Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 2
IsabellaMolly

Copy paste of another cacher's answers

Recommended Posts

I just received answers on one of my earth caches and I immediately got suspicious as the person who mailed them to me is a very poor speller (dyslectic) and the answer did not have a single error in it.

 

I searched the first strong of the answer and found another mail from another local geocacher (and HQ voulenteer) which sent me the exact same mail 4.5 months ago.

 

What would you do in this case? I mostly tend to not accept the answer from the latter person as I know they haven't been there together due to logs on my physical caches in the same area - even one within the 161-meter-circle. The latter person would not go there and just find this one cache and leave the rest behind. 

Share this post


Link to post

Tricky... I personally would probably not do much, as you would be unlikely to be able to *prove* they weren't there - they may have visited with the other cacher who sent you the email.

Maybe message them with your email suspicions, ask when they visited.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post

The first one visited June 8 and the other one October 7 - I can see that from their logs - I have multiple caches in that area and can just search their logs on the nearby traditionals. The person who sent me the answers just now logged a ton of caches 130+ km away from the ec on June 8 and other caches in that same area both the day before and after - and I know he was together with some other cachers there and had a sleep over. I believe that is proof enough that they weren't together?

Share this post


Link to post
1 hour ago, IsabellaMolly said:

The latter person would not go there and just find this one cache and leave the rest behind.

 

I would urge caution in making this assumption, as I've sometimes gone a long way from home just to do one cache and have ignored others nearby. I did that just recently with lee737's new virtual, a 200km drive from home, although the "nearby" other caches were 10km away from it and didn't really interest me enough to break my journey. If I'm focussed on just one cache, I often won't even bother checking to see if there's anything else nearby, so it's the only one loaded onto my GPSr for that trip. I'm not a numbers cacher.

 

At the end of the day, you're a cache owner, not an examiner, and as long as the person has sent you answers which are otherwise acceptable, I don't think copying them from someone else would really be grounds for deleting the log. A bit like someone finding a puzzle cache after getting the answers from a friend who solved it.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post

I know this guy very well - he "vacuums" every cache he goes by. He was on a trip with other people far away from home on a small island the day the first guy was at my cache. He does not own a car nor a license. It is a 5.5 hour trip one way by public transportation not including the ferry from the Island. So he had no way he could have made the trip and found the other caches with the other people as well. Only caches he would pass by are caches where you need climbing gear or a long fishing pole as he doesn't own either. 

Share this post


Link to post

If he sent the answers, even if they were copied from another, you don't have a defensible position to delete his log.

Your suspicion about his not visiting on that date may be correct, but not really provable.

You have told everyone here your thoughts of his caching character and more. Maybe it would be best to just let it go.

  • Upvote 3

Share this post


Link to post

I'd point out the issues you've mentioned here and ask him sweetly whether he hasn't made a mistake. Then I'd forget about it. I'd just want him to know I caught him. I wouldn't particularly care about the find itself.

  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post

I think that I'd probably just let it be, if I had a suspicion like that on one of my Earthcaches. Geocachers helping each other out with answers to mystery caches and Earthcaches is probably fairly common. 

A suggestion if you really care about maintaining the log. I would require that a photograph be taken somewhere near the Earthcache. It's difficult to prove that someone plagiarized answers, but its much easier to prove photographic evidence.  

Share this post


Link to post
7 hours ago, barefootjeff said:

At the end of the day, you're a cache owner, not an examiner, and as long as the person has sent you answers which are otherwise acceptable, I don't think copying them from someone else would really be grounds for deleting the log. A bit like someone finding a puzzle cache after getting the answers from a friend who solved it.

 

The idea of requesting answers has two reasons. 1) Verifying that the player visited the site 2) Verifying that the player attended the lesson.

 

100% copy from another player do not verify either of these. This it very tricky situation. At least you know that the person who is answering is not the person who is claiming the find.

 

I would ask advice from the reviewer and also ask additional proof (more detailed answer) from the player.

Edited by arisoft

Share this post


Link to post

I have asked the person he copied off from and he told me that yes, he did provide the answers to the other guy as he was asked for help. He never realized that I would just get an exact copy (we changed to I through out the mail though) and sounded a bit shaken. 

 

I told the copy-paster to provide his own answers and he gave me an obnoxious answer back: (Google translated into English)

 

"Dear CO.  I can understand on your message that you are not satisfied with my answer ... but since it is only in task 1 that it says Describe in your own words then it must be there that my mistake lies.

 you want me to describe in my own words the visible foliation as well as what color and pattern it has ... besides if there are different places on the stone ...

 IN MY WORDS:
 the large visible foliation is seen as there are a lot of parallel patterns on the stone ... these have probably arisen because of all the different birds that have used the stone as a runway for millennia.  enabling them to protect their feet from the cold, damp soil surrounding the stone.
 the gray, brown, black and reddish colors of the stone come from
 the local gray gulls
 brown cages
 sunsets as well as red chalks that have been inhabiting the stone in each of their territories for many hundreds of thousands of years and therefore their feathers have become contaminated on the stone over time so that today it appears to have several different colors.

 If this is not enough answer then you as CO need to help me find the right answers as I have tried to the best of my ability.

 Have a good day"

 

I have contacted HQ about the matter and will also contact the local reviewers later today as well. 

Share this post


Link to post
8 hours ago, IsabellaMolly said:

I know this guy very well - he "vacuums" every cache he goes by. He was on a trip with other people far away from home on a small island the day the first guy was at my cache. He does not own a car nor a license. It is a 5.5 hour trip one way by public transportation not including the ferry from the Island. So he had no way he could have made the trip and found the other caches with the other people as well. Only caches he would pass by are caches where you need climbing gear or a long fishing pole as he doesn't own either. 


Do you doubt that he visited the location at all (i.e. on the day he logged the find)?  If so, I guess that’s a reasonable case for deleting his log.  If it’s likely he visited but then cribbed his answers then I’d let it go.

 

As others have said, adding a photo requirement might make it easier to catch out armchair loggers going forward.

Share this post


Link to post

He was there on the date of his logs as he logged my other caches on the same day as the EC. But didn't do the research - just got the answers from the other guy and sent me the exact same answers as I received 4.5 months ago from the other guy. 

Share this post


Link to post

My tendency is not to dwell too much on a single User, but to evaluate the bigger picture going on with my Listings, if I suspect one or more bogus logs.  My approach would be to update and strengthen the Logging Requirements, and perhaps add a photo requirement (selfie or personal item per guidance).

 

I wouldn't get too hung up on one User or their snarky replies to me, as that has a tendency to devolve into a TOU violation, which normally doesn't end well for either party.  Life is too short to stress over it.

  • Upvote 1
  • Helpful 1

Share this post


Link to post
59 minutes ago, IsabellaMolly said:

He was there on the date of his logs as he logged my other caches on the same day as the EC. But didn't do the research - just got the answers from the other guy and sent me the exact same answers as I received 4.5 months ago from the other guy. 


In fairness, he did some research, just not the research you wanted!

 

It’s a bit like a tough tree climb.  You can ask that only those that made the climb log the find, but in practice it’s impossible to enforce.  I’m not sure who HQ would side with if you deleted the log and the cacher went to appeal.  I’d say it’s not worth the hassle: they visited the location and met the logging requirements.

  • Upvote 1
  • Funny 1

Share this post


Link to post
4 hours ago, arisoft said:

I would ask advice from the reviewer

 

Reviewers are not in the business of ruling on logs.  We can, and often do, give advice on how to handle situations, but if you're in search of a ruling, it should come from Groundspeak appeals via the Help Center, not from a reviewer.

 

2 hours ago, IsabellaMolly said:

I told the copy-paster to provide his own answers and he gave me an obnoxious answer back:

 

I will give two pieces of advice.  First, you should probably remove the bit below this in your post, as you have now published at least part of the answers to your earthcache questions to the geocaching forums, and potentially multiplied your potential audience of cachers who want to skip the logging questions.

 

Second, as has been pointed out, an earthcache CO may now require logging photos.  You can't make it retroactive, so it won't help with this particular cacher, but if you feel it would help avoid this situation in the future, it's your option.

  • Upvote 1
  • Surprised 1
  • Helpful 1

Share this post


Link to post
2 hours ago, IceColdUK said:

 I’m not sure who HQ would side with if you deleted the log and the cacher went to appeal.  I’d say it’s not worth the hassle: they visited the location and met the logging requirements.

 

One reason for the logging requirements is to verify that user visited the site. In this case it didn't happen because the answer is bogus. Similar situation if two players post the same photo for a virtual cache but a different date. The second is 100% fake log ... isn't it?

Share this post


Link to post

Another dyslexic cacher here...

You said another told you during your "investigation" that they gave the other cacher answers.  

 - They are the correct answers for the cache, right ?

What's the problem ?    Answers were provided, and you even say the cacher was there. 

The fact that it was almost exact ("we changed to I...") doesn't matter.

Change one of your requirements to a photo for future finders if it bugs you this much,  and forgetabout this one... 

 

 

Edited by cerberus1
had to correct all the errors us dyslexics are known to make...
  • Upvote 3

Share this post


Link to post
4 hours ago, IsabellaMolly said:

I told the copy-paster to provide his own answers and he gave me an obnoxious answer back: (Google translated into English)

That answer doesn't strike me as obnoxious. I admit he's trying to make you feel bad, but, of course, there's no reason for you to pay any attention to that since you had valid concerns. The bottom line is that he complied with your request and provided his own answers. Forget the rest of it and evaluate his new answers as you would any others. It no longer matters why he originally tried to take that short cut.

 

If you wanted to, you could discuss it with him. He may have sincerely thought his answers wouldn't be good enough for you, so it might help to assure him that ECOs prefer people giving their own answers, however flawed, over getting precanned answers written by someone else.

  • Upvote 1
  • Helpful 1

Share this post


Link to post
15 hours ago, IsabellaMolly said:

The latter person would not go there and just find this one cache and leave the rest behind. 

 

I've cached that way for years.  I'll skip right by other hides for the one I'm after. 

Share this post


Link to post
15 hours ago, IsabellaMolly said:

as the person who mailed them to me is a very poor speller (dyslectic)

 

Maybe he was there but was afraid being marked as dyslectic, so he was using words and phrases he was sure are correct spelled.

I think you are overreact on a small issue, just let it go and relax.

 

  • Upvote 3
  • Helpful 1

Share this post


Link to post
9 hours ago, IceColdUK said:
10 hours ago, IsabellaMolly said:

He was there on the date of his logs as he logged my other caches on the same day as the EC.


In fairness, he did some research, just not the research you wanted!

 

...  I’d say it’s not worth the hassle: they visited the location and met the logging requirements.

I tend to agree with this thinking.  

 

Often, I cache with my husband, or a group of friends, and one of us (usually me!) submits answers for Earthcaches or VIrtuals for the whole group, and each one logs the find, referencing my answers (Answers submitted by CAVinoGal), and in my log I'll name each cacher that was there.  Generally we'll discuss the  lesson and come up with a consensus for the answers.  I've not heard of any deleted finds due to this practice.

 

Only once has an Earthcache CO specifically requested that everyone who is claiming a find must submit answers individually.  In that case I believe hubby just copied mine and tweaked it a bit (equivalent of changing "we" to "I", basically).  The requirement is to visit the site, make observations, and submit answers.  It seems obvious to me that the finder visited the site, tried to come up with answers and was struggling, reached out to a previous finder and asked for help, and THAT cacher simply sent a copy paste of his answers, that is likely where your problem lies, not with cacher who did the same thing in turn for his email to you.

 

Let it go - it's not worth the anxiety for you or the finder.  I probably would not have said anything, if I 'd even noticed the similarity in the logs. 

  • Helpful 2

Share this post


Link to post

I've abandoned ECs when I've found myself standing at GZ, GPSr in one hand and a printout of the cache page in the other (and usually with a gale-force wind trying to blow it away), staring alternately at the rocks and the page, trying to figure out what in blue blazes the CO is actually asking. The only geology I've studied was in high school back in the late 1960s, before they invented all these new-fangled modern rocks it seems, and in the end I just walk away, shaking my head and muttering never to attempt another EarthCache.

 

Perhaps you should look at it another way - instead of doing what I do, he'd at least made the effort to ask a friend who'd previously done the EC for some help, and when that help arrived in the form of his mate's answers, is it really all that terrible that he just used them as given rather than paraphrasing them? Would he have understood the geology any better had he done the latter? If it had been my EC, I'd have just been happy someone went to the trouble of visiting the site and sending me answers, any answers. As long as it's not an obvious armchair log, I'm a very forgiving examiner EC owner, knowing how much trouble I have with other people's ECs.

 

5 hours ago, CAVinoGal said:

Only once has an Earthcache CO specifically requested that everyone who is claiming a find must submit answers individually.  In that case I believe hubby just copied mine and tweaked it a bit (equivalent of changing "we" to "I", basically).  The requirement is to visit the site, make observations, and submit answers.  It seems obvious to me that the finder visited the site, tried to come up with answers and was struggling, reached out to a previous finder and asked for help, and THAT cacher simply sent a copy paste of his answers, that is likely where your problem lies, not with cacher who did the same thing in turn for his email to you.

 

Yes, I've had a similar situation on my EC. Two mates visited GZ, had a lot of fun while there and actually jumping in the potholes to examine the geology close-up. Both posted nice find logs but I only got answers from one of them with no indication they were meant to cover both, so after a couple of weeks I asked the other if he'd sent anything or whether his mate's answers were for both, and he replied saying it was the latter. That's all I needed to know and I was happy with that. Cachers collaborate; it's one of the enjoyable aspects of the game. No-one's life or hard-earned savings is going to be put at risk because someone cribbed the answers to my EC.

Edited by barefootjeff
  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post

Apart from visiting the cache, part of doing  Earth Caches is to learn something about the geology of the place. Having to supply two sets of answers, one of which was done by some one else, one would hope he learned something (about geology) from resubmitting it in his own words. Mission complete.

Having been called out in this situation one would hope he may, in future, think twice about what he logs knowing there are COs who do check.

Share this post


Link to post
19 hours ago, CAVinoGal said:

Only once has an Earthcache CO specifically requested that everyone who is claiming a find must submit answers individually.  In that case I believe hubby just copied mine and tweaked it a bit (equivalent of changing "we" to "I", basically).

 

This is what geowareUSA1 posted on September21, 2018:

The CO is not allowed to require separate emails from  individuals of a group caching together, if they prefer sending their answers to the CO under one User Account for the entire group.  The CO is allowed to ask for the email to include the Usernames of everyone in the group, in order to cross reference them to the online Log Entries.

I think, many owners do not know about current procedures and just come up with something they feel "it should be" there way.

  • Helpful 1

Share this post


Link to post
2 hours ago, Mausebiber said:

This is what geowareUSA1 posted on September21, 2018:

The CO is not allowed to require separate emails from  individuals of a group caching together, if they prefer sending their answers to the CO under one User Account for the entire group.  The CO is allowed to ask for the email to include the Usernames of everyone in the group, in order to cross reference them to the online Log Entries.

I think, many owners do not know about current procedures and just come up with something they feel "it should be" there way.

And this is what is on the cache page for the EC - (GC1DBA2 - Red "Rocks")

5. Group emails are not acceptable, each person logging this cache must submit their own unique photo and submit their own unique email.

 As I looked back over this EC, hubby and I actually did disagree on one of the questions, so we both submitted our own answer for that particular question.  The cache was published  in June of 2008.  It's the only EC I've seen with a requirement that each logger submit a separate email.  Most ask for the names of everyone in the group - and one email is sufficient for the group.

 Of course, this is off topic from the OP's question - though I think that's been answered already.

Share this post


Link to post

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 2

×
×
  • Create New...