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J Grouchy

Locationless Adventures?

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So I ran through the Project GC adventure and just today did the "Netchvilski: LABrador" one.  Is there a list of other locationless adventures or a way to search for them?

Or do these just get around by word of mouth?

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2 hours ago, J Grouchy said:

and just today did the "Netchvilski: LABrador" one

I'm struggling with the #3 url. Any hint?

 

Hans

Edited by HHL

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36 minutes ago, HHL said:

I'm struggling on the #3 url. Any hint?

 

Hans

 

sent you a message

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2 minutes ago, J Grouchy said:

sent you a message

Thanks.

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3 hours ago, J Grouchy said:

So I ran through the Project GC adventure and just today did the "Netchvilski: LABrador" one.  Is there a list of other locationless adventures or a way to search for them?

Or do these just get around by word of mouth?

Thank you for mentioning this "Locationless Lab" here. I like these kind of riddles, and it was fun to play :).

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There are currently 3 lotationless adventures:

https://labs.geocaching.com/goto/howdy

https://labs.geocaching.com/goto/netchvilski

https://labs.geocaching.com/goto/pgclab2019

And I think more will be published soon.  A good place to find them is the Lab Caches map: https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?fbclid=IwAR2LAjkvBLddbReNTbWUz8oxg1A9gK2UXn6XQhWaQKJjxOIUFzkQf-N94Ho&mid=1CbuZErPABzTp34St2faQPS_-EL7g8vI-&ll=22.714327052531186%2C13.13302739999989&z=2 (also see the Lab Caches Map group on Facebook).

 

I'm not sure how I feel about doing these locationless adventures though, as it doesn't really seem to be in the true spirit of geocaching.  I guess it's not cheating because they're meant to be done in this way, but it kind of feels like it a bit.

It wouldn't surprise me if Groundspeak stop locationless adventures from being published, and I wouldn't argue against it.  Having said that, I'm still doing them, and the Netchvilski one is excellent!

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The Project GC labs have now been removed:

Quote

After discussions with HQ we have now removed our Adventure Lab cache.

It was created a 100% in alignment with the rules set for ALC, but it was never HQs intent that Labcaches should be loggable from home. HQ will update their requirements to show this. We of course have a full understanding for the fact that their shouldn't be "armchair geocaching".

 

I expect the other locationless ones will follow soon.

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Hei

 

I just finished two of these Locationless Adventures. (Project GC and Professor) Project GC was interesting, but Professor is very cool and time consuming LAB. Both are much better than many outdoor  LAB adventures. I understand that HQ dont like these concept but they should keep existing ones.  I am not a fan of Adventure cache and personally I think geocaching should go in a different direction. We have Wherigo and these stands in place for many years. 

 

We will see how it will be developed in the future.

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9 hours ago, Bazonka said:

I'm not sure how I feel about doing these locationless adventures though, as it doesn't really seem to be in the true spirit of geocaching. 

 

I agree, and the site did get rid of the original "locationless caches"  and moved them to Waymarking for that very same reason.  :)

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Well, it looks like HQ removed the PGC Adventure so I expect the others to go soon. 

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And these puzzles can easily be made AS puzzle cache where the solution provides coordinates to caches. No reason they can't do that. The issue is the locationless, log-from-home worldwide concept that wasn't blocked when making ALs.

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I'm not sure I understand what is "geocaching" about getting smilies while sitting on the toilet at home, so I'm not surprised the PGC one is gone, and won't be surprised if the others go too.  If you want to just do puzzles while sitting on the couch, there are plenty of phone apps, puzzle books, games, etc.... but geocaching requires going outside and finding stuff.

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I agree these are not geocaching. But they apparently fit the rules of what an Adventure is and real members of our community spent some effort in making them. So for HQ to then come and say ”but that’s not what we had in mind” is just disappointingly inept.

Edited by mustakorppi
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20 hours ago, mustakorppi said:

I agree these are not geocaching. But they apparently fit the rules of what an Adventure is and real members of our community spent some effort in making them. So for HQ to then come and say ”but that’s not what we had in mind” is just disappointingly inept.

 

Or.... this literally was never what HQ had in mind (and the creators of these knew it)... as in, the problem with the old Lab caches was that people were logging them from home on the other side of the world.  This was annoying a lot of lab cache creators (eg labs for mega events) because all the armchair loggers needed was the codeword and they get a free smiley.  it also did not fit geocaching which is about going out and finding something in the real world.

 

Don't get me wrong, solving puzzles and playing fun games from your couch, nothing wrong with that, it's fun.... it's just not geocaching, it's something else, so why should it earn "finds" in the game of geocaching?  And I'm glad you agree.

Edited by funkymunkyzone
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3 hours ago, funkymunkyzone said:

as in, the problem with the old Lab caches was that people were logging them from home on the other side of the world. 

It’s precisely because this isn’t a new problem that I chose the words I chose. This isn’t HQ’s first rodeo, they should know better. They could have been clear about the rules for Adventures,  they could have made their app so that logging answers from the other side of the world isn’t possible without faking your location... yet here we are.

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1 hour ago, mustakorppi said:

It’s precisely because this isn’t a new problem that I chose the words I chose. This isn’t HQ’s first rodeo, they should know better. They could have been clear about the rules for Adventures,  they could have made their app so that logging answers from the other side of the world isn’t possible without faking your location... yet here we are.

 

You're right.  Because some people need iron-clad rules for everything and don't have the common sense to just do things in the obvious intended way.  Pretty sad really.

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People who want to cheat are going to find a way to cheat no matter what restrictions are placed. I have already heard about people logging adventure labs from across the world (not these 3 specifically) See this thread 

I know some otherwise perfectly nice people who cheat on their stats. And justify it if you call them out on it and try to get you to take part. I decline.

 

I really enjoyed the professor lab. But....kind of agree it isn't really in the spirit of location based games.

 

What I don't understand is how the howdy guy was given 10 locations. I would have loved another 5 locations for mine. I thought they were meant for event organizers.

Edited by hallycat
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5 minutes ago, hallycat said:

What I don't understand is how the howdy guy was given 10 locations.

I don't know for this person in particular. But I know that some (all?) GIFF finalists received 10 stages ALC with a request: to put videos in them.

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13 minutes ago, Tungstène said:

I don't know for this person in particular. But I know that some (all?) GIFF finalists received 10 stages ALC with a request: to put videos in them.

Interesting, I did not look at his profile or his adventure so not sure if he was a finalist or if it has videos. But that makes sense for them to give them a special consideration.

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2 hours ago, hallycat said:

People who want to cheat are going to find a way to cheat no matter what restrictions are placed. I have already heard about people logging adventure labs from across the world (not these 3 specifically) See this thread 

I know some otherwise perfectly nice people who cheat on their stats. And justify it if you call them out on it and try to get you to take part. I decline.

 

I really enjoyed the professor lab. But....kind of agree it isn't really in the spirit of location based games.

 

What I don't understand is how the howdy guy was given 10 locations. I would have loved another 5 locations for mine. I thought they were meant for event organizers.

 

I guess the difference is that usually it's the armchair logging cheaters trying to cheat, but this time it was the creator/owner undermining the game itself by pandering to the armchair logging cheaters...

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On 1/27/2020 at 8:25 AM, funkymunkyzone said:

Because some people need iron-clad rules for everything and don't have the common sense to just do things in the obvious intended way.  Pretty sad really.

That "obvious intended way" is not even hinted in guidelines or FAQ. The HQ has gone out of their way to create a UI for turning off geofencing (it's literally a checkbox). Geofencing can't even be applied to videos so if there's a video hint (like the LABrador lab) the CO couldn't stop people from watching it wherever they want even if they wanted to (the idea being that logging and watching videos could be done on hotel wifi).

 

The "inspiring tips" section does talk about physical locations, but creators are also asked to "innovate and test new ideas".  Every creator involved here seems to have a track record of contributing positively to the geocaching community, so I don't really get your attitude just because you don't like their newest cache.

 

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1 minute ago, mustakorppi said:

That "obvious intended way" is not even hinted in guidelines or FAQ. The HQ has gone out of their way to create a UI for turning off geofencing (it's literally a checkbox). Geofencing can't even be applied to videos so if there's a video hint (like the LABrador lab) the CO couldn't stop people from watching it wherever they want even if they wanted to (the idea being that logging and watching videos could be done on hotel wifi).

 

The "inspiring tips" section does talk about physical locations, but creators are also asked to "innovate and test new ideas".  Every creator involved here seems to have a track record of contributing positively to the geocaching community, so I don't really get your attitude just because you don't like their newest cache.

 

 

You answered your own question about geofencing... so people can log from wifi at a hotel etc.

 

I've been awarded an adventure lab too.

 

And just because I disagree with you and think armchair loggers are cheats, and that those who enabled them are undermining the game of geocaching, doesn't mean I have an attitude.

 

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2 minutes ago, funkymunkyzone said:

You answered your own question about geofencing... so people can log from wifi at a hotel etc.

That's why you'd set the geofencing to a few miles, not turn it off completely.

2 minutes ago, funkymunkyzone said:

And just because I disagree with you and think armchair loggers are cheats,

Where do I say that I armchair logging is not cheating?

3 minutes ago, funkymunkyzone said:

and that those who enabled them are undermining the game of geocaching

I have explicitly said I don't think locationless adventures are geocaching, so what's this now?

5 minutes ago, funkymunkyzone said:

doesn't mean I have an attitude.

You are saying content creators "don't have common sense" and are accusing them of "pandering to cheaters". Rather than inflating people's find count by +5, Project-GC's lab had a lot more obvious motive in advertising their site to the global community. The LABrador adventure was entirely online, so tying it to physical locations would have required an artifical change to the vision. Ditto for the Australian cache. If you didn't have an attitude you'd at least give them the benefit of doubt.

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11 minutes ago, mustakorppi said:

That's why you'd set the geofencing to a few miles, not turn it off completely.

Where do I say that I armchair logging is not cheating?

I have explicitly said I don't think locationless adventures are geocaching, so what's this now?

You are saying content creators "don't have common sense" and are accusing them of "pandering to cheaters". Rather than inflating people's find count by +5, Project-GC's lab had a lot more obvious motive in advertising their site to the global community. The LABrador adventure was entirely online, so tying it to physical locations would have required an artifical change to the vision. Ditto for the Australian cache. If you didn't have an attitude you'd at least give them the benefit of doubt.

 

Look I'm not going to argue with you any more.  I don't know if English is your native language, but if not, I'm not smart enough to discuss this with you in any other language.  I'm not going to break down everything I said and explain how I never said that you said that armchair logging is not cheating, I really can't be bothered.

 

It is my opinion that these online only log from anywhere adventure caches undermine the whole concept, and these specific creators are well aware of that.  I don't need to give anyone benefit of the doubt because there is no doubt.

 

Happy caching!

Edited by funkymunkyzone

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8 hours ago, funkymunkyzone said:

I don't know if English is your native language, but if not, I'm not smart enough to discuss this with you in any other language. 

You know you could have just said that you phrased things awkwardly, or gone with a ”let’s agree to disagree” or even say nothing at all. But instead you chose to go with a thinly-veiled put-down. Yeah, I’m done talking to you too. Happy caching.

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I don't really understand "geofencing... so people can log from wifi at a hotel etc."   Adventure Labs require a data connection.   I have recently set a "typical" Adventure lab, where you need to go to specific locations and get information to answer the questions.     If you have signal at the locations, then you can answer the questions there, no need to go to your hotel.   If you don't have signal at the locations, then how do you play?

 

I guess you could:

1.  From your hotel, look at the locations, where they are on the map, and what the questions are.

2.  Go to those locations looking for the answers (not using the app, as you don't have data service at the locations).

3.  Return to your hotel to submit the answers.

 

But I doubt many will do that.  Actually as mine requires the 5 locations to be done in sequence,  they would need to go back to their hotel after every stage.   

 

So I put a small geofencing zone (50 metres).     

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1 hour ago, redsox_mark said:

I don't really understand "geofencing... so people can log from wifi at a hotel etc."   Adventure Labs require a data connection.   I have recently set a "typical" Adventure lab, where you need to go to specific locations and get information to answer the questions.     If you have signal at the locations, then you can answer the questions there, no need to go to your hotel.   If you don't have signal at the locations, then how do you play?

 

I guess you could:

1.  From your hotel, look at the locations, where they are on the map, and what the questions are.

2.  Go to those locations looking for the answers (not using the app, as you don't have data service at the locations).

3.  Return to your hotel to submit the answers.

 

But I doubt many will do that.  Actually as mine requires the 5 locations to be done in sequence,  they would need to go back to their hotel after every stage.   

 

So I put a small geofencing zone (50 metres).     

 

Adventure labs require that you have a signal while at or near the site.  The issue is whether the signal at or near the site is from free (no cost) wifi.  I am not happy that I must have a smart phone that can handle the app AND I must have access to purchased data service.

Edited by elyob
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21 hours ago, elyob said:

 

Adventure labs require that you have a signal while at or near the site.  The issue is whether the signal at or near the site is from free (no cost) wifi.  I am not happy that I must have a smart phone that can handle the app AND I must have access to purchased data service.

 

I understand that.   I would like visitors to be able to do my Adventure Lab without a data service.   But if the only service they have is wifi in their hotel a couple of miles away, that doesn't seem a very workable solution, especially for a sequential adventure.   So I figure it makes sense to keep the geofencing small.  

 

That way, when the app says they are close enough to answer, they know they are close to the place with the answer.

Edited by redsox_mark
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The free-wifi idea would still apply if there is a public library, Starbucks outlet, etc. near each site on the adventure lab.

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5 hours ago, mustakorppi said:

You know you could have just said that you phrased things awkwardly, or gone with a ”let’s agree to disagree” or even say nothing at all. But instead you chose to go with a thinly-veiled put-down. Yeah, I’m done talking to you too. Happy caching.

I shall remember in future to never again compliment someone on being able to speak multiple languages that I cannot.

Ignore list added to!

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21 hours ago, elyob said:

The free-wifi idea would still apply if there is a public library, Starbucks outlet, etc. near each site on the adventure lab.

True.   Or even if there is wifi at each of the locations, then that's great.   It works with a small geofence zone then.

 

My point was, and is still, about the argument that the reason for allowing a  large geofence (or even turning it off) is so people can log from their hotels which may be far from the Adventure Lab.

 

And my point still is:  If they have to go a large distance from each location to get service, then they can't really do the Adventure Lab.   

 

So I conclude that turning geofencing off (which is what this thread is about) is only useful if you want people to be able to do the Adventure Lab anywhere.  

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53 minutes ago, redsox_mark said:

My point was, and is still, about the argument that the reason for allowing a  large geofence (or even turning it off) is so people can log from their hotels which may be far from the Adventure Lab.

I know two ALCs in my area (one of which is my own), which use a relatively large geofencing radius, because they are played partially indoors. So you don't have a GPS signal, and the location service on the phone has to work with other means (e.g. data from cell phone reception and/or local WiFi). Because of this, I have set the radius for my indoor locations to 1000 meters.

But I agree that the option to turn it off completely wasn't a good idea by GS, if they really didn't want to have "play anywhere" ALCs.

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On 1/27/2020 at 3:12 PM, funkymunkyzone said:

 

I guess the difference is that usually it's the armchair logging cheaters trying to cheat, but this time it was the creator/owner undermining the game itself by pandering to the armchair logging cheaters...

 

Do you have any direct evidence that the creators of these Locationless ALCs were specifically pandering to armchair loggers? Do you know for a fact that the only reason the creators made these locationless was to inflate the numbers of armchair loggers? If you have no evidence, don't sling accusation at the creators. 

They aren't for you. That's fine. There are 3 million other caches to look for. The current selection of Locationless ALCs aren't going to rock the foundation of geocaching. If they aren't in the spirit of what Groundspeak wants, there will be a change to the guidelines, and no more will be available.

 

Many people argue that powertrails are against the spirit of geocaching too.
 

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2 hours ago, igator210 said:

 

Do you have any direct evidence that the creators of these Locationless ALCs were specifically pandering to armchair loggers?
 

 

Yes.  They made them able to be logged from anywhere.  Ipso facto.  Do you think that they were made them able to be logged from anywhere, and that there is nowhere physical that you need to go to to find anything, to encourage people to go hike to the top of a mountain to log them?

 

2 hours ago, igator210 said:

 

Do you know for a fact that the only reason the creators made these locationless was to inflate the numbers of armchair loggers? If you have no evidence, don't sling accusation at the creators. 

 

I don't know what's wrong with some people on this forum - implying and sometimes outright stating that someone said something they didn't and trying to crucify them for it.  I never said the *only* reason was to inflate the numbers of armchair loggers...

2 hours ago, igator210 said:

 

They aren't for you. That's fine. There are 3 million other caches to look for. The current selection of Locationless ALCs aren't going to rock the foundation of geocaching. If they aren't in the spirit of what Groundspeak wants, there will be a change to the guidelines, and no more will be available.
 

 

Honestly, do you need Groundspeak to tell you what geocaching is?  Did you not understand what geocaching is when you started playing the game?  What next - smiley's for completing a crossword on the couch?  Perhaps for doing the dishes or vacuuming the lounge?  Face palm.

 

Also, Groundspeak asked Project GC to remove their log from anywhere adventure lab... so there's your answer.

 

Edited by funkymunkyzone

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Geocaching HQ is pleased to see such a positive response to the Adventure Lab platform over the past year. Today, more than 1,600 Adventures are public worldwide. The ratings and activity logs indicate a lot of enthusiasm for the variety of available Adventures. These Adventures help us to discover the world around us in new and exciting ways. We are continuing to invest in the platform and we are looking forward to seeing many more Adventures go live in 2020.
 
Recently we have become aware of a few Adventures that are not consistent with our current goals for an interactive location-based game. Many in the community are calling these Locationless Adventures as they do not require visiting a physical location. 
 
Although we appreciate experimentation, at this time we would like players to visit physical locations in order to participate in an Adventure. We realize that we have not made that requirement clear in our guidelines, so we will be clarifying this guidance going forward. 
 
Please note that we plan to continue experimenting with the Adventure Lab platform and our guidelines are subject to change. Adventures that do not follow the current guidelines may be removed.
 

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33 minutes ago, Frau Potter said:

Geocaching HQ is pleased to see such a positive response to the Adventure Lab platform over the past year. Today, more than 1,600 Adventures are public worldwide. The ratings and activity logs indicate a lot of enthusiasm for the variety of available Adventures. These Adventures help us to discover the world around us in new and exciting ways. We are continuing to invest in the platform and we are looking forward to seeing many more Adventures go live in 2020.
 
Recently we have become aware of a few Adventures that are not consistent with our current goals for an interactive location-based game. Many in the community are calling these Locationless Adventures as they do not require visiting a physical location. 
 
Although we appreciate experimentation, at this time we would like players to visit physical locations in order to participate in an Adventure. We realize that we have not made that requirement clear in our guidelines, so we will be clarifying this guidance going forward. 
 
Please note that we plan to continue experimenting with the Adventure Lab platform and our guidelines are subject to change. Adventures that do not follow the current guidelines may be removed.
 

Thank you for letting us know!

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With respect to the issue of being away from home and not having cell service at a certain Adventure Lab location, it is certainly possible to program the Adventure Lab app to allow a user to make their post off-line, and hold it as a pending post. Cachly has this feature. 
 

Then when the user is back at their hotel with Wi-Fi, or when they finally get cell service,  the pending post can be posted. But the post will  have embedded the GPS lat long from the actual location where they posted from, and if that is not within the geo-fence then it would fail.

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7 hours ago, pixpixpix said:

With respect to the issue of being away from home and not having cell service at a certain Adventure Lab location, it is certainly possible to program the Adventure Lab app to allow a user to make their post off-line, and hold it as a pending post. Cachly has this feature. 
 

Then when the user is back at their hotel with Wi-Fi, or when they finally get cell service,  the pending post can be posted. But the post will  have embedded the GPS lat long from the actual location where they posted from, and if that is not within the geo-fence then it would fail.

 

That's one reason why there is the option of Geofencing to set the allowed radius for playing. I know, it's not necessarily the best option, but it might/should allow you to get the info upfront, plus the questions. Then go to the places, get the answers and as you're back at a place with service/WiFi, answer the questions. Far from perfect, but a (hopefully) working solution.

You never know, at some point the app might also allow preloading Labs...

 

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To those complaining about the Adventure Lab App requiring an active data connection at the location, you must simply choose another AL to complete. It is no different than arriving at a cache location and not having the needed TOTT to retrieve the cache.  I guess the complainer's logic could be extrapolated to the extreme of  "I have a ladder at home, so I will log a find on that tree-climb cache when I get home."

 

Not every smiley can be obtained by every geocacher.

 

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On 2/1/2020 at 8:45 AM, monsterbox said:

That's one reason why there is the option of Geofencing to set the allowed radius for playing. I know, it's not necessarily the best option, but it might/should allow you to get the info upfront, plus the questions.

 

The benefit of live connection being required is that the game 'package' does not exist offline. Otherwise you have a Wherigo, essentially. If it's possible for someone to get the package offline, there's no reason it can't be hacked to get the necessary task/answers.  The reason ALs benefit from being online is that it's unique from other cache types and provides a different experience - but that means it does require another tool to complete. If you don't have the tool, you can't claim the find.

 

The only legitimate argument I've seen is from large events (say Megas) that want to have related temporary ALs for the event, but the event is in a receptionless area. The only response is - well, then you wouldn't be able to have ALs published for the event.

 

But what if the AL were published at some other location, either near general reception or at a known wifi-hotspot like a coffee shop, but the Lab could only be played at the Mega - not by requiring location, but by handouts or information provided in the Lab description, so the answers would be gathered at/during the event and then submitted at the 'lab hub' as it were (perhaps even just someone's personal hotspot), that would solve that issue. Especially if the ALs are only temporary.

They wouldn't need to be locationless; still bound to a location and proximity.   And that could all be published as one part of the event.

 

For a random example setup off the top of my head:

"We will have 5 Adventure Labs to complete during the mega!  But since our event is so remote, away from data reception, we've included in your registration package the fun of the Adventure Lab tasks for you to complete during the event. Once you've gathered your answers, we've published the Adventure Labs [either] at the nearest coffee shop where you'll be able to connect to the wifi and claim the Lab [or] at our event command center where we've set up a wifi hot spot (and one Lab's answer is the wifi password!). Note that if you want to complete these Labs, you will need to run them and complete them at these GPS locations!"

 

It's a workaround, but it can easily fit into such a remote event's planning.

 

For any other case, well, Adventure Labs cannot be locationless, and they can't exist in a permanent fashion where there is no data reception (or else expand the fencing to ensure it's valid in a location with data reception).

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On 2/3/2020 at 4:25 PM, thebruce0 said:

 

The benefit of live connection being required is that the game 'package' does not exist offline. Otherwise you have a Wherigo, essentially. If it's possible for someone to get the package offline, there's no reason it can't be hacked to get the necessary task/answers.  The reason ALs benefit from being online is that it's unique from other cache types and provides a different experience - but that means it does require another tool to complete. If you don't have the tool, you can't claim the find.


Lots of text deleted, sorry ;) The Adventure doesn't necessarily need to have answers included. A hash code of the correct answer would be enough, so you best case might be able to get the questions. At least technically spoken :)

Geofencing: If you don't do it, answers will be shared pretty quick. And even with that Mega option you suggested, what should stop people from just handing out the answers at the logging points? So, best option in such cases really might be, to NOT have an Adventure lab there. That's at least what I would prefer!

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1 minute ago, monsterbox said:

Lots of text deleted, sorry ;) The Adventure doesn't necessarily need to have answers included. A hash code of the correct answer would be enough, so you best case might be able to get the questions. At least technically spoken :)

Conceptually though, the 'answer' exists offline, and hashes really aren't secure. They're just a manner of obfuscation against human understanding, and almost certainly allows for collisions producing multiple possible working 'answers'.  My point was that having the solvability offline at all is the issue.  If you can only solve it online, then the service controls who will 'solve' or not - both by verifying answers remotely, and by throttling attempts. Not so if the answers can be determined offline - thus quickly hacked.

 

4 minutes ago, monsterbox said:

And even with that Mega option you suggested, what should stop people from just handing out the answers at the logging points?

At least that would be 100% personal decision, not a technicality :P There's no way for the app to know if someone was handed the answer physically while at a location instead of looking at the sign to mentally calculate the answer. And, whether that's possible (or how likely it would be) would also depend on how the event is run, and how the creators design the AL.

 

So again the point is solely whether the answer can be determined 100% offline, or if it requires an online request for every verification to determine if it's solved.  The middle ground is determining the answer 100%, but needing connectivity to submit the answer; there the throttling can still apply if it's the wrong answer, but if the person can verify the correct answer offline, then requiring a server connection to submit it at that point a minor technicality.

 

So, for best security (which is still not fool-proof) an AL should be online only, no package downloads that include the answer in any form, and require connectivity to even submit an answer, checked at the server end, and throttled to a human-reasonable rate.

Otherwise, the system will be hacked. (as we're seeing now if the reports are true and that infamous TB code group is now also publishing completion codes and instructions for location-spoofing - but there is no counter to that except allowing the AL owner to manage logs on their own ALs, and possibly report abusers, just like with the TB loggers)

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4 minutes ago, thebruce0 said:

So, for best security (which is still not fool-proof) an AL should be online only, no package downloads that include the answer in any form, and require connectivity to even submit an answer, checked at the server end, and throttled to a human-reasonable rate.

Otherwise, the system will be hacked. (as we're seeing now if the reports are true and that infamous TB code group is now also publishing completion codes and instructions for location-spoofing - but there is no counter to that except allowing the AL owner to manage logs on their own ALs, and possibly report abusers, just like with the TB loggers)

 

I know, nothing is perfect and there always will be ways to cheat. I can see it with my own AL. Some cheated with coords and logged all the answers within minutes, what isn't possible as they are far off each others. It just doesn't have to be too strict, that just discourages the fair players too much. Will see what the future brings...

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I usually stay away from conversations where people get a little emotional so I'll just say this. I was awarded an Adventure Labcache and nobody has armchair logged my adventure. Why?  Because I made it so the needed answer could not be Googled. I choose something that would not be described on a plaque or seen in a photo.  You have to be intentional yet still meet the objective of getting people to the location.  Its that simple.  If you didn't do that, your asking people to cheat. 

Edited by flowten

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20 minutes ago, flowten said:

I usually stay away from conversations where people get a little emotional so I'll just say this. I was awarded an Adventure Labcache and nobody has armchair logged my adventure. Why?  Because I made it so the needed answer could not be Googled. I choose something that would not be described on a plaque or seen in a photo.  You have to be intentional yet still meet the objective of getting people to the location.  Its that simple.  If you didn't do that, your asking people to cheat. 

I did exactly the same. My answers couldn't be googled, guessed or brute-forced. No armchair logs for about 3 or 4 weeks. Then one of the solvers shared the codes on FB. The main problem are not those, who take the effort to get all the answers themselves while not being on location. The sharing of solutions on public forums is. It's the same with puzzle caches, but for those

- the cacher must still come to the cache

- and if they don't do that and log a find anyway, the CO can delete their log.

Both obstacles to armchair logging don't exist for ALCs, so cheating is much more widespread there.

 

Edited by baer2006
Typo
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19 minutes ago, flowten said:

I usually stay away from conversations where people get a little emotional so I'll just say this. I was awarded an Adventure Labcache and nobody has armchair logged my adventure. Why?  Because I made it so the needed answer could not be Googled. I choose something that would not be described on a plaque or seen in a photo.  You have to be intentional yet still meet the objective of getting people to the location.  Its that simple.  If you didn't do that, your asking people to cheat. 

You can make the Adventure Lab as cheat-proof as possible but people will still cheat and share codes. 

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40 minutes ago, Max and 99 said:

You can make the Adventure Lab as cheat-proof as possible but people will still cheat and share codes. 

 

Yeah... I don't get how it's just so "normal" now though, "no big deal" since everyone does it... 

We both have other's "PAF" numbers, she calls them back too.    ;)

I keep numbers offered in case I'm in the area and get hurt.  Still don't know who it was that gave my personal number to pass around...

 - Now that most realize I'm not helping them unless the CO says it's okay, most days I can just leave the phone off.

But the idea that folks can just walk up to you at an event, and think it's okay to give you what they're asking for, just seems odd to me...

 

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1 hour ago, Max and 99 said:

You can make the Adventure Lab as cheat-proof as possible but people will still cheat and share codes. 

 

 

Yup.. there is a FB page that is sharing codes and how to spoof locations. Sigh.

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