Who’s FTF on a virtual?

[+barefootguru]

Having just published a new virtual (yay!)…

 

The logging requirement for this cache is taking a photo (GC8924H Virtually Wellywood).  Is there a consensus of who gets to claim FTF for this type of virtual — the first photo taken, or the first log received (with photo)?

 

A photo makes more sense to me, as the person was at GZ, but the timestamp is poor proof… so I’m leaning towards the first valid log entry.

[+Mudfrog]

First person to actually make it to ground zero and meet the requirements of course.

 

Just like with traditional caches, the person that actually makes it to ground zero and signs the log is the first person to find the cache. Doesn't matter if he logs online a week after the next person comes along, he's still the first to find..

[+arisoft]

8 minutes ago, Mudfrog said:

First person to actually make it to ground zero and meet the requirements of course.

 

How the first person knows that he is the first one?

 

I know one local geocacher who posts only a picture of the empty logbook without signing it to let others to have the FTF.

[+DerDiedler]

To paroof da winning of da FTF-dinging, they shall post a log photorino with a daily newspaperino an a clock towerissimo in da backgrrrrrrround, ai!

[+me N u]

38 minutes ago, Mudfrog said:

First person to actually make it to ground zero and meet the requirements of course.

 

Just like with traditional caches, the person that actually makes it to ground zero and signs the log is the first person to find the cache. Doesn't matter if he logs online a week after the next person comes along, he's still the first to find..

 

25 minutes ago, arisoft said:

 

How the first person knows that he is the first one?

 

I know one local geocacher who posts only a picture of the empty logbook without signing it to let others to have the FTF.

 

Curious as to why there would be a logbook for a VIRTUAL cache (our bold in the quoted replies).

[+HHL]

As Virtual caches are virtual (sic!), the side game FTF is without any useful use here. It should be ignored to Virtuals.

 

Hans

[+frostengel]

2 hours ago, barefootguru said:

The logging requirement for this cache is taking a photo (GC8924H Virtually Wellywood).  Is there a consensus of who gets to claim FTF for this type of virtual — the first photo taken, or the first log received (with photo)?

 

Logging online is only add-on so this can't be deciding who is "FTF" or not: not with "normal" caches, not with virtuals. (So with traditional caches for example it is clear: you sign the logbook before me, I write my online log before you, I am not FTF as I did not find it first).

 

I agree with HHL as "finding" is a little questionable with virtual caches.

If you want to have a "FT do anything" then I agree with Mudfrog: " First person to actually make it to ground zero and meet the requirements of course."

 

But I do not see any problem in this case. Some geocachers "argue" about FTFs and in this case no one seems to do so - so as long as no one claims to be the FTF and the other one wants to be FTF himself, there is no problem, is there?

And what they do for their private statistics in this side game doesn't matter - they can count each find as FTF if they want to. That does not hurt others as long as they allow them to log FTF, too. ;-)

[+hzoi]

After a dustup on one of our earthcaches between two cachers who were arguing about FTF, I have gotten out of the business of recognizing it on any of our caches.

 

I read of a cache owner who was trying to put additional requirements into a virtual reward for how someone could prove they were FTF.  It was deemed an impermissible ALR and dropped.

 

These days it should be pretty easy for someone to show up, snap a photo, and log it on the spot with a phone and claim FTF.  If they feel the need to include some sort of time stamp, so much the better for them.

[+arisoft]

4 hours ago, me N u said:

Curious as to why there would be a logbook for a VIRTUAL cache (our bold in the quoted replies). 

 

Logbook or not - how do you know that you are the first? It is first to FIND, not first to SIGN.

[+The Jester]

3 hours ago, hzoi said:

These days it should be pretty easy for someone to show up, snap a photo, and log it on the spot with a phone and claim FTF.  If they feel the need to include some sort of time stamp, so much the better for them.

If they have a phone they can log with, if they have service at the cache - not everyone does or wants to...

[+K13]

As the CO of a new Virtual, the FTF can be awarded to whomever you choose. If a conflict arises between your finders, just award the FTF to me. They can then get upset for losing the competition to someone from across the globe.   Seriously though, just deem those who found it on the same day as co-FTF. There's nothing official about FTF anyway, so all can win the non-existent prize.

[+cerberus1]

Since there are no "rules" for the FTF side-game anyway, my thinking is sorta along HHL's,  easier to not think about "FTF" on a virtual or earthcache.

No log to sign...

It gets silly enough sometimes on regular caches with logs that are signed.  

[+The A-Team]

5 hours ago, frostengel said:

And what they do for their private statistics in this side game doesn't matter - they can count each find as FTF if they want to.

^This

 

As the CO, it really doesn't matter to you who is FTF. That's a completely unofficial side game between finders, and each person can decide on their own if they consider themselves the FTF. If you're wanting to figure it out in order to put a congratulatory note on the cache listing, simply don't and the problem is resolved.

 

On the matter of FTF on Virtuals, I managed to snag one just last week. There was no ambiguity, so I'm confident in claiming it as a FTF. If someone else later decides that they have a claim, they're free to do so, but the FTF would remain as-is in my stats.

[+barefootguru]

Thanks guys!  Have gone with:

 

Quote

Congrats bruzie on being first to meet the logging requirements

 

[+frostengel]

2 hours ago, arisoft said:

Logbook or not - how do you know that you are the first? It is first to FIND, not first to SIGN.

 

For some geocachers (especially in the forums it seems to me) that's the same: no signature = no find (not for me). I remember having discussions about that. So there are no problems here for them: first to FIND = first to SIGN. ;-)

 

But again: I found the cache first but forget my pen. Then I ask the owner if I may log the cache (let's say by proving my finding the cache by a photograph) and make the "first to find without signing the logbook" - and call it "first to find" as I found it first (of course there might be someone else before me with the same problem :-D).

If the second finder signs the logbook and complains about me not having found = signed the cache and therefore the FTF is his, what's the matter? He should just log FTF, too, "first to find by signing the logbook".

And I don't care if the third one logs "first to find without trousers" or what elsen.

In fact the fourth one can log FTF in any case: "fourth to find".

 

I see no problem at all. If I think I have the FTF I log it - and it will enter my personal statistics. But I am afraid nothing will grow bigger by that. ;-)

 

[+The A-Team]

41 minutes ago, frostengel said:

But again: I found the cache first but forget my pen. Then I ask the owner if I may log the cache (let's say by proving my finding the cache by a photograph) and make the "first to find without signing the logbook" - and call it "first to find" as I found it first (of course there might be someone else before me with the same problem :-D).

If the second finder signs the logbook and complains about me not having found = signed the cache and therefore the FTF is his, what's the matter? He should just log FTF, too, "first to find by signing the logbook".

And I don't care if the third one logs "first to find without trousers" or what elsen.

In fact the fourth one can log FTF in any case: "fourth to find".

 

I see no problem at all. If I think I have the FTF I log it - and it will enter my personal statistics. But I am afraid nothing will grow bigger by that. ;-)

 

We used to have a local cache where everyone was FTF.

Everyone is a Winner

It demonstrated in a tongue-in-cheek manner that anyone can claim to be FTF.

[+frostengel]

1 hour ago, barefootguru said:

Congrats bruzie on being first to meet the logging requirements

 

But now I am curious: WHY?

 

On "bruzie"'s picture it is dark.

On "huhugrub"'s picture it is still light.

 

So it seems as if huhugrub took the picture - the only log requirement - first.

(And if you consider the online log - bruzie hasn't written a log as "More to come" is not a log.)

 

If you had just said nothing it would habe been perfect. But your note is obviously wrong, I'd say. Order proof by daylight. ;-)

 

So again: WHY have you decided to write a note in the first case, and if so: why this one?

[+dprovan]

The first person to go there after publication and satisfy FTF is the requirement is the first to find. You don't have to worry about proof: if it's not obvious, just ask the people posting the competing possibilities when they were there and let them tell you who was there first. Don't worry about the possibility of one of them lying. It's not worth the effort.

[+funkymunkyzone]

Let the finders work it out for themselves

 

For me, personally, the way I look at FTFs on caches with no logbooks, it's the first person to satisfy the requirements.  For an earthcache this means the first email with all the answers sent to the CO.  For a virtual, let's say if the virtual requirement is to upload a photo with their log, then it's the first person to log with a photo as that's meeting the requirements.

 

But yeah, since the FTF side game has no rules, it's really up to each individual to work out how they want to judge it for themselves.  nothing stops anyone from putting [FTF] in their log aside from perhaps looking a bit foolish if they are silly about it.

 

Cache on!

[+colleda]

Using the photo upload as a requirement puts GPS cachers at a disadvantage if they take a snap with a camera and log it later at home.

As someone said, leave it up to the finders and CO stays out of it.

[+barefootjeff]

28 minutes ago, funkymunkyzone said:

For me, personally, the way I look at FTFs on caches with no logbooks, it's the first person to satisfy the requirements.  For an earthcache this means the first email with all the answers sent to the CO.  For a virtual, let's say if the virtual requirement is to upload a photo with their log, then it's the first person to log with a photo as that's meeting the requirements.

 

Yeah, that sounds reasonable. In any case it's probably best for any dispute between FTF claimants to be resolved between themselves in whatever way they see fit, without the CO becoming involved.

 

[+funkymunkyzone]

5 minutes ago, barefootjeff said:

 

Yeah, that sounds reasonable. In any case it's probably best for any dispute between FTF claimants to be resolved between themselves in whatever way they see fit, without the CO becoming involved.

 

 

Precisely.  If two finders both think they are FTF, byt their own standards or definition of what that means, so be it - they both include [FTF] in their logs, they both feel proud, and the world keeps spinning without so much as the slightest pause.

[+niraD]

21 minutes ago, barefootjeff said:

 

Yeah, that sounds reasonable. In any case it's probably best for any dispute between FTF claimants to be resolved between themselves in whatever way they see fit, without the CO becoming involved.

 

[+barefootguru]

1 hour ago, frostengel said:

 

But now I am curious: WHY?

 

On "bruzie"'s picture it is dark.

On "huhugrub"'s picture it is still light.

 

So it seems as if huhugrub took the picture - the only log requirement - first.

(And if you consider the online log - bruzie hasn't written a log as "More to come" is not a log.)

 

If you had just said nothing it would habe been perfect. But your note is obviously wrong, I'd say. Order proof by daylight. ;-)

 

So again: WHY have you decided to write a note in the first case, and if so: why this one?

 

The requirement to claim the virtual is a log with a photo, bruzie was the first to provide that.  Even a 3 word log is still a log.

[+MNTA]

Having achieved a FTF of a virtual. I based it upon first to log the cache yes we had cell service. So if you are way out in the wilderness maybe take a picture of your watch. Funny I was 1/4 to log that day but I failed to log the time and was more asking a question did I get it? No one countered and my log stood. 

 

 

[+frostengel]

9 hours ago, barefootguru said:

The requirement to claim the virtual is a log with a photo, bruzie was the first to provide that.  Even a 3 word log is still a log.

 

Thank you for the answer. :-)

 

Has anyone read the edited log by the announced FTF?

"While I was not the first to visit, I'll accept the CO's determination that I was the first to fulfil the logging requirements."

He accepts getting the first prize though he was not first - that's cute. :-)

 

As long as huhugrub is okay with it... everything is fine.

 

The most funny thing is: huhugrub has the FTF tag in his log and bruzie hasn't. So the statistic tools will award huhugrub one more FTF and bruzie not. ;-)

[+dprovan]

15 hours ago, barefootguru said:

The requirement to claim the virtual is a log with a photo, bruzie was the first to provide that.

I claim the requirement is to take a photo, and posting it in the log is merely the proof that you did that.

 

And while I find that that's the most logical way to look at it, even if I thought there was a reasonable argument for the idea that whoever posted first wins, I'd still be against it just because I think the FTF race should be about the cache, not about the how efficient someone is in filing a log. In particular, I don't like the idea that in any close race, it rules out anyone that doesn't log in the field from getting the FTF. That doesn't seem fair to me.

[+GeoElmo6000]

I used to write "Congratulations to <FTF cacher> for FTF!" on each of my cache descriptions, but at some point I stopped and no one has complained.    

[+NYPaddleCacher]

22 minutes ago, GeoElmo6000 said:

I used to write "Congratulations to <FTF cacher> for FTF!" on each of my cache descriptions, but at some point I stopped and no one has complained.    

 

I've never added a congratulations to the FTF for any of mine hides.  I've seen the drama involved with the FTF side game and try to stay as far away from it as I can.  

[+dprovan]

1 hour ago, GeoElmo6000 said:

I used to write "Congratulations to <FTF cacher> for FTF!" on each of my cache descriptions, but at some point I stopped and no one has complained.    

It's OK to me if a CO congratulations the FTF, but I've always found it a little silly because too often the CO acts as if he gets to say who's FTF.

[+NYPaddleCacher]

9 minutes ago, dprovan said:

It's OK to me if a CO congratulations the FTF, but I've always found it a little silly because too often the CO acts as if he gets to say who's FTF.

 

Agreed. Some cache owners think they can award FTF and some geocachers will try to claim  FTF.   First to Find is simply a fact.   There is no central authority which keeps track of who was first to find on a cache.  Anyone interesting in keeping track of caches for which they were first to find can do so in any manner they wish.   If more than one geocachers chooses to "claim" FTF on the same cache there is nothing that anyone can do about it.  

 

[+colleda]

6 hours ago, GeoElmo6000 said:

I used to write "Congratulations to <FTF cacher> for FTF!" on each of my cache descriptions, but at some point I stopped and no one has complained.    

Same here.

[+cerberus1]

8 hours ago, GeoElmo6000 said:

I used to write "Congratulations to <FTF cacher> for FTF!" on each of my cache descriptions, but at some point I stopped and no one has complained.    

 

We'd see this as well, but we always wondered how many "FTFers" ever went back to the cache page to notice.  

The rare time I do is when looking for parking or something on a new one out close by.

 

Most my FTF now are simply because few walk more than a couple hundred feet from parking these days.

On the last, got an email laughing about one,  knowing I'm not big on the silly stuff.

Went back to find a lot of animation, with a floating banner in multiple colors, glitter and snowflake canyons ... probably the only thing it was missing was dancing hamsters.  

Guess it meant something to the CO, but if I didn't get ribbed for it, all that "stuff" wouldn't have been noticed.

 

[+4wheeler]

I used to care about FTF but found that it is meaningless.  Since every finder is a FTF in some way.  FTF on a Tuesday,  FTF by a left handed, red headed person, FTF at 2:15PM today.  I could not careless who is the FTF, all I care about is actually finding it and enjoying the search.