Groundspeak doesn't want us to hide new caches?

[+JohnCNA]

One of my friends had this to say on Facebook today. I don't understand the logic and wonder what the back story about this might be. He's not a power trail hider, so it's puzzling. 

 

PSA: I learned something new (to me) last night. Groundspeak doesn't want us to encourage others to place geocaches. I submitted a new cache which is stocked with ready made caches and in the description suggested people take one and place it. Not allowed.

[RuideAlmeida]

6 minutes ago, JohnCNA said:

One of my friends had this to say on Facebook today. I don't understand the logic and wonder what the back story about this might be. He's not a power trail hider, so it's puzzling. 

 

PSA: I learned something new (to me) last night. Groundspeak doesn't want us to encourage others to place geocaches. I submitted a new cache which is stocked with ready made caches and in the description suggested people take one and place it. Not allowed.

 

The guideline about No Agendas...

 

No agendas

Cache pages perceived to promote an agenda or highlight a cause will not be published. Geocaching is a fun, family-friendly game, not a platform for promoting a cause. Agendas are often religious, political, social, or charitable, but aren't limited to these. Also, cache pages cannot require or encourage players to place more caches.

[+Harry Dolphin]

Requiring a finder to place a new cache is not permitted.

[+Max and 99]

The solution is simple. Take away the part on the cache page that suggests people use the containers to go hide a cache.

 

.There used to be a FTF series here: The person who got FTF was asked to place a cache and call it the next  number in the series. Those are no longer allowed either.

[+JohnCNA]

12 minutes ago, Harry Dolphin said:

Requiring a finder to place a new cache is not permitted.

There was no requirement to do anything. He just thought it might encourage others if he supplied a few free containers. 

[+JohnCNA]

1 hour ago, RuideAlmeida said:

 

The guideline about No Agendas...

 

No agendas

Cache pages perceived to promote an agenda or highlight a cause will not be published. Geocaching is a fun, family-friendly game, not a platform for promoting a cause. Agendas are often religious, political, social, or charitable, but aren't limited to these. Also, cache pages cannot require or encourage players to place more caches.

Agendas I get. It's been there for as long as I can remember. I just don't get the part about not encouraging others to place caches. Not talking about requiring anything. Just encouraging. Oh well, I'm sure there have been some abuses and complaints somewhere. And personally, I'd just as soon not see a flood of new urban pill bottles anyway. ?

[Keystone]

Not everyone is cut out to be a cache owner.  Having an ALR (Additional Logging Requirement) to place a cache guaranteed some crappy cache placements.  That went away when ALR's were discontinued.  Then came "encouragement" language instead of the ALR.  Some finders felt guilty if they didn't hide one of the cache containers when they found the cache.  This resulted in some more crappy cache placements.

 

There will always be crappy cache placements.  I see this weekly when I publish a cache that meets all the Geocache Hiding Guidelines, but isn't anything spectacular, like a cache next to a dumpster behind a restaurant.  While that's true, why encourage it?  Let people hide caches if and when they want to do so.  Geocaching HQ does want people to hide caches when they are motivated to do so.  Hopefully that's more of the good ones and fewer of the crappy ones.

[+kunarion]

47 minutes ago, Keystone said:

Some finders felt guilty if they didn't hide one of the cache containers when they found the cache.

This is especially bad when the containers are not so great for placement in the wilds.  Such as pill bottles wrapped in tape (where someone spent some time wrapping them).  You can’t expect that those bottles will still be there when you need to replace yours later.  Nevermind that, yeah, the one gifting the bottles kind of expects the taker to place it.

 

I have occasionally placed a bison tube or two as swag, no obligation.  

 

 

Edited January 23, 2020 by kunarion

[+niraD]

18 minutes ago, kunarion said:

I have occasionally placed a bison tube or two as swag, no obligation.  

Same here. I have left Bison tubes, complete with weatherproof log sheets, as trade items.

 

But one of the things I really appreciate about Groundspeak is that they avoid encouraging people who are not ready to own geocaches from hiding geocaches for reasons other than the desire to own and maintain a geocache.

[+barefootjeff]

1 hour ago, Keystone said:

Some finders felt guilty if they didn't hide one of the cache containers when they found the cache.

 

At one of last year's Creation Celebration events, I was given a couple of containers. One of them wasn't exactly crappy, but it was something I wouldn't normally use for my hides. I ended up using it, though, as the final in a multi where it's attached camo kind of fitted GZ. It's robust enough and is well protected from sun and rain, but, well, it's a micro (although the camo is much bigger) and that cache didn't really need to be a micro. So giving out containers does carry with it a bit of a moral obligation on the recipient to use them.

 

Had they given me a mint tin, though, it would have quietly gone into the recycling bin.

 

Edited January 23, 2020 by barefootjeff

[+Goldenwattle]

1 hour ago, barefootjeff said:

It's robust enough and is well protected from sun and rain, but, well, it's a micro (although the camo is much bigger) and that cache didn't really need to be a micro.

I'm guessing a rock key holder. Yep a micro (amazing how many call this a 'small', even though it's internal micro area - the important bit -  won't fit TBs and trinkets). I might call it an 'other' re size, because although the outside is a small 'small', the inside is micro.

[+barefootjeff]

14 minutes ago, Goldenwattle said:

I'm guessing a rock key holder. Yep a micro (amazing how many call this a 'small', even though it's internal micro area - the important bit -  won't fit TBs and trinkets). I might call it an 'other' re size, because although the outside is a small 'small', the inside is micro.

 

A good guess but no, it's a lump of wood with a long narrow tube inserted into it. Someone put a fair bit of effort into making it but just not my style. I prefer something with room for a decent-sized logbook.

 

[+L0ne.R]

4 hours ago, JohnCNA said:

One of my friends had this to say on Facebook today. I don't understand the logic and wonder what the back story about this might be. He's not a power trail hider, so it's puzzling. 

 

PSA: I learned something new (to me) last night. Groundspeak doesn't want us to encourage others to place geocaches. I submitted a new cache which is stocked with ready made caches and in the description suggested people take one and place it. Not allowed.

 

A bucket full of ammo cans!?

Edited January 23, 2020 by L0ne.R

[+Goldenwattle]

35 minutes ago, barefootjeff said:

 

A good guess but no, it's a lump of wood with a long narrow tube inserted into it. Someone put a fair bit of effort into making it but just not my style. I prefer something with room for a decent-sized logbook.

 

Does look like effort has gone into that. I would rate that an 'other'.

[+Touchstone]

5 hours ago, JohnCNA said:

One of my friends had this to say on Facebook today.

Sounds like you might need to find some better informed friends who take a bit more time researching the "why's" before bolting to social media to feed their angst.

 

My recollection of the first ALR of this nature was a game promoted by a geocoin mfg.  As part of the bingo style requirements to earn the coin, you had to place a cache and get it Published.

 

The next iteration came with the so called "Curse of the FTF.." series, which also lead to a devolution of crappy cache containers in questionable locations.

 

This eventually led to the migration to the Challenge Listings pre moratorium days, which a handful of Challenge CO's made it a requirement to have a Published Listing on your Profile to qualify.

 

None of these attempts improved the game in the slightest.

 

Like one of our old timer's used to say, "if you hide it, they will come".  The best way to promote new hides in an area is to find an area that people like to return and visit.  If you place one cache in an interesting and unique location, chances are, other people will place some caches nearby without provocation.

[+cerberus1]

3 hours ago, kunarion said:

I have occasionally placed a bison tube or two as swag, no obligation.  

 

We did the same, and what I went through just a little while ago (the last promotions), I'm not doing it anymore.   

These folks received most as gifts in an Easter egg hunt (we gave prizes for eggs),  and most would have been NA today if the "CO" didn't archive 'em en masse himself.

We saw new folks that won a stocked cache at an event auction look for a spot to place it in that park that day .   

[+funkymunkyzone]

46 minutes ago, Touchstone said:

Sounds like you might need to find some better informed friends who take a bit more time researching the "why's" before bolting to social media to feed their angst.

 

Wow, the discussion just took a sudden turn there...  I don't see a lot of angst in the quote in the original post, just an announcement that the person had learned something they did not previously know.  You know people are allowed to disagree about something, and/or talk about it, and it doesn't make them angsty or bad people that should be de-friended.

Edited January 23, 2020 by funkymunkyzone

[+Ragnemalm]

 

9 hours ago, JohnCNA said:

One of my friends had this to say on Facebook today. I don't understand the logic and wonder what the back story about this might be. He's not a power trail hider, so it's puzzling. 

 

PSA: I learned something new (to me) last night. Groundspeak doesn't want us to encourage others to place geocaches. I submitted a new cache which is stocked with ready made caches and in the description suggested people take one and place it. Not allowed.

 

I would call this an error from the reviewer, or an error in the rules.

 

1) The cache encouraged finders to place their own. Suggested. It did not require it. Not a requirement, not an ALR.

2) How can geocaching be a disallowed agenda for geocaches??? Isn't the "agenda" rule to avoid propaganda for irrelevant activities? Besides, there are thousands of caches with agendas only in my region! Have you ever seen a mystery about a rock band? Of course it wants to promote the band! Or yet another online jigsaw with a photo of a nice tourist location? Agendas, agendas, just as strong as this. This rule needs to be clarified and focused on the actual problem it wants to solve.

[+Isonzo Karst]

Early in the game I found a foot locker full of ammo cans, each with stash note taped into the inside lid, baggied log and pencil. No swag.

Nothing on the cache page about it. Nothing.  I thought it was pretty cool.  

 

Now I think it less cool,  because if the only thing stopping someone from hiding a cache is their ability to purchase a container, then they probably shouldn't be hiding.

 

Still, foot locker, full of ammo cans... opening it was a hoot. (Locker wasn't particularly water tight, but didn't need to be.)

[Keystone]

4 hours ago, Ragnemalm said:

This rule needs to be clarified and focused on the actual problem it wants to solve.

 

Thank goodness that the Geocache Hiding Guidelines and the related Help Center articles expressly cover (1) encouragement to hide more caches being considered an agenda, and (2) the "pop culture" exception to the commercialism guideline that permits caches themed around sports teams, movie characters, etc.

 

The reviewer in question is following that published guidance.

[+hzoi]

I've put out caches with other cache containers in them, as recently as last year, with the hope that someone would use them to hide a cache.  I just didn't mention it on the cache page, or even in the cache log.  I didn't see them in the cache when I checked back, so perhaps they are being used as I intended.

 

(Perhaps after I move, the cacher who stole some of our ammo can caches will place them out as new hides as well.  While obviously I'd prefer it if they had not been stolen in the first place, the best I can hope for at this point is that they be used for geocaches.)

Edited January 23, 2020 by hzoi

[+L0ne.R]

5 hours ago, Ragnemalm said:

 

 

I would call this an error from the reviewer, or an error in the rules.

 

1) The cache encouraged finders to place their own. Suggested. It did not require it. Not a requirement, not an ALR.

2) How can geocaching be a disallowed agenda for geocaches??? Isn't the "agenda" rule to avoid propaganda for irrelevant activities? Besides, there are thousands of caches with agendas only in my region! Have you ever seen a mystery about a rock band? Of course it wants to promote the band! Or yet another online jigsaw with a photo of a nice tourist location? Agendas, agendas, just as strong as this. This rule needs to be clarified and focused on the actual problem it wants to solve.

 

 

Gathering the reasons listed so far as to why seed caches were/are a bad idea:

• I'd just as soon not see a flood of new urban pill bottles anyway. 
• Not everyone is cut out to be a cache owner.
• Some finders felt guilty if they didn't hide one of the cache containers when they found the cache.  This resulted in some more crappy cache placements.
• This is especially bad when the containers are not so great for placement in the wilds.  Such as pill bottles wrapped in tape.
•  ...avoid encouraging people who are not ready to own geocaches from hiding geocaches for reasons other than the desire to own and maintain a geocache.
• ...giving out containers does carry with it a bit of a moral obligation on the recipient to use them.
• ...lead to a devolution of crappy cache containers in questionable locations.
• [Didn't] improved the game in the slightest.
• We saw new folks that won a stocked cache at an event auction look for a spot to place it in that park that day . 
• If the only thing stopping someone from hiding a cache is their ability to purchase a container, then they probably shouldn't be hiding.

 

 

[+L0ne.R]

8 minutes ago, hzoi said:

I've put out caches with other cache containers in them

 

What did you use as "seed" containers? 

[+hzoi]

2 hours ago, Isonzo Karst said:

if the only thing stopping someone from hiding a cache is their ability to purchase a container, then they probably shouldn't be hiding

 

That's a fair point.  Though I would rebut that I've found some caches that were overall decent (good puzzle, or good location, or even both) except for a poor choice in cache container, like a leaky pill bottle. 

 

If even one of the PET preforms/PETlings I've put in caches as swag has been used to make a decent cache in lieu of a leaky pill bottle (or leaky soup container, or leaky and rusty mint tin, and so on), then I think it was worth putting them all out there.

[+hzoi]

Just now, L0ne.R said:

10 minutes ago, hzoi said:

I've put out caches with other cache containers in them

 

What did you use as "seed" containers? 

 

Typically one of these:

 

 

[+L0ne.R]

4 minutes ago, hzoi said:

 

Typically one of these:

 

 

 

That's the best I've seen for micros.  I'm impressed. You spent some money. 

In my area it was typically film canisters, back then you could get a free sackfull of them at the drug store. 

[+Touchstone]

9 hours ago, funkymunkyzone said:

Wow, the discussion just took a sudden turn there... 

I'm not fond of forum topic titles that state a conclusion before the facts are discussed.

[+cerberus1]

2 hours ago, Isonzo Karst said:

Early in the game I found a foot locker full of ammo cans, each with stash note taped into the inside lid, baggied log and pencil. No swag.

Nothing on the cache page about it. Nothing.  I thought it was pretty cool.  

Now I think it less cool,  because if the only thing stopping someone from hiding a cache is their ability to purchase a container, then they probably shouldn't be hiding.

Still, foot locker, full of ammo cans... opening it was a hoot. (Locker wasn't particularly water tight, but didn't need to be.)

 

That is very cool !   We still have a lot, but wouldn't think to leave a pile for others.    

We're pretty-much the last to use those long-term containers here, I feel maybe because many aren't thinking that far into the future.

 

One funny one happened SW of us once.  Guy put out one of those "which one is the log?" ammo can fulla film cans.

Folks (new people mostly) started grabbing the film cans, and a few parks had brand-new caches placed.  

Made it a bit easier for folks to find later. 

 

Edited January 23, 2020 by cerberus1
redundantredundant

[+hzoi]

1 minute ago, L0ne.R said:

That's the best I've seen for micros.  I'm impressed. You spent some money. 

 

I don't remember how much it was, but I got a box of a bunch (50? 100?) with lids back in 2008.  I've used many, and reuse them every time I move.  I've probably given a couple dozen away.  And I am sure I have a couple dozen left in the box they came in.

 

I don't recall it being that expensive when I bought it.  The same ones are selling for 4.25 euro for a set of 5 here, which is likely where I got 'em back then.  (I still have the box, I suppose I could check the label.)

 

I want to get a few "XXL PETlings" before I move -  looks like the blank is for larger juice containers, rather than the normal PETling, which is the blank for a 0.5L or so bottle.  End product is about the same size as a decon container, but better against water; and 10 euros for a set of five, not a bad deal! But I don't think I'll give those away.

 

[+HunterandSamuel]

13 hours ago, kunarion said:

have occasionally placed a bison tube or two as swag, no obligation

 

I have left bison tubes, rock and nano caches for FTF cachers. Is that allowed? 

[+cerberus1]

9 minutes ago, Touchstone said:

I'm not fond of forum topic titles that state a conclusion before the facts are discussed.

 

Especially when it can't be true...     

[+on4bam]

15 minutes ago, Touchstone said:

I'm not fond of forum topic titles that state a conclusion before the facts are discussed.

It's not a conclusion, there's a questionmark at the end of the sentence.

 

[+thebruce0]

10 minutes ago, on4bam said:

26 minutes ago, Touchstone said:

I'm not fond of forum topic titles that state a conclusion before the facts are discussed.

It's not a conclusion, there's a questionmark at the end of the sentence.

"When did you stop beating your wife?"

[+on4bam]

9 minutes ago, HunterandSamuel said:

 

I have left bison tubes, rock and nano caches for FTF cachers. Is that allowed? 

 

You can just do that and put a note in the cache without mentioning it in the listing. That way no one can claim there's an agenda.

 

 

[+on4bam]

Just now, thebruce0 said:

"When did you stop beating your wife?"

Who says I stopped (or even started)?

 

[+thebruce0]

19 minutes ago, on4bam said:

21 minutes ago, thebruce0 said:

"When did you stop beating your wife?"

Who says I stopped (or even started)?

Exactly the point.

 

48 minutes ago, Touchstone said:

I'm not fond of forum topic titles that state a conclusion before the facts are discussed.

 

[+HunterandSamuel]

32 minutes ago, on4bam said:

 

You can just do that and put a note in the cache without mentioning it in the listing. That way no one can claim there's an agenda.

 

 

 

Ah, good advice. Thanks.

[+coachstahly]

I frequently include containers in my caches as swag without ever mentioning it in my description.  It's not to encourage new hides, but rather to clear out some excess stuff I've been given that I typically won't place myself or don't have any immediate plans to put out.  It has included bison tubes, bison tube inserts, dog tags, copper garden tags, smaller lock-n-lock style containers, diabetes test strip containers, screw top false bottom medical vials, PETs, the two bottle cap containers and yes, even the occasional pill bottle I tend to be given at events where such things are given away.

[+TeamRabbitRun]

2 hours ago, thebruce0 said:

"When did you stop beating your wife?"

 

No, you got that old line wrong. If you ask "When did you stop", the question is asking for a time reference. A perfectly acceptable answer is "Never started"; an indirect time reference.

 

But, if you ask, "Do you STILL beat your wife," then the only possible direct answers are "Yes" and "No", and somebody's sleeping on the couch.

 

I watch too much "Law & Order".

[Keystone]

I think we can wrap up the side conversation about catch phrase lines, and get back to discussing the Cache Hiding Guidelines' stance on requiring or encouraging the placement of new caches.  Thanks.

[+frostengel]

21 hours ago, JohnCNA said:

He just thought it might encourage others if he supplied a few free containers. 

 

I have a completely different idea: Your friend could make a multi cache about different cache containers with different containers at each stage. So he could give the geocachers new ideas without giving them a container indirectly saying "hide it, hide it". It is always better (in my eyes) to make WANT to hide a cache then LET them do so. And that would be a much more encouraging idea and more fun then just providing them with (usually) micro containers...

 

By the way: He can still provide the boxes in the final. Why does he have to write that in the listing?

And another by the way: I don't like the thread title. It should be more like "Groundspeak doesn't want us to make others hide new caches?" and that is something completely different!

 

Best wishes

Jochen

[+JohnCNA]

20 hours ago, Keystone said:

.... 

Let people hide caches if and when they want to do so.  Geocaching HQ does want people to hide caches when they are motivated to do so.  Hopefully that's more of the good ones and fewer of the crappy ones.

Thanks for the explation of the reasoning behind that. Makes sense. The original response had some of us puzzled as to the thought process behind that ruling. 

[Keystone]

@JohnCNA - I am so glad you were receptive to my best attempt at an honest explanation!  Too often, people just post rants and leave, or never move off their point.  

 

We don't learn anything if we don't listen to people with different views.

 

Responses like yours help keep me posting.  There are days when I wonder why I bother.

[+BethDaddyKaty]

I would say a cache container is like the "signature" of a CO. As such I wouldn't appreciate being given a container with the *expectation* I should hide it.

 

That may be miserable but it's like a friend finding out you need a car and buying one for you - really kind, but probably not at all the type of car you want. I was "given" an automatic car once by a well meaning friend who was leaving the country because it was newer than my car - I had to pretend for ages I was enjoying driving it when actually I gave it away as quickly as I could 

[+JohnCNA]

5 minutes ago, Keystone said:

@JohnCNA - I am so glad you were receptive to my best attempt at an honest explanation!  Too often, people just post rants and leave, or never move off their point.  

 

We don't learn anything if we don't listen to people with different views.

 

Responses like yours help keep me posting.  There are days when I wonder why I bother.

No problem. There was no anger or angst intended, just puzzlement. And just to add some more clarification, my friend wasn't ranting. He posted his thought in a closed geocaching discussion group because he was puzzled by it. He's a pretty laid back charter member and never ran into that restriction before. I found it puzzling as well, until we had talked it out here.

[+funkymunkyzone]

20 minutes ago, BethDaddyKaty said:

I was "given" an automatic car once by a well meaning friend who was leaving the country because it was newer than my car - I had to pretend for ages I was enjoying driving it when actually I gave it away as quickly as I could 

Can I be your friend? 

[+BethDaddyKaty]

3 minutes ago, funkymunkyzone said:

Can I be your friend? 

If I get any more sodding automatic cars, you'll be first on my list.

[+HunterandSamuel]

22 hours ago, coachstahly said:

the two bottle cap containers and yes, even the occasional pill bottle I tend to be given at events where such things are given away.

 

Great ideas. I have lots of empty pill bottles (will wash them out)! Bottle cap containers are neat looking.  We have found a few already. Some look homemade. Is there a thread on how to make them? 

 

 

[+coachstahly]

26 minutes ago, HunterandSamuel said:

 

Great ideas. I have lots of empty pill bottles (will wash them out)! Bottle cap containers are neat looking.  We have found a few already. Some look homemade. Is there a thread on how to make them? 

 

 

 

 

Personally, I'd stay away from pill bottles and suggest others do to.  The only way I've truly found them to be decent containers are if they are within a larger container and contain the log.

 

Edited January 24, 2020 by coachstahly

[+HunterandSamuel]

1 minute ago, coachstahly said:

 

 

 

Thank you!!!!