Preform tubes where to buy

[+Barnzy12]

Looking to buy bulk preform tubes, does anyone have a link to ones they’ve used and are happy with?

 

seen a few on eBay but they’re over $1each, and I’m told there are far more cost effective ones out there. 

 

Thanks 

[+Isonzo Karst]

The first time i bought, which was a while back, I found the best price in teacher supply places, lab equipment, where they're sold as classroom test tubes. 

Like many other items, if you buy a lot, your unit price can drop considerably.  

 

 

I pay on the high end now, as i prefer the brown, and haven't come up with a unit cost under 1 USD. 

 

[+EggsTheBest]

I buy from this store regularly, preforms cost less than half a buck (especially if you buy larger quantities) + the shipping costs.

[+cerberus1]

Like Isonzo Karst , the other 2/3rds bought here, but we never placed one as a hide.  They all ended up as swag in caches. 

[+K13]

A search on Amazon should give the shop where I bought boxes of 30 for $20. 

[+niraD]

Do any of the preform suppliers include lids with a gasket seal? Most of the ones I've seen are just hard plastic lids with no gasket.

 

Sure, I could buy 2-liter bottles of unflavored carbonated water to get lids with good gaskets, but that seems like an expensive way to do it...

[+cerberus1]

1 hour ago, niraD said:

Do any of the preform suppliers include lids with a gasket seal? Most of the ones I've seen are just hard plastic lids with no gasket.

Sure, I could buy 2-liter bottles of unflavored carbonated water to get lids with good gaskets, but that seems like an expensive way to do it...

 

The one I mentioned has numerous people saying they use them for geocaching (in reviews). 

The description says, "they use standard plastic soda bottle tops (included)".    

Have you ever had a soda bottle leak ?  

[+lee737]

I'm about to buy another lot of the ones we've used a lot - they are big ones, about an inch diameter in side and about 8" long. You can even fit a slim TB in them. They run at about A$4 a pop on eBay (painted, including shipping). 

Edited October 10, 2019 by lee737

[+fizzymagic]

If $1 per container is too expensive, you are hiding too many caches.

[+Viajero Perdido]

2 hours ago, fizzymagic said:

If $1 per container is too expensive, you are hiding too many caches.

 

Wisdom.

 

But at $1 per container, I might bother replacing somebody's coyote-chewed, rain-soaked mess of a container that has a missing lid.  I'm much less likely to leave an ammo can out of sheer charity.

[+kunarion]

30 minutes ago, Viajero Perdido said:

But at $1 per container, I might bother replacing somebody's coyote-chewed, rain-soaked mess of a container that has a missing lid.  I'm much less likely to leave an ammo can out of sheer charity.

 

I replace my own containers, so less than $1 is better for me.  My 50ml vials were about 25 cents each, similar in size to preforms and seal about the same.  I have hundreds, but not for hundreds of caches, these are replacement containers.

 

Edited October 11, 2019 by kunarion

[+msrubble]

These PET screw-top tubes are not gasketed, but the caps have a built-in inner ring that serves a similar purpose. They would be less than $1 each with shipping if you buy more than a pack of ten.

 

I have some, but have not yet deployed them.

[+kunarion]

8 minutes ago, msrubble said:

These PET screw-top tubes are not gasketed, but the caps have a built-in inner ring that serves a similar purpose.

 

These tubes seal just as a soda bottle would (being baby soda bottles).  It's a reasonable seal, maybe not designed to be opened and closed more than a couple of times.  However, an advantage to using this particular thing is you can find caps just about anywhere for free, even gasketed caps.  Pretty handy for an attentive CO, when the old cap begins to petrify or degrade.

[+fizzymagic]

42 minutes ago, msrubble said:

These PET screw-top tubes are not gasketed, but the caps have a built-in inner ring that serves a similar purpose. They would be less than $1 each with shipping if you buy more than a pack of ten.

 

I have some, but have not yet deployed them.

 

Those are similar to preforms, and they will  have some of the same problems.  PET is a UV-sensitive plastic so any exposure to even indirect sunlight will ruin the container in a matter of months.  The effect is made even worse by high humidity.  It's not as bad as polypropylene (Tupperware, etc.) but it's not great.  Painting the outside of the container helps.  Preforms hold up reasonably well mostly because of their wall thickness.  If your tubes have thinner walls then they won't last as well.

 

If you really insist on using plastic, ABS is the absolute worst, while PTFE (Teflon), polyimide (PI, Kapton),  polyetherimide (PEI), and UV-treated polycarbonate (Lexan) are reasonably good.  I have never seen a PI or PEI container and they would be expensive in any case.

 

Why not just use an ammo can if possible?  Or an aluminum bison tube (with a waterproof log)?  I know that both are more expensive, but don't you think it is worth it to use an appropriate container?  Sure cuts down on required maintenance.

[+arisoft]

1 hour ago, fizzymagic said:

Those are similar to preforms, and they will  have some of the same problems.  PET is a UV-sensitive plastic so any exposure to even indirect sunlight will ruin the container in a matter of months.  The effect is made even worse by high humidity.  It's not as bad as polypropylene (Tupperware, etc.) but it's not great.  Painting the outside of the container helps.  Preforms hold up reasonably well mostly because of their wall thickness.  If your tubes have thinner walls then they won't last as well.

 

This is a fake news. The original study is available here https://www.plasticstoday.com/content/how-uv-light-impacts-pet-containers-and-rpet-options/51028765757108

 

The problem with UV-light is basically that it makes recycled PET yellow. It is not harmful for the cache itself until the preform is recycled.

[+Isonzo Karst]

I've switched to preforms from bisons and matchsafes  as they last longer in Florida. They stay drier.  Here moisture and sunlight are big issues, freezing not  much. I abandoned lock'n'locks as UV breaks the tabs too fast.

 

I hide preforms, wide mouth water bottles, ammo cans, and not much else.

 

They do degrade, but it takes some time.  4 and half years after placing stage coords in a preform, the UV  had degraded it to the point of needing replacement.  Only 1 stage of 10 where there's been enough sun exposure to require replacement. The other more shaded locations are still fine.

 

The lid they come with works fine, no need for some other lid.  You can replace the lid if needed.  I've done it when the original had been chewed. I have seen the lids fail to UV, by that time, the whole thing needs replaced.

[+arisoft]

54 minutes ago, Isonzo Karst said:

They do degrade, but it takes some time.  4 and half years after placing stage coords in a preform, the UV  had degraded it to the point of needing replacement.  Only 1 stage of 10 where there's been enough sun exposure to require replacement. The other more shaded locations are still fine.

 

Can you describe what actually happens to the container? It is known that temperature, moisture and UV together is the worst condition and you may have exactly this. On higher latitudes I have never seen a degraded PET-preform.

Edited October 11, 2019 by arisoft

[+kunarion]

21 hours ago, arisoft said:

 

Can you describe what actually happens to the container? It is known that temperature, moisture and UV together is the worst condition and you may have exactly this. On higher latitudes I have never seen a degraded PET-preform.

 

Is it important for a thread about where to buy cache tubes to specify exactly which wavelength of sunlight damages plastic, and the proper industrial name of the plastic? 

 

I've seen people refer to "UV", but it's likely more of a combination of things, sunlight in general combined with chemicals (water, gasses, plant and animal secretions), temperature swings, a bunch of stuff, including the particular batch of tubes from the factory.  But that's a lot to type when I'm talking about a broken plastic clip on a lock-n-lock.  Can't I just say "UV"?  I probably will anyway. 

 

What happens to the container is that it gets stiff and brittle, when it began life as a relatively soft plastic.  The seal fails, and eventually the plastic can be shattered and even crumbled to almost powder with bare hands.  Preforms are very durable, but the cap goes bad first.  It's caused by UV.

 

 

Edited October 12, 2019 by kunarion

[+arisoft]

7 minutes ago, kunarion said:

Preforms are very durable, but the cap goes bad first.

 

Squirrels eat caps. This is the usual reason for damaged caps here. The cap is different material but I have never seen a cap that has gone stiff or brittle. Anyway - caps will go first - mostly because finders drop them and do not replace.

[+kunarion]

6 minutes ago, arisoft said:

 

Squirrels eat caps. This is the usual reason for damaged caps here. The cap is different material but I have never seen a cap that has gone stiff or brittle. Anyway - caps will go first - mostly because finders drop them and do not replace.

 

Yeah.  I have seen the bottle cap stretched out of shape or cross-threaded (or gone) more often than becoming brittle.  It amazes me how some Geocachers are not at all mechanically inclined, and can't figure out how to open a preform, or how to close it.  Nor how to hold a cap without losing it.  Weird.  Bottles in general with identical caps have existed for many years without issue.

[+msrubble]

21 hours ago, fizzymagic said:

 

It's not as bad as polypropylene (Tupperware, etc.) but it's not great.  Painting the outside of the container helps.  Preforms hold up reasonably well mostly because of their wall thickness.  If your tubes have thinner walls then they won't last as well.

 

If you really insist on using plastic, ABS is the absolute worst, while PTFE (Teflon), polyimide (PI, Kapton),  polyetherimide (PEI), and UV-treated polycarbonate (Lexan) are reasonably good.  I have never seen a PI or PEI container and they would be expensive in any case.

 

Why not just use an ammo can if possible?  Or an aluminum bison tube (with a waterproof log)?  I know that both are more expensive, but don't you think it is worth it to use an appropriate container?  Sure cuts down on required maintenance.

 

I agree on the polypropylene. It gets brittle at 18 degrees F. Think it ever gets that cold in Minnesota?

 

PET is a good moisture barrier, and can handle a wide temperature range, although not quite as wide as HDPE. PET is good to 76 below.

 

I do not “really insist on using plastic.” The OP asked about preforms. I answered.

 

Ammo cans are great containers, but you certainly can’t hide one everywhere you can hide a preform. Bison tubes don’t necessarily outlast plastic. I have seen plenty of sodden logs and some cross-threaded containers.

Edited October 12, 2019 by msrubble
Trim quoted material

[+Isonzo Karst]

My experience with a preform failing in sunlight was that the lid  crumbled as I handled it, the body of the container, originally translucent, was chalky  to touch, off color - yellow/milky, in addition to simply dirty.   Unpleasant to handle, and hardly worth trying to save.  Unpainted, as I'd intended that you could read the stage coords without opening the container, at least until the container got dirty. In the shade here, they'll grow a nice green covering, and even lichen, eventually.

[+Isonzo Karst]

This topic reminded me that I need to buy some, as I have quite few out as caches, and stages, and only have a couple of replacements.   I found the brown/black as before and still around $1 USD each.

 

On a well known auction site I found the better (in my opinion) smaller size for as little as $0.28 per unit, in quantity.  I paid more than that for them, but bought a quantity that won't tax my storage ability ;-)  I'm not sure what 500 preforms looks like, and wasn't actually wanting to find out.

[+gpsblake]

Our local Dollar Tree is selling them for a dollar a piece under the guise of 15 erasers. AliExpress sells them for pennies a piece but you got to buy like 10,000 of them to get that price. 

[+DerDiedler]

13 hours ago, Isonzo Karst said:

the better (in my opinion) smaller size

I´m finding the samller ones even worse than the "normal" ones. They tempering top to buttom what most likely makes the logbook to be forced in by unpatient up-rollers.

[+arisoft]

2 hours ago, DerDiedler said:

I´m finding the samller ones even worse than the "normal" ones. They tempering top to buttom what most likely makes the logbook to be forced in by unpatient up-rollers.

 

These are the worst logbook killers

 

If you need a smaller container you can cut the top piece from two normal PET-bottles and join flanges together with strong glue. The bonus feature is that you can open the container from both ends

[+Isonzo Karst]

Forcing a too large roll into the taper may be a local thing.

I like the smaller because they're shorter, people are less apt to try to stuff extraneous matter into them, and if the log does deteriorate to a soggy mess, it's a bit easier to dig it out. 

 

Here, almost universally logs are cut to match the length, rolled, then captured with a slit straw.  I just put this together for image below (sloppy and not paper I'd use for a log).  Most people can handle this, keeps the roll a good size so that the initial taper doesn't confuse the hurried cache seeker. Generally hiders are using a water resistant paper.

[+cerberus1]

4 hours ago, Isonzo Karst said:

 

Here, almost universally logs are cut to match the length, rolled, then captured with a slit straw. 

 

 

Nice to see some folks still have straws .    

 

[+ecanderson]

Polyethylene (PET) as used in soda bottles and similar 'indoor' containers isn't UV stabilized.  You can get UV stabilized HDPE, but this isn't where it's used.

 

Actually, you've got the reverse going on with soda bottles.  In an attempt to make them more 'environmentally friendly', they sometimes add 'photo-initiators'  to create "enhanced environmentally degradable polyethylene" that is even MORE reactive to UV than normal PET. 

 

I noticed someone earlier talking about polymer behavior in specific environments -- and let me tell you, the UV up here at mile+ high is lethal on consumer grade plastics of most types.  If you want to use tie wraps to secure your outdoor drip system for the flowers around the gazebo, you'd better be buying the ones that are formulated specifically for UV resistance or they probably won't last a season.

 

 

[+arisoft]

9 hours ago, ecanderson said:

Polyethylene (PET) as used in soda bottles and similar 'indoor' containers isn't UV stabilized.  You can get UV stabilized HDPE, but this isn't where it's used.

 

In most cases the PET-container is covered with some camouflage material. Some power trails may have uncovered containers. I have never experiensed any UV-related degradion with PET-preforms. Damages I have seen are made by squirrels. Could you show an example of UV-degraded PET-preform, please.

Edited November 12, 2019 by arisoft

[+Isonzo Karst]

10 hours ago, ecanderson said:

If you want to use tie wraps .... you'd better be buying the ones that are formulated specifically for UV resistance

 

I spoke with a hider who had put out salt water paddle caches -  she had the foresight to find UV resistant tie wraps. Something I  didn't know existed.   She was familiar with their use in air conditioner installation. It's something i need to locate.

[+ecanderson]

On 11/12/2019 at 3:09 AM, arisoft said:

 

In most cases the PET-container is covered with some camouflage material. Some power trails may have uncovered containers. I have never experiensed any UV-related degradion with PET-preforms. Damages I have seen are made by squirrels. Could you show an example of UV-degraded PET-preform, please.

No photos taken, but a few logs left along the way.  What usually happens is that raw PET preform gets left tied in a tree, then winter comes and the leaves are gone for months, the container is exposed to the sun for days at a time, and the PET becomes very brittle.  After a year or two, the preform cracks.  The other thing to remember is that we get 300+ days of decent sun here, and at this altitude (we start at about 1500m and it is not uncommon to find caches at 3000m), the UV is more intense than it is at sea level.  At 3000m, it's about 45% higher than sea level, in fact.  So the 'aging' process is accelerated here.  And it isn't just PET.  There are other polymers that are even more susceptible to UV damage.  PET is actually one of the better ones we see.

 

Camo (e.g., camo colored tape) doesn't last long in the sun here, either.  First, the red and yellow colors disappear from the UV and you get blue camo <g>.  Then, the adhesive begins to fail, and then the polymers in the tape start to degrade.  The intense blue skies in the mountains are pretty, but sun here isn't very friendly.  Better to hide containers made from polymers somewhere they will be in the shade all the time.

 

[+ecanderson]

On 11/12/2019 at 5:10 AM, Isonzo Karst said:

 

I spoke with a hider who had put out salt water paddle caches -  she had the foresight to find UV resistant tie wraps. Something I  didn't know existed.   She was familiar with their use in air conditioner installation. It's something i need to locate.

They come only in black, which makes sense since there's a carbon stabilizer added to the nylon to give the UV resistance.  They are pretty readily available.  Search for 'tie wrap' and 'UV' and you'll turn up quite a lot of sources of tie wraps for outdoor use.  Even Amazon has them.  But you need to be careful.  There's no standard for "UV rated" out there.  The ideal mix includes about 2% carbon black, but there are ties out there with less than 0.1% claiming to be UV rated.  It's a bit of a buyer beware situation.

[+The Jester]

3 hours ago, ecanderson said:

No photos taken, but a few logs left along the way.  What usually happens is that raw PET preform gets left tied in a tree, then winter comes and the leaves are gone for months, the container is exposed to the sun for days at a time, and the PET becomes very brittle.  After a year or two, the preform cracks.  The other thing to remember is that we get 300+ days of decent sun here, and at this altitude (we start at about 1500m and it is not uncommon to find caches at 3000m), the UV is more intense than it is at sea level.  At 3000m, it's about 45% higher than sea level, in fact.  So the 'aging' process is accelerated here.  And it isn't just PET.  There are other polymers that are even more susceptible to UV damage.  PET is actually one of the better ones we see.

 

Camo (e.g., camo colored tape) doesn't last long in the sun here, either.  First, the red and yellow colors disappear from the UV and you get blue camo <g>.  Then, the adhesive begins to fail, and then the polymers in the tape start to degrade.  The intense blue skies in the mountains are pretty, but sun here isn't very friendly.  Better to hide containers made from polymers somewhere they will be in the shade all the time.

 

Another thing to consider, winter sun in snowy areas has almost twice the UV as snow reflects almost 95% (talk to some mountaineer's that have gotten sunburn on the roof of the mouth from panting on a snow/glacier climb or up the nostrils).

[+Isonzo Karst]

painted, rite in rain logs captured in slit straw inserted, UV tie wrap holding D ring, small gate snap on that, sticker (cost per each, as finished about 1USD):

[+kunarion]

3 hours ago, Isonzo Karst said:

painted, rite in rain logs captured in slit straw inserted, UV tie wrap holding D ring, small gate snap on that, sticker (cost per each, as finished about 1USD):

 

Those are cool!  Where did you find Geocache stickers?

 

[+CAVinoGal]

37 minutes ago, kunarion said:

Where did you find Geocache stickers?

I got some in a grab bag deal one time from the geocaching shop.  You can also buy them there - Geocaching store - stickers

[+kunarion]

1 hour ago, CAVinoGal said:

I got some in a grab bag deal one time from the geocaching shop.  You can also buy them there - Geocaching store - stickers

I’ve seen those, but they seemed to be squares.

 

 

Edited November 21, 2019 by kunarion

[+CAVinoGal]

2 hours ago, kunarion said:

I’ve seen those, but they seemed to be squares.

 

Ha ha! Right you are - I didn't look closely enough at the photo and just saw the logo and green  and "assumed".... They are round! Hmmmm.....

 

Maybe THIS will work? That site has lots of other cool stuff too!

Edited November 21, 2019 by CAVinoGal

[+Isonzo Karst]

Shop Geocaching, the round stickers don't seem want to readily appear, but they are sold there:

https://shop.geocaching.com/default/8-pack-1-round-geocaching-logo-mini-sticker-green-black.html

[+kunarion]

6 minutes ago, Isonzo Karst said:

Shop Geocaching, the round stickers don't seem want to readily appear, but they are sold there:

https://shop.geocaching.com/default/8-pack-1-round-geocaching-logo-mini-sticker-green-black.html

Cool!  I’ll compare prices and availability.  I’ve had plans to make my own, using my designs, but haven’t made any yet (in vinyl).