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An old hidden container turned into an old geocache


CheekyBrit
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2 hours ago, funkymunkyzone said:
4 hours ago, barefootjeff said:

Okay, I'll bite. My own feeling in a situation like the OP described is that the hidden date ought to be the date he decided it was going to be a geocache.

Thanks BFJ, to be clear, it wasnt bait. I understand your reasoning, but I disagree- it is simply "hidden date" not "what date the owner of this hidden object decided it should be a geocache".

 

Similarly, it's Name (not Cache Name), Difficulty (not Cache Difficulty), Terrain (not Cache Terrain), and so on.  I think that the Date Placed is the date the Cache was placed, and to my mind, it's not actually a Cache until it's thought of as a cache and stocked as a cache (specifically with a a logbook).  If the logbook has only just been added, I'd say that is the date the cache was placed.  (That said, I love the idea of reusing the time capsule and telling the tale.)

 

Now what about when an old Letterbox - something that is, by any definition, a cache - is cross-listed on the Geocaching website?  There, the original hide date would make perfect sense, but presumably would not be allowed.

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13 hours ago, funkymunkyzone said:

 

The name of the hidden date field, *literally* is hidden date.

 

I would love to hear a solid reason why, for example, 1995 is not a "reasonable" hidden date, if that is indeed when it was hidden.

A solid reason:

- does *not* involve people getting upset because their stats might get messed up, because this suddenly appears on the website.

- is not that it doesn't need to be accurate, or it's not important (that's not a reason for it to be purposefully inaccurate)

 

As a purely technical matter, neither the CSP nor the edit page will accept 1995.  Used to be able to back date to 1 Jan 1900. Now it's 1 Jan 2000.  (Although someone here said it's now limited to May 2000.)

Back dating is tedious, so I'm not going to try. In any case, you're not going get a  placed date further back than Jan or May 2000 :-)

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On 1/27/2020 at 7:31 PM, CheekyBrit said:

While on holiday as a kid, some friends and I hid an ammo can container as a sort of time capsule. This was before any of us knew geocaching existed. Looking back to it, this container is set up just like a geocache since there is a half blank notebook in there that would function as a log, and a bit of SWAG from our childhood (so it's mostly junk kids didn't mind leaving behind).

 

What are your thoughts on turning this into a geocache and using our original hide date as the hidden date? That would make it one of the oldest caches in the county.

 

Not every box in the wilds is a geocache.  So, no, I would not use the date the box was placed.  Tell the story on the page, sure.  But use the date you went back to check on its condition and got accurate coordinates as the date it went from being a box in the wilderness to a geocache.

 

On 1/28/2020 at 8:12 PM, CheekyBrit said:

I found a mountainous geocache this summer that had a ton of written names that are nowhere to be found on geocaching.com or similar websites. It's like a few hikers found it and joined it.

 

Nice.  Sounds like a trail register or summit register.  I found a few of those before geocaching, like a rusty coffee can on top of Mount Ballard near Bisbee, Arizona.  (These days, not far from one of our earthcaches, as it turns out.)  Some have since been listed as geocaches.

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On 1/28/2020 at 2:24 AM, Max and 99 said:

I think I'll go looking for a remote hiding spot this week and place a container. I'm going to wait at least 5 years before I submit the listing. When 5 years have passed, I'll finally create a page, submit the cache with the original date, and then sit back and watch everyone race to get a FTF on a cache that no one has found in FIVE years! What a claim that will be! 

 

One here, known for awesome, unique spots (but carpy containers :D)  hides caches while deer hunting, or when at work.

They may sit for years before he decides to place them.  Not even started a cache page.   I have two ammo cans hidden out a few years now too.  

Not that unusual.  What is unusual is claiming to place a "geocache" before the hobby was created.

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6 hours ago, funkymunkyzone said:

Because reviewers (or HQ) decide what is reasonable? Really?  No, they can decide to not allow a cache to be published on geocaching.com, but that's all. They don't universally decide what is reasonable.

Not publishing on geocaching.com is determining what is reasonable. If it's not reasonable, it won't be published. They might indicate what should change. If it is published, the reviewer has deemed it is reasonable to publish.

 

6 hours ago, funkymunkyzone said:

And all I ever said was that the hidden date is either the hidden date or it is not

What it is not is your strictly literal definition.

We will continue to disagree until we agree on the definition of "Date Hidden" in the context of a Geocaching.com listing property. Until then, continue to bang on. No opinions changing, per all the discussion up until now.

 

6 hours ago, funkymunkyzone said:

And what reason do you think - just your opinion, as a non reviewer like me - a reviewer might come up with for telling said CO they cant use 1995 as the hidden date?

Already answered that, and as others have said, because most likely a reviewer will recommend making the date the date the container was hidden as a geocache.

 

6 hours ago, funkymunkyzone said:

Yes a reviewer and HQ can deny publishing, but that doesn't mean it's for a good reason

Oh they make many decisions I may not like. But I make every effort to determine the reason for such a decision. And at worst it comes down to people trying to push the limit so far that they simply have to say "No".  Sometimes parents and teachers have to do that with unruly kids. In the case of this website, they make the rules, they define what is allowed. For a "Date Hidden", they have every right to determine what is "reasonable" for their website. Even if I don't like it. But for the record, I don't think 1995 should be allowed either. Because I believe the definition of (and I believe they define) the field is explicitly in the context of a geocache. (psst and if it's not already clear, I also believe that to be reasonable =P)

 

6 hours ago, funkymunkyzone said:

it doesn't mean we cant talk about it being a silly reason. No one is going to die because of it, either way...

Hey, we agree.  No one said you can't talk about how restricting 1995 for whatever reason is a silly reason. But you can't say we can't repeatedly disagree with you = P

 

6 hours ago, funkymunkyzone said:

The sky is blue. You can say the sky is green - it doesn't matter if you do, but that statement is still untrue.

If you created or owned the sky, or you fundamentally defined "blue" and "green", you'd have every right to say what is or isn't blue and green.

 

5 hours ago, funkymunkyzone said:

Ex-summit log box - to me that's different. It wasnt owned or hidden by the cache owner. If the cache owner didnt hide it themselves, how can they claim they hid it on some past date? That is just my opinion though, that I think makes sense... otherwise you could shove a log book in a cave and say it was hidden a million years ago.

Well for the cave, no, because the cache is in the cave. The example was using the actual container as the cache. If that box is the cache, and it's been there since who knows when, then the box itself was hidden way back then, so why not use that year? Why would you say that's not reasonable but 1995 is? Why is it okay to use someone else's box with their placed date because it was a geocache and owned by a geocacher but not the ex-summit log box because it wasn't? These seem to be entirely subjective parameters you're adding to the situation to define "reasonable" in your own opinion. Now if you owned your own geocaching website, you'd have every right to allow that date, define it however you wish, what you believe to be "reasonable" across your website.

But HQ owns geocaching.com, and they get to decide what is a reasonable set of parameters for the value of the field. And as described by IceColdUK, pretty much every aspect of the listing is in the context of the geocache. At worst, we can infer by context what is reasonable for the hidden date, before a ruling is made by a reviewer.

 

If you infer something different, well then there's a test - find a way to publish a listing using a container with a relatively extreme Hidden Date by your definition of 'reasonable' that may be in conflict with the argument we're making. Then find out what a reviewer decides. Heck if they say no, you could even take it to appeals and get an official ruling from HQ directly.

 

And even if they still say no to the date that you think is 'reasonable', you would still have every right to believe that HQ is being "unreasonable". Probably won't change much though :P

 

 

4 hours ago, amgraves86 said:
On 1/27/2020 at 2:39 PM, ras_oscar said:

it would still be cool to reuse the container and tell the story in your cache page. If it was originally set in January of 1955 you could name the cache January 1955 :)

 

I think this is what I would do! Such a cool idea

 

Absolutely!  I think it would be awesome to find a cache that's actually been there decades, with a very interesting and inspiring story :) Depending on how much is still tied to that time, it could even get loads of FP recognition.

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23 minutes ago, hzoi said:

Nice.  Sounds like a trail register or summit register.  I found a few of those before geocaching, like a rusty coffee can on top of Mount Ballard near Bisbee, Arizona.  (These days, not far from one of our earthcaches, as it turns out.)  Some have since been listed as geocaches.

 

I found a few mini chapel guestbooks and signed in. :D

I really wish the box at the summit of Kristinartindar in Iceland wasn't frozen shut when I got there (and sliced my finger unknowingly while trying to open it). Would have loved to get my name on that one.

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On 1/28/2020 at 2:12 PM, CheekyBrit said:

I found a mountainous geocache this summer that had a ton of written names that are nowhere to be found on geocaching.com or similar websites. It's like a few hikers found it and joined it. I could see that happening to a long time hidden but not published cache.

 

Like hzoi,  we've found many summit registers, and it seems that's what you might have found too.   There's a lot near you.     :)

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2 hours ago, thebruce0 said:

the date the container was hidden as a geocache.

 

 

That's been my interpretation of the "Date HIdden" field - the date I hid the GEOCACHE.  Prior to May 2000 it was something else - a time capsule, a letterbox, etc.  Even in May 2000 it was a STASH, not a geocache!  So, yeah, I totally get that a Hidden date of 1995 would not work.

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On 1/27/2020 at 1:31 PM, CheekyBrit said:

While on holiday as a kid, some friends and I hid an ammo can container as a sort of time capsule. This was before any of us knew geocaching existed. Looking back to it, this container is set up just like a geocache since there is a half blank notebook in there that would function as a log, and a bit of SWAG from our childhood (so it's mostly junk kids didn't mind leaving behind).

 

What are your thoughts on turning this into a geocache and using our original hide date as the hidden date? That would make it one of the oldest caches in the county.

My 2 cents. Since you had no idea what a geocache was at the time, you didn't hide a geocache. You hid a time capsule. Which you now want to convert to a geocache. If it was me, Id use the date you submit it for publication and tell the history of it.

But that's only an opinion.

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16 hours ago, funkymunkyzone said:

Old cache container becoming new cache - interesting example. If it's still the same container, same hide, then I'd say same date but only because it was already a cache... really no material difference than an old archived cache being unarchived (match stash, Seattle ape cache), although maybe unarchival and adoption would be cleaner.

 

Ex-summit log box - to me that's different. It wasnt owned or hidden by the cache owner. If the cache owner didnt hide it themselves, how can they claim they hid it on some past date? That is just my opinion though, that I think makes sense... otherwise you could shove a log book in a cave and say it was hidden a million years ago.

 

These two paragraphs contradict each other.  Old cache taken over by a new owner - use original date.  Old summit log taken over by a new owner - no, because it wasn't the original owner.

 

I can't see how something hidden before geocaches ever existed can claim to be a hidden geocache.  In the TO's case, it was hidden as time capsule - not meant to be found (like a cache).  No log book - every cache has to have one - the half filled notebook wasn't placed to record finders, it original writing was included as part of the TC contents.  Repurposing something as a cache does not make it a cache from the beginning.

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20 hours ago, thebruce0 said:

 

But we're not talking about the vast majority of cases where it's a matter of which month within a year or so.  It was raised because of the question of whether a hidden date of 1995 would be allowed.  Almost certainly it wouldn't - and hidden dates were cleaned up a number of years back for various reasons as well.  I'd even wager to guess that no, it's not purely about "messing statistics", nor that disallowing a year like that would be promoting "lying".  But IANAR, so if you think I'm wrong, then I too think you're wrong, and we're at an impasse until someone at HQ weighs in.  But until then, HQ's track record implies that "hidden date" is not to be a 100% literal description of the physical container to the exclusivity of all other factors (there's a reasonable window of validity), not to be trusted as 100% precise in every cache listing (it can be edited at the CO's will), and really not as significant a data point as some might want to believe.

I thought it was you who came up with that hypothetical year 1995, the OP merely said it would be one of the oldest caches. My opinion is unchanged regardless of whether it's approved by HQ. I don't remember if there was anything in the instructions what to put in that field, but if it says "hidden", that's unambiguously tells me when the cache was placed here.  For me, it's just  a piece of information same as attributes and ratings. They are not supposed to be misleading.

 

 

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10 hours ago, RocTheCacheBox said:

My 2 cents. Since you had no idea what a geocache was at the time, you didn't hide a geocache. You hid a time capsule. Which you now want to convert to a geocache. If it was me, Id use the date you submit it for publication and tell the history of it.

But that's only an opinion.

Technically what was hidden then was a cache. It becomes a geocache when it is listed on a geocaching website.

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On 1/27/2020 at 7:31 PM, CheekyBrit said:

While on holiday as a kid, some friends and I hid an ammo can container as a sort of time capsule. This was before any of us knew geocaching existed. Looking back to it, this container is set up just like a geocache since there is a half blank notebook in there that would function as a log, and a bit of SWAG from our childhood (so it's mostly junk kids didn't mind leaving behind).

 

What are your thoughts on turning this into a geocache and using our original hide date as the hidden date? That would make it one of the oldest caches in the county.

 

Another point of view:

If I was you, I would keep my time capsule resting in safety for the future (generations). It's so valuable now, imagine what a treasure it will become for your kids and for kids of your kids .. If you'd get it published as geocache, you'll invoke a lot of risks:

  • Frequent visits of strangers will expose its hideout.
  • Game is not played by honest people only, someone may steal it. If there is only 1% risk of bad intention, after 100 finds it is multiplied to 64% (formula: 1 - (0.99 ^ 100)).
  • Players may trade your valued items out, even if you ask them don't to do so. Many don't read anything. Many read only hint.
  • They may close capsule slovenly and humidity will finish the damage. Happens so often with geocaches.

Sorry for skepticism - turning your capsule to geocache is sort of bye-bye.

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Add me to the list of people who consider it a geocache when it's listed on geocaching.com. Before that, it was a time capsule. After the listing date it became  a time capsule and a geocache.  I agree with Rikitan, "turning your capsule to geocache is sort of bye-bye" to the time capsule concept and contents. 

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10 hours ago, papu66 said:

I thought it was you who came up with that hypothetical year 1995

huh, go figure, for some reason I thought someone else mentioned 1995 first, but it does appear to be me. Point remains though, whether it's 1995, 1985, or 1255.

 

10 hours ago, papu66 said:

I don't remember if there was anything in the instructions what to put in that field, but if it says "hidden", that's unambiguously tells me when the cache was placed here.

Again, it depends on what you infer about what's being hidden. I mean, if you put the cache inside an abandoned cairn, then you can use the same argument that 'hidden date' (since it doesn't specific the geocache container) could refer to the thing the container is in. How specific does the name need to be?  Most people understand it to mean "the date the geocache was hidden". if it wasn't a geocache when it was physically placed, then the date means when it was first considered to be a geocache.  Clearly a handful of people are inferring a different meaning/context to the field.

I guess feel free to continue to disagree with the actual intent of the field. But there is a history of what HQ has decided for it to mean, and 1995 is simply not a valid geocache hidden date, even if the physical object was placed then, before it was ever even considered of becoming a geocache, let alone its owner knowing what that was.

 

10 hours ago, papu66 said:

For me, it's just  a piece of information same as attributes and ratings. They are not supposed to be misleading.

Agreed. But who's being misled? If, as we posit, the description explains the history of the physical container, then the hidden is true - it's when the geocache was hidden - and the listing explains the history of the object, the item, the location. What's misleading about that?

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14 minutes ago, thebruce0 said:

I mean, if you put the cache inside an abandoned cairn, then you can use the same argument that 'hidden date' (since it doesn't specific the geocache container) could refer to the thing the container is in.

 

This is similar to the cache size argument.

A bison tube is a micro. Put it into a hole drilled in a 4" long branch, it's a small. Put it into a log that is 12" long and 6" wide, it's a regular size (possibly large).

This feels like a deceptive way to be on a  leaderboard of oldest caches, and to attract cachers who grid-fill, and want to qualify for challenge caches. 

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And, really, who expects the hidden date to be 100% accurate/truthful? Apart from statistical relevance, does anyone care if the date is Apr 15, 2018 or Apr 17, 2018 - or on which date the cache was actually hidden? Making the argument that 1995 would be "the truth", what if the owner put Apr 17, 1995 when it was actually placed on Apr 15? Are they now being deceptive? yeeshk.  The owner can decide what the hidden date is, and they're under no obligation to be "100% truthful/factual" - only that it's within a reasonable window of time to the intended publish date, and if somehow the CO's conscience is bothering them, explain the "truth" in the description. No one will be the wiser, let alone somehow inconvenienced or feel "lied to" if the hidden date is inaccurate (if they even know the "truth").

It is what it is (but it's the date the geocache was hidden :P )

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On 1/30/2020 at 9:48 PM, barefootjeff said:

My own feeling in a situation like the OP described is that the hidden date ought to be the date he decided it was going to be a geocache. On that basis, something hidden in 1995 couldn't have been hidden as a geocache because there was no such thing then.

I was going to write something similar, but Jeff made a better job of it....

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Ladies and Gentlemen,

 

I am truly sorry if I have ruffled feathers with my question. I have removed the cache in question since it was on BLM land and I don't YET have permission. If I manage to get permission I can put it back but it'd have a 2020 date. Problem solved. Sorry if my silly question caused a ruckus. I admire all of your intellects on geocaching topics like this. Thank you for keeping it civil going forward.

It would be cool, though. I'll let you know if I get permission.

Best regards - that silly Englishman who thought he might have a rare old cache. 

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2 hours ago, CheekyBrit said:

Ladies and Gentlemen,

 

I am truly sorry if I have ruffled feathers with my question. I have removed the cache in question since it was on BLM land and I don't YET have permission. If I manage to get permission I can put it back but it'd have a 2020 date. Problem solved. Sorry if my silly question caused a ruckus. I admire all of your intellects on geocaching topics like this. Thank you for keeping it civil going forward.

It would be cool, though. I'll let you know if I get permission.

Best regards - that silly Englishman who thought he might have a rare old cache. 

Please do not apologize! It was a fascinating topic and debate and  great idea you had!   Please keep us updated!

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