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What is a "hint"?


Ragnemalm

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Is there anything in the rules about what a hint should be? There are some sweeping ideas here:

 

https://www.geocaching.com/blog/2013/10/tips-on-geocache-hints/

 

but these are not rules, only "tips". Still, I have been denied publising a cache since the hint was vague. But, there is another kind that are accepted: Caches where you must read the hint to find the cache! I am not talking about a cleverly hidden trad, but the code for accessing/starting a Wherigo or the actual problem for a mystery. If you don't read the hint, it is literally impossible to solve it!

 

IMHO this should be against the rules, since it is downright counter-intuitive, a clear case of reading the COs mind. Any normal person tried without the hint, since a hint is a hint! It is like placing the actual coordinates in the hint.

 

Do you find this OK? Is there anything in the rules or guidelines that oppose this kind of false hints?

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9 minutes ago, Max and 99 said:

I'm not understanding why it's a false hint.

 

Isn't it is significant difference between "suspicious pile of branches" and "enter the code 12345 to start the Wherigo"? In the first case, you can try searching without the hint. In the other case, you can't do anything without the hint! In my book, a vital instruction is not a "hint".

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10 minutes ago, Ragnemalm said:

 

Isn't it is significant difference between "suspicious pile of branches" and "enter the code 12345 to start the Wherigo"? In the first case, you can try searching without the hint. In the other case, you can't do anything without the hint! In my book, a vital instruction is not a "hint".

Ok. Thanks.

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34 minutes ago, Ragnemalm said:

Do you find this OK? Is there anything in the rules or guidelines that oppose this kind of false hints?

 

I agree 100%. Cache should be able to find with the additional hint field totally removed. I hate caches requiring to read the hint to be able to solve the puzzle.

 

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I understand why some prefer not to look at the hint. However, I don’t understand how you don’t recognize it as a legit place to hide information. You not wanting to look there isn’t the CO’s problem. Yes it’s not ”intended” for that, but neither is HTML comments.

 

I can agree that simply giving the coordinates directly in the hint would be a pretty bad puzzle once the novelty wears off.

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First, there are no rules. The one thing I've seen reviewers object to is a hint that says something to the effect of "I'm not giving you a hint", and, from what I saw, that was just friendly reviewers pointing out that leaving the hint blank was, for several reasons, a much better way of convey that information. It sounds like your experience was similar, just a reviewer commenting that your hint was too vague to be useful.

 

But when I say there are no rules, that doesn't mean your complaints are invalid. There are no rules against a poor container or inaccurate coordinates or a misleading description, they just make bad caches. In some cases, especially in a case like coordinates that don't actually point to the cache, it could make the cache so bad it deserves to be archived.

 

So, yes, it's stupid to have a hint provide required information, but it happens. When I see it, I point it out in my find or DNF log. In most cases, I don't think a CO that does that really recognizes the problem, likely because they, whether hiding or seeking, they think of the hint as nothing more than another section of the description. When I'm seeking a cache, I'm pretty much the same way, so I can understand the feeling even as I explain to them why they shouldn't think of it that way. It's both more annoying yet more forgivable in a puzzle cache. Annoying because one can reasonable expect to solve the puzzle as presented, yet forgivable because people creating puzzle caches hide information in all kinds of places. How can I complain about them hiding a critical clue in the hint when I'm not going to complain if they hide it in an HTML comment? (Ha-ha! While I was editing this, mustakorppi's post appeared with exactly the same example!)

 

So making a rule against something like this makes the reviewers' jobs harder and limits any innovation simply to block one possible way a cache can be less good than it might be. Although the trend is toward centralized quality control, I think this is still clearly an area that is better left between seekers and COs, not something GS and reviewers should dictate. A seeker that doesn't like the approach is free to complain to the CO, but they should not be able to block a seeker who would enjoy the cache from still enjoying it.

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34 minutes ago, mustakorppi said:

I understand why some prefer not to look at the hint. However, I don’t understand how you don’t recognize it as a legit place to hide information. You not wanting to look there isn’t the CO’s problem. Yes it’s not ”intended” for that, but neither is HTML comments.

 

Well, hiding the solution in a strange place is fine for a high-D mystery, but both cases of "required hint" are low D, D2 and D1.5. I must say that that adds to my feeling of a misused hint.

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2 hours ago, Ragnemalm said:

Still, I have been denied publising a cache since the hint was vague

 

I can't see this as the sole reason for denial of publication.  A hint is just something extra to help locate the cache (in most cases) so a vague hint, while not really helpful, shouldn't be grounds for not publishing the cache.  If you're purposely misleading the seeker, then perhaps I can understand it but I'm not certain that would still be grounds for such a denial.

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8 minutes ago, coachstahly said:

 

I can't see this as the sole reason for denial of publication.  A hint is just something extra to help locate the cache (in most cases) so a vague hint, while not really helpful, shouldn't be grounds for not publishing the cache.  If you're purposely misleading the seeker, then perhaps I can understand it but I'm not certain that would still be grounds for such a denial.

 

This was definitely one thing that got me going on this. If reviewers reject me for a hint not being a clear hint, why are others accepted when their hints are not hints at all? But live and let live... Let them have their fun confusing us.

Edited by Ragnemalm
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2 hours ago, Ragnemalm said:

 

But you have seen some? So this seems to be accepted by reviewers? I find that pretty odd.

 

I have seen many. One CO may put the whole puzzle description in the hint only. Some may consider it a novelty but from my view it is abuse. It is creating a situation where I am forced to read every hint only to be sure that it is not required to read at this time.

 

Edited by arisoft
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42 minutes ago, arisoft said:

 

I have seen many. One CO may put the whole puzzle description in the hint only. Some may consider it a novelty but from my view it is abuse. It is creating a situation where I am forced to read every hint only to be sure that it is not required to read at this time.

 

 

I think that's taking it to a rather unnecessary extreme, don't you think?

 

If you can't find a cache, you might check the hint.

 

If you can't solve a puzzle, you might check the hint.

 

Suggesting that because of this "abuse" you are forced to read every hint on every cache?..  LOL

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To my mind there is a fairly simple solution to this...  The CO can type whatever they want in the free text field called "hint", and the finder can type their objection to what's written in the hint field in the free text find log.  Or just not go hunting for this CO's caches.

 

Personally I find it more annoying to be searching for a cache, can't find it, so resort to the hint only to discover that the coordinates were more specific than the hint anyway, so it's a completely worthless hint... but really, all it means is that there is no hint, so find the cache or not, and move on...

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7 minutes ago, arisoft said:

 

My opinion is that it is abuse. In some definitions the hint is not accounted for the difficulty and the name is "additional hints" not "required hints".

 

 

My opinion is that you're using the hint wrong...

 

59 minutes ago, funkymunkyzone said:

If you can't find a cache, you might check the hint.

 

If you can't solve a puzzle, you might check the hint.

 

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5 minutes ago, funkymunkyzone said:

 

My opinion is that you're using the hint wrong...

 

 

 

You didn't get the big picture. I might check the additional hint as you suggested but finding the puzzle from the hint many times makes all hints meaningless. They are not additional hints any more they are just one part of the description I am supposed to read anyway before trying to solve the puzzle. You may remember the story "The Boy Who Cried Wolf" as it is happening here just now.

Edited by arisoft
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4 hours ago, Ragnemalm said:
4 hours ago, arisoft said:

I agree 100%. Cache should be able to find with the additional hint field totally removed. I hate caches requiring to read the hint to be able to solve the puzzle.

 

But you have seen some? So this seems to be accepted by reviewers? I find that pretty odd.

I have seen caches of almost any type, which would have been literally impossible to log if the hint field were removed:

- Traditional: Hint with number of lock, which must be opened to access the logbook

- Multi: Hint has the actual instructions how to proceed from stage 1 to the final

- Mystery: Hint has the actual puzzle, or the formulas to convert your solution to a coordinate

- Wherigo: Hint has the start code

And I've seen hints of this kind more or less from the beginning of my caching in 2008. So it's not a new phenomenon. As to why reviewers accept this: Why not? I don't think there is any guideline saying that the cache must in principle be solvable without ever looking at the hint.

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38 minutes ago, baer2006 said:

And I've seen hints of this kind more or less from the beginning of my caching in 2008. So it's not a new phenomenon. As to why reviewers accept this: Why not? I don't think there is any guideline saying that the cache must in principle be solvable without ever looking at the hint.

 

Yes, there is no guideline for this. So - what is the purpose of the hint field at all and why it is encrypted?

 

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2 hours ago, arisoft said:

 

You didn't get the big picture.

 

Thanks for your concern but I got the big picture just fine, nice and clear.

 

2 hours ago, arisoft said:

I might check the additional hint as you suggested but finding the puzzle from the hint many times makes all hints meaningless. They are not additional hints any more they are just one part of the description I am supposed to read anyway before trying to solve the puzzle. You may remember the story "The Boy Who Cried Wolf" as it is happening here just now.

 

Then your problem is with uncreative puzzle cache hiders.

 

Although I suspect that you are grossly exaggerating for effect.

 

Also, "The Boy Who Cried Wolf" is an entirely inappropriate analogy.  It would only be appropriate if you continued to read hints but no longer believed them.  Thanks for playing :)

 

Edited by funkymunkyzone
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I don't like hints for the fact that they put the difficulty into two levels. It may be d4 if  you don't read hint, d2 if you do.

Ideally, hints would be unnecessary and the information therein should be conveyed in cache description or attributes.

 

A lot of the hints that we see are put there after publication and are therefore result of failure in design (of the mystery or hide).

 

6 hours ago, Ragnemalm said:

 

Well, hiding the solution in a strange place is fine for a high-D mystery, but both cases of "required hint" are low D, D2 and D1.5. I must say that that adds to my feeling of a misused hint.

 

I think it's the other way around. If the coordinates are in the hint, then its low D. If they are not even there, then it's a very difficult puzzle.

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7 hours ago, Ragnemalm said:
7 hours ago, Max and 99 said:

I'm not understanding why it's a false hint.

 

Isn't it is significant difference between "suspicious pile of branches" and "enter the code 12345 to start the Wherigo"? In the first case, you can try searching without the hint. In the other case, you can't do anything without the hint! In my book, a vital instruction is not a "hint".

 

Hmm... I'm not sure I'd call required info in the hint a "false hint". When I hear the phrase "false hint", I think of hints that appear to narrow the search, but which are actually misleading. For example, "ground level" when the cache must be accessed through a hole that is 6ft/183cm high.

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8 hours ago, funkymunkyzone said:

Also, "The Boy Who Cried Wolf" is an entirely inappropriate analogy.  It would only be appropriate if you continued to read hints but no longer believed them.  Thanks for playing

 

I knew forehand that you will not see the similarity. You must try harder to understand. Parables are sometimes like puzzles and this is about D3.

 

Additional hint: gur fgbel vf nobhg ylvat naq vg jbexf obgu jnlf

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5 hours ago, arisoft said:

Why it is encrypted?

So people who don't want to read the hint can easily avoid reading it, and people who do want to read the hint can easily read it.

 

Which is pretty much what funkymunkyzone said. Why do you think it's encrypted? It seems you think it's something else.

 

Keep in mind that this is rot13. It isn't a D5 cypher, and it has been used for this purpose for decades, well before geocaching existed. That's why the geocaching.com site chose rot13 for the hints. 

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12 hours ago, papu66 said:

I don't like hints for the fact that they put the difficulty into two levels. It may be d4 if  you don't read hint, d2 if you do.

Ideally, hints would be unnecessary and the information therein should be conveyed in cache description or attributes.

 

Only if the CO chooses to make the hint more of a giveaway.  If I owned a D4 cache, you can be sure the hint would be vague enough to keep the D rating appropriate but allow the finder, if they interpret it correctly, to have a starting place on the search.  If the CO provides a spoiler hint, then you're absolutely correct.

 

Hints, by their very nature, are unnecessary.  They're there for seekers to use if they're stuck, although it's my guess that many look at them before/as they get to GZ to begin their search.  I'm not sure how one would go about placing "extra additional" information within the description because then apparently it's somewhat needed and the CO felt it was in the best interest to include it.  Attributes are additional as well, to some extent.  While COs don't need to list all the applicable attributes, if they choose to use one that's different than where it's placed as a hint and a seeker looks at the attributes and notes the "odd" one out, then that's an additional hint as well.

 

5 hours ago, arisoft said:

 

Why it is encrypted?

 

So that it's not an immediate spoiler for the seeker.  They have to actively click on it to decode the hint.  If it weren't encrypted, then it would be an immediately visible aid to finding/solving the cache. Without the encryption, it's absolutely just another part of the description but since there's something that the cacher has to actively do in order to see the hint, that makes it "additional" in the sense that it's not immediately included in the description.  It's even got a separate box for filling out when creating the cache page.   Some cachers, myself included, don't want the hint to be visible immediately upon opening the cache page and would rather search for a bit before resigning ourselves to the fact that we might need the hint to help make the find.

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21 hours ago, Ragnemalm said:

 ... Still, I have been denied publising a cache since the hint was vague.

 

Most caches I've headed to lately have no hints, so it sounds (to me) like maybe there's a bit more than you're sharing. 

You covered a few, and maybe this dyslexic old fart's missing it, but what type of cache were you denied ?  Thanks.  :) 

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8 hours ago, niraD said:
13 hours ago, arisoft said:

Why it is encrypted?

So people who don't want to read the hint can easily avoid reading it

 

Why should anyone avoid reading vital information? Are you trying to explain that there is a reason not to read it? What is this reason?

 

8 hours ago, coachstahly said:

Hints, by their very nature, are unnecessary. 

 

Although I agree with you It seems to be opposite as there are people using the hint for vital information and they have no idea about how it is intended to be used because there is no guideline.

Edited by arisoft
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9 minutes ago, arisoft said:
8 hours ago, niraD said:
14 hours ago, arisoft said:

Why it is encrypted?

So people who don't want to read the hint can easily avoid reading it

Why should anyone avoid reading vital information?

It's a hint. It shouldn't be used for vital information.

 

10 minutes ago, arisoft said:

Are you trying to explain that there is a reason not to read it? What is this reason?

Some of us prefer to search for a cache without the hint first, and then refer to the hint only if we've been unable to find the cache without it.

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For me

 

The cache should be able to be found without the hint, but it might take more time.

 

The hint should be enough to confirm with a DNF you were looking in the right place, but were unlucky or the cache is missing.

 

That to be is the difference, the hint should be enough to confirm the host location, without necessarily giving away the cache. E.g. I had a recent cache in the middle of the woods. Found likely location which had been disturbed but no cache. Pretty certain muggled but searched for another twenty minutes because the hint was vague and I didn't want to leave a msleading DNF.

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Hints, like just about everything else in this game/hobby/obsession, are very individual and subjective as to their use and helpfulness.  The word hint, by definition, is a "slight or indirect indication or suggestion", in most cases probably used to be helpful in some way to a geocacher looking for the cache.

 

We've seen no hints left, hints that tell you there's no hint (kind of pointless, IMO), one local cacher likes to give the exact location in the hint, and others get really cute and clever with the hints.  I usually like to look at the hint before starting the search, as I consider it part of the description, and I like to search fully armed with all the information I can get!  Sometimes the hint makes no sense until you actually find the cache, and that, too, seems a bit pointless to me.

 

Back to the OP, 

On 12/16/2019 at 10:20 AM, Ragnemalm said:

Still, I have been denied publising a cache since the hint was vague.

 

That is a new one on me - and I've seen some pretty vague (pointless) hints!  Is this the only reason the cache was denied publication?  That seems pretty ... harsh for denying a cache listing. 

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21 hours ago, arisoft said:

 

I knew forehand that you will not see the similarity. You must try harder to understand. Parables are sometimes like puzzles and this is about D3.

 

Additional hint: gur fgbel vf nobhg ylvat naq vg jbexf obgu jnlf

 

No, I think you really didn't understand the story of the boy who cried wolf.

 

As I said... (and I've made bold the important bit)

 

On 12/17/2019 at 2:36 PM, funkymunkyzone said:

 

It would only be appropriate if you continued to read hints but no longer believed them.

 

 

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7 hours ago, arisoft said:

Why should anyone avoid reading vital information? Are you trying to explain that there is a reason not to read it? What is this reason?

 

Because many people want to hunt for a cache without reading the hint - bearing in mind that the vast majority of hints do not contain vital information required to make the find or open the cache, or, in the case of mystery caches, solve the puzzle.

 

Almost seems like you're suggesting that hints always, and should, contain vital information.

 

It seems obvious to me that there's general agreement in this topic that the hint probably should not be used for that.  Rather there only seems to be some disagreement over whether it's a capital crime.  I think it is not, and I think we should all consider ourselves very privileged to even consider this might be a problem!

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2 hours ago, funkymunkyzone said:

Almost seems like you're suggesting that hints always, and should, contain vital information.

 

Why? @arisoft wrote an opposite opinion before, or I did not understand the meaning:

 

On 12/16/2019 at 7:58 PM, arisoft said:

Cache should be able to find with the additional hint field totally removed. I hate caches requiring to read the hint to be able to solve the puzzle.

 

I rely on hints a lot, because I am not good at searching in the field and f.ex. looking for a micro in a deep forest with jumping GPS I am completely lost without any hint. But I know that a lot of geocachers finds searching without any hint more challenging and exciting, therefore I agree that all information necessary to find a cache should be given in an unencrypted listing part and a hint, if not empty, should contain additional information only, making the find easier but not vital to it. By the way, another geocaching service where I am having fun sometimes has it explicitly written in its guidelines. On the other hand when I see a hint being far from a "helpful" meaning, I feel disappointed and even quite disgusted.

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13 hours ago, daddybeth said:

The hint should be enough to confirm with a DNF you were looking in the right place, but were unlucky or the cache is missing.

 

That to be is the difference, the hint should be enough to confirm the host location, without necessarily giving away the cache. E.g. I had a recent cache in the middle of the woods. Found likely location which had been disturbed but no cache. Pretty certain muggled but searched for another twenty minutes because the hint was vague and I didn't want to leave a msleading DNF.

 

I disagree with this, specifically as it applies to higher difficulty caches.  If it were to confirm a location, it would be easier to find and therefore more likely to be found, which leads to an easier D rating, not a harder one.  High D rated caches are expected to garner more DNFs rather than less so if the hint is too specific it will increase the find rate.  I expect any hint to be more vague and less forthcoming than an easier D rated cache.  The goal of this type of hint is to narrow the search somehow, not focus it in on a specific location.  

 

Why would you think that a DNF is misleading?  All it's telling the CO and other seekers that you didn't find the cache.  There's no such thing as a guaranteed find, nor should there be.

 

13 hours ago, arisoft said:

Why should anyone avoid reading vital information? Are you trying to explain that there is a reason not to read it? What is this reason?

 

The simple answer is that a hint shouldn't be immediately visible because not all cachers wish to see the hint before/as they begin searching.  The extra step needed (the act of clicking to see the hint) prevents this from happening.  A hint shouldn't be "vital" to finding or solving anything, other than a few limited exceptions like a particular code that helps keep a cache safer from muggles (combination to a lock or some other similar thing).  If you must read the hint then it probably should be in the description, previous exclusions noted and it's probably being used in a manner that might not be the original intent.

 

12 hours ago, CAVinoGal said:

Sometimes the hint makes no sense until you actually find the cache, and that, too, seems a bit pointless to me.

 

That just means that you didn't understand the hint, not that it might not help others who "understand" what it is implying.  There are certainly some cultural, regiona,l and generational colloquialisms that, unless you're familiar with them, won't make sense to those not affiliated with either the culture, the region or the generation.  That doesn't mean they're pointless; it just means that someone missed the point because they aren't native speakers, aren't from the region or are too young or too old to "get" it.  The same goes for vague hints.  Most of the time, when/if I find the cache that has a vague hint that I don't understand, it makes sense, which tells me that I didn't grasp it and perhaps should have because my reaction after finding it is, "Ohhhhhh.... now I get it."

 

Now, if I find the cache and the hint makes no sense, even after finding it, then that, to me, seems a bit pointless.  I usually will ask the CO what they were getting at with their hint.

 

3 hours ago, rapotek said:

On the other hand when I see a hint being far from a "helpful" meaning, I feel disappointed and even quite disgusted.

 

Disgusted is awfully strong.  By your own admission, the hint isn't vital at all so I'm not sure why you would be so fed up with a CO who might be the only one who gets the reference to a particular hint (which, I agree is pointless and disappointing).  Does the same go for you if it's a cultural, regional, or generational thing that you just didn't understand?

 

14 hours ago, arisoft said:

Although I agree with you It seems to be opposite as there are people using the hint for vital information and they have no idea about how it is intended to be used because there is no guideline.

 

I'm not saying that they're wrong to do so, specifically because there is no guideline addressing this topic, but a hint is typically designed to be a nudge in the right direction for the cacher looking at it.  For whatever reason, they've opted to put vital information within the hint rather than the location (the description) where it typically is found.  I rarely understand their reason for doing it that way but I also just shrug my shoulders and don't worry about it.

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I've seen people force no encryption on hint content.

I've seen encrypt content outside the hint.

The hint is just another free text entry field. Do with it as you please. The implication of the field is that it is an optional piece of additional information. It is not required to have some standard of content, nor disallows some standard of content (apart from being text only). That is why puzzle content may be included, or why precise instructions may be included.

 

I agree that in the spirit of the hint field, required content for accessing the log shouldn't be included in there, and information that is entirely unrelated or unhelpful should be avoided. But those are my sentiments and not rules, so I do not expect that every listing will abide by those opinions. I live with it. It doesn't give me nightmares. It adds variety and keeps me on my toes, sometimes makes me chuckle or groan in fist-shaking frustration.  That's all part of the overall fun.

IMO.

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3 minutes ago, thebruce0 said:

It adds variety and keeps me on my toes

 

The problem with this variety is that you start reading from the hint to avoid getting abused. (Wasting your time with impossible task)

I know - some players read only the hint - not the decription at all. And practically every app displays the hint without encryption.

Conclusion: Gurer vf ab uvag.

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" The problem with this variety is that you start reading from the hint to avoid getting abused. "

 

 

There's no possible way you can defend that objectively, sorry. If you feel you're somehow being abused, or wasting time... well... *shrug*.  That's why I don't place any expectations on it. I'd recommend you don't either. There is no reason to.  It's a free-entry text block, with minor implications based on its label, as I described above.

"Abuse" doesn't enter the picture objectively. And claiming someone is abusing it by doing something you simply don't like is way overreaching.

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40 minutes ago, thebruce0 said:

There's no possible way you can defend that objectively, sorry.

 

I am telling my subjective feelings about the topic. I am not trying to be objective.

 

40 minutes ago, thebruce0 said:

And claiming someone is abusing it by doing something you simply don't like is way overreaching.

 

I feel being abused in a such case - intentionally misleaded. Like putting wrong coordinates to the cache only to make it hard to find. (For them we have guideline)

Edited by arisoft
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9 minutes ago, arisoft said:

I feel being abused in a such case - intentionally misleaded. Like putting wrong coordinates to the cache only to make it hard to find. (For them we have guideline)

 

Maybe it's a language thing. There is a difference between "I feel abused when..." and "I don't like when..."  The former is an offensive claim that someone else is doing something objectively wrong that you don't like, and the latter is a personal opinion about something you simply don't like. And abuse is certainly not the case when you find a hint provided in a manner you don't like. That's why it's not a matter of "abuse".

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5 minutes ago, thebruce0 said:

Maybe it's a language thing.

 

Quote

Abuse

Everything that is contrary to good order established by usage. Departure from reasonable use; immoderate or improper use. Physical or mental maltreatment. Misuse. Deception.

 

How do you explain abuse?

Edited by arisoft
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