Please Help

[fendmar]

Can someone please help me understand the definition of a "full log". Pictures would be great!

[+schmittfamily]

A full log is one where there is no more room for people to sign.

https://www.geocaching.com/seek/log.aspx?LUID=0a10562e-1bde-426f-8ddf-d7add79276ed

[+L0ne.R]

You have 14 years of geocaching experience, over 3000 finds and 37 hides.

 

I expect you've found a few full logs. 

 

Or is this a philosophical debate about the definition of "full log".  Do you believe there is no such thing as a full log?

 

Example:

 

If we can write over the other logs then is a logsheet/book ever really full?

[+cerberus1]

Curious, what's the agenda* ?   As LOne.R says, you've been around a while...       Thanks.  

 

*  Familiarize people with the topic to be discussed,   indicate other's prior knowledge , offer what outcome is expected. 

[+NanCycle]

Often it seems to be a log on which every available space is filled on one side of the page,  but the back side is all blank.

[+BethDaddyKaty]

Personally I would say that a log is full when every printed space is filled. If it isn't printed double sided, then the cache will be full when the single side is full.

 

The log may then still be usable or may not. I found a cache yesterday where the front page was entirely full and so started on the back, but the paper was very fragile and evidently wasn't going to last long written on both sides so I flagged it. However, if a hypothetical minibus of Japanese tourists had rocked up they'd have all been able to sign it. But then the log would be both very full, and disintegrating.

 

I guess it is very cache specific though. It may sound sad but I think a log is a large part of the personality/feel of a cache. For instance, with a very busy cache needing to replace the log shows how often it is found and it will soon fill up. It doesn't tell you much that someone found it earlier today or yesterday. However, when a cache is only found infrequently the log becomes quite special, adding to the sense of achievement, and the point it is "full" may well extend because... who wants to replace that?

 

So totally useless post on my part  .. depends on what you mean by full, and even then is a decision for the CO because the type of log maintained is just as much their decision as the container, placement etc.

Edited September 17, 2019 by daddybeth

[+colleda]

3 hours ago, daddybeth said:

Personally I would say that a log is full when every printed space is filled. If it isn't printed double sided, then the cache will be full when the single side is full.

 

The log may then still be usable or may not. I found a cache yesterday where the front page was entirely full and so started on the back, but the paper was very fragile and evidently wasn't going to last long written on both sides so I flagged it. However, if a hypothetical minibus of Japanese tourists had rocked up they'd have all been able to sign it. But then the log would be both very full, and disintegrating.

 

I guess it is very cache specific though. It may sound sad but I think a log is a large part of the personality/feel of a cache. For instance, with a very busy cache needing to replace the log shows how often it is found and it will soon fill up. It doesn't tell you much that someone found it earlier today or yesterday. However, when a cache is only found infrequently the log becomes quite special, adding to the sense of achievement, and the point it is "full" may well extend because... who wants to replace that?

 

So totally useless post on my part  .. depends on what you mean by full, and even then is a decision for the CO because the type of log maintained is just as much their decision as the container, placement etc.

Just because the blank side of a log sheet has no lines printed does not mean it cannot be used and is therefore full. It will be full when both sides are totally used up. As for the log being in a delicate condition, this is a separate matter and I see nothing wrong with posting a polite NM to let the CO know it could do with some attention to avert a potential future problem. You did say you "flagged" it, how? Logging an NM would be the way I would "flag" it. Mentioning a perceived problem in a Found It log may go unnoticed as not all COs read logs.

[+L0ne.R]

On 9/17/2019 at 4:01 PM, daddybeth said:

Personally I would say that a log is full when every printed space is filled. If it isn't printed double sided, then the cache will be full when the single side is full.

 

 

As an owner, that's how I define a full log. I keep my logbooks and occasionally look at them again. The pages aren't always thick and bleed through happens. I'd rather the signatures (and sometimes notes) weren't obscured. 

 

I'm in very small minority. But I just read about a CO who actually checks his button nano logs. I bet he would want to be able to read all signatures and wouldn't want people writing on the back side. 

Edited October 2, 2019 by L0ne.R
redundant word

[+niraD]

3 minutes ago, L0ne.R said:

I'm in very small minority. But I just read about a CO who actually checks his button nano logs. I bet he would want to be able to read all signatures and wouldn't want people writing on the back side. 

Every pre-printed log strip I've seen for a blinker has had (tiny) signature spaces on both sides. I take that as a sign that both sides should be used. (And blinkers already take a lot of maintenance; doubling that by not using both sides seems rude to the CO.)

[+The Jester]

4 hours ago, L0ne.R said:

 

As an owner, that's how I define a full log. I actually keep my logbooks and occasionally look at them again. The pages aren't always thick and bleed through happens. I'd rather the signatures (and sometimes notes) weren't obscured. 

 

I'm in very small minority. But I just read about a CO who actually checks his button nano logs. I bet he would want to be able to read all signatures and wouldn't want people writing on the back side. 

What about non-printed logs?  If both sides are blank isn't it a "full log" before the FTF signer?  Using only half the available space in/on a log sheet/book is, IMO, ridiculous.

[+bflentje]

On 9/17/2019 at 8:00 PM, L0ne.R said:

 

As an owner, that's how I define a full log. I actually keep my logbooks and occasionally look at them again. The pages aren't always thick and bleed through happens. I'd rather the signatures (and sometimes notes) weren't obscured. 

 

I'm in very small minority. But I just read about a CO who actually checks his button nano logs. I bet he would want to be able to read all signatures and wouldn't want people writing on the back side. 

 

Good grief. To each his own.

[+BethDaddyKaty]

On 9/18/2019 at 6:17 AM, The Jester said:

What about non-printed logs?  If both sides are blank isn't it a "full log" before the FTF signer?  Using only half the available space in/on a log sheet/book is, IMO, ridiculous.

If it isn't printed, it's up to those who find it how the log is used.

 

If it's printed and maintained, people should respect the format the CO has chosen unless they run out of space. in which case finders should use their best judgement.

 

If COs don't provide enough space on the log, finders can use their own judgement or add a new log.

 

As an example, if a CO provides a log book with space for a comment on water resistant paper, it's poor etiquette not to both leave a comment in the log, and use both sides of the paper. If you find a rarely visited bison, that may be totally inappropriate. There is a huge variety in caches and logs.

 

From my limited experience, a combination of paper quality and cache container dictates if a log can be used on both sides. If a cache isn't entirely waterproof and the log is on printer paper then the log may not be usable on both sides without damaging previous signatures. It isn't possible to give a black and white answer, other than trusting each CO and finder to make the correct choice.

Edited September 24, 2019 by daddybeth

[+The Jester]

3 hours ago, daddybeth said:

If it isn't printed, it's up to those who find it how the log is used.

 

If it's printed and maintained, people should respect the format the CO has chosen unless they run out of space. in which case finders should use their best judgement.

 

If COs don't provide enough space on the log, finders can use their own judgement or add a new log.

 

As an example, if a CO provides a log book with space for a comment on water resistant paper, it's poor etiquette not to both leave a comment in the log, and use both sides of the paper. If you find a rarely visited bison, that may be totally inappropriate. There is a huge variety in caches and logs.

 

From my limited experience, a combination of paper quality and cache container dictates if a log can be used on both sides. If a cache isn't entirely waterproof and the log is on printer paper then the log may not be usable on both sides without damaging previous signatures. It isn't possible to give a black and white answer, other than trusting each CO and finder to make the correct choice.

From my experience, reporting a log is full when the backside of the paper hasn't been used tends to tick off the CO - there have been a number of threads here where other's have shared this - you head out to do maintenance and find you've 'wasted' the trip since the log is only half full.  Printing a 'fancy' logsheet is nice, but many times the space allotted for use and the signing don't match up well - some people use stamps, others just can't write that small (me, I'm able to write three lines of readable text on the thin little strips in blinkies, but mostly use a couple of stamps, sized for the logsheet/book) - so that's a nice guide but not a hard fast rule.

 

As to the type of paper used, I'm for the Great PNW, here wet/damp logs are the rule.  One of the things I've learned - don't use a pen with ink that runs when wet, even my stamps have waterproof ink.

[+Hynz]

5 hours ago, The Jester said:

you head out to do maintenance and find you've 'wasted' the trip since the log is only half full. 

I value a mostly chronological filled logbook higher than a logbook with as less as possible white space.

But I'm speaking of log*books* which lasts for years before they need to be replaced and as an owner I will gladly replace such half filled books.

 

Of course when signing a logbook I'm using both sides of the logbook but when I see a blank left side and an almost filled up right side I'm often in a "moral conflict" if I really should break up the chronological order especially when the logbook will either way last for the next century.

[+kunarion]

12 hours ago, The Jester said:

don't use a pen with ink that runs when wet, even my stamps have waterproof ink.

 

For unmaintained trash cache logs that are perpetually full, I often find a spot where some ancient signature has bled or faded away, leaving a blank space.  But the signature will be out of sequence.  The ink, and the "waterproof paper" that seemed great at the time turned out to be not so great.

 

After fifteen years or 500 Finds, go change the log in that bison tube.  Whether it needs it or not.

[+K13]

If your cache is a typical Micro and has a strip of paper, I'll sign in the first blank space I find (unless I happen to be FTF & you have a spot for that). I'm not worried about chronological order on logsheet/strips, and if that matters to a CO, they can adjust their expectations.

If your cache has a log BOOK, I'll go to the next available page and write a sentence or a few.

[+VAVAPAM]

On 9/17/2019 at 1:45 PM, fendmar said:

Can someone please help me understand the definition of a "full log". Pictures would be great!

No photo here, because it was an online log including the statement, "Full Log."

It was an editing note, explaining the reason for the edit.  (Field log posted earlier in the day; full log followed.)

I realized after about 20 of 50 that the "full log" note might be misinterpreted to mean maintenance was needed, so I changed to "Complete log." 

Thought I caught them all, but could have missed a few.

 

 

[+bflentje]

9 hours ago, Hynz said:

I value a mostly chronological filled logbook higher than a logbook with as less as possible white space.

But I'm speaking of log*books* which lasts for years before they need to be replaced and as an owner I will gladly replace such half filled books.

 

Of course when signing a logbook I'm using both sides of the logbook but when I see a blank left side and an almost filled up right side I'm often in a "moral conflict" if I really should break up the chronological order especially when the logbook will either way last for the next century.

 

Moral conflict? 

[+Wet Pancake Touring Club]

Just write "This page intentionally left blank." on the left side. Conflict resolved! 

[+Ambrosia]

In my micros, I use a strip of paper with a disclaimer fully covering one side, and the other side is completely blank, to be used for signatures. I also add completely blank strips of paper if the micro is big enough (which all of mine are), for extra signatures. When I first started, I printed the signature side with numbers and lines, but I gave up after a while. I don't really want to print both sides of a paper, and it doesn't seem to be needed. The numbers end up not meaning anything, when people start using more than one line or logging in different spots, anyway.

 

I had someone log online once that they couldn't put their signature in the cache because all they found was a disclaimer. That made me laugh. 

[+kunarion]

19 minutes ago, Ambrosia said:

In my micros, I use a strip of paper with a disclaimer fully covering one side, and the other side is completely blank, to be used for signatures.

 

Brilliant!  For my fancier themed Micros, I've printed my cache info along with the lines.  No reason I couldn't still have a cache-specific "themed" log sheet with nice big cache info, blank on the back for signatures.  I'll try that!

 

 

 

 

19 minutes ago, Ambrosia said:

I had someone log online once that they couldn't put their signature in the cache because all they found was a disclaimer. That made me laugh. 

 

 

 

Edited September 29, 2019 by kunarion

[+Ambrosia]

Your logsheet is pretty, kunarion! I like it.  I just use a standard disclaimer, and have added my email address at the bottom.

[+WRASTRO]

I am yet to encounter a cache description that included instructions regarding log signing etiquette other than "please use initials only" on some nanos. I certainly have not seen any that request logging in chronological order only. I sign where I can find space. Usually in order, but not always. And I also have never come across a situation where it was requested to only sign on one side of the log.

[+The A-Team]

21 hours ago, WRASTRO said:

I am yet to encounter a cache description that included instructions regarding log signing etiquette other than "please use initials only" on some nanos. I certainly have not seen any that request logging in chronological order only.

We recently had some drama here in the forums after a CO put a request in their cache listings to write sequentially on the logsheet, one finder chose not to heed this request, and drama ensued. I think the general consensus of the situation was that such a request was unnecessary micro-managing (and that both parties unnecessarily fueled the drama).

 

Quote

And I also have never come across a situation where it was requested to only sign on one side of the log.

Yeah, I haven't seen that. That would certainly be an odd one. Personally, if I see that previous cachers have been neglecting to use the back of log pages, I'll use that space.

[+TeamRabbitRun]

On ‎10‎/‎2‎/‎2019 at 6:01 PM, The A-Team said:

Yeah, I haven't seen that. That would certainly be an odd one. Personally, if I see that previous cachers have been neglecting to use the back of log pages, I'll use that space.

 

Easy fix for this.

Flip the bottom of your log strip over and tape it to the top, backwards.

That makes it a Mobius Strip.

 

I DARE you to try and sign the back!

[+The Jester]

2 hours ago, TeamRabbitRun said:

 

Easy fix for this.

Flip the bottom of your log strip over and tape it to the top, backwards.

That makes it a Mobius Strip.

 

I DARE you to try and sign the back!

I DARE you to try and sign the front!  Being there is only one side, there is no front or back (both require the other to define themselves).

 

And, how the heck do you figure out where to sign as FTF?  There's no beginning!

 

This, of course, reminds me of my favorite Space Child Mother's Goose ditty:

Flappity, floppity, flip

the mouse on the Mobius Strip

the strip revolved

the mouse dissolved

in a chrono-dimensional skip.