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dreamhummie

Medal Of Honor Resting Places

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After my vacation we want to visit Margraten for some Medal of Honor Waymarks.

Unfortunately these 7 MoH places in Margraten have already been posted and approved with 1 wikipedia photo.
Shame on you Officers. Maybe more investigation if its a own taken picture.

Why don't ask 2 if your not trust it.
Pictures are coming from Wikipedia, Findagrave etc.

Pictures a posted under several (nick) names on these websites.

Are you taken pics and posted on these websites with several (nick) names ??

John.

 

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If you look at the profile of the Don.Morfe, you will see that he visits such sites since 1999 and that he posted photos on findagrave. I also post photos I made of certain graves on Waymarking.com and additionally on findagrave and I don't use the same username on these two websites.

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23 minutes ago, PISA-caching said:

If you look at the profile of the Don.Morfe, you will see that he visits such sites since 1999 and that he posted photos on findagrave. I also post photos I made of certain graves on Waymarking.com and additionally on findagrave and I don't use the same username on these two websites.

I was going to say the same thing!

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On 9/15/2019 at 11:29 AM, dreamhummie said:

After my vacation we want to visit Margraten for some Medal of Honor Waymarks.

Unfortunately these 7 MoH places in Margraten have already been posted and approved with 1 wikipedia photo.
Shame on you Officers. Maybe more investigation if its a own taken picture.

Why don't ask 2 if your not trust it.
Pictures are coming from Wikipedia, Findagrave etc.

Pictures a posted under several (nick) names on these websites.

Are you taken pics and posted on these websites with several (nick) names ??

John.

 

I'm sorry - I'm the officer approving those waymarks.  I have approved a huge number of these Medal of Honor waymarks for this waymarker as he has previously documented these for other sites.  Believe it or not, Waymarking.com ISN'T the only place to document these.  Maybe some investigation on YOUR part to see if these had already been waymarked should have been in order, possibly?  
Now, since I KNOW this waymarker and I have approved most of these for this waymarker, please do your own research before you go on a rant.  I will stand by my reputation as an officer and an approver in this community.
Apology accepted - there is nothing stopping you in posting a visit on these waymarks.  They are just as valuable as a post!

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If you did visit these waymarks, why did you not log your visits?

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I've watched these waymarks come in too. These are mostly (all?) scanned photos. His visits were done so long ago that I sincerely doubt that he has any coordinates acquired with a GPSr device.

 

I was working on Waymarking the 30+ MOH winners at the San Francisco National Cemetery. Somehow I ended up with no photos for one of the MOHs. I went back and got the photos and submitted the waymark that I'd already started. It came back as a duplicate. I found that Morfe had snuck in and posted it - WMWTEM  His coordinates were way off, like they were a guess in the area. He has also draped a blue flag on the grave in his photo, which I can tell you is not there or anywhere in the cemetery, at any other MOH winners.

 

The category says "Do not place anything on the grave when taking the photo." You will find his blue flag in many of his waymarks - WM112YBWM115J6WM115KZWM1160TWM114X6WM112BVWM114X2WM111BEWM10Y9GWM10XQZWM10XQWWM10XBAWM10WVVWM10WVN, ... the list goes on and on. Scroll through the MOH category and you'll see his blue flag added to many of his waymarks.

 

In my opinion, these are all invalid waymarks, because he has placed his flag on the headstones.

 

Invalid coordinates are another reason to reject a waymark. i think i'd be surprised if many of his coordinates lead you directly to the right MOH headstone. He wanted me to tell him the right coordinates for WMWTEM, so he could correct them.

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7 minutes ago, DougK said:

I've watched these waymarks come in too. These are mostly (all?) scanned photos. His visits were done so long ago that I sincerely doubt that he has any coordinates acquired with a GPSr device.

 

I was working on Waymarking the 30+ MOH winners at the San Francisco National Cemetery. Somehow I ended up with no photos for one of the MOHs. I went back and got the photos and submitted the waymark that I'd already started. It came back as a duplicate. I found that Morfe had snuck in and posted it - WMWTEM  His coordinates were way off, like they were a guess in the area. He has also draped a blue flag on the grave in his photo, which I can tell you is not there or anywhere in the cemetery, at any other MOH winners.

 

The category says "Do not place anything on the grave when taking the photo." You will find his blue flag in many of his waymarks - WM112YBWM115J6WM115KZWM1160TWM114X6WM112BVWM114X2WM111BEWM10Y9GWM10XQZWM10XQWWM10XBAWM10WVVWM10WVN, ... the list goes on and on. Scroll through the MOH category and you'll see his blue flag added to many of his waymarks.

 

In my opinion, these are all invalid waymarks, because he has placed his flag on the headstones.

 

Invalid coordinates are another reason to reject a waymark. i think i'd be surprised if many of his coordinates lead you directly to the right MOH headstone. He wanted me to tell him the right coordinates for WMWTEM, so he could correct them.

MOH is earned, not won.

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5 hours ago, Max and 99 said:

MOH is earned, not won.

 

I was going to say the same thing!  :D

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6 hours ago, DougK said:

His visits were done so long ago that I sincerely doubt that he has any coordinates acquired with a GPSr device.

I've visited at least one, and the coordinates were perfect.

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7 hours ago, Max and 99 said:

I've visited at least one, and the coordinates were perfect.

Let's put this to rest...  DougK, lets be frank about this and state that the waymark that Don.Morfe posted was placed several months before you came back and tried to post.  You then wanted me to retroactively deny Don's waymark because of the reasons you gave.  Are you absolutely positive that the flag was placed by Don Morfe?  How do I know, as a reviewer, that your coordinates are good and his are bad without flying to San Francisco, which, although I'd like to do someday, to settle a dispute on a waymark.  You realize that is really out of my budget as a volunteer reviewer.  I'm really not getting this at all, seriously, why isn't a visit not as valuable as a post?  Is everyone THAT fixated on post numbers?  
If you also remember, I WAS the one that told you could make an edit on the current waymark of Don.Morfe's - not Don - I wasn't going to go and retroactively deny Don's waymark just so that you could post. That wasn't fair to Don.Morfe because YOU failed to get the required photo of the gravesite the first time around.... You know, that happens - but your failure isn't a reason to punish another waymarker.  Accept YOU failed; learn from it; move on.
 
I just spent two weeks in Utah.  You know, I was just as happy posting a visit as I was posting a new waymark - actually, I was surprised when I actually got postings just because of the quantity of waymarks out there in the state.  Dang people - relax.  


Those pictures of Don.Morfe's are his.  They are valid in the category Medal of Honor resting places.  I'm sorry that a gentleman had made it is life's work to document these - I actually think it is quite a feat and I applaud him.  Unfortunately, BruceS is no longer with us as the leader of the MOH group - I was only able to go be the category description as it was left by BruceS.  I find it incredible that one waymarker, no now two, would impugn the character of another waymarker.  I guess everything is fair when it might be possible to get that extra posting number.  Sheesh.

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On 9/16/2019 at 6:27 AM, PISA-caching said:

If you look at the profile of the Don.Morfe, you will see that he visits such sites since 1999 and that he posted photos on findagrave. I also post photos I made of certain graves on Waymarking.com and additionally on findagrave and I don't use the same username on these two websites.

 

I have a few waymarks here where not only have I been the guy who submitted the photos (and GPS sometimes!) to Findagrave, but I've also been the one who actually created that person's Findagrave page!

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2 hours ago, QuarrellaDeVil said:

 

I have a few waymarks here where not only have I been the guy who submitted the photos (and GPS sometimes!) to Findagrave, but I've also been the one who actually created that person's Findagrave page!

I can imagine with the quantity of cemeteries you haunt, Steve!  LOL 

I have a few myself, and I have even gotten feed back from relatives thanking me because they were able to locate their lost love one through Waymarking even though the headstone was over at findagrave.  You never know...

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My MOH story:

 

NOTE: I don't consider myself a numbers waymarker at all. My goal when I started Waymarking was to try and find one waymark to fit in every category. Of all my Waymarking category posts, 50% just have one waymark and probably 75% of my categories have two or three waymarks.

 

In 2014 I started looking for a Medal of Honor recipient to waymark. I found the San Francisco national cemetery had 37 Medal of Honor recipients buried there. Since Saopaulo had only waymarked two of them, I thought this would be a nice collection of MOH grave sites to visit and produce a nice set of waymarks with my quality standards.

 

I spent a lot of research, preparation and trips over time working on this set. For something as small as a headstone, the coordinates need to be as accurate as possible to lead you to a headstone among many like it. I use waypoint averaging, which samples coordinates over a period of time until readings settle on a value, that has a confidence level of 100% of being within 6-10 feet. This often takes 2-5 minutes to get to the 100% confidence level.

 

So I walked the cemetery, searching for headstones. When I find one, I have a number of steps to perform at each site. Takes notes, wait for the GPSr to complete  averaging, take photos without the GPSr on the headstone. Sometimes I took photos before starting the GPSr, sometimes I would take photos after the GPSr settled and was removed from the headstone.  It seems I got distracted and forgot to get photos once, because I was waiting for the GPSr to settle. I completed some of the MOH recipients that year, but not all of them.

 

in 2017 NW_History_Buff contacted me about photos that were coming in with Don.Morfe's MOH submissions. I guess I had a past reputation for unearthing pilfered/improper photos used in waymarks over the years and he wanted my opinion. After looking at several of his waymarks I could see from the EXIF information in Don's photos that they were scanned photos. My response to him at that time was that he'd probably taken his photos a long time ago with a non-digital camera and had scanned them into a digital format. After looking at his profile then, I told NW_History_Buff that this was probably the first of many that he would be receiving in the category.

 

Well this also tipped me off that if I wanted to complete the MOH collection in San Francisco National Cemetery I had envisioned, that I needed to get this done immediately. So, I made another trip and walked the cemetery all day, taking notes, collecting coordinates and photos. After getting home and producing all the waymarks, I found I only had coordinates for Lawton, but no photos. I submitted the waymarks that were complete and started a waymark with all the information except the photos for Lawton, knowing I had to make another trip up to San Francisco. I lingered a few weeks hoping Morfe might look at all the San Francisco Nation Cemetery waymarks and think it was already complete. He did discover the holes that I'd left and filled them in with his own waymarks. By the time I finally got the photos and submitted mine (it didn't show as a duplicate, because I'd already created it), it was rejected as a duplicate. It has a lower Waymarking code than Morfe's, showing my intent.

 

I would invite anyone to look at my collection of MOH recipients from San Francisco National Cemetery. There is a consistency and uniformity that I maintained to honor all these people.

 

After examining Morfe's WMYAKZ, I realized his coordinates were over 100 feet away from mine! In addition it has his blue flag resting in front of the headstone. Those are two reasons to declare this waymark invalid.

 

So my disappointment is that the San Francisco National Cemetery MOH waymarks have photos with blue flags, which are not there and have inaccurate coordinates.

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On 9/17/2019 at 8:47 AM, iconions said:

lets be frank about this and state that the waymark that Don.Morfe posted was placed several months before you came back and tried to post.

My WMxxxx waymark code was lower than Morfe's WMYAKZ, showing my intent.

 

On 9/17/2019 at 8:47 AM, iconions said:

You then wanted me to retroactively deny Don's waymark because of the reasons you gave.

Yes, it has incorrect coordinates and has a blue flagged draped in front of the headstone.

 

On 9/17/2019 at 8:47 AM, iconions said:

Are you absolutely positive that the flag was placed by Don Morfe?

That flag is not present on any of the 35+ MOH gravesite in San Francisco National Cemetery. Have you ever seen one of these flag when visiting an MOH gravesite? Look through the complete MOH Waymarking category and notice that the ONLY photos with a blue flag in them are from Don Morfe. It's not hard to come to the conclusion that he carries the flag with him and places it there.

 

But just to be 'absolutely positive', I asked him where he got his blue flag. Don replied that a friend in the American Legion got the blue flags from their store.

 

On 9/17/2019 at 8:47 AM, iconions said:

How do I know, as a reviewer, that your coordinates are good and his are bad without flying to San Francisco to settle a dispute on a waymark.

Well I found the Medal of Honor Society website where Don's getting all of his coordinates.

Then after reading his profile,  he says he posted all is coordinates to that website. What a nice circular reference.

 

Since he says he started in 1999, before digital cameras with GPS and GPS receivers were available, I asked him where he got all of his coordinates.

He replied "in 2008 and thereafter I then went to Google Earth and put the cursor on the grave location and it then showed the GPS Coordinates. Keep in mind using 4 digit decimal GPS the object can be off as much as 25 feet depending on the weather."

 

That would pretty much invalidate all of his submissions by strict Waymarking standards.

 

So yesterday, I made another trip up to San Francisco to verify coordinates. Heres my simple setup.

494038102_JohnS.LawtonandGPSr(small).jpg.e8738f6a81f34e2205ed9a98060d5040.jpg   2040831909_GPSrCoordsBlurred(small).jpg.4c67c3b0f45db74a1354bd61b66822b6.jpg

 

After three minutes of waypoint averaging, I came out with the same coordinates as before. (They are blurred because it's my Waymarking work product.)

At that location, I put in the coordinates from Morfe's WMYAKZ, and my GPSr said I was 106 feet away!

This is pretty inaccurate when you're standing among thousands of similar headstones.

 

On 9/17/2019 at 8:47 AM, iconions said:

why isn't a visit not as valuable as a post?  Is everyone THAT fixated on post numbers?

Every Waymarker knows a posting and a visit are different. A posting takes a lot more work.

 

I'm not posting a visit log to a waymark with inaccurate coordinates. Our esteemed colleague, BruceS, once said an waymark with incorrect coordinates is an invalid waymark. I've once reposted a place with accurate coordinates and had the original rejected, so there is precedence.

 

What bothers me most is that the current collection of MOH recipients at San Francisco National Cemetery, that I worked on and tried to do so nicely, now has waymarks with inaccurate coordinates and blue flags sprinkled in.

 

Now that I sort the waymarks into alphabetical order, I see that there are two waymarks for Charles Varnum, one I posted in 2014 WMJYB2, and a Morfe waymark from 2018, WMYHZZ.  Agreed, that when you're verifying these submission, you probably get hit with 30+ nearby MOH waymarks and you might not spot the duplicate so far down the list, because these coordinates are inaccurate as well.

 

I also stopped by this grave site again yesterday. Same setup:

 

763789624_CharlsVarnumandGPSr(small).jpg.f008d72099d4a7cbf230137928b876cc.jpg  2146717868_GPSr(small).jpg.eed74b50eb52ff16bd0733e0ac3b7d02.jpg

 

Coordinates are not blurred here, because clearly they match my original submission. Check Morfe's coordinates.

So there's the inaccurate coordinates again and the same blue flag again. WMYHZZ should be re-valuated and declined.

 

On 9/17/2019 at 8:47 AM, iconions said:

Those pictures of Don.Morfe's are his.  They are valid in the category Medal of Honor resting places. 

I agree that those are Don's photos, but scrolling through the category, I'd estimate that 10-20% have that blue flag draped, or mounted somewhere in the photos. Surely BruceS had this in mind when the MOH Waymarking category was developed. "Do not place anything on the grave when taking the photo." When Morfe took his photos, he wasn't taking them to meet MOH Waymarking requirements, though many of his photos are acceptable. 

 

Knowing how he's acquiring coordinates at this point makes me doubt their accuracy and validity. I certainly doubt the accuracy his Google Earth acquired coordinates that he's proliferated at the MOH Historical Society. I've proved two of them wrong that I have first hand knowledge and multiple verifications. I don't have the will and time to go through the 35+ coordinates he put in for the other MOHs in San Francisco National Cemetery at that website. I just don't believe you can accurately pick out a particular gravesite in Google Earth and come up with correct coordinates, accurate to within 10 feet.

 

Honestly I think it's great and commendable that Don has devoted so much of his life to visiting Medal of Honor grave sites. His recent Belgium and overseas MOH waymarks are outstanding. But technically, some of his older work is not compatible with the MOH Waymarking category. I think the officers are overlooking category requirements to accept his work. Interestingly, he seems to have dropped his flag from photos too.

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http://www.Waymarking.com/waymarks/WM117B1_Ulysses_Grant_Buzzard_Cebu_Philippines

 

At the end of the description is written "Photo by Joseph Keene and posted on findagrave.com"

 

http://www.Waymarking.com/waymarks/WM117AZ_Maurice_Wagg_Newham_England

 

...Photo by Vonderene and posted on findagrave.com

 

http://www.Waymarking.com/waymarks/WM117AW_Henry_Holden_Brighton_England

 

...Photos by Iain MacFarline and posted on findagrave.com

 

If I understand this right, these pictures are not taken by Don, if so, these should be declined here at Waymarking.com

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Do the photos have to be taken by the person posting the waymark, or is the poster allowed to use someone else's photos if permission has been granted?

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Is this a situation where an individual's profound passion for the category is as important as the rules for the category?

 

Perhaps you should grandfather in all present waymarks.  Adjust category leadership so that category description can be edited.  Edit category requirements, specifically describing rules: accurate co-ordinates obtained on site, photographs taken during waymarker's visit on site, none of waymarker's objects in photographs, more than one photograph, etc.

 

Or continue to squabble.

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1 hour ago, elyob said:

Grandfather in all present waymarks.

You would grant a pass to 5/6 of all the waymarks in the category?

These waymarks should have been questioned two years ago.

 

At this point there are now less than 500 Medal of Honor sites remaining to waymark in the world. 

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I will edit my previous post.

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13 hours ago, Max and 99 said:

Do the photos have to be taken by the person posting the waymark, or is the poster allowed to use someone else's photos if permission has been granted?

Permission was granted to use those photos by the owner of the copyright of the photo and properly marked in the waymark - nothing in the category description states that isn't allowed AND it isn't against the terms of use.  
This is an original category for Waymarking - I'm sorry, people have had 14 years to post items in here.  There was always going to be a finite number of waymarks for this category.  
As far as those blue flags - I have already explained, I'm not going to question someone if that object was at the gravesite put by a relative or not.  Sorry, that is tacky at best and downright rude at worse.  The reason for that rule was to keep GPS units off the gravesites.  C'mon, let's show a little class.  I'm not about to tell someone to remove ALL objects including flowers placed by loved ones JUST for a waymark - can we please be real?  
 

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Just a hint - you CAN post a visit...  oh wait, nevermind, we've discussed this already.

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2 hours ago, iconions said:

As far as those blue flags - I have already explained, I'm not going to question someone if that object was at the gravesite put by a relative or not.  Sorry, that is tacky at best and downright rude at worse.  The reason for that rule was to keep GPS units off the gravesites.  C'mon, let's show a little class.  I'm not about to tell someone to remove ALL objects including flowers placed by loved ones JUST for a waymark - can we please be real?  
 

I have posted a visit to a MoH gravesite (in Fort Myers, FL) ( Waymark Code: WM4NAR )and I put my hat alongside the marker to take the picture. True, I had not just read the category rules. But in other visits I have made, it was called into question if I had actually taken the picture or pulled it off the internet. So I started putting my hat on the waymark, if possible, to kind of prove that I had been at the site.

Next time I go visit Mom in Ft Myers, I'll go back and take a replacement picture. But if I EVER get questioned on a visit for "That looks  just like the picture on FindAGrave, crap is gonna hit the fan! Of course it will look like it, it is a picture of a gravestone from the front!

Just like the above discussion -- did he take the picture. How are you going to know, if you can't have something in the picture to say you took it? Maybe I should take my pictures from the left side, not straight on? DougK will have to take his from the right. (We'll run out of positions pretty quickly)

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9 hours ago, iconions said:

Permission was granted to use those photos by the owner of the copyright of the photo and properly marked in the waymark - nothing in the category description states that isn't allowed AND it isn't against the terms of use...

 

I'm not sure if we should accept this way to play the game. In this case all the graves have been documented on other websites, like findagra... So on Waymarking.com waymarks should be created by waymarkers who personally visit a site/place and take coordinates by themselves (For me it's not so important if they have 6 m or 10 m in accuracy). I thought we played it like this all the years. It's great that Don visited so many graves and submitted them to our database but I feel unwell if the last 400 possible waymarks would be submitted with: "pictures taken by...." Coordinates taken from ..." I'm open to discuss this in a friendly way. 

Edited by lumbricus
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15 hours ago, lumbricus said:

 

I'm not sure if we should accept this way to play the game. In this case all the graves have been documented on other websites, like findagra... So on Waymarking.com waymarks should be created by waymarkers who personally visit a site/place and take coordinates by themselves (For me it's not so important if they have 6 m or 10 m in accuracy). I thought we played it like this all the years. It's great that Don visited so many graves and submitted them to our database but I feel unwell if the last 400 possible waymarks would be submitted with: "pictures taken by...." Coordinates taken from ..." I'm open to discuss this in a friendly way. 

 

How would you feel if the visits were made for Don by his family or his friends?

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8 minutes ago, elyob said:

 

How would you feel if the visits were made for Don by his family or his friends?

By "visits" do you mean trips to the cemetery to get photos and coords to post a waymark? 

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9 minutes ago, Max and 99 said:

By "visits" do you mean trips to the cemetery to get photos and coords to post a waymark? 

 

Correct, let's say Don gets to the point that he can no longer physically visit the MoH sites as he has for decades, is it ever acceptable to have visits made for him?

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On ‎9‎/‎22‎/‎2019 at 6:38 AM, lumbricus said:

 

I'm not sure if we should accept this way to play the game. In this case all the graves have been documented on other websites, like findagra... So on Waymarking.com waymarks should be created by waymarkers who personally visit a site/place and take coordinates by themselves (For me it's not so important if they have 6 m or 10 m in accuracy). I thought we played it like this all the years. It's great that Don visited so many graves and submitted them to our database but I feel unwell if the last 400 possible waymarks would be submitted with: "pictures taken by...." Coordinates taken from ..." I'm open to discuss this in a friendly way. 

 

I'm pretty sure that the vast majority of all the waymarks we have was created just like we all expect them to be created. But I can imagine, that under certain circumstances, one waymarker or the other will go a different way. For example: Here in Vienna, Austria we have a great website to find a certain grave. They have precise coordinates, so that people can find the specific grave they are looking for. To me it doesn't make much sense to stand at a foreign grave for several minutes to get almost exactly the same coordinates that are already in their database. So to me it doesn't really matter, whether the waymarker took the coordinates him-/herself or from a good source. I wouldn't be surprised, if some coordinates where taken from Wikipedia for example, although I would never use those.

 

Regarding Don.Morfe's blue flag: He took the photos before he started Waymarking and looking at the waymarks, I can't see why those flags should be a reason to delete these waymarks.

 

Regarding Don.Morfe's coordinates: It's a shame that they are not as precise as they should be, but every visitor has the opportunity to either give Don.Morfe more accurate coordinates or edit the waymark.

 

Regarding "pictures taken by...": All the photos of my waymarks (and visits) were taken by me or my girlfriend (PISA-caching is the account of us two). If she took the photo, I sure was also around, and therefore I don't have a problem using "her" photos, although she isn't interested in Waymarking at all. Would I use a photo from somebody else who made it in a location that I have never seen in person? No, because I want to browse through my waymarks and visits and see locations I have seen in my life and nothing else. But if someone wants to have a waymark in (for example) the Chronograms category and just can't find one in his/her part of the world, I would offer to take photos of one and give them to that waymarker. It's not the way I would play the game, but it is no problem for me, if someone uses someone else's photos, as long as they are not stolen from some website or something. After all, Waymarking is there to help people find things. And the person who finds that Chronogram will not care whether photo, coordinates and waymark are all by me or somebody else. They want to have good coordinates, quality photos and a good description.

 

If we start to delete every waymark that hasn't been done 100% correct, we will not win much, but loose some waymarkers who do their best to contribute.

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if we let these waymarks go, then I can decide to waymark all US Air Force installations from my recliner. I can go to the base's own website and get the picture, and get coordinates from Google Maps. Not a problem because " how long will it take until some waymarker visits (insert base name here) in person to create a "legal" waymark instead? "

 

I don't think that's a precedent we want to start.

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If the US Air Force gives you the right to use their photos, I don't see that as a problem. And I admit that I have used coordinates from Google Maps in a few of my waymarks. Most of the time, because I hadn't noticed that my GPS hasn't been precise when I took the coordinates. And depending on the size of the waymark (insect hotel versus natural lakes ;)), it sometimes is more important to have accurate coordinates and sometimes it doesn't really matter. Anyway, lumbricus wanted to discuss the subject and I stated my opinion. We'll see what the officers of the category decide.

 

 

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On ‎9‎/‎22‎/‎2019 at 10:27 PM, elyob said:

 

Correct, let's say Don gets to the point that he can no longer physically visit the MoH sites as he has for decades, is it ever acceptable to have visits made for him?

 

I must think about that in peace and quiet.

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On 9/22/2019 at 3:27 PM, elyob said:

 

Correct, let's say Don gets to the point that he can no longer physically visit the MoH sites as he has for decades, is it ever acceptable to have visits made for him?

we do that for "Where's In A Name" every time we do a post in this category. But, that is a special circumstance.

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Sounds like there are "good" and "bad" special circumstances. ;)

 

In all seriousness: If we start to think about theories: Let's say that Don.Morfe asks me to visit a MOH site here in Vienna, Austria (no, there is no MOH site here - it's just a theory) and to take photos and coordinates for him - would that be acceptable? "Heck, why not?" I ask.

 

Also: If I grab an uncategorized waymark I might end up with a waymark with the photos and coordinates taken by somebody else. The only difference is, that Don.Morfe used photos from somebody outside the Waymarking community, So, no matter what someone decides, we shouldn't follow the rules 100% strict in one situation and not that strict in other situations. And once a Waymarking police is established, I will be gone, because I started Waymarking to have fun.

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On several occasions I have taken photos or determined coords for someone who was in my area and didn't have everything they needed for the waymark. I was happy to help. In another instance I learned that a waymarker had a family connection and offered them the waymark. I didn't have a problem with  them using my photos or coords.

Edited by Max and 99
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I just found another Don Morfe MOH waymark and the coords were perfect!

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A little off-topic, but I just have to let everybody know that I found a MOH grave in Montenegro with the help of Don Morfe. A few days before we started our tour across the Balkans I asked Don, if he had any information about MOH graves in Europe, especially the Balkans. He sent me Information about a MOH recipient who was buried near Kotor, Montenegro in 1918. There was a record on findagrave, but no photos of the grave. I checked the coordinates (42.3956460,18.6811770), but Google Streetview just shows an old unused chapel surrounded by ruin walls. No cemetery or anything. Don also sent me all the Information he had and I started some research too. After a while I found an online article in the local language and it turned out that US soldiers had visited the grave in 2018. There were photos of the event too, showing the grave and a chapel in the background. In the text there was the name of the village and after some more research I finally found the right spot. And fortunately, Kotor was on our route. Instead of attending the guided city tour we took a taxi to the cemetery and as it is quite a small cemetery we found the grave very soon. I took photos from every side and of course I also took the coordinates and drove back to Kotor with the same taxidriver that was patiently waiting for us, while we took the photos. The taxi cost me more than 20 Euros to get there, but this was definitely a once-in-a-lifetime chance for me to find a MOH grave and I was so happy that I gave the driver 30 Euros. He was happy, I was happy and Don was happy too. So, next thing is. Chose the best photos, post them on findagrave and post a MOH waymark. This was by far the best Waymarking moment of the entire tour. [can't stop dancing] :cool:

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1 hour ago, PISA-caching said:

A little off-topic, but I just have to let everybody know that I found a MOH grave in Montenegro with the help of Don Morfe. A few days before we started our tour across the Balkans I asked Don, if he had any information about MOH graves in Europe, especially the Balkans. He sent me Information about a MOH recipient who was buried near Kotor, Montenegro in 1918. There was a record on findagrave, but no photos of the grave. I checked the coordinates (42.3956460,18.6811770), but Google Streetview just shows an old unused chapel surrounded by ruin walls. No cemetery or anything. Don also sent me all the Information he had and I started some research too. After a while I found an online article in the local language and it turned out that US soldiers had visited the grave in 2018. There were photos of the event too, showing the grave and a chapel in the background. In the text there was the name of the village and after some more research I finally found the right spot. And fortunately, Kotor was on our route. Instead of attending the guided city tour we took a taxi to the cemetery and as it is quite a small cemetery we found the grave very soon. I took photos from every side and of course I also took the coordinates and drove back to Kotor with the same taxidriver that was patiently waiting for us, while we took the photos. The taxi cost me more than 20 Euros to get there, but this was definitely a once-in-a-lifetime chance for me to find a MOH grave and I was so happy that I gave the driver 30 Euros. He was happy, I was happy and Don was happy too. So, next thing is. Chose the best photos, post them on findagrave and post a MOH waymark. This was by far the best Waymarking moment of the entire tour. [can't stop dancing] :cool:

Wow! I'd be dancing too!

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1 hour ago, PISA-caching said:

A little off-topic, but I just have to let everybody know that I found a MOH grave in Montenegro with the help of Don Morfe. A few days before we started our tour across the Balkans I asked Don, if he had any information about MOH graves in Europe, especially the Balkans. He sent me Information about a MOH recipient who was buried near Kotor, Montenegro in 1918. There was a record on findagrave, but no photos of the grave. I checked the coordinates (42.3956460,18.6811770), but Google Streetview just shows an old unused chapel surrounded by ruin walls. No cemetery or anything. Don also sent me all the Information he had and I started some research too. After a while I found an online article in the local language and it turned out that US soldiers had visited the grave in 2018. There were photos of the event too, showing the grave and a chapel in the background. In the text there was the name of the village and after some more research I finally found the right spot. And fortunately, Kotor was on our route. Instead of attending the guided city tour we took a taxi to the cemetery and as it is quite a small cemetery we found the grave very soon. I took photos from every side and of course I also took the coordinates and drove back to Kotor with the same taxidriver that was patiently waiting for us, while we took the photos. The taxi cost me more than 20 Euros to get there, but this was definitely a once-in-a-lifetime chance for me to find a MOH grave and I was so happy that I gave the driver 30 Euros. He was happy, I was happy and Don was happy too. So, next thing is. Chose the best photos, post them on findagrave and post a MOH waymark. This was by far the best Waymarking moment of the entire tour. [can't stop dancing] :cool:

 

:drama:

 

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2 hours ago, PISA-caching said:

A little off-topic, but I just have to let everybody know that I found a MOH grave in Montenegro with the help of Don Morfe. A few days before we started our tour across the Balkans I asked Don, if he had any information about MOH graves in Europe, especially the Balkans. He sent me Information about a MOH recipient who was buried near Kotor, Montenegro in 1918. There was a record on findagrave, but no photos of the grave. I checked the coordinates (42.3956460,18.6811770), but Google Streetview just shows an old unused chapel surrounded by ruin walls. No cemetery or anything. Don also sent me all the Information he had and I started some research too. After a while I found an online article in the local language and it turned out that US soldiers had visited the grave in 2018. There were photos of the event too, showing the grave and a chapel in the background. In the text there was the name of the village and after some more research I finally found the right spot. And fortunately, Kotor was on our route. Instead of attending the guided city tour we took a taxi to the cemetery and as it is quite a small cemetery we found the grave very soon. I took photos from every side and of course I also took the coordinates and drove back to Kotor with the same taxidriver that was patiently waiting for us, while we took the photos. The taxi cost me more than 20 Euros to get there, but this was definitely a once-in-a-lifetime chance for me to find a MOH grave and I was so happy that I gave the driver 30 Euros. He was happy, I was happy and Don was happy too. So, next thing is. Chose the best photos, post them on findagrave and post a MOH waymark. This was by far the best Waymarking moment of the entire tour. [can't stop dancing] :cool:

 

Good to see something positive coming out of this discussion. And, it's good to see a couple of waymarkers working together.  Kudos to Don Morfe, and congrats to you!

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I was going create a post regarding my surprise and disappointment at discovering a number of waymarks approved the past couple of months in the Medal of Honor Resting Places were done with photos taken by miscellaneous people and NOT the submitter, and then I came across this post.

 

As an officer of the MOH category who hasn't been very active in the community until recently, I find this practice of submitting and approving waymarks using others' photos to be EXTREMELY disconcerting and I recalled a term that was brought up a couple of years ago in satirical conversations: 'Armchair Waymarking'.  It's a practice that I DEFINITELY DO NOT promote nor approve of in categories I lead or officer of and I strongly feel was NOT the original vision of the creators of the community many years ago. 

 

As a forum admin, BruceS always pointed out that mentioning specific user names was a no-no in discussion (if it was negative in tone) so I will continue to honor his intent and just say that I went back and re-evaluated and declined any and all approved waymarks in question in the MOH category. The positive side to this is that the submitter at least mentioned photo credits to those individuals, which made sifting through the legitimate and not-so-legitimate approvals much easier. I also messaged Wayfrog and have requested that he remove BruceS as leader and appoint me (or someone else) as leader. I feel enough time has passed since Bruce's passing that we officers can move on and move forward with taking over categories that he led, bringing in new officers if needed. 

 

NW_history_buff

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So uncategorized MOH waymarks will not be accepted?

Make sure that gets added to the description when you take over so everyone is aware. 

I'm very disappointed at the turn this has taken.

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9 minutes ago, Max and 99 said:

So uncategorized MOH waymarks will not be accepted?

Make sure that gets added to the description when you take over so everyone is aware. 

I'm very disappointed at the turn this has taken.

I never said uncategorized waymarks wouldn't be accepted. The alternative to an 'authentic, visited in person' waymark is to create an assisted waymark. I mentioned this option to the submitter in question with the following message:

Comment: I'm sorry but I have a real problem with submitting waymarks into this category (or any other category for that matter) using photos taken by someone else and claiming credit for that site as if you visited it in person. In the spirit of the hobby, the aim and intention of the administrators when creating the Waymarking community was to have the waymarker actually visit the site in person, document it with photos, create a write-up and then submit. With that said, there is an alternative method of creating an 'assisted' waymark that uses another individual as a two-person way of documenting a site. Another individual creates an Uncategorized Waymark with photos, makes it public, and then you can claim that waymark by categorizing it (such as selecting in into Medal of Honor Resting Places), thus taken partial credit along with the other individual who actually took the photos. This method works in situations like yours where someone has discovered an interesting site but doesn't have the time to visit it in person. By finding another individual to take the photos on your behalf, you both get half credit. The main challenge is to get the other individual to log into Waymarking.com, create an account and submitting an Uncategorized Waymark. Easier said than done. Until this method is taken, I cannot in good faith allow this or prior approved Waymarks to be accepted in this caetgory. If you still have questions, contact me and I can provide further guidance. I will also be re-evaluating and denying all previously approved waymarks that slipped through the cracks. ~NW_history_buff

 

I personally feel the assisted waymark route is the only legitimate way to approve the MOH submissions and keep the practice 'kosher' within the community. If the majority of the Waymarking community promotes approving submissions containing photos NOT by the submitter, (in essence, 'armchair Waymarking') please let me know and I'll retire from the hobby/activity because that would be a movement I do not want to be a part of.

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In my humble opinion this was not a good idea. There are situations, where exceptions of otherwise valid rules make sense. I create waymarks, so that others (including people outside the Waymarking community) can find them. And those people don't care about who made the photos of my waymark. They are happy to see the photos and read the text. That's it. So, if there is a waymarker who invests a lot of time to find the resting place of a MOH recipient, but isn't able to go there to take the photo and if there is no other waymarker close to that location, I think it is better to have a waymark with photos from somebody else, than to have no waymark at all.

 

And: I would ask to avoid the term "armchair Waymarking" on that matter. I know that Don spent a huge lot of time to find as many MOH resting places as possible and just because he isn't able to go there and push the button of a camera, doesn't mean that his waymarks are worthless. Instead of destroying the work he has done, I would have respected his efforts and allowed these rare exceptions.

 

Finally: I would like to know, if there are any written rules who prohibit the use of photos of others or if this is up to the leaders/officers of every category. Because, if there will be waymarks posted in categories that I lead, I would probably approve them, IF there is no general rules against such a decision.

 

Edited by PISA-caching
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I would like to add a story that might be a good example of a situation, where (IMHO) exceptions make sense. Don.Morfe told me about a MOH recipient's grave in Stockholm, Sweden. He spent quite some time to find out where the man was buried. Unfortunately, I won't be visiting Sweden very soon, so I sent a note to a geocacher, who owns a geocache very close to that cemetery. Fortunately, he was willing to help. He sent the photos and coordinates to Don and allowed him to use them. Don uploaded them on findagrave.com, but either he didn't try to create that waymark or it was declined. Now, what has to be done to create that waymark? Don (or I) would have to ask the geocacher (who is not at all interested in Waymarking, as he has never visited or posted any waymarks), to create an uncategorized waymark and upload the photos. Really? Isn't that a little more than the geocacher will understand? Or maybe we should try to find a waymarker in Stockholm who is also willing to go to that grave again, take photos and take coordinates and search the MOH database for some facts and create a waymark? But, this waymarker will either need a lot of time to find out, which of the many MOH recipients was buried in his hometown or he will depend on the help of Don, who has done all the research already. What I'm trying to say is: This category is somehow special. If you walk across a cemetery, you might find a centennarian grave or an occupational/hobby grave etc., but you might miss a MOH grave, simply because the tombstone doesn't say that the person received the MOH. And the MOH database has no Information about where the people were buried. So, it takes research to find these sites and you will hardly find one by coincidence. Without the help of Don I would never have found the only MOH waymark I created. So, what is the difference between photos comming from somebody else versus the Information comming from somebody else? As long as the photos aren't stolen, they should be ok - especially in difficult categories like the MOH category.

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In my opinion, this is the kind of category that requires special efforts by special individuals.  Those special efforts are way beyond armchair Waymarking.

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You know, I'm done.  I followed the category description as it was in place when I approved those waymarks. .  Since y'all feel that I am not capable of approving waymarks - I will be giving up the officership of 58 categories. You all can figure out how to replace me.  

 

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This should not have happened.

 

It would be nice if some kind of forum intervention could take place before something like this happens again. 

Edited by elyob

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5 hours ago, iconions said:

You know, I'm done.  I followed the category description as it was in place when I approved those waymarks. .  Since y'all feel that I am not capable of approving waymarks - I will be giving up the officership of 58 categories. You all can figure out how to replace me.  

 

 

Who is "y'all"? I'm not included I guess. We should all keep calm and think how we could find a way to keep this hobby going, without loosing anybody (not Don.Morfe, not iconions and not NW_history_buff) on the way. We're all adults and should be able to find a good compromise.

 

Edited by PISA-caching
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Don read the forums, but wasn't able to submit a reply, so he asked me to forward the following:

 

"From Don Morfe Oct 24 2019

NW_history_buff has just deleted over 50 of my waymark postings of Medal of Honor grave sites. He overrode the approval of Tom Onion (an officer of waymark) who first suggested that I make the postings after disclosing that it was someone else’s photo.

So be aware that if a waymark officer makes a statement it can be overridden by someone else even after you have spent hundreds of hours on that project.
Apparently a waymark officer’s word is not Gold
."

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