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TheAntHillMob

Multi, Mystery or Hybrid ?

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Hi to you all,

 

As a recent new comer to this hobby, i wanted to ask about placing a cache. My young son is itching to place a cache, and has taken to this hobby like you would not believe.
"Dad !! can we geocaching ???" everyday i get home from work worn out.   He's keen !! ok .:( ............I MEAN, KEEN !

 

"Dad !! can we geocaching ???" ......Not now i'm on the computer !!!

 

Now i wanted to ask, "Can we do the following ?"

 

Hide a cache, BUT (ITS A BIG BUT)  give the co-ordinates for the start of a set of clues,  which then lead to the Geocache.  

So the co-ordinates I give are for example the start of the beginning of a track, the next clue might suggest following the track until another landmark is seen, then the next clue suggests walk toward the landmark. At the landmark, the next clue suggests you can see another landmark that looks like (whatever) and the cache is hidden there.

 

Now in the Cache description, along with the clues, i post a link to a facebook group page (i will set up) that will actually have the actual co-ordinates of the cache, (so not on the actual description page)  just in case Mr / mrs Thicky :blink: are unable to work out the clues. (yesss, I know I'm Thicky phobic ! )

 

So this type of cache, what would it be ??  a Multi a Mystery or a Hybrid (if i include a rubber stamp).

 

Thanks in advance,

 

The Ant Hill Mob  

 

 

 

 

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From what you've written,  I have questions.

At any point are precise coordinates used for a specific location, necessary to finding the cache?   What you've described, with only coords for a trailhead won't meet the GPS usage guideline . See article in the Help Center and in the guidelines, LINKY see the requirement for "specific coordinates necessary to finding the cache".

 

Assuming that there ARE specific coordinates for a discrete location, then it depends on whether I could start with the cache page, visit the posted coords, and go forward from there, to signing the final. If yes, IF the posted coords (the ones at the top of the page that load into a gps device) are a location that MUST be visited for info (see definition of Multi-cache), then it's a Multi.  If the posted coords are just a general reference point, ie, trailhead, start here - then it's Mystery. If I could skip the trailhead, and bushwhack to the first landmark, following clues from there to final,  it's a Mystery. 

 

It can be a Letterbox hybrid by adding a stamp to either type - but take away the stamp, and it's  got to fit into either the Multi or Mystery category. Adding a stamp does NOT release you from having to meet GPS usage (a common misconception).

 

To link to Facebook, you'll need to use the disclaimer below, and it should be true ;-)

LINKY thingy

 

As the geocache owner, I ensure that this links to a local geocaching group that is active in the community and contributing to geocaching in positive ways. This link has not been checked by Geocaching HQ or by the reviewer.

 

The use of the link  to find the cache needs to be optional. Ie, someone like myself, who has no Facebook account and probably can't see your content because i cannot log into Facebook can still find your cache. Sounds like this is your intent.

 

Cache as I understand it:

1. Posted coords for "start of the beginning of a track"

2. cache page suggests following the track until a described landmark ("another landmark") is seen,

3. From the described landmark another described landmark is seen  and the cache is hidden there. 

 

 

Edited by Isonzo Karst
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3 hours ago, TheAntHillMob said:

So this type of cache, what would it be ??  a Multi a Mystery or a Hybrid (if i include a rubber stamp).

 

It is hybrid if you put a stamp.

 

Wihout a stamp it is mystery because the use of Facebook and it will not be published if it needs registering to the facebook.

 

If Facebook is optional part of the cache it could be a multi-cache.

Edited by arisoft

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Hi The Ant Hill Mob   ,

great that you (and Ant Hill Junior ) are keen to place a cache, but I note you've only been caching a few weeks, and found eleven so far, all traditional caches, and would suggest getting some experience of working out and finding a bunch of the other cache types  before thinking of placing one yourself .  You'll get a better idea of what works, both in terms of containers and hides, get more familiar with whatever device you use to point you to caches, and after finding a few letterboxes/multis/unknowns get a feel for your local customs (here in the U.K. I've visited areas half a day's drive away and found a different interpretation of what is a multi vs what is an unknown ). Plus thinking about what makes the hides/puzzles/caches you have found good quality,  long lived and above all, enjoyable to do should inform what where and how you decide to place your first cache.

 

To be honest, from your description, with no actual GPS use between points on the route, the only kind of cache which would take a finder along  a trail in the way you want is a Wherigo !

 

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5 minutes ago, hal-an-tow said:

To be honest, from your description, with no actual GPS use between points on the route, the only kind of cache which would take a finder along  a trail in the way you want is a Wherigo !

 

Can you explain this? Multi-cache requires that you must visit the posted coordinates. If the first hint is at the posted coordinates this is all you need to do to satisfy the GPS usage requirement. Other hints may look like a letterbox clues without GPS usage possibility.

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I seem to remember that you are NOT allowed to link to a websote that requires a membership or sign in.

Link to a photo hosting site or YouTube video, Ok; link to a site that I am forced to join, NOT ok.

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16 minutes ago, K13 said:

I seem to remember that you are NOT allowed to link to a websote that requires a membership or sign in.

Link to a photo hosting site or YouTube video, Ok; link to a site that I am forced to join, NOT ok.

 

I remember this different way but I may be wrong. I remember that puzzle which requires registering to a 3rd party service to solve is not allowed.

This comes directly from the guidelines so there shouldn't be anything vague about this. You can check the current ruling here

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, arisoft said:

 

Can you explain this? Multi-cache requires that you must visit the posted coordinates. If the first hint is at the posted coordinates this is all you need to do to satisfy the GPS usage requirement. Other hints may look like a letterbox clues without GPS usage possibility.

 

As a Wherigo they would go to the first stage and run the cartridge. There doesn't need to be anything physical throughout the cache until the final. If there are physical stages it would be better as a multi. But as a Wherigo you can provide hints in the app when arriving at specific locations, and the app accomplishes the GPS required portion, even though the user may never look at a set of coordinates (at least until the final coordinates are provided when the cartridge ends - afaik that is a requirement, even if the Wherigo takes you to the final).

 

(it is possible to program the Wherigo to not show you waypoints from stage to stage on the map, making the experience very much a 'follow the hints' experience)

 

* none of this matters of course if the user hacks the cartridge to 'cheat', but there's no getting around that

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1 hour ago, arisoft said:

 

Can you explain this? Multi-cache requires that you must visit the posted coordinates. If the first hint is at the posted coordinates this is all you need to do to satisfy the GPS usage requirement. Other hints may look like a letterbox clues without GPS usage possibility.

 

Yes, this sort of cache used to be quite common.  It is published as multi-cache and is often called an "offset cache".   The published coordinates are often a "virtual waypoint" (no physical container or object placed there by the CO) with directions that result in an "offset" from the published coordinate.  For example, "from the published coordinates go 225 feet, at 135 degrees from the published coordinates".  For an offset cache submitted today, I suspect that reviewers might ask the CO to provide final coordinates that would be hidden from finders, just to facilitate confirmation that there are no proximity issues.

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7 hours ago, TheAntHillMob said:

Now in the Cache description, along with the clues, i post a link to a facebook group page (i will set up) that will actually have the actual co-ordinates of the cache, (so not on the actual description page)  just in case Mr / mrs Thicky :blink: are unable to work out the clues. (yesss, I know I'm Thicky phobic ! )

Others have answered your questions as to the cache type, and other requirements needed.

 

Rather than a FB link, why not use a coordinate checker to verify the final coordinates?  You can use either the built in one, or others that are out there.  My personal preference is Certitudes.org  where you can use a keyword (work it into your multi offset clues?) that would then reveal the final coordinates and perhaps a hint to the final location.

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It is published as multi-cache and is often called an "offset cache".   The published coordinates are often a "virtual waypoint" (no physical container or object placed there by the CO) with directions that result in an "offset" from the published coordinate.  For example, "from the published coordinates go 225 feet, at 135 degrees from the published coordinates". 

 

You're mixing apples and oranges with your example. Offset does not mean projection.  If I can use your coords as the basis of a calculation, ie, work the bearing and distance from home, and just go the final, it's not a Multi-cache, it's a Mystery. 

 

For English speakers, for many years, there has been this confusion, that "offset multi-cache" meant projection. It never did.  From the wayback machine, I quote the old (2010) definition of an Offset multi as it appeared in the guidelines:

 

Offset caches are a variation on multi-caches. They are listed as a multi-cache when selecting a cache type. They are not found by simply going to some coordinates and finding a cache there. With the offset cache the published coordinates could be of an existing historical monument, plaque, or even a benchmark that you would like to have your cache hunter visit. At this spot, the hunter looks for numbers or information already appearing on the marker or on some part of the marker or site (geocachers never deface public or private property). The geocacher is then able to manipulate these numbers or information using instructions posted on the cache page to continue the hunt.

 

 

 

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Yep. Offset just means that unlike a Traditional where the cache is at the posted coordinates, in a Mystery the cache is offset by a certain amount from the posted coordinates. How that offset is determined in this case is the "mystery". (in that the method of solving and arriving at the cache location doesn't fall into the category defined by any other cache type)  Projecting a waypoint is irrelevant; it may or may not be a projection, but it needn't be.

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13 minutes ago, Isonzo Karst said:

If I can use your coords as the basis of a calculation, ie, work the bearing and distance from home, and just go the final, it's not a Multi-cache, it's a Mystery. 

 

Projection is just one way to manipulate numbers. Calculating a projection falls into multi-cache category.

 "Follow a projection starting from coordinates in the field." is explicitely allowed task for a multi-cache.

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4 minutes ago, arisoft said:
24 minutes ago, Isonzo Karst said:

If I can use your coords as the basis of a calculation, ie, work the bearing and distance from home, and just go the final, it's not a Multi-cache, it's a Mystery. 

 

Projection is just one way to manipulate numbers. Calculating a projection falls into multi-cache category.

 "Follow a projection starting from coordinates in the field." is explicitely allowed task for a multi-cache.

 

I think his point is that with a multi-cache you are intended to gather information either physically or virtually (on site) if it's a Multi-cache. If you can solve it without having to go to the posted coordinates, that qualifies as a Mystery because it's essentially a puzzle, not a Multi-stage geocache.

(again, the intent is key; some people can find ways to solve multis from home, even though that is not the owner's intent)

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12 hours ago, Isonzo Karst said:

Offset caches are a variation on multi-caches. They are listed as a multi-cache when selecting a cache type. They are not found by simply going to some coordinates and finding a cache there. With the offset cache the published coordinates could be of an existing historical monument, plaque, or even a benchmark that you would like to have your cache hunter visit. At this spot, the hunter looks for numbers or information already appearing on the marker or on some part of the marker or site (geocachers never deface public or private property). The geocacher is then able to manipulate these numbers or information using instructions posted on the cache page to continue the hunt.

Coming from a technical background in my opinion when calling a Multi an "Offset-Cache" it is compulsory that on the header coordinates (or maybe at a not so distant stage 1) you gather *all* information to calculate the final coordinate (can be distance/bearing or lat/long). If this coordinate leads to another stage it is not an offset cache but a normal multi stage Multi-Cache.

While the final coordinate can be distant it usually is not since the IMHO basic reason for making an offset cache instead of a traditional is that sometimes you can not hide a box very close to the main theme of the cache (eg a monument) but only in a safe and quiet distance.

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Sorry, I didn't intend to take this topic so far off of the original posters question. Though OP does need to understand the difference  between Multi and Mystery. 

 

@arisoft a multi-cache can include a projection, but it cannot be ONLY  a projection from posted coords that don't require a visit.  All the physical cache types now have a definition of the posted coords (posted coords means coords at the top of the listing, what loads in a device).  For a Multi-cache,  the posted coords MUST be a location necessary to finding the cache. 

 

I own a projection cache, because I carved a stamp for it, it's listed a letterbox hybrid. GC2ZX18B - formula on the page is

140 feet away at 30°

Without a stamp, it's a Mystery.  You can calculate the coords for the final, never visiting the posted coords.   Even though my intent (hope) is that you will visit the posted coords to see the windmill, that isn't necessary. 

 

Had I used the same coords  (for the windmill) and had you find a number off an old machine part at its base, and provided a formula to take that number and turn into into coords for the final, that would be an  Multi (meeting the now 10 years obsolete definition of "off-set multi-cache".)   It would be a multi-cache even if the formula was for a projection - IF the number from the windmill was part of of the projection;  because you'd need to visit the posted coords to find out how to do the projection.  Say the machine part number is 2 and I use x - that makes the formula

1(2x)0 feet away at (1+x)0°

Now it's  projection in the field from a  place where info is gathered = multi-cache.

 

Edited by Isonzo Karst

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19 hours ago, arisoft said:

 

Can you explain this? Multi-cache requires that you must visit the posted coordinates. If the first hint is at the posted coordinates this is all you need to do to satisfy the GPS usage requirement. Other hints may look like a letterbox clues without GPS usage possibility.

Yes I can

Stages on a multi cache can be bypassed by a searcher if there is no significant task involved at that waypoint, e.g. find a micro with the next co-ords, or read an inscription from a plaque to derive information . If the C.O. just suggests (as the initial post asks) 

On 10/10/2019 at 10:46 AM, TheAntHillMob said:

 ... following the track until another landmark is seen, then the next clue suggests walk toward the landmark....

there are no co-ordinates involved , no GPS use beyond the trailhead, just brains ... and cachers with brains and maps will probably mostly bypass the entire suggested route and go directly to the final, making it a traditional cache. However, the stages of a Wherigo* can simply be triggered by the cacher walking through a zone, so each location could be a Wherigo zone and the dialogue about walking towards a certain viewpoint next can be given within the Wherigo .

 

However, I'd much rather try to come up with an answer for the original query than get bogged down in a debate on what is or isn't a multi ,  letterbox or unknown type cache, so here from the Help Center - hide your cache

image.thumb.png.1de933f8c30ce11a855c56bf59e484a2.png

The relevant pages on cache types are too long to show here, but are easy to find . Trouble is, the different cache types have sort of evolved over time, the distinctions between them are not always clear (especially  to a beginner) , and the descriptions are wordy and not easy to follow. I suspect the OP's idea immediately falls foul of the GPS use requirement outlined above, even before any cache type decision needs making : what he has in mind is actually a classic letterbox , not a Groundspeak 'letter box hybrid'  cache as the current rules allow.

 

I suggest the O.P. shelves his interesting idea until he has a bit more experience, and in the meantime makes Junior happy by setting a simple straightforward traditional cache in some spot near home that they both enjoy visiting and would want to bring other folk to . See how that goes, spend a few months caching, find as many of the other cache types as you can in your area, then think about how to implement your idea within Groundspeak guidelines .

 

*Yes, I know wherigos can be cheated, but I doubt that is a simple process available to most cachers .

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6 hours ago, Isonzo Karst said:

@arisoft a multi-cache can include a projection, but it cannot be ONLY  a projection from posted coords that don't require a visit.  All the physical cache types now have a definition of the posted coords (posted coords means coords at the top of the listing, what loads in a device).  For a Multi-cache,  the posted coords MUST be a location necessary to finding the cache. 

 

A projection doesn't need to be from a virtual waypoint. A multi-stage with a projection could be a matter of going to the waypoint, gathering information there (ie, it must require a visit) in order to determine the offset and/or projection from there.

 

Projections (or offset variants) can be used in Mysteries, Multis, and Letterboxes. That's not the point.

The distinction isn't which type allows a projection, the distinction is whether a waypoint is intended to be visited (to gather newly placed physical information, or determining information based on pre-existing information)

Edited by thebruce0

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On 10/10/2019 at 11:01 AM, arisoft said:

 

I remember this different way but I may be wrong. I remember that puzzle which requires registering to a 3rd party service to solve is not allowed.

This comes directly from the guidelines so there shouldn't be anything vague about this. You can check the current ruling here

 

 

 

 

 Yes, this part is what I remembered. 

"Website registration

A cache page that requires one or more of the following will generally not be published:

  • Create an account with another website.
  • Provide personal information to another website (excluding email address and username)."

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17 minutes ago, K13 said:

Yes, this part is what I remembered. 

 

How do you interpret this? "cache page", "requires" and "generally" are the keywords.

 

How a cache page could require you to create an account or provide personal information?

Edited by arisoft

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1 hour ago, arisoft said:

 

How do you interpret this? "cache page", "requires" and "generally" are the keywords.

 

How a cache page could require you to create an account or provide personal information?

If the link you have on a cache page is to Facebook, someone would be required to give personal information to log onto that site. As you know, here are countless other examples of websites that require a person to create an account (give personal information) to view content.

 

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17 minutes ago, K13 said:

If the link you have on a cache page is to Facebook, someone would be required to give personal information to log onto that site. As you know, here are countless other examples of websites that require a person to create an account (give personal information) to view content.

 

 

How does a link require you to give personal information? Nothing happens if you decline. And the current guideline does not even mention content of the 3rd party sites. It says "cache page".

 

I know pretty well how this guideline is used by reviewers. For some reason the writing and the practice are somehow different. The extemption "(excluding email address and username)" appeared after I had an incident with a reviewer about this exact matter. Earlier this guideline was located only inside puzzle-cache chapter and the original text was: "Caches cannot require a geocacher to visit another website, if they must create an account there, or provide personal information to the other website. ". I think that this is how this guideline is still used - with puzzle caches only as they may require the user to do something with another website.

 

Recently, a reviewer accepted a Youtube video link which requires registration to Youtube. No problems because it was not required to solve the puzzle.

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Thank you to EVERYONE who has replied to my question(s), it is VERY MUCH APPRECIATED.

 

Thank you all for clarifying, pointing out rules, and for advice given.  Your replies have given me much to think about and consider, and in some cases, re-consider.

 

regards

 

The Ant Hill Mob

 

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8 hours ago, TheAntHillMob said:

Thank you to EVERYONE who has replied to my question(s), it is VERY MUCH APPRECIATED.

 

Thank you all for clarifying, pointing out rules, and for advice given.  Your replies have given me much to think about and consider, and in some cases, re-consider.

 

regards

 

The Ant Hill Mob

 

Thank you for coming back to acknowledge that you read the attempts to assist you. 

So many will ask a question, then never reply.

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