Jump to content

Caches near houses in remote areas


Zant264

Recommended Posts

OK, this is an offshoot from another thread about encountering law enforcement while geocaching. 

Out in my AO, not far from the city I live in, let's say 30 minutes drive, you can get lost in farming country.  Huge farms, mainly cash crop though some beef and occasional dairy or chicken farms. 

There are miles of empty roads,  with thousands of bushes and fences posts in which to place caches. There are several power trails around as well. 

My question, or perhaps more of a rant, is "Why are the caches placed in front of, or adjacent to, or within sight of, the only house or farm for miles when there is 20 miles of open road in any direction?" 

It is maddening to drive out for a power trail out there only to find they are all in front of houses along the only road in the area that is all high-end acreages.  Or clustered around the only farm in the area and the farmer is wondering what you are doing on his road stopping every 200 meters to get out and walk to the ditch? 

Or maybe i just prefer my caching to be done away from where people can see me? 



 

  • Upvote 3
Link to comment
1 hour ago, Zant264 said:

Out in my AO, not far from the city I live in, let's say 30 minutes drive, you can get lost in farming country.  Huge farms, mainly cash crop though some beef and occasional dairy or chicken farms. 
There are miles of empty roads,  with thousands of bushes and fences posts in which to place caches. There are several power trails around as well. 
My question, or perhaps more of a rant, is "Why are the caches placed in front of, or adjacent to, or within sight of, the only house or farm for miles when there is 20 miles of open road in any direction?" 

 

Curious, does any of these "miles of country roads" with  "thousands of bushes and fence posts" belong to someone ? 

Here, there are "miles of country roads", but that roadside acreage isn't "public" property at all.    :)

Could it be possible that the property owners prefer that they know where folks are "hanging out" on their property ?

Is the person in that house the cache owner ?   We see that a lot in rural areas here.  

 - COs allowing folks to play on their land, but want them where they can be seen (because anyone can play...).

 

Odd how when we hear of horrible things that have happened to cachers in rural areas, it seems much is due to trespassing on someone's property.

  • Helpful 1
Link to comment

I'm sure this varies radically from place to place, but in my experience, this kind of open road geocache is placed where there's a place to pull off the road. Such parking areas are often in front of a house. Having said that, in my area, rural caches are rarely placed within sight of a house. COs wanting to plant a cache on a rural road tend to skip the houses and go for the pullout down the street. Dunno if there's a practical explanation for that or it's just a cultural difference here.

Link to comment

Out here, up to the fenceline is road allowance and is public property. Crossing the fence is trespassing. There are some caches that are across the fence and when I realize that I move on. 

The fenceposts themselves are owned by the landowner. So modifying one without permission is defacing someone's property. You would even need permission to place a birdhouse; though I have seen several caches that are fake birdhouses. 

On much of this open road areas here there is no place to pull over. But that really doesn't matter as there is very little traffic. A local driving by may ask if you are OK, though often not if it looks like you are "taking a leak" which is an acceptable reason to stop and cross the ditch even to the fenceline. 

There are pullouts here and there, and a few Oil and Gas access roads going to a well site. These roads are leased by the gas and oil companies from the landowner for x dollars per year and are still private property; though again, up to the fenceline is public road allowance. 

Now we also have roads that are basic roadbeds and not maintained that are used by farmers to access their land. These are pubic roads and are often used by 4x4 people to attempt to traverse. Often there is a sucker mudhole mid-way somewhere. These make nice power trails that can be driven (as far as said mud-hole anyway then accessed from the other side), or walked and make a nice hike. 

I do understand that some COs have permission from the land owner to place a cache, and can understand that it may be where it can be monitored by said land owner. I just feel a bit odd or uncomfortable 50 or 100 metres in plain view from someone's house accessing a cache  that could be place in the dip in the road 300 metres farther along where no one would know. 

But I digress! I may prefer my caching to be stealthy and unobserved! 

  • Upvote 3
Link to comment

I did a fair share of country road caching when we lived in southwest Oklahoma.  I always wondered how many property owners had actually given permission, or were at least aware, of caches near their houses on otherwise empty roads.  I came across several gaps in series near houses that led me to believe there wasn't a lot of coordination going on with the owners, and that caches were archived when it became an issue.

 

It can get pretty serious.  There's an older forum thread from 2011 where someone was shot and injured by someone who thought he owned the land the cache was on.  (He didn't - and was jailed for assaut with a deadly weapon.)

 

And then, of course, there's this cache.  Note from the cache listing:

 

Quote

Snyder is a rough town! Drove to the GZ in the early afternoon today, found the easy way up and climbed to the top of the rock pile. I had only been searching for a few minutes when a small blue car pulled up and honked the horn. I thought that maybe another cacher had arrived at the GZ. I stepped up to the summit and waved my orange Geocaching ball cap at the car to let them know someone was here. An old timer got out of the car, went into the trunk and pulled out his shot gun!! I dove for cover just as he unloaded both barrels!! By the time I poked my head out of the rocks he was already way down the road. I took this as a "geocachers are not welcome here" sign and left without looking for the cache. I've taken my share of lumps while caching but his is above and beyond. Is this cache on private property? Maybe this old timer thinks it is. Might be a good time to move this cache before someone really gets hurt.

 

(I received no double-barrel warnings when I found the cache.  I remembered it was discussed in the forum, though I can't find the thread, but didn't realize this was the cache in question until after I'd already logged it.)

Edited by hzoi
  • Surprised 1
Link to comment

That is pretty serious! 

In Canada anyway it is illegal to defend property with a firearm, no property rights or castle law here (something I wish we had actually...).Technically you can defend your life with a firearm but you will be charged with unsafe storage in the very least and forfeit your firearms. The court proceedings may get you off on the manslaughter charges but you will be broke when it is all completed. The punishment is the process. 

I think we all need to be aware of where we are placing caches and no do so on private land.  I have backed away from caches that I thought were on private land and let them be.  Not that we have property rights here in Canada, but you can be charged with trespassing. You are not likely to get shot for trespassing out here ( you can't do so), but then you never know...and don't want to be the first one in x amount of years! 

Then of course, like you said, people may think it is there private property when it is not. They can ask you to leave.  As I said, some roads are "road allowances" and many are used by farmers to access their fields. They are but a roadbed, or not even that, just a track. Some farmers may think it is their land, but it is not and they cannot do anything legally to make you leave. In those situations I would just leave to defuse the situation though explain that I thought it was a road allowance and public property. 

 

Link to comment
4 minutes ago, Zant264 said:

Then of course, like you said, people may think it is there private property when it is not. They can ask you to leave.  As I said, some roads are "road allowances" and many are used by farmers to access their fields. They are but a roadbed, or not even that, just a track. Some farmers may think it is their land, but it is not and they cannot do anything legally to make you leave. In those situations I would just leave to defuse the situation though explain that I thought it was a road allowance and public property.

 

I had a situation like that a few years back. I was sussing out some possible virtual waypoints for a multi along a fire trail in a national park when an woman drove up, yelling at me that I was tresspassing on her land. She had two very angry large dogs in the back of her car so I didn't really want to argue, I just said I thought I was in the national park and skadoodled out of there. I later checked with the park's office and yes, I was well within the park and her property boundary was a further 3 kilometres along that road, but I decided not to procede with the cache as I didn't want any searchers getting harrassed by her. I also ran it past my reviewer who said the cache could be published but if the woman complained, it would be immediately archived even though it's nowhere near her property.

Link to comment
On ‎10‎/‎2‎/‎2019 at 7:14 PM, Zant264 said:

Out here, up to the fenceline is road allowance and is public property. Crossing the fence is trespassing. There are some caches that are across the fence and when I realize that I move on. 
The fenceposts themselves are owned by the landowner. So modifying one without permission is defacing someone's property. You would even need permission to place a birdhouse; though I have seen several caches that are fake birdhouses. 

 

I don't understand this "fence line" thing.  Please explain.  Thanks.  :)

Are you saying that all back roads there have a fence line separating private properties from the road, and land along it?

Here, there is nothing really that separates the road from our property. 

Some may post no-trespassing signs on what is their official "edge" of the right of way (the only place with trees ;-), but we pay taxes to the road.

Unless it is public property (owned by local, state, or federal government), the only people really allowed on road sides are utilities.

Farmers here may have a "fence along the roadside" to keep their livestock a safe distance from the road, but they still own that property up to the road.  

 

 

Edited by cerberus1
alarm went off, just the wind with the downpour we're having. :)
Link to comment

In many rural areas I've seen in the US agricultural property without livestock is often unfenced. Fruit groves, cotton, corn, etc. As a result there's usually no obvious indicator of where the road ROW ends and private farm property begins. Most of these are a non-issue as there is nowhere along such roads to hide a cache, but I can how it could cause problems when there are hiding places.

Link to comment
10 hours ago, Goldenwattle said:

That's different to here in Australia. There is a strip of public land beside the roads. 'The long paddock'. With or without fences.

 

Road view.jpg

Yes, and it is rare that private property is unfenced, even in the outback. BTW, the longest fence in the world is here, it's over three thousand miles long. I'm really happy that where I, and GW live, it's unlikely that we would be warned off by an armed land owner if we happened to stray. We'd more likely be asked if we are ok or need help.

Link to comment
21 hours ago, cerberus1 said:

 

I don't understand this "fence line" thing.  Please explain.  Thanks.  :)

Are you saying that all back roads there have a fence line separating private properties from the road, and land along it?

Here, there is nothing really that separates the road from our property. 

Some may post no-trespassing signs on what is their official "edge" of the right of way (the only place with trees ;-), but we pay taxes to the road.

Unless it is public property (owned by local, state, or federal government), the only people really allowed on road sides are utilities.

Farmers here may have a "fence along the roadside" to keep their livestock a safe distance from the road, but they still own that property up to the road.  

 

 

 

Similar to the picture posted above. Except most our rural roads are not paved unless a highway. Up to the fence line is "road allowance" and public property. 

There generally are fences. Mainly cash crops though there are beef operations as well. Someone's cattle get out they can ruin a grain field really quick.  

Though sometimes there are no fences beside the road either, but it is obvious the land is private land if there is a crop there. 

 

Link to comment
8 hours ago, colleda said:

the outback

Even where there are no fences, there's usually a road allowance. I was pulled off to find a cache in the photograph with the passing road train.

Of course tracks might not have areas to pull off, but it's not so important with them, as they don't have much traffic. Several caches down the track in that photograph, that I was headed to find.

Car with road train passing.jpg

Old Cobb & Co road.jpg

Edited by Goldenwattle
Link to comment
2 hours ago, Goldenwattle said:

Even where there are no fences, there's usually a road allowance. I was pulled off to find a cache in the photograph with the passing road train.

Off course tracks might not have areas to pull off, but it's not so important with them, as they don't have much traffic. Several caches down the track in that photograph, that I was headed to find.

 

Often roads and trails through national parks have an easement for them which is excised from the park, but those easements sometimes don't correspond with the actual road, particularly when the road does a dog-leg to avoid a rocky outcrop or a gully. This makes for some good cache hiding places that are surrounded by national park but are not actually in it so don't need to go through the formal national parks approval, like these two of mine:

 

image.png.b7ddb1a50f86f52286cd562f2f591505.png

 

 

Edited by barefootjeff
Link to comment
15 hours ago, colleda said:

I'm really happy that where I, and GW live, it's unlikely that we would be warned off by an armed land owner if we happened to stray. We'd more likely be asked if we are ok or need help.

 

Let's face it, even here in the states you're more likely to be asked if you need help. The notion of the country being the wild, wild, west with bullets flying around everywhere is completely fake news, even in the real west.

  • Upvote 3
  • Helpful 1
  • Love 1
Link to comment
10 hours ago, bflentje said:

 

Let's face it, even here in the states you're more likely to be asked if you need help. The notion of the country being the wild, wild, west with bullets flying around everywhere is completely fake news, even in the real west.


I my trips to the US and even living there for a while, I have found this to be true. Most Americans are very friendly people; and most generous, people I have met. And I have traveled a lot. 

  • Upvote 1
  • Love 2
Link to comment
On 10/2/2019 at 11:43 AM, NYPaddleCacher said:

I've felt uncomfortable searching for a cache within sight of a rural house and then I remember, "you don't have to find every cache"

I second that!

If there was a "Did Not Attempt" log I could have been using all along Id have a lot of DNA's. If I don't feel comfortable doing a cache, I don't do it. You may try adopting that approach.

Link to comment
On 10/3/2019 at 8:16 AM, hzoi said:

I did a fair share of country road caching when we lived in southwest Oklahoma.  

And then, of course, there's this cache.  Note from the cache listing:

 

 

(I received no double-barrel warnings when I found the cache.  I remembered it was discussed in the forum, though I can't find the thread, but didn't realize this was the cache in question until after I'd already logged it.)

Well crap. That's near my caching area!

Link to comment

Yeah a generally good idea is if there's a chance for disagreements, it doesn't matter who's right or wrong, it's usually better to just walk away - there are plenty of other places to hide a cache without potentially upsetting someone, even if they're wrong.

 

Recently we went to find a cache hidden by a friend, which was nowhere near a home, but along a rural road surrounded by forest. It was a no exit road, and at the end was a property. When we were searching for the cache, well within public access rights, a driver came down and nicely, casually, we chatted about the cache until they essentially demanded it be removed, because they consider the entire road their private property, they moved there to be away from all the public activity.

Problem is - even if they recognized that it was public land, they know where the cache is. And being public, they can easily go and take it without anyone knowing. So already there's a problem. We (with the owner) moved the cache, but there's obviously still the risk that this property owner will grow infuriated by increased traffic and watch for and hunt down the cache again.

 

It's not worth the hassle.

 

And as for placing without sight of a house - think about cache finders. Even if the owner has permission, finders may not know that, and the finding experience may not be all that fun if they think they're being an intrusion to someone's privacy. And of course if it's not with permission (yet allowed as public property) there's always the risk of the landowner taking the cache once they know of it.

 

In our area, yeah, we really tend to avoid placing caches just outside properties in rural areas.  If there is permission, then at best, the description should explicitly state that nearby homeowners know of it (a few suburb geocaches are like that, with neighbours knowing that people might be poking around a tree on the corner or on someone's property or something).  Or it's blatantly on someone's property (front yard cache, eg) so there's no question it's allowed.

 

 

Hiding on property isn't just about having legal or written permission. It's also unintended impressions of the hobby to neighbours, the experience for unbeknownst finders, and possible side-effects from angry owners who may believe they're right even if not.

 

IMO, it's a matter of using common sense, considering each of the above individuals.

Link to comment
20 hours ago, Max and 99 said:
On 10/3/2019 at 3:16 PM, hzoi said:

I did a fair share of country road caching when we lived in southwest Oklahoma.  

And then, of course, there's this cache.  Note from the cache listing:

 

 

(I received no double-barrel warnings when I found the cache.  I remembered it was discussed in the forum, though I can't find the thread, but didn't realize this was the cache in question until after I'd already logged it.)

Well crap. That's near my caching area!

Go find some of our earthcaches around Medicine Park instead.  :laughing:

Link to comment
On 10/3/2019 at 6:16 AM, hzoi said:

 

It can get pretty serious.  There's an older forum thread from 2011 where someone was shot and injured by someone who thought he owned the land the cache was on.  (He didn't - and was jailed for assaut with a deadly weapon.)

 

 

 

Actually, the cache was placed on his land - or more accurately on land held under his family trust. His ownership was not disputed at trial and may have been one reason why he was acquitted of the shooting that led to injury, but found guilty of assault on others in the caching group.  The court sentenced him to the minimum term and he was released from prison last year.  The new cache that was placed after this incident also ended up on private land, albeit by a cement company that does not seem to care.

 

It is one reason why it's important to know property lines - especially when they are shown on google maps - and secure permission.  Some things need not happen as a consequence of a container.

 

I have been approached by neighbors of property owners who told me that I was on private property.  Fortunately they did not carry guns.  

 

And I have been mystified why caches needed to be placed within view of houses on rural land - and sometimes close enough so that the dog barks.  These days I don't stop in that kind of situation.  

 

 

Edited by geodarts
  • Upvote 2
Link to comment
10 hours ago, geodarts said:
On 10/3/2019 at 3:16 PM, hzoi said:

It can get pretty serious.  There's an older forum thread from 2011 where someone was shot and injured by someone who thought he owned the land the cache was on.  (He didn't - and was jailed for assaut with a deadly weapon.)

 

Actually, the cache was placed on his land - or more accurately on land held under his family trust.

 

Thanks for the correction - I had either missed that piece, or forgotten.

Edited by hzoi
Link to comment

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
×
×
  • Create New...