone's collections. Only describing its location in the note/discover log, unfortunately. /Me wonders if the TB's owner is curious why it's not getting any miles - or if its settings were actually intended that way (discovery and physical travel only).  But most of me think it's a mistake, and the owner should just unmark it as Collectible so the listing can move and collect mileage.

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32 minutes ago, thebruce0 said:

True, but that's a historic issue. The resolution is based on inference from the current status.


I meant that it may have been in a Collection all along, and never intended to travel.  I really cannot guess the TB, I’d have to know exactly which one it is.  By Reference Number or something.

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4 hours ago, kunarion said:

I meant that it may have been in a Collection all along, and never intended to travel.

But it's not in the collection of the owner, meaning the owner must have set it to collectible and let it go to the public so it could be put someone else's collection. It may not have been intended to travel statistically, but the listing was grabbed by the current user and placed into their collection while the physical item was traveling the world, and is now in the OP's hands.

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22 minutes ago, thebruce0 said:

But it's not in the collection of the owner, meaning the owner must have set it to collectible and let it go to the public so it could be put someone else's collection. It may not have been intended to travel statistically, but the listing was grabbed by the current user and placed into their collection while the physical item was traveling the world, and is now in the OP's hands.


If you don’t mind, contact the owner.  Just to be sure it’s all in order.  We’ve just finished a different thread where the real story was different from the original story.

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4 minutes ago, kunarion said:

If you don’t mind, contact the owner.

Oh *I* don't want to. But yes, that is the only course of action. All this is based on what the OP has described about the physical item in hand, and how it's listed on the website.  Owner's intent? Who knows. No way to know except by asking.

 

But this has been a good exercise in seeing what the various options do in a certain context.

A trackable item is in the collection of someone who doesn't own it, and it hasn't been collecting travel waypoints because it's locked from being dipped or grabbed - yet the physical item is in another person's possession having traveled nonetheless. Thus the confusion. So:

A. The user who has it in their collection can either pull it out into their inventory and let it be grabbed by the trackable holder.

B. The owner can mark it 'not collectible' to force it into the user's inventory, and it can be grabbed by the trackable holder.

C. The owner can do nothing because it's doing exactly what they intended it to do :P

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6 minutes ago, thebruce0 said:

Oh *I* don't want to. But yes, that is the only course of action. All this is based on what the OP has described about the physical item in hand, and how it's listed on the website.  Owner's intent? Who knows. No way to know except by asking.


Then I’ll ask the owner.  What’s the reference number of the Trackable item?

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After reading today's blog post on Trackables, It's always trackable season

 

It got me wondering, since I've never seen it before, how often do geocachers set their trackable to collectible so that the finder can collect it? It is still owned by someone else, so what's the point? I ask because I really don't understand.

 

Relative excerpt:

 

Collectible

Trackable owners can choose to set their trackables as “Collectible” or “Not Collectible.” “Collectible” may mean that the owner has decided to keep it in their personal collection or, if you find it in a cache, that they are okay with you keeping the item and placing it in your own collection. “Not collectible” indicates that the item should continue to travel. The trackable’s page will state the owner’s preference. If the page indicates that the owner has not set their collectible preference, you should assume that the item is not collectible.

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5 minutes ago, Max and 99 said:

After reading today's blog post on Trackables, It's always trackable season

It got me wondering, since I've never seen it before, how often do geocachers set their trackable to collectible so that the finder can collect it? It is still owned by someone else, so what's the point? I ask because I really don't understand.

 

Relative excerpt:

Collectible

Trackable owners can choose to set their trackables as “Collectible” or “Not Collectible.” “Collectible” may mean that the owner has decided to keep it in their personal collection or, if you find it in a cache, that they are okay with you keeping the item and placing it in your own collection. “Not collectible” indicates that the item should continue to travel. The trackable’s page will state the owner’s preference. If the page indicates that the owner has not set their collectible preference, you should assume that the item is not collectible.

Bolding mine...

My issue with this is the word "may".    It should never mean "there's a chance someone can take".  Sheesh...

Similar to " Selling or keeping a trackable which does not belong to you is frowned upon", "may" to a person who can no longer get hold of a TO thinks it just might be okay ... now.

 

We don't know of a single person that hopes someone takes their trackable that's moving cache-to-cache.

We do know a couple that would like someone to adopt a trackable, and that's worded as such on the trackable's page.

 

 Our older trackables never had a "preference" set,  as this collectible failure wasn't an issue then.

Lately, they all say "not collectible"...

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5 hours ago, Max and 99 said:

It got me wondering, since I've never seen it before, how often do geocachers set their trackable to collectible so that the finder can collect it? It is still owned by someone else, so what's the point? I ask because I really don't understand.

I've only been caching 10 years, so whatever the idea behind "collectible" was, it already made no sense when I started. For the first few years, the only reason I knew about it is that you used to have to set your TB's "collectible" status, otherwise it would be in a "not set" state which was, essentially, collectible. If you didn't set it, people could stick it in the inventory and take it off the playing field, so victims would post here once in a while. As cerberus1 says, no TB owner ever wanted that to happen, but it was the system default. GS changed it a few years ago so TBs were automatically set to "not collectible", and now it comes up much less often, only in a case like this where, apparently, a TB was accidentally set to be collectible.

 

I keep hoping that the original implementer will come out of the woodwork and explain what the original idea was. My guess is that GS thought there would be a much bigger market for trading TB between individuals, outside geocaches. Maybe they were hoping to emulate the pin trading phenomenon at Disney parks. That never happened, but for some reason they're hanging onto a feature that no one uses because no one has any idea what it's good for.

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On 1/30/2020 at 4:53 AM, Max and 99 said:

I see a LOT of Discover only TBs!

I have only seen one and I was annoyed by it and dropped it off as soon as I could. Next time I find one of those I probably won't bother discovering it. Just drop it off into the next cache; any cache, without adding my name to the list.

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What gets me though is that you adopt a trackable, then move it to your collection. What situation would warrant a TB owned by A being allowed to be moved to B's collection while still owned by A?

I recently had that similar mistake - mailed a custom TB to a friend, they got it and I adopted it to them - forgetting it was still in my collection. Of course they couldn't post a grab log, and by adopting it they thought they did have it in their possession. I wondered why it was still in any of my TB listings, before I realized the mistake. So I moved it to my inventory and let him know to grab it.

It's an odd, and very rare, at best, circumstance that collectible should be applicable to anyone but the TB's owner (since adopting would move owner as needed) :huh:

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Posted (edited)
24 minutes ago, thebruce0 said:

What gets me though is that you adopt a trackable, then move it to your collection. What situation would warrant a TB owned by A being allowed to be moved to B's collection while still owned by A?

I recently had that similar mistake - mailed a custom TB to a friend, they got it and I adopted it to them - forgetting it was still in my collection. Of course they couldn't post a grab log, and by adopting it they thought they did have it in their possession. I wondered why it was still in any of my TB listings, before I realized the mistake. So I moved it to my inventory and let him know to grab it.

It's an odd, and very rare, at best, circumstance that collectible should be applicable to anyone but the TB's owner (since adopting would move owner as needed) :huh:

 

It's rare for sure.  But what should happen if someone feels the need to keep my coin, is it shouldn't simply vanish, there should be an above-board record of who holds it and why.  And there is.  I can maintain ownership, yet allow it to be in someone's "Collection", on loan.  That's what "Collectible" could be used for.  It's one step in a well thought out process, just in case someone needs to do that.  This isn't the only way it can be used, but it's available. 

 

My Geocoin is the gold one in a minted set.  It's mine and I plan to continue ownership.  Bob has the other three rare coins in his Collection, but not gold to complete the set.  He lives on the other side of the world, and has found my coin in a cache.  Our schedules don't jive.  So I mark it "Collectible" in preparation for Bob logging it into his account's Collection.  He can go to various Events with the complete set, everyone knows who owns what and that Bob has it with my permission.  At any point, maybe after these Events, I may contact Bob to remove the coin from his Collection, and to place it into a cache to continue its travels.

 

Everyone needs to know what they're doing.  They need to be honest about what they take and log everything properly.  They need to ask and follow instructions if there's a problem.  They need to read up on what various functions are actually for, and, for example, they need to stop just clicking buttons.  Nobody can manage any of that, so, yeah, it's rare. B)

 

Edited by kunarion

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1 hour ago, kunarion said:

My Geocoin is the gold one in a minted set.  It's mine and I plan to continue ownership.  Bob has the other three rare coins in his Collection, but not gold to complete the set.  He lives on the other side of the world, and has found my coin in a cache.  Our schedules don't jive.  So I mark it "Collectible" in preparation for Bob logging it into his account's Collection.  He can go to various Events with the complete set, everyone knows who owns what and that Bob has it with my permission.  At any point, maybe after these Events, I may contact Bob to remove the coin from his Collection, and to place it into a cache to continue its travels.

Thanks! I think I understand. Would it be correct to say that the only advantage of Bob being able to put it in his collection over Bob just physically taking your coin to the event without it being in his collection is that no one logging the coin can accidentally tell the system it was grabbed away from Bob?

 

1 hour ago, kunarion said:

Everyone needs to know what they're doing. 

Aye, there's the rub. Even now that I've seen your logical example, I'm not sure I could recognize a similar case where it should be used, or be able to use it properly if I did. But it's good to know someone knows what they're doing!

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, dprovan said:

Thanks! I think I understand. Would it be correct to say that the only advantage of Bob being able to put it in his collection over Bob just physically taking your coin to the event without it being in his collection is that no one logging the coin can accidentally tell the system it was grabbed away from Bob?


Yes!  That’s a good point.  It’s then out of play, just like the rest of Bob’s Collection.
 

The whole Collection thing seems designed mainly for people with a ton of activated and coveted Geocoins.  It’s above my pay grade.  :cute:
 

 

Edited by kunarion

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