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Specialized Equipment Needed but provided. T rating?


VAVAPAM
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Designing a cache that will have special equipment (not an everyday TOTT) to access it provided on-site at the stages where needed.

Should that have a Terrain rating of 5 - for specialized equipment?  Or 4.5, since the equipment is there already (... and I guess it could, in theory, be done without it) ?

 

Also, [not the equipment in question above, but]:  In the Western Hemisphere, would chopsticks fall into the Specialized Equipment category or just a TOTT ?  :unsure:

Edited by VAVAPAM
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You should specify the required specialised tools. Is it ment to solve terrain issues, like a ladder, scubba gear, climbing gera, boat...... Then the added dificulty shoud go to the T-rating.

 

If the tools are needed to solve a special task on the cache, the extra dificulty should influence the D-rating. I read your question like this would be the case. When you provide the tool at the stage it´s needed, then I would say it´s easyer then when cachers must bring the tools by them self. Your dificulty rating should consider how hard it sould be for a average contender to solve the tasks. Will the most liukely need ours to solve an probaly attempt several times, then it´s D5. Is it fancy an unusual but easy done, it´s more like D2 or so.

 

Short:

Move the cacher = T- Rating

Move the Cache = D- Rating

 

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"Specialized equipment" in this case will be moving the cacher. 

The other scenario with chopsticks ... would move a verrrry tiiiiny cacher - just kidding.

 

1 hour ago, DerDiedler said:

Short:

Move the cacher = T- Rating

Move the Cache = D- Rating

 

So this is very helpful.  Thank you!

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56 minutes ago, VAVAPAM said:

"Specialized equipment" in this case will be moving the cacher. 

 

If you have a climbing gear on site then it is T4 instead of T5. If you have fishing rod on site then it is T1 instead of T5. But I can see possibility to leave both of them to T5.

 

2 hours ago, DerDiedler said:

Move the cacher = T- Rating

Move the Cache = D- Rating

 

Very nice try but in many cases you can do both. In a such case D5/T5 seems to be a little exaggerated. :)

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We've done a few caches that had equipment already there.  For example, one a ladder, another a "pole with a hook".   :)

Both of those were rated 3T, none we did were over 4 when items needed were supplied by the CO. 

"D" seemed dependent on how well they explained what you're looking for as an assist.   

 

But we do know of a "T5" , where you have to request a hazmat suit from a retired deputy to access the cache.   

Maybe the fact that you have to find him first" is the D5...

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36 minutes ago, cerberus1 said:

We've done a few caches that had equipment already there.  For example, one a ladder, another a "pole with a hook".   :)

Both of those were rated 3T, none we did were over 4 when items needed were supplied by the CO. 

 

Yeah, there are two parts to the specialized tools/equipment for a 5-star rating (either difficulty or terrain). One part is obtaining whatever it is. The other is knowing how to use it.

 

Some things require significant skill to use safely, like scuba gear or technical climbing gear. Even if these things are provided (and presumably, proper training would be provided too), I think it would still be appropriate to keep the 5-star rating.

 

Some things are pretty simple to use once you have obtained them, like a 20-foot pole or a magnet on the end of some fishing line. In that case, I don't think it's appropriate to keep the 5-star rating when these things are provided by the CO.

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6 hours ago, DerDiedler said:

Move the cacher = T- Rating

Move the Cache = D- Rating


I have a cache where you need to climb part way up a fence and hang there while operating a pole to dislodge the cache.

 

The climbing isn’t dangerous (only need a yard or so of elevation). Suitable poles are currently easily procured from the area but that’s not something I specifically provide for the cache. The hiding spot is obvious when you get to the area (though you can’t actually see the cache before climbing).

 

I have it as D1.5/T3.5 with the special tool attribute.  Even though you are using the tool to move the cache, the challenge comes from supporting your body while you do that. If you brought your own equipment to move the cacher (ladder) to move the cacher, then using another tool (the pole) to move the cache would be trivial.

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Thank you for all the input; it's very helpful to see how the ratings have been interpreted by various COs and finders.

 

On 11/28/2019 at 10:35 AM, arisoft said:

If you have a climbing gear on site then it is T4 instead of T5. If you have fishing rod on site then it is T1 instead of T5. But I can see possibility to leave both of them to T5.

 

Yes, one stage will have something like climbing gear already placed; one stage will have watercraft on-site, but not in place (hidden but ready to be used).  "Boat" is specifically stated in the T5 category, perhaps I will go with that, although, to me, just because a boat is needed doesn't necessarily mean it's all that difficult ... once you have the boat.  (But I grew up around water and boats.)

 

Having observed folks in this small town, use of chopsticks could safely be rated T5.  :D  However, I've also observed our urbane grandson easily operating them at age 5.  Perhaps I'll average that to a D2.5 or D3.

 

ETA:  I'm thinking that the combination of stages' ratings might could have a "cumulative effect".  If it were ONLY climbing gear in place it might have a different rating than climbing gear plus watercraft plus [other stuff] ... it might have a different rating for the whole activity.

Edited by VAVAPAM
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7 hours ago, bflentje said:

Why do we all feel a need to invent more things that serve no useful purpose?

Oh, like geocaches?  Silly, useless things can still be fun ... for some more than others, I guess.

 

7 hours ago, bflentje said:

rate the difficulty and terrain appropriately and move on.

Thank you for the suggestion; however, that is exactly what I'm attempting to do  - with a rating that seems "appropriate" to a sampling of cachers more experienced than I (i.e., the Forums).

 

 

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If the equipment is provided, it doesn't count to T. It is not a T5. If you go by a boat that regularly visits an island, it is not a T5, but if you must bring your own, it is.

 

Then, using the equipment may drive up the T, but not to 5.

 

The issue of D or T is subject for much discussion. Is it T3/T4 or D3/D4 to pick down a cache hanging high using a rod? It can be physically demanding, and may require you to bring equipment, but your feet don't move much when handling it. Spotting it is often easy. In my area, it raises the T, but I don't claim that that is necessarily correct.

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On 11/28/2019 at 7:19 AM, VAVAPAM said:

Also, [not the equipment in question above, but]:  In the Western Hemisphere, would chopsticks fall into the Specialized Equipment category or just a TOTT ?  :unsure:

 

I always have chopsticks in my geocaching bag.  I have found that particularly for micros I can use them to get the log out without damaging it better than I can with tweezers.  They are also useful for getting the log rolled back up tightly enough to fit into the containers.  I regularly use them for poking around into small spaces that I'm not  sure are safe for my fingers and for clearing spider webs.

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1 hour ago, RobinsonClan56 said:

 

I always have chopsticks in my geocaching bag.  I have found that particularly for micros I can use them to get the log out without damaging it better than I can with tweezers.  They are also useful for getting the log rolled back up tightly enough to fit into the containers.  I regularly use them for poking around into small spaces that I'm not  sure are safe for my fingers and for clearing spider webs.

 

Gotta love a good multi-tool!  :D   Looks like your dexterity with the chopsticks would render that a T1 for you!  Thanks for that feedback.

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1 hour ago, RobinsonClan56 said:

I always have chopsticks in my geocaching bag.  I have found that particularly for micros I can use them to get the log out without damaging it better than I can with tweezers.

 

Must not have found many nanos then ;) bisons I could see. But nanos are rolled right to the center and squeezed into the holes. Ain't no way a chopstick is getting that.

I have external pockets on my heavier jackets (for winter) and tend to keep fine tweezers there for easy and quick access if needed. Simple fix.

And btw, needing tweezers should not adjust the D or T in any way :laughing:

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21 minutes ago, thebruce0 said:

I have external pockets on my heavier jackets (for winter) and tend to keep fine tweezers there for easy and quick access if needed.

 

You're going to need a  big pocket.  :D

 

12"; bolted down; nano at the bottom with next stage clue:

woodvase.png.8b60f84b797fe738f6ba445d1956db52.png

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22 hours ago, VAVAPAM said:

 

Gotta love a good multi-tool!  :D   Looks like your dexterity with the chopsticks would render that a T1 for you!  Thanks for that feedback.

 

Now I want to create a cache that somehow requires users to use chopsticks to retrieve the log. 

 

The last time I was in Chin  I got a compliment from a local on my proficiency with chopsticks.  Preen.

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If the CO leaves the necessary specialized tools near GZ the geocacher still has to know how use them correctly to acquire the cache (as mentioned by niraD.) The fact the tools are there doesn't change the T rating in my estimation.

 

I would NOT leave climbing equipment or a boat for others to use. Consider the ramifications of use by cachers inexperienced in those techniques (you have no way of vetting them) or failure of the equipment. 

 

It's one thing to leave a pole with a magnet nearby but climbing gear, boats, etc...have people bring their own.

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On 12/4/2019 at 4:56 PM, thebruce0 said:

And btw, needing tweezers should not adjust the D or T in any way :laughing:

 

I agree with you, but it does widen the question of "equipment". What is T5 equipment, and what is not?

 

It is clear that a boat or climbing gear is T5. No question about that, and the tweezers, as well as a flashlight, a piece of wire or a magnet are not insignificant "equipment". For the latter, I say that they are ordinary things that fit in your pocket. But how about a ladder, or a long rod? They are big, but rather ordinary, not "specialized equipment". Both are rated about T4 here (T3 for shorter rods and possibly for climbs when a short ladder works). This is not very obvious. Also, a long ladder (sa 10 meter or more) can be quite hard to bring and is more dangerous to use than climbing with climbing gear.

 

I am not stating right or wrong, just mentioning the gray area.


Speaking of boats, I only rate a T5 when it is too long to swim, or swimming is dangeous in other ways at the location, or the cache can't be reached without the boat. If swimming is clearly an option, it is a T4.5. That's my grading.


And then we have tree climbing. I can say a lot about that... some other time.

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3 hours ago, Ragnemalm said:

It is clear that a boat or climbing gear is T5. No question about that, and the tweezers, as well as a flashlight, a piece of wire or a magnet are not insignificant "equipment". For the latter, I say that they are ordinary things that fit in your pocket. But how about a ladder, or a long rod? They are big, but rather ordinary, not "specialized equipment".

 

I don't think the right test for "specialized equipment" is whether it will "fit in your pocket". I have TOTT that I bought specifically for geocaching that fit in my pocket. I have TOTT that I already owned for some other purpose that barely fit in my minivan.

 

On the other hand, I don't think that "bought specifically for geocaching" is the right test either. Just because I didn't have one on hand already doesn't mean that someone else wouldn't. And vice versa.

 

One test is whether the average person would have one. Not the average geocacher, or a geocacher who collects TOTT, but the average person.

 

Another test is whether the average hiker (again, not the average geocacher) would normally carry one.

 

I'm not sure there is one definitive test though.

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8 hours ago, Ragnemalm said:

 

I agree with you, but it does widen the question of "equipment". What is T5 equipment, and what is not?

 

It is clear that a boat or climbing gear is T5. No question about that, and the tweezers, as well as a flashlight, a piece of wire or a magnet are not insignificant "equipment". For the latter, I say that they are ordinary things that fit in your pocket. But how about a ladder, or a long rod? They are big, but rather ordinary, not "specialized equipment". Both are rated about T4 here (T3 for shorter rods and possibly for climbs when a short ladder works). This is not very obvious. Also, a long ladder (sa 10 meter or more) can be quite hard to bring and is more dangerous to use than climbing with climbing gear.

 

I am not stating right or wrong, just mentioning the gray area.


Speaking of boats, I only rate a T5 when it is too long to swim, or swimming is dangeous in other ways at the location, or the cache can't be reached without the boat. If swimming is clearly an option, it is a T4.5. That's my grading.


And then we have tree climbing. I can say a lot about that... some other time.

To me a boat is no more a special piece of equipment than a car or a bicycle.

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32 minutes ago, colleda said:

To me a boat is no more a special piece of equipment than a car or a bicycle.

 

Wow.  Last I remember, only one in twelve here in the US own a boat.     :)

 - Add in how many of that "1 in 12" is a geocacher...

 

Edited by cerberus1
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23 hours ago, cerberus1 said:

 

Wow.  Last I remember, only one in twelve here in the US own a boat.     :)

 - Add in how many of that "1 in 12" is a geocacher...

 

 

I didn't own a boat until I got into caching and all the water-access caches around here became too tempting, so I bought the smallest and lightest kayak I could find that I could easily get on and off the car and which would get me to them. But this location with all its waterways is probably a bit unusual and your average Joe Blow cacher wouldn't see the need if they lived in the middle of suburbia or in a town away from the coast.

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On 12/5/2019 at 11:07 AM, Michaelcycle said:

Consider the ramifications of use by cachers inexperienced in those techniques (you have no way of vetting them) or failure of the equipment. 

 

That's a good point to consider, and it prompted me to fully investigate this state's "attractive nuisance policy" further.  Although it applies to children (who are not expected to reason possible dangers - adults are), I believe that my plan to have said items away from normal traffic, hidden and LOCKED will prevent liability on that front.

I'd always planned on including the disclaimer about choosing to do caches at one's own risk.

I make "maintenance rounds" on all my caches frequently.  Certainly, the equipment would be checked for viability regularly. 

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On 12/6/2019 at 2:21 PM, colleda said:

To me a boat is no more a special piece of equipment than a car or a bicycle.

 

For a land based cache, if one doesn't have a car or bicycle, public transportation could almost always be used or one could simply walk to reach the cache.   For a cache that requires a water navigation, if one doesn't have access to a boat, and it's too far to swim, the cache is likely not possible to find.  

 

The difference is that that cache can't be found if one doesn't own, or have access to a  boat, and that makes it special equipment.  

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