[bug] Maps in China - off by 550 meters

[+bdp]

Recently (2 weeks ago) I crossed over from Hong Kong into China. We were searching for a cache using the stock standard app (Android version).

We hunted and hunted and hunted for a particular cache and my distance to cache was always 550m away - but the streets and the buildings were

correct. No luck. Waze and Google were giving the same location. I did a bit of research and

found the China apparently has it's own idea about the GPS system. Found a map at a bus stop and matched the hint on the cache to an item on the

map -- 3 or 4 blocks away. So we walked there. Now I'm getting the right distances - but my map is telling me I'm somewhere different.

All very confusing. To make this long story a bit shorted -- we finally did actually find the cache! Yay! Us.

When we got home -- I looked at the maps on the website -- the google street gives the cache in the wrong place and the open source gives it correctly.

Same in the app -- swapping between trails and the default map yields the same massive offset.

Try it with any cache -- you can see that the cache is displayed in a different location in the two mapping systems.

UGH! That was a very long day!

 

[+Max and 99]

4 minutes ago, bdp said:

Recently (2 weeks ago) I crossed over from Hong Kong into China. We were searching for a cache using the stock standard app (Android version).

We hunted and hunted and hunted for a particular cache and my distance to cache was always 550m away - but the streets and the buildings were

correct. No luck. Waze and Google were giving the same location. I did a bit of research and

found the China apparently has it's own idea about the GPS system. Found a map at a bus stop and matched the hint on the cache to an item on the

map -- 3 or 4 blocks away. So we walked there. Now I'm getting the right distances - but my map is telling me I'm somewhere different.

All very confusing. To make this long story a bit shorted -- we finally did actually find the cache! Yay! Us.

When we got home -- I looked at the maps on the website -- the google street gives the cache in the wrong place and the open source gives it correctly.

Same in the app -- swapping between trails and the default map yields the same massive offset.

Try it with any cache -- you can see that the cache is displayed in a different location in the two mapping systems.

UGH! That was a very long day!

 

I noticed this a couple of years ago when I was helping my son find a cache.  The streets were offset.

[+arisoft]

Start from here https://coord.info/GC7JGZW

 

[+bdp]

2 minutes ago, arisoft said:

Start from here https://coord.info/GC7JGZW

 

Sorry. This just isn't a useful response for anyone just popping over the border and expecting the system to work.

Open source maps get it right. Google apparently does not. The Geocaching App should either do the conversion or issue a warning that one should

switch to the open source maps.

Pointing me to a random puzzle cache is not useful when I'm standing in Shenzhen.

[+arisoft]

Just now, bdp said:

Sorry. This just isn't a useful response for anyone just popping over the border and expecting the system to work.

Open source maps get it right. Google apparently does not. The Geocaching App should either do the conversion or issue a warning that one should

switch to the open source maps.

Pointing me to a random puzzle cache is not useful when I'm standing in Shenzhen.

 

It is supposed to solve before you go to China as it helps you to find other caches too.

[+bdp]

8 minutes ago, arisoft said:

 

It is supposed to solve before you go to China as it helps you to find other caches too.

And how is one just supposed to find this random puzzle cache in China before I actually go there?  We have the technology to fix this bug without hoping that everyone that goes to China finds this one random puzzle cache to solve before they get there.

Yes, I get that it's supposed to help. But it's only useful if one tripped over the issue *before* one was actually physically standing in China proper as opposed to a few miles away in Hong Kong or Macau. Fixing the actual issue within the application and the website would be a much better solution.

[+arisoft]

10 minutes ago, bdp said:

Fixing the actual issue within the application and the website would be a much better solution.

 

In that case you didn't solve the puzzle correctly. Here is a spoiler https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Restrictions_on_geographic_data_in_China

 

[+bdp]

13 minutes ago, arisoft said:

 

In that case you didn't solve the puzzle correctly. Here is a spoiler https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Restrictions_on_geographic_data_in_China

 

In short. I don't care about your puzzle. I'm not going to solve it. There are 10's of 1000's of cachers like me that will never solve your puzzle, so please

stop talking about it. Those same 10's of 1000's of geocachers probably are also not aware of China's issue with GPS offsets.

My issue with with not being given the tools by the technology we have available in the Geocaching App. A simple pop-up in the APP telling me that I'm in China

and I should use the Open Source map would have saved us hours of agony.

So I implore you. Just please stop pointing me at the puzzle or other references.

[+31BMSG]

19 minutes ago, bdp said:

In short. I don't care about your puzzle. I'm not going to solve it. There are 10's of 1000's of cachers like me that will never solve your puzzle, so please

stop talking about it. Those same 10's of 1000's of geocachers probably are also not aware of China's issue with GPS offsets.

My issue with with not being given the tools by the technology we have available in the Geocaching App. A simple pop-up in the APP telling me that I'm in China

and I should use the Open Source map would have saved us hours of agony.

So I implore you. Just please stop pointing me at the puzzle or other references.

I take it you didn't read the link arisoft provided that explains using a coordinate system other than the one authorized by the Chinese government is illegal? If you are asking GS to provide you with a pop-up that prompts you to use an illegal map source I don't think they are about to jump right on that. Before ending up in a Chinese prison I would suggest you do a little research on the laws of the country you are visiting.

[+Goldenwattle]

Is there any problem with using a GPS in China? I don't use the phone to cache.

[+arisoft]

2 hours ago, Goldenwattle said:

Is there any problem with using a GPS in China? I don't use the phone to cache.

 

No problems at all. Guidelines states that when you hide a cache you must use GPS coordinates and when you are searching a cache you use just the same set of coordinates to locate the cache. Your GPS is as accurate as in your home country. You will have problems if you try to find a cache without using your GPS and you try to find a cache using a map. See the mystery cache above, it demonstrates what will happen.

[+Goldenwattle]

8 minutes ago, arisoft said:

 

No problems at all. Guidelines states that when you hide a cache you must use GPS coordinates and when you are searching a cache you use just the same set of coordinates to locate the cache. Your GPS is as accurate as in your home country. You will have problems if you try to find a cache without using your GPS and you try to find a cache using a map. See the mystery cache above, it demonstrates what will happen.

Sorry I wasn't clear enough. Are there any bans on using (or possessing) a GPS in China, as there is in Cuba?

[+arisoft]

1 minute ago, Goldenwattle said:

Sorry I wasn't clear enough. Are there any bans on using (or possessing) a GPS in China, as there is in Cuba?

 

You are not allowed to do any land surveys but you can have your receiver. There have been some incidents. People were fined when doing illegal map making.

 

Quote

China has in recent years placed stricter controls on data-collecting activities such as map-making across the country, with state media reports voicing fears that unauthorised maps could compromise state security.

The students, who were not named in the report, were fined a total of 20,000 yuan (US$2,940) but received no further punishment, the report said. It said authorities confiscated their equipment in October after they were found collecting data in several areas

 

 

[+Crazedllama]

10 hours ago, bdp said:

Those same 10's of 1000's of geocachers probably are also not aware of China's issue with GPS offsets.

My issue with with not being given the tools by the technology we have available in the Geocaching App. A simple pop-up in the APP telling me that I'm in China

and I should use the Open Source map would have saved us hours of agony.

Any accurate map is actually illegal in China. If you're caught using one they may confiscate it and send you to a local police station. 

Geocaching follows the law, so they only provide to you the maps that are legally used. 

[+bdp]

20 hours ago, 31BMSG said:

I take it you didn't read the link arisoft provided that explains using a coordinate system other than the one authorized by the Chinese government is illegal? If you are asking GS to provide you with a pop-up that prompts you to use an illegal map source I don't think they are about to jump right on that. Before ending up in a Chinese prison I would suggest you do a little research on the laws of the country you are visiting.

Yes, I read it. However, GS is already presenting me with maps that show 2 different locations.

[+arisoft]

1 hour ago, bdp said:

Yes, I read it. However, GS is already presenting me with maps that show 2 different locations.

 

Do you have a GPS in you device? It should point the correct bearing and distance.

[+bdp]

3 minutes ago, arisoft said:

 

Do you have a GPS in you device? It should point the correct bearing and distance.

Please reread my original posting.

[+arisoft]

1 minute ago, bdp said:

Please reread my original posting.

 

You told that "cache was always 550m away". One explanation is that your bearing was 90 degrees off. It happens sometimes with magnetic compass if it is not calibrated. The distance should decrease when you move towards the cache, but if the compass points 90 degrees off, the distance does not change at all.

 

You also found that "China apparently has it's own idea about the GPS system" which is not the explanation in your case. Your GPS is developed by United States Department of Defense and China has their own GNSS called Beidou which is not ususally used by GPS receivers yet.

[+hzoi]

On 11/12/2019 at 8:59 PM, bdp said:

Try it with any cache -- you can see that the cache is displayed in a different location in the two mapping systems.

 

I understand your frustration, but the Chinese government is to blame for this map offset, not the mapping providers, or Groundspeak, or the other geocachers who have posted to try to help you out.

 

I'd say take it up with them, but if you're posting from inside China, they likely are already aware of your complaint.