Waning interest in puzzles

[+dprovan]

5 hours ago, fizzymagic said:

And my original point was not an analogy. When I place a geocache, it is quite literally a gift to the community.

I'm not sure why the analogies aren't working for you, but the important point is that "to the community". arisoft's analogy doesn't make a good argument because it was critically different: he was talking about something done for a single individual. Whether your gift is a puzzle or a cache or a party is immaterial to his point.

 

56 minutes ago, thebruce0 said:

Or to extend farther, everyone but 2 people come to the party you spend weeks planning and decorating, then look around, and leave.

I have to admit, this might be a part that I (and fizzymagic) might not be able to grasp. In our area, so many people enjoy a good puzzle that the people that don't aren't a big factor. If a CO's caches aren't appreciated in general, I can see why they'd be discouraged. But that's entirely different than some cachers not solving the puzzles while just as many do solve the puzzle.

 

1 hour ago, thebruce0 said:

Some people might be able to focus on just those 2 people. But there's no arguing that the fact that most of those people are lying to you is a great discouragement - and at that point it's not about the technicalities of the party or the gift - it's the fact that you feel they believe you're worth lying to. That's the discouragement.

I don't like when people lie, but the solution to that isn't to complain about people not solving the puzzle but finding the cache. Knowing a CO doesn't like that is why people lie about it. If you don't want them to lie, make sure it's obvious that you enjoy and accept all finds and celebrate the puzzle solvers as a bonus.

[+thebruce0]

8 minutes ago, dprovan said:

1 hour ago, thebruce0 said:

Or to extend farther, everyone but 2 people come to the party you spend weeks planning and decorating, then look around, and leave.

I have to admit, this might be a part that I (and fizzymagic) might not be able to grasp. In our area, so many people enjoy a good puzzle that the people that don't aren't a big factor. If a CO's caches aren't appreciated in general, I can see why they'd be discouraged. But that's entirely different than some cachers not solving the puzzles while just as many do solve the puzzle.

That analogy wasn't about a specific region, it was just demonstrating the point, the feeling. And yes, again, it's not about the technicality of people just finding the cache without solving the puzzle (thus the 2nd extended analogy).

 

9 minutes ago, dprovan said:

I don't like when people lie, but the solution to that isn't to complain about people not solving the puzzle but finding the cache. Knowing a CO doesn't like that is why people lie about it. If you don't want them to lie, make sure it's obvious that you enjoy and accept all finds and celebrate the puzzle solvers as a bonus.

I agree. Which is what I said. It's not about merely people finding a cache without solving the puzzle. And to quote myself: "I want people to find my caches; I'm open to talking, working through, giving tips, even going with. I like to be someone open and friendly and willing to help."  And when people feel that is a person worth lying to, it can be discouraging to the point of just giving up on it entirely. And that's what can happen with many puzzle/multi creators. And it can ruin friendships.

[+niraD]

I am reminded of a conversation I had with several artists about the experience of creating public art. It turns out that creating a mural, sculpture, or other work of art that will be displayed in a public space is VERY different from creating art that will be displayed privately.

 

Of course, creating public art involves working with government organizations or similar entities. But creating public art also means accepting (perhaps even embracing) the fact that one's creation will not be treated like a piece displayed in a private gallery. Kids may climb on it. Critters may crawl over it or perch on it or worse. All kinds of people will view it and pass judgement on it, no matter how uninformed about art they are. And it will be subject to the forces of nature, to the abuse of vandals, and to the general neglect of people who don't care. And years later, someone may take offense and try to get your piece removed.

 

Creating public art isn't for everyone. Some of the artists I spoke with said that it was an interesting experience, but they would never do it again. Others enjoyed the challenge, and looked forward to the next opportunity to create public art.

[+thebruce0]

5 minutes ago, niraD said:

I am reminded of a conversation I had with several artists about the experience of creating public art. It turns out that creating a mural, sculpture, or other work of art that will be displayed in a public space is VERY different from creating art that will be displayed privately

Absolutely. A geocache isn't a personal gift, it is essentially "public art". And that's why if you want to enjoy creating and publishing geocaches, you do in a sense have to grow a thick skin, when it comes to people doing it the way you intend.  I love finding alternate ways to solve puzzles too. And I love when other people find alternate ways to solve mine (in fact I often build in hidden easter eggs for people who do, if I can).

 

But it's hard to come up with an analogy relating being lied to about your geocaches with private and public art

 

I do try to encourage people to remember that the only "rule" is to sign the log book in order to log online - it's not "cheating" if they do. That means that getting upset about people skipping to that part of geocache finding is a personal threshold you can choose to set. And it's much nicer not to get infuriated so often when people do that. It's a happier life =P

 

...but being lied to.  That's not an issue with the cache owner, that's an issue with the cache finder and community perception of geocache finding. That's a value shift on to the smiley and away from respecting people and owners.

[+L0ne.R]

52 minutes ago, thebruce0 said:

Or better yet, you create a surprise celebration for your friends for whatever reason, and you watch from afar for the candid camera experience, hoping to see everyone enjoy the surprise. 2 people show up. They enjoy it, even though there were a couple of technical glitches in the setup. Then all your other friends tell you "Yeah, it was a blast, we had lots of fun, great food, good music, we sure were surprised."  (now imagine if there was public reputation for having attended - and they start telling people they attended so they can claim that reputation)

 

 

This. ^

 

It's happened to my caches several times, especially when groups visit. If I hide a cache it's guaranteed to happen again, especially if that cache is a non-trad. 

 

It's mostly groups that cache in my area these days. They range from 10 to 75 people. The groups get bigger and bigger over the years, especially groups who cache regulary. I think because this area was part of the experiment that allowed group caching to be an event. So groups get the extra bonus of an event icon, and we get event-size groups.  Events have always been popular here. (Is event group caching still in the experimental stage?)

 

Generally, everyone claims a find but only one or two people lay hands on the cache. Maybe a handful actually lay eyes on it. Everyone else claims they visited the cache too. 

 

 

 

 

 

[+thebruce0]

I gave up caring about group caching. I might tag along a bit for some on a list, but only log the ones I visit, and the group can get so big and messy it's just confusion anyway. It's not fun. And it's very mob-like.  But as a cache owner, if a group passes through, I just shrug it now, generally. Or if I'm looking at logs and I see a group cacher's log, I skim until a different day (usually many pages of uninformative group-caching logs). That, to me, is not worth stressing over any more.

 

I've taken up the challenge of creating puzzles that are either not worth the effort to skip, or are more fun not to skip, or I can make legitimate changes when I feel it necessary to help thwart coordinate sharing (that's usually demonstrated after there are some DNFs right after the move).  But if a name (or group caching name) is in the logbook, whatev.

Edited November 27, 2019 by thebruce0

[+dprovan]

10 minutes ago, BendSinister said:

Basically the CO should be allowed some self-defined minimum level of amusement in return for their ongoing maintenance efforts without accusations of personality flaws!

I agree that it's reasonable for a CO to decide a cache of any type has run its course. I thought we were talking about people that got so incensed that archived all their caches and gave up.

[+mandevil]

This is interesting thread. I only started caching in 2018 and while less than 20% of my finds are mystery caches, I can say that the more difficult mysteries are invariably the most rewarding ones. There's nothing like finally seeing the bits of a solution to fall into place. So I definitely seek and will continue to seek mystery caches. I am not that good at solving them, so there's ton I just can't get handle on, but that's natural. Maybe one day I'll get more experienced and will solve them.

 

As for hiding mysteries: I have hidden two (D4 and D5) and they have found their audience and were well received. I am entirely content with them having few finds after all the local guys capable of solving them have found them. If they rise to the top of the list of long unfound caches, that's even better ;-) After all, caches that are rarely found need very little attention from me as CO. I am also planning more mysteries in the same vein: Distant location, hard puzzle, few finds.