Removing Favorite Points-new game?!

[+Former Hawkeye]

Suddenly I am experiencing more than one cacher removing favorite points from my caches.  For all 5 caches-they have been archived for over a year.  Is there a new game being played--where people are switching favorite points around to help "other" hiders gain favorite points to add to their popularity.  I have not written (or texted) any of the involved parties, because I don't want to look like a sore loser.  But if there is a new "thing" I would like to know about it.

 

I understand that people could accidentally award a favorite point to a cache and want to remove it and give it to the right hide-but years after the fact?!

 

Please understand that I had a hard time figuring out "throwdowns" finds when I was just logging DNF.  I didn't realize at the time that some people were more interested in the numbers than actually finding it.

 

Any insight would be appreciated.  Thanks!

[+barefootjeff]

For those who see FPs primarily as a recommendation for other seekers, then it makes sense to remove them from archived caches since those won't show up in searches. The Help Centre says:

 

Quote

Archived caches keep their Favorite points. You can choose to remove a Favorite point from an archived geocache to award it to a new one. Visit your Favorites List to find out which of your Favorited caches are archived.

 

For me, I see them more as a record of my caching history, something to look back through occasionally to reminisce those awesome caches, so I leave them on archived caches, but it wouldn't bother me at all if people removed their FPs from my archived caches as they're now out of the game.

[+Max and 99]

45 minutes ago, Former Hawkeye said:

Suddenly I am experiencing more than one cacher removing favorite points from my caches.  For all 5 caches-they have been archived for over a year.  Is there a new game being played--where people are switching favorite points around to help "other" hiders gain favorite points to add to their popularity.  I have not written (or texted) any of the involved parties, because I don't want to look like a sore loser.  But if there is a new "thing" I would like to know about it.

 

I understand that people could accidentally award a favorite point to a cache and want to remove it and give it to the right hide-but years after the fact?!

 

Please understand that I had a hard time figuring out "throwdowns" finds when I was just logging DNF.  I didn't realize at the time that some people were more interested in the numbers than actually finding it.

 

Any insight would be appreciated.  Thanks!

Do you get a notification when a Fav Pt is removed? How did you know?

[+bruzie]

19 minutes ago, Max and 99 said:

Do you get a notification when a Fav Pt is removed? How did you know?

 

You can sign up for notifications on Project-GC (if PGC premium) to tell you when you've had favourites added or removed - I assume that includes archived caches as well.

[+The A-Team]

32 minutes ago, barefootjeff said:

For those who see FPs primarily as a recommendation for other seekers, then it makes sense to remove them from archived caches since those won't show up in searches.

 

The archived caches do, however, still show up in your Favorites list. Someone may decide that you seem to have the same interest in caches as them, so they could use your Favorites list as inspiration.

 

I've never understood the viewpoint of removing FPs from archived caches. If a cache was one of your favourites, why would this fact change when the cache gets archived? I've even gone back and added a point to archived caches. Of course, if someone gets short on FPs and wants to change which caches they're awarded to, then that's completely understandable. Removing a point simply because the cache has been archived? Nope, I don't get it.

[+arisoft]

I never keep favorites on archived caches as I feel that the cache has failed and have no reason to recommend to anyone. What purpose you see on archived favorites?

Edited October 28, 2019 by arisoft

[+arisoft]

1 minute ago, The A-Team said:

If a cache was one of your favourites, why would this fact change when the cache gets archived?

 

For me it changes because the cache is gone.

[+The A-Team]

4 minutes ago, arisoft said:

I never keep favorites on archived caches as I feel that the cache has failed and have no reason to recommend to anyone. What purpose you see on archived favorites?

 

Caches are archived for countless different reasons, many of which are not a "failure". If the cache simply runs its course and the owner properly removes it from the game, why would you consider it a failure that other cachers shouldn't view as being a good cache?

[+arisoft]

Just now, The A-Team said:

why would you consider it a failure

 

The main reason is the permanent nonexistense for any reason.

[+colleda]

 

I have a bunch of archived caches that have favourite points and I have no idea as to whether anyone has taken back their FP or not - and I don't care. It's their point to use how they see fit. Those caches are ancient history and if someone is running short of FPs to give to worthy caches then go for it.

[+lee737]

I don't withdraw FPs from active players who have responsibly archived what was a worthy cache. I do take then back if the cache has fallen into disrepair and ends up archived by a reviewer.

[+cerberus1]

2 hours ago, The A-Team said:

I've never understood the viewpoint of removing FPs from archived caches. If a cache was one of your favourites, why would this fact change when the cache gets archived? I've even gone back and added a point to archived caches. Of course, if someone gets short on FPs and wants to change which caches they're awarded to, then that's completely understandable.

Removing a point simply because the cache has been archived? Nope, I don't get it.

Yep.

Most of the caches we favorited when we received FPs - in bulk -  were already long-archived.  They were our favorites. 

So what if it was replaced with a film can eight years later, it was a favorite for us when we were there.

 - The other 2/3rds was a FTF monster, and on many we actually got to see the cache as the CO intended.  Not many have that experience.

[+msrubble]

I recently removed some favorite points because the now-archived caches were listed as Premium. I do not give Favorite points to PMO caches. Perhaps they changed to PMO after I found them.

[+BFMC]

I really don't get this. The way I see it, I 'earn' (I use that term loosely) a Favourite Point. Which I can then duly award to a cache. At which point, it's no longer my Favourite Point, it's the CO's. Even contemplating it makes me feel like an Indian Giver.

 

FP's help me look back over what should realistically be the top 10% of caches i've found (based on my experience). It's a reward for the CO, and one that counts towards badge-gen stats for those who are into that (which no doubt many CO's are). I know of quite a few CO's whose only real chance of progressing their belt levels is via FP's and the solitary point per 100 finds. As such, they are fiercely protective of the FP's they have been awarded and are usually pretty unhappy when they get taken away.

[+kunarion]

23 minutes ago, BFMC said:

I really don't get this. The way I see it, I 'earn' (I use that term loosely) a Favourite Point. Which I can then duly award to a cache. At which point, it's no longer my Favourite Point, it's the CO's. Even contemplating it makes me feel like an Indian Giver.

There are threads about why people give FPs, such as using them as a kind of counter for FTFs.  I dunno, whatever reason, beyond what you expect would be truly defined as a cool cache.  So I’d also expect they play fast and loose with the moving points around.

 

I take it pretty literally, and looking through my list of Finds, I decide which were great caches.  If I have 5 FPs, I pick the top 5.  I‘ve always used all my FPs, until recently when I’ve decided to keep an extra 1 or 2 on hand.  Cause ya never know.  

 

I don’t remove previous FPs.  It was a favorite when I found it.  But the point (someone brought up) about caches going bad over time until they’re a mess, that point is well taken.  Not sure how I’d know about most of those.  Not sure if I’d change anything.  But I’ll think it over.  
 

Edited October 29, 2019 by kunarion

[+BFMC]

1 minute ago, kunarion said:

There are threads about why people give FPs, such as using them as a kind of counter for FTFs.  I dunno, whatever reason, beyond what you expect would be truly defined as a cool cache.  So I’d also expect they play fast and loose with the moving points around.

 

 

 

Most of my FTF's get a FP for the same reason, because more often than not FTF's fall into my personal definition of a cool cache :p

[+kunarion]

4 minutes ago, BFMC said:

 

Most of my FTF's get a FP for the same reason, because more often than not FTF's fall into my personal definition of a cool cache :p

Well there ya go! 
 

Some of the reasons have been quite a bit more random than that.  If I find a spitwad of a log in a nasty old pill bottle in an unremarkable spot, I’m gonna wonder why the FP.  So mention it in your FTF.  Just sayin. 
 

Edited October 29, 2019 by kunarion

[+arisoft]

4 hours ago, BFMC said:

I really don't get this. The way I see it, I 'earn' (I use that term loosely) a Favourite Point.

 

In my point of view you earn the favorite if you keep your cache available. When you fail you lose the favorite. It is my favorite and I make these rules for you.Embarrassing isn't it?

Edited October 29, 2019 by arisoft

[+rapotek]

As a still fresh PM with a handful of spare Favorite Points still left, I did not remove any of them yet. But in another geocaching service not once I was in a situation where I wanted to give a FP and there was nothing left. Then sometimes I reviewed a list of FP I granted and removed some from caches archived long ago. Anyway a FP is called a "recommendation" there, so it is more clear to me.

 

I treat a FP not only as a "summary" of a remarkable positive experience I had with the cache but as an invitation for another geocachers to try to find it. Therefore I am more likely to remove a FP from an archived cache despite the memories it brings, because I consider well maintained caches being still in the game more worthy than the archived ones.

[+barefootjeff]

11 hours ago, arisoft said:

I never keep favorites on archived caches as I feel that the cache has failed and have no reason to recommend to anyone. What purpose you see on archived favorites?

 

There's a multi in the Blue Mountains I did in 2017 (GC72T55) which is one of my most memorable favourites. From the starting point at the car park in Wentworth Falls, it descended the waterfall to the valley floor, passing more waterfalls along the way before finally climbing out again at Empress Falls for the walk back along the ridgetop to the start, from where we drove around to another vantage point for the final. In the company of two others, it took us almost the whole day to complete, with breathtaking natural beauty around every turn. Sadly six months later a National Parks worker was killed and two others seriously injured in a rockfall and that section of the track was closed, leading to the CO disabling the cache. It was eventually archived by a reviewer for being left disabled for too long (the track still remains closed and is likely to stay that way for quite some time), but none of that takes away from my enjoyment that day or my reason for awarding an FP to it.

 

Most of the FPs I award are for the experience in getting to the point where I put my name in the log. It might start with an outstanding cache page, then perhaps a hike, kayak paddle, bike ride or a dastardly puzzle to nut out. I don't award them as recommendations to others as I doubt too many other cachers share my tastes, for me they're primarily a record of my enjoyment and an extra show of appreciation to the CO. The later archival of a cache doesn't change any of that.

[+BFMC]

1 hour ago, arisoft said:

 

In my point of view you earn the favorite if you keep your cache available. When you fail you lose the favorite. It is my favorite and I make these rules for you.Embarrassing isn't it?

 

Not sure how you think it's embarrassing, but each to their own. I give FP's for my experience finding the cache, that's where CO earns it. What happens to the cache after that is ultimately irrelevant to me given i've already found it.

Edited October 29, 2019 by BFMC

[+arisoft]

29 minutes ago, barefootjeff said:

The later archival of a cache doesn't change any of that.

 

A few weeks ago a cache from my favorite list was archived. Then a new cache appeared in the same place. I moved the favorite from the archived cache to the new cache. Neither of these caches was special by any means but the place is great. What would you do?

Edited October 29, 2019 by arisoft

[+HHL]

6 minutes ago, arisoft said:

Neither of these caches was special at any means but the place is great. What would you do?

The same.

[+barefootjeff]

3 minutes ago, arisoft said:

 

A few weeks ago a cache from my favorite list was archived. Then a new cache appeared in the same place. I moved the favorite from the archived cache to the new cache. Neither of these caches was special at any means but the place is great. What would you do?

 

If the whole experience (not just the location) was essentially the same, I'd probably leave the FP on the original archived cache. If the new version offered a new, different and FP-worthy take on the same location, I'd leave the FP on the original and favourite the new one too.

 

I haven't had that situation arise, but earlier in the year I found a multi which the CO decided was too difficult so he archived it and instead created a traditional listing, using not only the same final location but the same container and the same logbook. He invited those who'd found the multi to log finds on the traditional but I declined, since the cache I found was the multi. I refused to even visit the new traditional, thinking it wouldn't be right since I already knew exactly where and what it was, and it wasn't until it washed away in big seas and the CO replaced the container with a new one in a different spot about 100 metres away that I decided it had actually become a new cache so I went and found it. That's just me; it's how I play the game.

[+arisoft]

2 minutes ago, barefootjeff said:

I haven't had that situation arise, but earlier in the year I found a multi which the CO decided was too difficult so he archived it and instead created a traditional listing, using not only the same final location but the same container and the same logbook.

 

I have one similar case. A player found an archived cache and republished it stating that it is the same cache as before. I logged it found because all on-line logging requirements were fulfilled. I have signed the logbook and visited the coordinates.

[+DerDiedler]

For me it´s pointless to remove favorite points from archived caches. It´s like changing history. At the time I awarded the favo to a cache I did that for a reason. And that´s just part of my caching history and always will be. Even when a cache is replaced over time by a similar one, it´s not changing that the original one was a 1 out of 10 experiance.

 

By taking favos back from archived caches and award them to new cache, one would also change the worthy of his Favopoints.

Example: Given you have 1000 founds you can deploy 100 favos. 25% of all your founds have been archived over time. So you can take back 25 favos (when evenly distributed).

You then spread this 25 favos over the remaining 750 caches you have found and wich are still in game. Thereby you have decresed the worthy of your award from 1 out of 10 to 1 out of 7,5.

Not a verry important thing and out of perspective for pretty much every awarded CO. But still a fact.

Edited October 29, 2019 by DerDiedler

[+Former Hawkeye]

Thanks for the interesting remarks!  Glad there is NOT some unofficial "game" for the taking favorite points.  I am going to think that those cachers would have removed favorite points really need them to give to others based on their own personal guidelines.

 

Happy caching!

[+niraD]

4 hours ago, BFMC said:

I give FP's for my experience finding the cache, that's where CO earns it.

That may be one source of the differences.

 

I don't think the CO earns Favorite Points, any more than I think anyone earns the difficulty or terrain rating of a cache. My Favorites list is just a statement of which caches I consider my favorites. If I no longer consider a cache one of my favorites (for whatever reason), then I take back the FP. It's as simple as that.

 

It may help that when the Favorites system was first created, I went back and added FP to all the caches that I especially enjoyed. I ran out of FP about halfway through the list, so I took back all the FP and tried again. Being more stringent, I ended up with about half my FP unspent. So then I relaxed my criteria just a bit, went through the list again, and ended up with most of my FP spent, with a few FP held in reserve. Perfect!

 

The caches on my Favorites list are fluid. I can change them whenever I want. And while I don't change them often, I do change them occasionally. It's no big deal. The cache owners aren't losing something they "earned". It isn't a new side game. I just consider different caches to be my favorites now.

[+Mudfrog]

I can see taking back a favorite point if the person runs out or runs low but I don't understand why a person would take it back when a cache was archived. I give favorites to caches that I enjoyed finding,,, plain and simple. I gave the point when it was fun/challenging/memorable for me and nothing changes that fact.

 

OP,. the people removing them have their reasons but I doubt it's a side game or conspiracy of some kind! 

Edited October 29, 2019 by Mudfrog
changed wording in last sentence

[+J Grouchy]

I'm actually surprised that anyone actually tracks FPs on their caches.  Right now I couldn't tell you if one or ten were taken from any of my caches if you paid me.  Personally, I think Favorite Points are nonsense anyway.  I'll occasionally give them out, but not with any consistency and only when it occurs to me.  I never notice how many any given cache has.  When I did, I rarely ever felt the ones with higher numbers really were worth any more than any other well-done cache.  Basically, to me, tracking FPs is pretty much as silly and useless as tracking souvenirs and getting upset over either (be it the existence or absence of one) is a bit ridiculous.  But that's just me...

[+cerberus1]

Similar to J Grouchy I guess, on a CO's perspective...

Since they weren't even out until 12/10,  I'd bet many of everyone's caches before that date saw few people go back to "award" them a FP.

Most our caches are archived now (by us...), and some before that 12/10 date.   

Just looked (I don't usually...) to see our oldest and still-active cache, in a beautiful, greeting card setting only has three...

One of the nice things about our ammo can hides is I can just go back and read the wordy, happy writings, look at the drawings and doodles, and maybe salvage the pressed flowers in each log's book.  

 - That sharing means more to me than whether someone thinks my caches were "worthy enough" for a point. 

 

[+DerDiedler]

7 minutes ago, cerberus1 said:

Since they weren't even out until 12/10,  I'd bet many of everyone's caches before that date saw few people go back to "award" them a FP.

I did that.

When FP´s were implemented, I went throug all my founds and awarded the ones I liked best, spending all my Favos at once. And they still stand as my favorited caches till today.

 

Ok, I have to admit, my GC-History was only 8 month old back then. But I gladly did it

Edited October 29, 2019 by DerDiedler

[+Mudfrog]

1 hour ago, DerDiedler said:

I did that.

When FP´s were implemented, I went throug all my founds and awarded the ones I liked best, spending all my Favos at once. And they still stand as my favorited caches till today.

 

Ok, I have to admit, my GC-History was only 8 month old back then. But I gladly did it

 

We started caching in 02 and found some great caches since. Like you, I went back to the ones I enjoyed and ticked them with a favorite. Most of those caches are long gone but you'll still see my favorite point on the archived page.

[+The A-Team]

Well, I think what we've definitively determined is that there isn't a definitive definition of FPs.

 

Some people use them to track the caches they liked the best.

Some people use them to reward the CO.

Some people use them to recommend caches to others.

Some people don't use them at all.

 

In the end, we all have our own reasons for giving FPs to a cache, and we all have our own reasons for possibly taking back a FP from a cache.

[+lee737]

I think in these forums, after a page or two of banter we generally definitively determine that we can't come up with a definitive definition of anything.....

 

[+Harry Dolphin]

When favorite points came out, I reviewed my finds and assigned over a hundred favorite points.  More than half have been archived, but the were my favorites when I found them.  so, they remain.

[+colleda]

1 hour ago, The A-Team said:

Well, I think what we've definitively determined is that there isn't a definitive definition of FPs.

 

Some people use them to track the caches they liked the best.

Some people use them to reward the CO.

Some people use them to recommend caches to others.

Some people don't use them at all.

 

In the end, we all have our own reasons for giving FPs to a cache, and we all have our own reasons for possibly taking back a FP from a cache.

I'll add one to that list.

Some people use them for the feelings or emotions evoked by being brought to a certain place.

 

I recently gave a FP to a mint tin cache in a guard rail. Why?

It was a beautiful spot with magnificent views, but that wasn't the reason. It was because it was placed right above where my father-in-law worked as a coal miner on arrival in Australia, coming via Canada from Wales in 1930. Second reason was because it was in the village where my late wife grew up and from GZ I can see, in the distance, the cemetery where she now rests.

GC8DWHK

[+BFMC]

17 hours ago, kunarion said:

 If I find a spitwad of a log in a nasty old pill bottle in an unremarkable spot, I’m gonna wonder why the FP.  So mention it in your FTF.  Just sayin. 
 

 

I will always mention giving a FP in my log (well, sometimes I forget but generally speaking...). Less important now the found it email to CO tells them you dropped a fave, but force of habit. Also another reason why I wouldn't take them back.

[+The A-Team]

1 hour ago, lee737 said:

I think in these forums, after a page or two of banter we generally definitively determine that we can't come up with a definitive definition of anything.....

 

I don't agree with your definitions of "banter", "generally", or "a". Let's argue about that for 10 pages.

[+Team DEMP]

I guess some folks here that give birthday or holiday presents to friends ask for them back if their friend passes away?  

[+lee737]

29 minutes ago, Team DEMP said:

I guess some folks here that give birthday or holiday presents to friends ask for them back if their friend passes away?  

 

I see it as removing my endorsement that this is a great cache, when it ceases to live up to such endorsement....

[+Team DEMP]

4 minutes ago, lee737 said:

 

I see it as removing my endorsement that this is a great cache, when it ceases to live up to such endorsement....

 

You bought a friend you play golf with a putter as a present. He stops playing golf 5 years later. You visit him to take your putter back. 

You are mixing tenses in your reply... you gave a favorite point because it was a great cache when you found it.  What the cache is now seems irrelevant.  What if the cache owners of all archived caches went and changed them to 1/1 since they are no longer difficult or hard terrain? Sure would be hard to complete your fizzy grid. 

[+L0ne.R]

For me, FPs are foremost a community tool. FPs are a way to recommend caches to others, help them find caches they might enjoy too if they have similar caching styles to mine. 

 

In the early days of FPs I would run out (circa 2010-2012). I needed more FPs to acknowledge the efforts of current good owners and promote/recommend their caches, I felt it was more important for the community as a whole, so I'd take back from archived caches. 

 

Times have changed, I don't need to take from archive caches in order to get more FPs anymore but I occasionally go through my FPs and if the experience has changed significantly, I remove the FP. If I want to remember those caches I'll put them on a personal bookmark list, with a personal note to help me remember why I once favored the cache. 

 

Reasons I remove FPs: 

• the cache was archived by a reviewer
• the cache container changed and it's no longer a painted ammo can, now it's a dollar store container with logs complaining about a wet log; or a pill bottle (and the owner hasn't changed 'regular' size to 'micro')
• logs indicate deterioration and the cache owner shows no signs of going back since they placed it
• the container is now a throwdown and the cache owner either is happy for it, or is long gone and isn't monitoring the listing

I would no longer recommend those caches to others.

I don't want my name listed under "View Who Favorited" for a pill bottle hide that use to be something of far better quality.  

Edited October 30, 2019 by L0ne.R
Typo

[+lee737]

32 minutes ago, Team DEMP said:

 

You bought a friend you play golf with a putter as a present. He stops playing golf 5 years later. You visit him to take your putter back. 

You are mixing tenses in your reply... you gave a favorite point because it was a great cache when you found it.  What the cache is now seems irrelevant.  What if the cache owners of all archived caches went and changed them to 1/1 since they are no longer difficult or hard terrain? Sure would be hard to complete your fizzy grid. 

 

A better analogy would be that I went to the tip to collect the putter, because he left it out in the rain until it rusted half away, and a garbage man had to come and pick it up for him, and take it to the tip because he couldn't be bothered to do it himself.

[+Team DEMP]

Not sure what a tip is - maybe dump? Caches get archived for many reasons where the cache is still there and "run its course" or was muggle. Taking an action based on what the cache was AFTER you awarded a favorite seems inaccurate. Changing D/T after it is archived seems inaccurate. Or since it might have been a cache that required tree climbing, that attribute should be removed because it's no longer in a tree. 

[+lee737]

10 minutes ago, Team DEMP said:

Not sure what a tip is - maybe dump? Caches get archived for many reasons where the cache is still there and "run its course" or was muggle. 

 

Correct - dump will work too.

I've said before that I'll remove an FP if the cache has been archived by a reviewer, that to me is a clear indication that CO no longer cares about that cache, and commonly, caching in general.

[+barefootjeff]

28 minutes ago, lee737 said:

I've said before that I'll remove an FP if the cache has been archived by a reviewer, that to me is a clear indication that CO no longer cares about that cache, and commonly, caching in general.

 

Three of my favourites have been archived by a reviewer. For two of those (one of them the Blue Mountains multi I mentioned earlier), the CO had disabled the cache because of what he hoped would be a temporary impediment to finding it, but the impediments dragged on and, with those, you only get one warning to provide monthy update notes and if you miss one, game over and no further correspondence will be entered into. So yes, I have some sympathy with those and I still think they were favourite-worthy caches. The third one was another multi in a beautiful spot which I really enjoyed at the time, but the CO was long gone, the cache went missing and eventually it went via the NM - NA - Archival route. I'd still like to remember it as one of my early favourites.

[+lee737]

The reviewers around here are like fast bowlers, take your eye off the ball and you'll cop it in the box (it's a cricket term, nothing profane).

[+niraD]

5 hours ago, Team DEMP said:

I guess some folks here that give birthday or holiday presents to friends ask for them back if their friend passes away?  

I think a better analogy is something like this:

 

Last year, a friend asked me to recommend a restaurant. I suggested a new pizza place.

 

This year, another friend asked me to recommend a restaurant. I suggested a new gyros place.

 

I didn't "ask for anything back". I didn't give the owner of the pizza place a present in the first place. I just have a different favorite restaurant now than I did a year ago. People sometimes change their minds. Get over it.

Edited October 30, 2019 by niraD

[+Team DEMP]

3 hours ago, niraD said:

People sometimes change their minds. Get over it.

 

Get over it? Haha. 

 

Your recommendation analogy isn't well suited to what is being discussed. Your analogy more accurately represents NOT taking away a favorite point from your previously recommended/favorite pizza place (or cache) and giving a new recommendation/favorite point to the gyro place (or new cache). 

 

Your recommendation analogy that matches some of the flow here would me more along the lines of going back into Yelp or similar review website and removing your old good rating for a restaurant after it closed.