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BethDaddyKaty

Will Groundspeak ever introduce paperless logging?

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7 minutes ago, barefootjeff said:

 

Hmm, my immediate thought is that, with the physical log signing, the CO has the logbook as evidence if they suspect armchair logging is happening. But if a CO suspects copied QR codes, what recourse would they have?

 

A CO has always had the ability to delete a log if they believe it to be bogus.   In fact, the current guidelines state that a cache owner is responsible for deleting "logs that appear to be false or inappropriate,"   The guidelines don't define what "appear to be false" means and leaves it up to the cache owner to make that determination.   If a cache owner suspects a finder used a copy of the QR code rather than scanning the one in the cache,  it would be within their rights to not accept the QR code scan and delete the found it log.  

 

'Course GS could also build the QR code scanner into their app, which could also ensure that the scan took place at the location of the cache.

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If a CO thought that their QR code was being shared online they could just print a new QR code and instantly change it when they swap it in the cache.

 

If you think people are posting fake logs or discovering trackables, then you don't have any recourse beyond manually deleting logs - which requires frequent, ongoing log book checks.

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Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, BethDaddyKaty said:

If a CO thought that their QR code was being shared online they could just print a new QR code and instantly change it when they swap it in the cache.

 

If you think people are posting fake logs or discovering trackables, then you don't have any recourse beyond manually deleting logs - which requires frequent, ongoing log book checks.

 

What do you mean by frequent? Few weeks ago I checked one logbook several years after I hid the cache. I removed three unsigned logs.

Edited by arisoft
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37 minutes ago, BethDaddyKaty said:

manually deleting logs - which requires frequent, ongoing log book checks.

No it doesn't. The log can be checked during normal cache maintenance. I recently removed six logs from two caches and some of the logs were over a year old. If you don't sign my logs I will delete your log someday, but it will happen. However during normal cache maintenance. How often a cache and log needs checking varies from cache to cache.

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On 1/6/2020 at 8:40 PM, EggsTheBest said:

How do complete tasks that require taking a picture? Do you bring polaroid/DSLR camera? Serious question

 

On holiday I always have my DSLR with me, I've carried a cheap camera with me for years and when they stopped working (never buy a camera with a lens that pops out!) I had my GoPro with me. Now I use an old cellphone (without SIM, no extra apps) just for caching. I take pictures of all WPs anyway, saves me going back if an error was made.

 

On 1/6/2020 at 9:39 PM, HunterandSamuel said:

I agree. I have never met a cacher in my area that doesn't use a cell. 

 

Come see me when we're out on a caching trip ;)

 

On 1/6/2020 at 11:38 PM, NYPaddleCacher said:

 

Many do.   Some also consider not finding every cache to be a viable option.  

 

Yup, Not the first cache we walk by a cache (sometimes even seeing the hiding spot or camouflage )

 

On 1/7/2020 at 2:00 AM, Korichnovui said:


yes, doing 1 Wherigo was enough for me! I also have a sort of goal to try to create as many different kinds of caches as I can, so I did look into making a Wherigo, but decided not to pursue it.

 

We have done great Wherigo's (done 76 so far) but then again, we like caches with "something more" and have almost no interest in "plain vanilla" traditionals.

 

In any case, ideas like this (QR log) come up every once in a while and the conclusion is always the same... bad idea. The most obvious argument against it is that codes will be shared and that was proved by the fake logs on trackables. Having a QR to log a cache will make fake logging caches even easier.

 

 

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On 1/5/2020 at 6:42 PM, BethDaddyKaty said:

Secondly, it would allow nano caches not to use those annoying rolls which take five minutes to roll up.

I just came up with a great idea to fix this problem on my two nanos hidden, the tiny black nanos. The next time I replace their logs, I'm going to cut the log in half. This way, the roll is smaller and takes less time to roll up and will fit better in the nano container. Maybe I'll do it sooner if spaces are still left to sign. 

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1 hour ago, on4bam said:

Come see me when we're out on a caching trip ;)

 

LOL I told the story here of my brother-in-law and his wife who live in another State. They geocached years ago before gps was used, maybe before geocaching.com was formed. They used only a compass. 

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4 hours ago, BethDaddyKaty said:

If you think people are posting fake logs or discovering trackables, then you don't have any recourse beyond manually deleting logs - which requires frequent, ongoing log book checks.

 

Why frequent ?  Our last two "5" hides get only a couple visitors a year.  A fake log gets deleted when I do maintenance. 

That may be once or twice a year, or next year.  

 

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2 hours ago, HunterandSamuel said:

 

LOL I told the story here of my brother-in-law and his wife who live in another State. They geocached years ago before gps was used, maybe before geocaching.com was formed. They used only a compass. 

Do you mean the three months between when the first stash (now cache) was hidden and when Geocaching.com was started?  That's the only time frame that you could cache that was before Geocaching.com - and then it was the GPS Stash Hunt.  The "stash" name was dropped because of the association with drug stashes, and the term 'geocache' was coined

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32 minutes ago, The Jester said:
3 hours ago, HunterandSamuel said:

 

LOL I told the story here of my brother-in-law and his wife who live in another State. They geocached years ago before gps was used, maybe before geocaching.com was formed. They used only a compass. 

Do you mean the three months between when the first stash (now cache) was hidden and when Geocaching.com was started?  That's the only time frame that you could cache that was before Geocaching.com - and then it was the GPS Stash Hunt.  The "stash" name was dropped because of the association with drug stashes, and the term 'geocache' was coined

 

Sounds like Letterboxing

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, L0ne.R said:

 

 

Sounds like Letterboxing

 

Not only sounds... practically all features was copied from Letterboxing to Geocaching. Including virtual caches and trackables and actual letteboxes were adopted to letterbox type geocaches.

Edited by arisoft

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4 hours ago, The Jester said:

Do you mean the three months between when the first stash (now cache) was hidden and when Geocaching.com was started?  That's the only time frame that you could cache that was before Geocaching.com - and then it was the GPS Stash Hunt.  The "stash" name was dropped because of the association with drug stashes, and the term 'geocache' was coined

I'll have to ask them when they did the caching. 

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3 hours ago, L0ne.R said:

 

 

Sounds like Letterboxing

It just might be. Thanks for that link. I put in their town and State and sure enough...letterboxing is still active! 

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Or just run of the mill orienteering, finding control points. There of course the skill isn't in finding the cache, it's merely navigating to a certain point.

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On 1/5/2020 at 6:09 PM, IceColdUK said:


This is the killer.  Just seen a post on FB about a page sharing almost 8000 Trackable codes.  The same would happen inevitably with QR codes for cache logging.

The QR codes could be fenced, like adventure lab locations.

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9 hours ago, TerraViators said:

The QR codes could be fenced, like adventure lab locations.

Um, no.

 

If anybody actually cared about Adventure Labs the fencing would be defeated pretty much instantly.  Luckily, nobody cares.

 

Simple rule of cyber-security:  you can't control hardware you don't own.

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On 1/7/2020 at 11:26 AM, L0ne.R said:

 

You don't carry a smartphone with you when you geocache? 

I'm so stuck to mine I don't think I'd go caching without it, even if I had my Garmin GPS with me. I consider it a safety device. Even in remote areas. I've seen those movies where the guy is lost in the middle of nowhere but manages to get a signal on a hillside to call for help. 

 

I haven't used my Garmin 62s in years. The maps are outdated, I don't know if I want to deal with the hassle of downloading to it.  I do most of my geocaching on the fly now and love the access to updated maps and to up-to-the-minute listings and logs.  

 

I usually take a photo of the cache I find and often things I find interesting along the way. I'd rather not deal with an additional unnecessary camera for snapshots and documenting. 

 

I probably should carry both a smartphone and GPS for safety and backup though. 

 

What I carry or don't carry shouldn't concern you. I realize that many of you like to sensationalize and exaggerate the posts of others just so you have an opportunity to extend threads for days and days but you all know I was referring to the notion of geocaching evolving into game that was predominantly or strictly required cell phone use. There is no doubt that the geo-stalkers here have already seen that my profile contains Wherigo and Adventure Lab finds.

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On ‎1‎/‎7‎/‎2020 at 12:26 PM, L0ne.R said:

You don't carry a smartphone with you when you geocache? 

I'm so stuck to mine I don't think I'd go caching without it, even if I had my Garmin GPS with me. I consider it a safety device. Even in remote areas. I've seen those movies where the guy is lost in the middle of nowhere but manages to get a signal on a hillside to call for help. 

 

I haven't used my Garmin 62s in years. The maps are outdated, I don't know if I want to deal with the hassle of downloading to it.  I do most of my geocaching on the fly now and love the access to updated maps and to up-to-the-minute listings and logs.  

 

I usually take a photo of the cache I find and often things I find interesting along the way. I'd rather not deal with an additional unnecessary camera for snapshots and documenting. 

I probably should carry both a smartphone and GPS for safety and backup though. 

 

That's a big surprise to anyone ?

Between the both of us, we've had every operating system.   I've had phone interconnects in the car when she was in school.  :D

The other 2/3rds deals with all medias for a living.

 - I'd like to enjoy myself in the woods and get away from that carp for a while, thanks.   :)

I still have a sorta-smart phone, and looked at it a couple days ago. 

Folks know that if they want me, they call.  

Will carry one of the spare rugby flips with no data, and only answer those folks in the address book.  Things are almost bomb-proof. 

 

I still use a long-discontinued 60csx, with it's original OEM map.  It finds caches.

My little point n shoot (canon powershot) takes good photos, but I haven't shared any lately. 

It sits with more than enough room in a tiny camera / bushcraft bag.

 

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, bflentje said:

 

What I carry or don't carry shouldn't concern you. I realize that many of you like to sensationalize and exaggerate the posts of others just so you have an opportunity to extend threads for days and days but you all know I was referring to the notion of geocaching evolving into game that was predominantly or strictly required cell phone use. There is no doubt that the geo-stalkers here have already seen that my profile contains Wherigo and Adventure Lab finds.

 

I get it. I don't want to see the game become completely smartphone-centric either. 

 

So much has changed over the years. The game isn't what it started off as. In my area it started as a fun recreational activity for tech-savvy computer guys to use as an excuse to buy a cool gps gadget. (Well at least with my husband it was his reason to get a Garmin GPSV :). He lost interest in fidning geocaches after about 6 months but I'm still at it.). 

 

I didn't want to see this recreational family activity become a numbers game but it has. Having a paperless option fits in with the power-trail-style transformation of the game. 

 

Personally I'd use a lab-cache-style cache type option that only logs a cache when the smartphone is at the location (something like the old CHIRP option). That way all group finders will have to go to the location. I quit hiding caches the week I got an inbox full of over 50 cut n paste logs from a group who thanked [cache owner username] for my contribution to their record breaking day of  non-trad collecting to qualify for several challenges. Only a couple of people actually visited my cache. 

 

But I can see the concern that if this option or QR codes, were available, all COs might use it. 

Edited by L0ne.R
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On 1/7/2020 at 6:19 PM, NYPaddleCacher said:

A CO has always had the ability to delete a log if they believe it to be bogus.   In fact, the current guidelines state that a cache owner is responsible for deleting "logs that appear to be false or inappropriate,"   The guidelines don't define what "appear to be false" means and leaves it up to the cache owner to make that determination.   If a cache owner suspects a finder used a copy of the QR code rather than scanning the one in the cache,  it would be within their rights to not accept the QR code scan and delete the found it log. 

You're suggesting the CO be able to delete logs based on suspicion? I'm all for giving COs more power, but that seems like an enormous step backwards in the balance of power. It's not perfect, but at least the current system has the log as physical evidence.

 

On 1/8/2020 at 3:32 AM, BethDaddyKaty said:

If a CO thought that their QR code was being shared online they could just print a new QR code and instantly change it when they swap it in the cache.

If the CO's willing to run out to the physical cache whenever the QR code is compromised, then they should be willing to run out whenever the physical log needs to be replaced. For that CO, the problem QR codes are solving has already been solved.

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One thing no one has commented on is the security concerns with QR codes. While a QR code is just data, and not executable, as NYPaddleCacher pointed out, they can contain embedded URL's. Which can lead to malicious web sites. To counter this, everyone that uses QR codes needs to take precautions. Yet how many people actually do?

 

A quick FB posting of QR codes purporting to be from geocaches, and the cyber criminals have a new attack path.

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5 hours ago, Wet Pancake Touring Club said:

One thing no one has commented on is the security concerns with QR codes. While a QR code is just data, and not executable, as NYPaddleCacher pointed out, they can contain embedded URL's. Which can lead to malicious web sites. To counter this, everyone that uses QR codes needs to take precautions. Yet how many people actually do?

 

A quick FB posting of QR codes purporting to be from geocaches, and the cyber criminals have a new attack path.

 

They would be entering the QR code into a GCing app or website, which any sensible designer should coding to check is in the expected format and not just opening any random text.

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At first, I thought the OP was joking with this thread. Then I remembered he is a relatively new geocacher, and may not know about the QR code game that millions (or a few hundred thousand) smartphone users play. I would suspect that company has some sort of a claim on that QR Code game that would preclude Groundspeak from doing the same thing.

 

if the op wants to know what qr code game we are talking about, Maybe he can look it up. it could be Useful to check google play, Not to preclude the app store. Zoinks, they don't have a version for windows phone. Everyone can play that qr code game, Except those without smartphones.

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On 1/5/2020 at 3:42 PM, BethDaddyKaty said:

I appreciate this may raise strong opinions but... isn't it time Groundspeak offered the option of a category for paperless caches?

 

 

 

NO!

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Oh my, it has returned! The QR log!

 

On 1/6/2020 at 4:02 PM, elyob said:

Groundspeak is certainly pushing us in the direction of smart-phone dependency.

 

Actually the world is doing that. Groundspeak is trying to be relevant to the shift in the culture.  In doing so it can have an effect on those in the hobby who haven't yet adopted the cultural shift, but of course there are many who do not want to adopt that smartphone culture. So HQ has to find a balance, and that's why geocaching can still be done entirely without a smartphone.  But adopting new smartphone-needed experiences is not the same as actively pushing others out.

 

That said... There are clearly activists on either side of the debate - the never-smartphoners and the smartphone-all-the-thingers.  Right now, geocaching in comfortably in the middle.  It is possible to have the best of both worlds right now.

 

 

As for the QR thing - there are many technical hurdles you haven't thought through in getting something like this even implemented, let alone perfected.  But someone has done all the work.  Ya know who?  That other game-that-shall-not-be-mentioned.  And it took them a LONG time to get there.

When they started out, they used QR codes that were the URL to the listing. That's it. Unique QR codes per listing, but just the URL. Scan it within 1000ft and you would 'claim' the find. Immediately that was abused. The code was not secret or secure, you could print one out and your device within the radius, scan it and claim it. That is, if you didn't use a location spoofer. It was 1000ft because the lower end phones didn't have good accuracy and it was mostly played in urban areas with signal bounce.  In time the radius was reduced. I repeatedly mentioned during that early phase that there should be a unique code so people couldn't just print their own QRs for listings they wanted to capture. It took forever for that suggestion to be implemented. So there's your unique, secret QR code.

 

That game has already faced all the hurdles raised in this thread, and more, and come up with technical solutions to find a status quo where the reward for cheating doesn't (to the general crowd) outweigh the fun of playing. Delayed claiming (when found where there's no data signal), GPS location verification quirks, location spoofing, unique QR content, log disputing... ALL of that would have to be handled once again if HQ were to implement QR logging.

 

It's exactly the same.

 

Did you know... Geocaching Challenges, just before they were chopped off at the neck, were just about to implement QR-code based challenges? It was a 'coming soon' feature, to hide a QR code, and have the dedicated app scan it to complete the challenge. This was at the same time that other game was perfecting their version.

 

Rightly so, Geocaching HQ stuck to focusing on what they did well - the physical location aspect of geocache container finding (or a few virtualized exceptions that didn't have the same hurdles this technological functionality faces)

 

I'm a smartphone-exclusive geocacher. And I can't put my vote in for QR code logging. I've seen the concept grow and evolve and be implemented, and it's just not right for Geocaching proper.  (and I'm not a huge fan of Adventure Labs either, btw, but they have their place and it's mostly a satellite side-game with the only tie in to the main site being a +1 for every codeword entered; something which still bugs me, but on principle, because it doesn't affect me in my geocaching at all =P)  QR codes as an alternative logging method will affect the core geocaching hobby.

So no thank you.

 

 

Oh and ETA: Many dedicated GPSrs also have cameras built in, for people who don't carry their phone or a dedicated camera with them ;)

Edited by thebruce0
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On 1/10/2020 at 7:51 PM, K13 said:

At first, I thought the OP was joking with this thread. Then I remembered he is a relatively new geocacher, and may not know about the QR code game that millions (or a few hundred thousand) smartphone users play. I would suspect that company has some sort of a claim on that QR Code game that would preclude Groundspeak from doing the same thing.

This is a good point, but I suspect if GS suddenly thought this was a good idea, Those Other Guys would be happy to join GS if the terms were right. But let's hope we never find out 'cuz I think that other game's kinda lame. It has all the same problems Virtual geocaches did that led to them being abandoned, yet they have none of the advantages.

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Interesting this topic has come back up.

 

The other night I found two caches. Both 35mm film canisters. One the log was sodden, almost full but just about usable. One the log book was shredded.

 

I wonder as time goes on, the average age if caches increases, and more and more cache owners drop out, many caches simply wont have paper logs to sign.

 

So.as caches rarely seem to get archived if the container is still there albeit decrepit, then caching will increasingly be deciding to log a find because you found a piece of plastic that was a functioning cache.

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4 minutes ago, BethDaddyKaty said:

So.as caches rarely seem to get archived if the container is still there albeit decrepit, then caching will increasingly be deciding to log a find because you found a piece of plastic that was a functioning cache.

 

What should happen is a NM gets logged on a wet log, then if the CO doesn't maintain the cache a reviewer will post a note and if that is ignored a TD. Eventually the cache gets archived. Around here, one month after the NM a reviewer steps in and next steps have a 1 month interval. Without a CO's intervention a cache generally doesn't survive 3 months after a NM.

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1 hour ago, BethDaddyKaty said:

Interesting this topic has come back up.

 

The other night I found two caches. Both 35mm film canisters. One the log was sodden, almost full but just about usable. One the log book was shredded.

 

I wonder as time goes on, the average age if caches increases, and more and more cache owners drop out, many caches simply wont have paper logs to sign.

 

So.as caches rarely seem to get archived if the container is still there albeit decrepit, then caching will increasingly be deciding to log a find because you found a piece of plastic that was a functioning cache.

You did log the Needs Maintenance, right? How would a cacher do that in your qr code logging method?

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11 minutes ago, K13 said:

You did log the Needs Maintenance, right? How would a cacher do that in your qr code logging method?

Shredded one was NM in April 2019.

 

The damp one I didn't log because if I logged every 35mm with a damp log as NM, I'd be logging 100% of them. They don't stay watertight around here. Logging NM due to the CO's choice of cache container seems somewhat pointless.

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30 minutes ago, BethDaddyKaty said:

Shredded one was NM in April 2019.

 

The damp one I didn't log because if I logged every 35mm with a damp log as NM, I'd be logging 100% of them. They don't stay watertight around here. Logging NM due to the CO's choice of cache container seems somewhat pointless.

In your new qr code logging game, how would you alert the owner if the qr code was sodden to the point of being illegible?

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15 minutes ago, K13 said:

In your new qr code logging game, how would you alert the owner if the qr code was sodden to the point of being illegible?

Firstly, if you're going to the effort of doing a QR code the expectation should be that it is laminated or printed onto waterproof paper.

 

However, even without in my experience damp logs are damaged by people trying to write on it. QR codes have significant redundancy, up to 30% of the code can be illegible before it can't be read.

 

If QR codes become a thing will there eventually be QR codes that can't be read? Of course. But it should be less than unusable paper logs due to damage/being full. And, more to the point, we're not trying to replicate a perfect system. If paper logs were always 100% usable then of course anything less than 100% QR reliability would be problematic, but around here at least 10% of paper logs aren't usable.

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4 hours ago, BethDaddyKaty said:

The other night I found two caches. Both 35mm film canisters. One the log was sodden, almost full but just about usable. One the log book was shredded.

 

I wonder as time goes on, the average age if caches increases, and more and more cache owners drop out, many caches simply wont have paper logs to sign.

 

 

Thankfully most caches aren't film canisters. This one is eleven years old, still the original container and the original logbook which is neither damp nor shredded.

 

GC1K67W.jpg.3a90a9d5f5805e8621c8b6aeeeb5562f.jpg

 

I find such caches are more the norm than the exception for bushland hides. Decrepit caches can be dealt with through NM and NA logs. The good ones just get better with age :).

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I have found and DNFed thousands of caches.  I have captured and failed-to-capture thousands of munzees.  Where I live, soggy paper survives better than laminated QR codes.

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23 hours ago, thebruce0 said:

That said... There are clearly activists on either side of the debate - the never-smartphoners and the smartphone-all-the-thingers.  Right now, geocaching in comfortably in the middle.  It is possible to have the best of both worlds right now.

 

 

I hope they keep it that way.  I love signing paper logs in the caches we find. Gives me such a sense of accomplishment. It just wouldn't be the same feeling if signing a find electronically. 

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14 hours ago, BethDaddyKaty said:

The damp one I didn't log because if I logged every 35mm with a damp log as NM, I'd be logging 100% of them. They don't stay watertight around here.

 

I've only found one 35mm with a damp log. But that's because a crack in the lid seeped in water. A highway cache out in the open.  We camo duct taped the lid to help out the CO. The geocaching.com film canister we own, we never had a problem with the log getting damp.  

 

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10 hours ago, barefootjeff said:

 

 

10 hours ago, barefootjeff said:

 

Thankfully most caches aren't film canisters. This one is eleven years old, still the original container and the original logbook which is neither damp nor shredded.

 

GC1K67W.jpg.3a90a9d5f5805e8621c8b6aeeeb5562f.jpg

 

 

 

 

 

 

A lock-in-lock still in excellent condition after 11 years. I knew they were good solid containers. Bandaids as swag? What an excellent idea. I would place it in a dispenser similar to this. .34 cents each. 

 

 

bandaides.jpg

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7 hours ago, HunterandSamuel said:

 

A lock-in-lock still in excellent condition after 11 years. I knew they were good solid containers. Bandaids as swag? What an excellent idea. I would place it in a dispenser similar to this. .34 cents each. 

 

 

bandaides.jpg

I've been grateful once or twice to find a Band Aid in a cache, just after wading through blackberries or cutty grass.

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On 1/5/2020 at 6:42 PM, BethDaddyKaty said:

Secondly, it would allow nano caches not to use those annoying rolls which take five minutes to roll up.

 

 

Have you ever tried folding a nano log instead of rolling i up?
Unroll.
fold in half
fold in half again.

repeat until small enough to fit in nano lid.
 

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13 hours ago, Great Scott! said:

Have you ever tried folding a nano log instead of rolling i up?
Unroll.
fold in half
fold in half again.

repeat until small enough to fit in nano lid.

 

I might micro-fold 1mm of the tip, but then roll it by sliding it between the thumb and index a few times until it's done, then hold it in my other hand between thumb and finger putting pressure on the central core of the roll, then gently pull the end to tighten the entire roll until it's small enough to fit into the nano. That's the fastest and most cacher-friendly method I've found, imo.  Folding can take up additional space with the physics of the bend in the paper. Most often these nano logs are just the right length to fit in extremely snug as a roll. Folded nano logs tend to be shorter or ripped because of the space needed to accommodate the fold(s).

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14 hours ago, Great Scott! said:

 

 

Have you ever tried folding a nano log instead of rolling i up?
Unroll.
fold in half
fold in half again.

repeat until small enough to fit in nano lid.
 

 

I'll have to try this, practice on my extra log that came with the nanos. I've even thought of cutting the log in half (my log, not others) and rolling it up. Then replace with the other half when the log is filled with signatures. 

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  • HunterandSamuel
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On 1/22/2020 at 8:23 PM, Great Scott! said:

 

 

Have you ever tried folding a nano log instead of rolling i up?
Unroll.
fold in half
fold in half again.

repeat until small enough to fit in nano lid.
 

 

I'll have to try this, practice on my extra log that came with the nanos. I've even thought of cutting the log in half (my log, not others) and rolling it up. Then replace with the other half when the log is filled with signatures. 

 

 

I'll look forward to your experience.  My thought is that you will never get it folded small enough.

 

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15 minutes ago, fuzziebear3 said:

I'll look forward to your experience.  My thought is that you will never get it folded small enough.

 

I decided not to try it. lol Didn't want to ruin a new log in case it didn't work. 

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On 1/22/2020 at 8:23 PM, Great Scott! said:

Have you ever tried folding a nano log instead of rolling i up?

 

I tried that once with a Micro match tube.  I though it would be easier for finders than unrolling-rolling, so I designed a long thin strip and folded it so it dropped right into the tube.  Then on a maintenance run, I found it rolled up and crammed into the bottom, now so far out of reach it was hard to extract.  :rolleyes:

 

 

Edited by kunarion
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On 1/5/2020 at 6:21 PM, MartyBartfast said:

So can only be placed in a place with  a reliable phone signal, what if you place it where EE have good coverage, but I come along on O2 and can't get a signal - I'm gonna be pretty p'd off particularly if I've made an effort to go out up on the hills to grab it.

 

Not to mention that some people don't even bring devices when they go caching with others.  I was out with my son recently--we used my device to get to GZ, and then he found the cache.  I logged it immediately, but he had to wait until he was home to log his.  With a QR code, he would not have been able to log his find.

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