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skintigh

What do the symbols on markers mean?

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I've been looking up PB&PP markers because I want to know what symbol and exact wording was on HV4826.

 

Do symbols on markers mean what type of marker they are, or what their accuracy is, or are they random?

 

I searched for a guide to the symbols but I can't seem to find one.

Some symbols I've found:

Ones I haven't seen yet but probably exist:

  • Reference markers. [I assume they have an arrow?]
  • Cross/cross hairs that I've seen on non-PB&PP disks

 

Are there more symbols?

 

Also, there is something weird going on with HV1700. Half the pictures are a marker with a circle on a rock in water, half the pictures are a marker with a triangle in the woods.

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I moved this thread from the Geocaching Topics forum.

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10 hours ago, skintigh said:

<snip>

Also, there is something weird going on with HV1700. Half the pictures are a marker with a circle on a rock in water, half the pictures are a marker with a triangle in the woods.

Nothing weird, just an incorrect recovery log. The data sheet indicates the the mark is set in a rock outcrop. The mark pictured in concrete cannot be HV1700. The mark photographed by ArtMan and seventhings is much more likely to be HV1700

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On 9/26/2019 at 4:21 PM, VAVAPAM said:

This probably offers more than you will ever want to know, but if you scroll to page 12; figures 27 & 28 (I believe), you may find the answers you seek.

 

Survey Mark History from NOAA

 

There is no such thing as more than I want to know, thank you!!!

Now I have 4 more hopefully quick yes/no questions just to clarify I have it correctly:

 

1) That paper doesn't mention PB&PP marks, is it safe to assume they used the same symbols?

 

The marker in question: https://www.geocaching.com/mark/datasheet.aspx?PID=HV4826 says:

    HORZ ORDER  -  SECOND

2) So if it has horizontal measurements that means it's a triangulation station and thus it will have a triangle with a dot as the center symbol?

 

    DESIGNATION - LOOMIS PB AND PP 1930

3) So this means "LOOMIS 1930" might be stamped at the center of the marker around the symbol, and around the edge of the marker there will be molded lettering "Public Buildings & Public Parks" like this one?

 

4) Is there any chance this is a disk molded with NGS/USGS/Coast Guard/etc. lettering, and at the center it's stamped "LOOMIS PB AND PP 1930" or some other organizational mashup like that?

 

Sorry if I seem ridiculously detailed, but I'm trying to solve a 30-year-old puzzle and the exact lettering may be key.

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Not matter the original intention of the survey mark, position or elevation, subsequent work could have both.  In other words, triangulation stations were later leveled to and had elevations determined. Also Bench Marks (elevation points) are routinely used for GPS.  Why?  Because they are there and fit the project.  

 

Back in "the day" the U.S. Coast & Geodetic Survey had essential three different survey functions for control marks.



   1)  General geodesy, set and observed by horizontal and vertical field units at the highest levels of positional accuracy.   They are the ones who set Triangulation, Traverse and Bench Mark disks.

   2)  Airport survey crews responsible for positioning major airports as the foundation for instrument approach procedures and aeronautical  charting.  In many cases these field teams were small and usually set marks labeled "Topographic"

   3) Shoreline crews - generally worked off USC&GS nautical charting ships.  The often set "Hydrographic" disks as the support for either shoreline plane table surveys and/or associated photogrammetry surveys.

Most control information for these Topographic and Hydrographic marks was managed by the respective USC&GS offices that performed shoreline mapping and aeronautical charting.  Since the majority of these stations were not observed to national geodetic standards they remained unpublished for the general public but often used for repeat mapping and charting work.  Over the years, from time-to-time some of these marks were connected by the geodetic field teams and their positions upgraded to national standards and are now published by the National Geodetic Survey.  Regrettably sometime back in the late '80s or early '90 the paper record of most of these marks were destroyed as they no longer served their original purpose with the advent of GPS.

bt DaveD (NGS Ret)

Edited by Z15

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2 hours ago, Z15 said:

Not matter the original intention of the survey mark, position or elevation, subsequent work could have both.  In other words, triangulation stations were later leveled to and had elevations determined. Also Bench Marks (elevation points) are routinely used for GPS.  Why?  Because they are there and fit the project.  

 

 

 

 

I'm not sure I follow, you might have to spoon feed it to me. I think your answer and quote doesn't apply to my question 1) and 4), just to my 2) and 3). I think you're saying it could have been a different marker and updated with Horiz later, so it might not have a triangle? That wouldn't be mentioned in the records?

 

If I understand correctly about the symbol: since the records don't mention magnetism, or gravity, it's definitely not marking the tide, it's not a reference mark, and not a state mark, that eliminates a bunch of possibilities. On page 12, figure 28, that leaves: triangulation, and maybe these 4: azimuth, traverse, geodetic, topographic. So a triangle with a dot or maybe: crossed arrow, larger triangle with a dot, crossed line, or empty circle. (I'm not sure all of those disks existed in 1930 though.) A crossed line does closer match the questionable description of "cross hairs." Thanks for that tip, as I noticed PB&PP marks with a triangle on them say "$250 fine for disturbing" whereas those with a circle say "$250 fine for disturbing benchmark." That could be important.

 

Is there any way to reverse engineer what the original symbol was? 

 

Regarding Azimuth, reference marks, long RM marks: would those all be documented and in the NGS database and come up in a search? Or could there be some undocumented azimuth/rm disks kicking around in the same area and I'm barking up the wrong tree with HV4826? If they are 1/4 mile away from triangulation stations, maybe the mystery marker is a reference marker for BOWEN, or maybe CIA TANK. Though BOWEN's paperwork listed 2 RMs about 75 feet away, not 1/4 mile.

 

Thanks!

 

 

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22 hours ago, skintigh said:

 

 

There is no such thing as more than I want to know, thank you!!!

Now I have 4 more hopefully quick yes/no questions just to clarify I have it correctly:

 

1) That paper doesn't mention PB&PP marks, is it safe to assume they used the same symbols?

 

The marker in question: https://www.geocaching.com/mark/datasheet.aspx?PID=HV4826 says:

    HORZ ORDER  -  SECOND

2) So if it has horizontal measurements that means it's a triangulation station and thus it will have a triangle with a dot as the center symbol?

 

    DESIGNATION - LOOMIS PB AND PP 1930

3) So this means "LOOMIS 1930" might be stamped at the center of the marker around the symbol, and around the edge of the marker there will be molded lettering "Public Buildings & Public Parks" like this one?

 

4) Is there any chance this is a disk molded with NGS/USGS/Coast Guard/etc. lettering, and at the center it's stamped "LOOMIS PB AND PP 1930" or some other organizational mashup like that?

 

Sorry if I seem ridiculously detailed, but I'm trying to solve a 30-year-old puzzle and the exact lettering may be key.

 

Although I'm not a marker hound, I'll be your sounding board.  :)  Hopefully, more knowledgeable folks will correct inaccuracies.

 

1) I would say Yes, given that they were both gov't entities noted as working in cooperation at that time (per Dept of Interior (PB&PP parent) reports), and guidelines were in place at that time.

2) I honestly don't know, but it may not imply that it was used as a triangulation station, rather that its measurement was figured using the Primary Azimuth (Abbott), thus it is secondary to [measured from] that azimuth. (Leveling instead of triangulation, for example.)  The report in the example you provide (Burling), specifically mentions triangulation station.  This one doesn't include that reference.

--> Edited to add:  Check page 33, figure 74.

3) Possibly, sure seems like the lettering would be similar to your example, especially as they were placed around the same time. 

4) Guess anything's possible, but since there's no mention of additions or modifications in the recovery note, I kinda doubt it.

 

Here's a thought:  You might want to search for Dept. of Commerce documentation of 1930 ... or possibly 1929.  (NGS was under DOC at that time.)  But you may find what you're seeking here:  NOAA has more NGS info - a whole timeline, etc. - that you may want to check out.  https://www.ngs.noaa.gov/web/about_ngs/history/

 

Interesting subject; thanks for asking the question.  Hope I haven't led you astray via the "blind leading blind" syndrome.  Good luck!

Edited by VAVAPAM
brain fart

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Hi All,

 

I'm thinking that this was a cadastral survey and anything with a PID is from a re-occupation during another project.   MEL

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2 hours ago, kayakbird said:

Hi All,

 

I'm thinking that this was a cadastral survey and anything with a PID is from a re-occupation during another project.   MEL

 

Hello, kayakbird.  I'm curious as to what led you to think it's a cadastral survey?  Really: I'm just curious, not challenging the opinion at all.

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51 minutes ago, VAVAPAM said:

 

Hello, kayakbird.  I'm curious as to what led you to think it's a cadastral survey?  Really: I'm just curious, not challenging the opinion at all.

 

I've found a few benchmarks that were set out by other agencies, that were used and adopted by NGS.  That's what this one sounds like.

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21 minutes ago, Harry Dolphin said:

 

I've found a few benchmarks that were set out by other agencies, that were used and adopted by NGS.  That's what this one sounds like.

 

Understood; thanks.

ETA:  Since the example was not far away and in the same year, it just seemed to make sense it might look similar ... yes?  So what clue to cadastral is there ... simply by virtue of the PB PP involvement? 

"... like this one?"

Edited by VAVAPAM

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What keeps running through my mind is that this could be like, research for a Jack Reacher - type novel. near cia ...  :D

Edited by VAVAPAM

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57 minutes ago, VAVAPAM said:

 

Understood; thanks.

ETA:  Since the example was not far away and in the same year, it just seemed to make sense it might look similar ... yes?  So what clue to cadastral is there ... simply by virtue of the PB PP involvement? 

"... like this one?"

 

Example:  https://www.geocaching.com/mark/details.aspx?PID=LY0569  Set by the PA Department of Highways.  Used by NGS in 1956.  Now an NGS Benchmark.

PADH.jpg

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Got it, thanks.  And I fully understand that what was placed by another entity might be taken over by NGS.

 

Perhaps I'm misinterpreting "cadastral survey".  I thought that referred to surveys for property boundary delineation and/or taxation.  Is that wrong?

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And apologies to the TS:  I didn't mean to hi-jack ... curiosity got the better of me.  ;)

 

Still imagine that the idea that you propose (that lettering of PB PP & Loomis may be included) would be a good assumption on what it might LOOK like, no matter the reason.  Can't guess what markings, though, without knowing its purpose.

Edited by VAVAPAM
must ... have ... more ... coffee

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OK, purpose is not ownership boundaries - maybe a general location tabulation  

 

I am not familiar with this area so I selected a six mile circle around HV4867 using 'View List' feature in the National Geodetic Survey Data Explorer tool and found a couple of PID strings (HV1927-1945 & HV2106-2108) that have 'PBPP' in the name.  Any one with GSAK loaded could filter for just that text and come up with a tabulation quickly.

 

Did notice that many marks have a VERTCON elevation or SCALED location, so not exactly precise.  In a few of the photos that I looked at I would say that the slash marks were field added to a forged circle with center dot. 

 

Snowed in out west!  MEL

 

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Wow, thanks, kayak bird, for all the follow-up! 

 

I didn't even realize GSAK could be used in such a manner - bonus!

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On 9/28/2019 at 7:15 PM, VAVAPAM said:

What keeps running through my mind is that this could be like, research for a Jack Reacher - type novel. near cia ...  :D

 

Ha ha, almost!

 

In 1990 the CIA dedicated a monument in the center of their building, named Kryptos. There are 4 (or more) ciphers on the artwork, 3 of which have been solved. One solution mentions coordinates that are near the monument, but don't seem to be pointing to anything in particular. It also talks about transmitting something underground using Earth's magnetic field, and "it's buried out there." (AFAIK there is no way to transmit something with Earth's magnetic field, and near field magnetic inductance has a max range of about 39 inches. Not sure if that's a hint about a magnetic station mark, or just artistic interpretation of radio or transmission lines or what.) But the "buried out there" part seems literal.


The artist hinted the buried thing was "important." A few years ago he went back and looked for it and it was gone. He described it as such: 

 

Quote

"The thing that was buried is a bronze USGS marker. It was half buried. It had little cross hairs on the top of it."

 

He also was apparently disappointing upon learning where his coordinates pointed, and said they should have pointed near the front door of the CIA building. How did the artist calculate those coordinates he put on the sculpture? 

 

Quote

"Jim said that the thing that was buried out there was the USGA marker. He also noted he was out there recently and it's gone now. He said that marker is how he paced off the location of the coordinates."

 

uhhhhhh...

 

So I did some hunting and found the LOOMIS mark feet from where he pointed, case closed!!! But it's not USGS, doesn't seem to have cross hairs, oh, and one other minor detail: it was destroyed in 1984. So unless Jim has a time machine he probably didn't see it. Or maybe the 1984 USGS crew went out drinking and just claimed to have destroyed the mark?

 

LOOMIS's records mention the mark BOWEN replacing it. That sounded very promising! Except BOWEN didn't exist in any database...?!? With the help of a few people in this forum a few years ago we tracked it down: when it was completed the USGS had just switched to more accurate requirements and BOWEN didn't make the cut. So its records sat unused in a filing cabinet for 40 years. I got a copy: it's 1/4 mile north at another building, so probably not what Jim saw. [Personally, it seems a little strange to put a benchmark with hyper accurate coordinates at the front door of a top target for Russia's ICBMs, then share that info on the Internet with Russia or anyone else...]

 

Anyway, I'm running out of ideas of what he saw. Are undocumented brass reference markers a thing? Yet another marker in a filing cabinet somewhere? Drunk crews in 1984 not destroying a mark?

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On 9/26/2019 at 4:21 PM, VAVAPAM said:

This probably offers more than you will ever want to know, but if you scroll to page 12; figures 27 & 28 (I believe), you may find the answers you seek.

 

Survey Mark History from NOAA

One question on your link:

Quote

"MAGNETIC STATIONS [...] Unfortunately, cultural development eliminated the usefulness of many of the stations that were established."

What in the world does that mean?

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In 1990 the CIA dedicated a monument in the center of their building, named Kryptos.


Here is the big discussion of this on the forum a few years ago, with participation by Dave Doyle.

 

Quote

"MAGNETIC STATIONS [...] Unfortunately, cultural development eliminated the usefulness of many of the stations that were established."

What in the world does that mean?

I think it means that there are too many iron objects, like water pipes, light poles, cars, concrete rebar, etc. near most of the old magnetic stations.

 

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Posted (edited)
On 10/1/2019 at 8:33 PM, Bill93 said:

Here is the big discussion of this on the forum a few years ago, with participation by Dave Doyle.

 

What in the world does that mean?

I think it means that there are too many iron objects, like water pipes, light poles, cars, concrete rebar, etc. near most of the old magnetic stations.

 

It means IMO that times have changed and there is no useful purpose for them anymore, obsolete, out-dated, old technology not applicable to modern time.  Waste of time and resources continuing etc. Similar to how cell phone are making land lines obsolete.

 

 

Edited by Z15

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Posted (edited)

Even the basic surveyor now uses GPS technology.  Like on my DOT survey crew, it replaced people.  I use to have a 2-3 man crew but when we got FHA funding to go GPS around 2000 I got 3 GPS receivers + established state wide CORS. They equipped all the DOT Survey crews with either GPS andor robotic total station/laptop computers etc and 1-man mapping and construction layout crew.  GPS Technology replaced a lot of survey jobs.  Cultural Changes.

 

For a $100,000 (more or less) they could provide a vehicle, 3 GPS receivers, misc equipment and replace a crew of 2-4 men cutting out wages, benefits and travel expenses so they could hire more managers (engineers).

 

FHA - Federal Highway Administration.

CORS - GLOBAL POSITIONING SYSTEM CONTINUOUSLY OPERATING REFERENCE STATIONS

Edited by Z15

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, Z15 said:

FHA - Federal Highway Administration.

 

FHWA officially. (They weren't ever important enough for only three letters..)

 

Jus'sayin'. :)

Edited by foxtrot_xray

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True, surveyors no longer adjust compasses for anything but rough recon. 

 

Magnetic stations are also used for the study of what's going on inside the earth and to update the charts for aviation, where magnetic compasses are still used.

 

https://www.boldmethod.com/blog/learn-to-fly/aircraft-systems/how-your-magnetic-compass-works/

Quote

It doesn't matter if you're flying a Piper Cub or a Boeing 747, you'll find a magnetic compass in the cockpits of almost any aircraft

.

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