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Kelux

Grant Souvenirs for DNFs also...

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A simple suggestion that may stir some controversy, but for me makes sense...
Even if it is common to see some fake Founds, would anyone ever faked a DNF?


After I saw a recent log of Found It, where the user wrote: "DNF the actual cache. Looks like it is missing. But I did touch the information board."; I started to think about the main reason for this... maybe this cache would be the only one in a foreigner country for him, so the user just want to acchieve the Souvenir?!


Certainly most of the fake Founds and Throwdowns I saw were related to this, especially here in Brazil.

Maybe if HQ started to grant the Souvenirs for DNFs also, we would see less fake Founds?!

After all, not all of the DNFs are "fault" of whon searched for the cache, in the location. Some (many) are fault of owners with poor maintenance plans.

 

I would be for a change like this.

 

Let me dress my kevlar jacket now... :)

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10 minutes ago, Kelux said:

A simple suggestion that may stir some controversy, but for me makes sense...
Even if it is common to see some fake Founds, would anyone ever faked a DNF?


After I saw a recent log of Found It, where the user wrote: "DNF the actual cache. Looks like it is missing. But I did touch the information board."; I started to think about the main reason for this... maybe this cache would be the only one in a foreigner country for him, so the user just want to acchieve the Souvenir?!


Certainly most of the fake Founds and Throwdowns I saw were related to this, especially here in Brazil.

Maybe if HQ started to grant the Souvenirs for DNFs also, we would see less fake Founds?!

After all, not all of the DNFs are "fault" of whon searched for the cache, in the location. Some (many) are fault of owners with poor maintenance plans.

 

I would be for a change like this.

 

Let me dress my kevlar jacket now... :)

Is your Kevlar jacket on? 

OK.

 

I would think that someone trying to get a souvenir for another country would not rely on just one cache to find, but would have a backup plan in case of a DNF.

 

That wasn't so bad, was it?

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18 minutes ago, Kelux said:

A simple suggestion that may stir some controversy, but for me makes sense...
Even if it is common to see some fake Founds, would anyone ever faked a DNF?


After I saw a recent log of Found It, where the user wrote: "DNF the actual cache. Looks like it is missing. But I did touch the information board."; I started to think about the main reason for this... maybe this cache would be the only one in a foreigner country for him, so the user just want to acchieve the Souvenir?! 

 

If someone really wants a souvenir from a country without visiting the country they can just post a found it log on any cache in the country then delete the found it log.  The souvenir will remain in their profile.

 

 

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5 minutes ago, NYPaddleCacher said:

 

If someone really wants a souvenir from a country without visiting the country they can just post a found it log on any cache in the country then delete the found it log.  The souvenir will remain in their profile.

 

 

Unfortunately.

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1 hour ago, Kelux said:

A simple suggestion that may stir some controversy, but for me makes sense...
Even if it is common to see some fake Founds, would anyone ever faked a DNF?

After I saw a recent log of Found It, where the user wrote: "DNF the actual cache. Looks like it is missing. But I did touch the information board."; I started to think about the main reason for this... maybe this cache would be the only one in a foreigner country for him, so the user just want to acchieve the Souvenir?!

Certainly most of the fake Founds and Throwdowns I saw were related to this, especially here in Brazil.

Maybe if HQ started to grant the Souvenirs for DNFs also, we would see less fake Founds?!

After all, not all of the DNFs are "fault" of whon searched for the cache, in the location. Some (many) are fault of owners with poor maintenance plans.

I would be for a change like this.

Let me dress my kevlar jacket now... :)

 

So you're saying that people go to Brazil to fake finds ?    :laughing:

We see people fake finds, and fake trackable Discovers all the time ... so why not fake a DNF ?     Maybe there's a stat for that.    :D

I'd think if DNFs  were "rewarded", someone would figure a way to bilk the system.  Why ?  Who knows...

 

This sorta reminds me of  "participation" trophy  ("everyone gets a trophy!")  thinking, where we don't want to hurt other's wittle feelings.   :)

When out of that phony world though, they  become overly disappointed when they fail.   Sometimes you lose...

A CO could visit their caches and delete those fake Found Its once in a while.  That's just part of maintenance.    

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1 hour ago, Max and 99 said:

I would think that someone trying to get a souvenir for another country would not rely on just one cache to find, but would have a backup plan in case of a DNF.

 

 

No souvenirs for counties, but I looked for two in a county and didn't find either one of them.  So I get this.  Just because you didn't find a cache in a given area doesn't mean that you didn't "go geocaching" there.

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1 hour ago, Max and 99 said:

Is your Kevlar jacket on? 

OK.

 

I would think that someone trying to get a souvenir for another country would not rely on just one cache to find, but would have a backup plan in case of a DNF.

 

That wasn't so bad, was it?

Except when that cache results in a DNF also - we had that happen on a cruise that stopped at Jamaica.  So we've cached in Jamaica, but were unsuccessful and now are bummed also because we don't know when we may be back to try again.

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7 minutes ago, The Jester said:

Except when that cache results in a DNF also - we had that happen on a cruise that stopped at Jamaica.  So we've cached in Jamaica, but were unsuccessful and now are bummed also because we don't know when we may be back to try again.

 

Earth caches might be a safer bet - at least as backup - in that situation ... if there are any near the port and don't require a dissertation to log.  :)

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OP: Not much incentive left to improve technique if DNFs are rewarded.  (Though I have to admit that I've read some really great DNF logs - and not saying that facetiously.)

 

37 minutes ago, cerberus1 said:

This sorta reminds me of  "participation" trophy

 

That was the first thing that came to my mind, too.

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5 minutes ago, VAVAPAM said:

 

Earth caches might be a safer bet - at least as backup - in that situation ... if there are any near the port and don't require a dissertation to log.  :)

That would be nice, but there were only two caches in a reasonable distance from the dock.

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Just now, The Jester said:

That would be nice, but there were only two caches in a reasonable distance from the dock.

:mad:  Bummer!  Hire a donkey?  j/k

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This may just be my backwards way of thinking, but I figure DNFs *are* important; however, the reward is in the find after DNF-ing.

Always satisfaction in getting a tough find, but that feeling when finding one that eluded you before?  Suweeet!

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2 minutes ago, VAVAPAM said:

:mad:  Bummer!

Agree!

 

As an interesting note:  I have the Mexico souvi, but earned it the day after I DNF'd two caches in Mexico (the actual day I logged them?).  I did find a number of caches a couple of days later during a different trip in country.

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The first year I was geocaching, there was a souvenir for International Geocaching Day.  I didn't know beforehand that there was a souvenir for that day, as I was pretty new to the hobby, but I went geocaching that day and DNF'd both caches I tried to find.  When I found out about the souvenir, I messaged GCHQ about getting a souvenir for that day,  because I did go geocaching, I just didn't find any geocaches.  They said no, that I needed to find a cache, that day, which I was fine with.

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Some here have argued that the cache search begins with viewing the cache page & hitting Go To on the App, so if I adopt that view, I can collect souvenirs for all countries by looking at the cache page on the App and logging a DNF.  That will certainly not be the desired outcome of the OP idea, but for those who like souvenirs, it would be a justifiable way of getting them all.

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If there was a reward for faking a DNF you can bet there are those who would do it. 

 

After all I can file DNF's on every cache in existence that I have not found.   Because I didn't look for the cache I didn't find it.  

 

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34 minutes ago, VAVAPAM said:

This may just be my backwards way of thinking, but I figure DNFs *are* important; however, the reward is in the find after DNF-ing.

Always satisfaction in getting a tough find, but that feeling when finding one that eluded you before?  Suweeet!

Nothing backwards at all DNF's are very important!  They let the CO know that there may be a problem.  A string of DNF's alert the reviewer that there may be a problem.

 

Finding a cache that you DNFed is a great feeling and often earns a Favorite Point.  

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3 hours ago, Kelux said:

After all, not all of the DNFs are "fault" of whon searched for the cache, in the location. Some (many) are fault of owners with poor maintenance plans.

 

1 hour ago, K13 said:

Some here have argued that the cache search begins with viewing the cache page & hitting Go To on the App, so if I adopt that view, I can collect souvenirs for all countries by looking at the cache page on the App and logging a DNF.  That will certainly not be the desired outcome of the OP idea, but for those who like souvenirs, it would be a justifiable way of getting them all.

 

The issue - as demonstrated by K13 - is that there are a wide variety of reasons for logging a DNF, many of which really don't make sense as far as "getting a souvenir for participation". If DNFs resulted in a souvenir being awarded, it could occur in all of the following cases:

  • Seeker starts going to GZ, but runs out of time and abandons the attempt
  • Seeker goes to GZ, but container is damaged and log is unsignable
  • Seeker goes to GZ, but container is missing
  • Seeker tries to get to a cache up a tree, but can't climb the tree
  • Seeker tries to get to GZ, but is prevented by a river 100 feet from the cache
  • Seeker tries to get to GZ, but the road is closed 5 miles from the cache
  • Seeker is passing through an airport and hits "Go" on their app for a cache 15 miles away
  • Seeker is sitting in their armchair at home and hits "Go" on their app from 1000 miles away
  • Seeker is sitting in their armchair and just feels like logging a DNF from 5000 miles away

There's no way to differentiate between these cases, so all would get a souvenir. Sorry, that just doesn't make sense to me. Find the cache, and then you can get the souvenir. If someone is willing to bogus-log a cache to get a souvenir, I don't see any reason why this change would stop them from doing so. All it would do is give them an additional log type under which they could bogus-log.

Edited by The A-Team
typo
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I plan on touching down in a new state soon. I know it's not the same as a new country, but I will have a Plan B, Plan C, and Plan D in place.

I did once try for one cache in a new state, and after 2 hours of searching I logged a DNF.  I learned my lesson! No other close by caches, either. 

 

And no, I should not get a souvenir for that state. 

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7 hours ago, The A-Team said:

 

 

The issue - as demonstrated by K13 - is that there are a wide variety of reasons for logging a DNF, many of which really don't make sense as far as "getting a souvenir for participation". If DNFs resulted in a souvenir being awarded, it could occur in all of the following cases:

  • Seeker starts going to GZ, but runs out of time and abandons the attempt
  • Seeker goes to GZ, but container is damaged and log is unsignable
  • Seeker goes to GZ, but container is missing
  • Seeker tries to get to a cache up a tree, but can't climb the tree
  • Seeker tries to get to GZ, but is prevented by a river 100 feet from the cache
  • Seeker tries to get to GZ, but the road is closed 5 miles from the cache
  • Seeker is passing through an airport and hits "Go" on their app for a cache 15 miles away
  • Seeker is sitting in their armchair at home and hits "Go" on their app from 1000 miles away
  • Seeker is sitting in their armchair and just feels like logging a DNF from 5000 miles away

There's no way to differentiate between these cases, so all would get a souvenir. Sorry, that just doesn't make sense to me. Find the cache, and then you can get the souvenir. If someone is willing to bogus-log a cache to get a souvenir, I don't see any reason why this change would stop them from doing so. All it would do is give them an additional log type under which they could bogus-log.

 

 

Honestly why does it matter if someone cheats. How does it harm anyone but themselves. Does anyone review my stats and say hey that cache I say I found in Iowa was bogus and I should not have received that souvineer? I seriously hope not, so what's the difference between a false DNF vs any other type. I for one would love a stat for DNFs definitely have my share of them, but for me stats and souvineers are a personal thing for my enjoyment. Though that Iowa one was a LPC in a mall parking lot the road trip was much better than the cache. I digress.... Cheating happens and will happen we all play the GAME our own way and stats and souvineers I'd enjoy, those blue frowny faces taunt me on my map when too close to home drives me crazy. 

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10 hours ago, Max and 99 said:

I would think that someone trying to get a souvenir for another country would not rely on just one cache to find, but would have a backup plan in case of a DNF.

Unless it's the only cache. I visited Suva in Fiji. There was only one cache in the whole of Suva. I made sure I got it. However, if I hadn't been able to find it, although being VERY, VERY disappointed, I would have logged a DNF.

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55 minutes ago, Goldenwattle said:

Unless it's the only cache. I visited Suva in Fiji. There was only one cache in the whole of Suva. I made sure I got it. However, if I hadn't been able to find it, although being VERY, VERY disappointed, I would have logged a DNF.

I would have been VERY disappointed too!

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2 hours ago, MNTA said:

Honestly why does it matter if someone cheats. How does it harm anyone but themselves. Does anyone review my stats and say hey that cache I say I found in Iowa was bogus and I should not have received that souvineer? I seriously hope not, so what's the difference between a false DNF vs any other type.

Who said anything about someone cheating, or about a "false DNF".

 

The A-Team's post discussed "a wide variety of reasons for logging a DNF, many of which really  don't make sense as far as 'getting a souvenir for participation'".

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Ahhhhhhh, DNF ... Early on I was hesitant, even reluctant, to log a DNF because I viewed it as a failure and couldn't bear the thought of publicly admitting I was a loser.  Somewhere along the line I stopped playing that old tape and a number of similar tapes related to a less than ideal childhood.

 

I now embrace my DNF's and log them in a similar fashion to my "Found It Logs".  >>>> which doubtless irritate some, however, I blame my logging style on a cache owner in Upstate / Western New York.  

 

Go Forth My Fellow Caching Jedi And EMBRACE WITH PRIDE your "Purple Frownies"

 

Remember ... just because you missed it ... DO NOT ASSERT THAT IT IS MISSING.

 

 

Edited by humboldt flier
typo correction
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15 minutes ago, humboldt flier said:

I now embrace my DNF's and log them in a similar fashion to my "Found It Logs".  >>>> which doubtless irritate some, however, I blame my logging style on a cache owner in Upstate / Western New York.  

 

Similar to humboldt flier I guess, after seeing multiple footprints and "stuff" moved in an area, I'll log a DNF with an addition similar to a find ...just without that TNLNSL part.     :)

I'll also mention "There's one heck-of-a-lot of footprints here.  Guess a few people haven't logged in yet..." sorta thing,  just because some know who those "I have a reputation to uphold..." folks are.

 - Their "reputation" simply  they're too arrogant to log a DNF.  :D

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On 7/3/2019 at 2:38 PM, NanCycle said:

 

 

No souvenirs for counties, but I looked for two in a county and didn't find either one of them.  So I get this.  Just because you didn't find a cache in a given area doesn't mean that you didn't "go geocaching" there.

 

I DNFd the only cache I attempted in Canada.   I was just  outside the hotel I was staying in during an overnight layover.  My flight was delayed about 3 hours (from Iceland) so I didn't get to the hotel until 9:00PM or so and I had a 7AM flight the next morning.  If the cache was actually there it was most likely a bison in one of several pine trees.  I spent 15-20 minutes searching for it before I gave up.  I supposed I still went geocaching in Canada but there isn't a list anywhere of places where we've geocached, and the stats page only counts places where a Found It, Attended, or Webcam photo taken log has been posted.  

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On 7/4/2019 at 10:53 AM, cerberus1 said:

I'll also mention "There's one heck-of-a-lot of footprints here.  Guess a few people haven't logged in yet..." sorta thing,

 

Agree!  I do the same when I've been to caches that it's obvious searches have been made but no DNFs have been logged.  If nothing else, it helps the next cacher know there are more DNFs than meet the eye.

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As to the OP:  I'm not sure I've had enough DNFs to qualify for anything.  Unless we turn that into a percentage, maybe.  THEN, I might be cookin' with gas! (eligible)

Edited by VAVAPAM
USA Deep South colloquialism clarified

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7 hours ago, NYPaddleCacher said:

... and the stats page only counts places where a Found It, Attended, or Webcam photo taken log has been posted.  

 

Many Events abroad are held on the Owner's hotel or any nearby bar... why the owner should be elegible to a Souvenir in an Event of his own, while if he went to search for any other cache, thus experiencing the location, even if that search fail, wouldn't? Maybe the Souvenir could be granted under a rule such... "Place a photo of the hideout surroundings, proving you were there", by instance. There are a lot of nuances on this, of course.

 

I just want to thank you all for your comments and for provide "food for thought" on this little social experiment.

You are the BEST!

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53 minutes ago, Kelux said:

Many Events abroad are held on the Owner's hotel or any nearby bar... why the owner should be elegible to a Souvenir in an Event of his own, while if he went to search for any other cache, thus experiencing the location, even if that search fail, wouldn't? Maybe the Souvenir could be granted under a rule such... "Place a photo of the hideout surroundings, proving you were there", by instance. There are a lot of nuances on this, of course.

 

 

 

Let me see if I understand what you just posted.  Are you asking: If an Event owner gets a Souvenir [because he attended and therefore "found" the cache], why shouldn't he get a Souvenir as a Cache owner ... though he is not allowed to log a "found" on that cache?  Since he's able to claim an Attended (find), why can't he claim a find on his cache? 

 

I'm sorry. I just want to be sure what you're saying.

 

Edited by VAVAPAM
1accuracy? 2could punctuation help?

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OK, I think I understand what you asked:  Why can't somebody call a cache "found", simply because he was there, because simply being there is enough to log Event caches. 

Is that what you meant?  If so, I'll bite, and just go with the black and white, not the "nuances".

 

BECAUSE it is NOT an Event cache.  Different type caches have different set-ups, purposes, and logging requirements.  Even Earth and Virtual caches require more than just showing up at the coordinates and "experiencing" it.  If the experience is all you're after, by all means do that ... just don't expect to get a smiley [or souvenir] if you don't follow the logging requirements.

 

 

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10 minutes ago, VAVAPAM said:

OK, I think I understand what you asked

 

The way I read it, @Kelux is asking who deserves a country souvenir more: the person sitting in his hotel bar hoping that somebody turns up to his event, or the person that ventures out to ‘experience the location’ but fails to find the cache?

 

I can understand the argument, but souvenirs for DNFs?  Not going to happen.

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23 minutes ago, IceColdUK said:

The way I read it,

 

Thanks - that makes sense.

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45 minutes ago, IceColdUK said:

... who deserves a country souvenir more: the person sitting in his hotel bar hoping that somebody turns up to his event, or the person that ventures out to ‘experience the location’ but fails to find the cache?

 

Thank you! You summarize it perfectly.

 

PS: Although I keep on pressing on the difference between a DNF on the searcher's "fault" and a DNF because of a missing cache.

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6 minutes ago, Kelux said:

PS: Although I keep on pressing on the difference between a DNF on the searcher's "fault" and a DNF because of a missing cache.

For the purposes of "deserving a souvenir", does it matter whether the DNF is because the cache was missing or for some other reason?

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23 hours ago, Kelux said:

Maybe the Souvenir could be granted under a rule such... "Place a photo of the hideout surroundings, proving you were there", by instance.

 

1 hour ago, Kelux said:

PS: Although I keep on pressing on the difference between a DNF on the searcher's "fault" and a DNF because of a missing cache.

 

The thing to remember is that any solution needs to be able to run automatically.

 

In the case of allowing a photo, it would require some kind of designated "DNF reviewer" to check the DNF photos and validate whether they're legitimate, or require the CO to perform this task. I don't see either of these happening.

 

In the case of the reason for the DNF, there would need to be a complex system whereby the CO of a cache could indicate whether the cache was missing or not and over what period of time, and then the souvenir could be retroactively awarded to those who DNFed when the cache was missing. Of course, this assumes that the CO can determine when the cache went missing, and assumes that the CO actually performs the necessary actions.

 

Currently, there are no "degrees of DNF" recorded on the website. All DNFs are created equal in the eyes of the software, so it would either be "all DNFs get the souvenir" or "no DNFs get the souvenir". To get beyond that, things get far more complex, costs go up, development time increases, etc., all to award a participation trophy.

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Perhaps all Geocachers can have the DNF souvenir awarded the minute they sign up. It's inevitable that they're not going to find one sooner or later. 😉 And no one will then feel they have missed out and wont have to game the system to get one.

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On ‎7‎/‎3‎/‎2019 at 1:21 PM, NYPaddleCacher said:

If someone really wants a souvenir from a country without visiting the country they can just post a found it log on any cache in the country then delete the found it log.  The souvenir will remain in their profile.

just curious how did you discover this? not saying you did it just curious  

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32 minutes ago, Wet_Ground said:

just curious how did you discover this? not saying you did it just curious  

This has been a complaint since early in the history of Souvenirs. They are awarded automatically, and they are not un-awarded automatically. It doesn't matter what kind of Souvenir it is.

 

If the user contacts Groundspeak, then Souvenirs can be un-awarded by hand. But people who collect bogus Souvenirs are unlikely to make such a request.

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8 hours ago, colleda said:

Perhaps all Geocachers can have the DNF souvenir awarded the minute they sign up.

This isn't about there being a souvenir for having a DNF, it's about getting the same souvenir(s) when you DNF any cache as you would get if you logged a find on that same cache.

 

 

7 hours ago, Wet_Ground said:

just curious how did you discover this? not saying you did it just curious  

This has been common knowledge for years.

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2 hours ago, MartyBartfast said:

This isn't about there being a souvenir for having a DNF, it's about getting the same souvenir(s) when you DNF any cache as you would get if you logged a find on that same cache.

 

Got it.

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I have a trackable coin that travels with me that I've marked as visiting geocaches that I have logged as DNF.  I also marked it as visiting caches I own when doing maintenance.  I do that just to keep a personal record of approximate miles traveled, since I was at the location the not-found cache was supposed to be located.  I don't earn any souvenirs for marking the trackable as visited.  It's just for my personal reference.  

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Bethie_Biker and I are a bit disabled, and also still mainly use our GPSR to cache, so perhaps we plan a bit better - we use the Logs for a cache to try and see if there are DNF's, what the Terrain and Difficulty are (if stages are missing from a multi), we use Google Satellite Map view to see if there are physical boundaries that will be impassable for us. We also started doing State County Challenges a couple of years ago so that makes us more aware of things, too - where the cache IS specifically. But if we don't try for a cache, we don't log a DNF - we didn't try. And if we didn't find the cache, we don;t expect a reward: We Didn't Find The Cache. For whatever reason - doesn't matter. I don't log miles against my trackables for DNF's, either (No Find - No Reward).

 

We also carry Repair Items to do simple repairs to a cache - logs, tape, paper towels, etc.. Why be unable to log due to a wet/full log? Carry some to put in.Leave the cache better than you found it.

 

Souvenirs for DNF's? If so - WHY PLACE HIDES??? Just DNF away until your fingers are too tired- or, better yet, create a DNF Bot to do the work. Tell HQ to charge Membership by the DNF LOL! We could easily get Events to Tera Attendance Levels by allowing attendance by DNF!!

 

You can't make people not cheat. All you can do is be a decent person and enjoy the rewards of that - and Geocaching. The thrill of the hunt - the find - socializing with other cachers - placing a good hide. All First Person, Right Now - not digital or DNF 😁.

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14 hours ago, Kelux said:

 

Thank you! You summarize it perfectly.

 

PS: Although I keep on pressing on the difference between a DNF on the searcher's "fault" and a DNF because of a missing cache.

 

For some there is no difference.  They assume if they can't find the cache it is because it is missing, and will either throw down a replacement or just log it as found because "they would have found it if it was there".  

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11 hours ago, Wet_Ground said:
On 7/3/2019 at 1:21 PM, NYPaddleCacher said:

If someone really wants a souvenir from a country without visiting the country they can just post a found it log on any cache in the country then delete the found it log.  The souvenir will remain in their profile.

just curious how did you discover this? not saying you did it just curious

 

I don't recall when I first heard about this loophole but it was fairly commonly known in the forums a short time after regional souvenirs started to get released.   Somebody may have discovered it by accident after inadvertently logging a find on the wrong cache (by fumble fingering a GC code).  All the country/region based souvenirs and finds on my profile page are legit.  

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So.  Could the OP create a Challenge Cache, the challenge being "log this many DNFs"... post a list?

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Just now, VAVAPAM said:

So.  Could the OP create a Challenge Cache, the challenge being "log this many DNFs"... post a list?

No, because challenges based on DNF's are expressly not allowed under the guidelines for challenge caches.

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1 minute ago, Keystone said:

No, because challenges based on DNF's are expressly not allowed under the guidelines for challenge caches.

 

Ah.  Sorry, OP.  (Thanks, Keystone.)

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1 hour ago, VAVAPAM said:

So.  Could the OP create a Challenge Cache, the challenge being "log this many DNFs"... post a list?

then wouldn't people start logging finds as DNFs to get to the "amount" of DNFs required for the challenge, and I think it would make honest loggers not look as hard for a cache!

I have 92 find and only 16 DNFs  half of witch I think are gone (based of pervious logs) the other 45% I think I just missed and 5% I'm not sure what to think. 

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6 hours ago, MartyBartfast said:

This isn't about there being a souvenir for having a DNF, it's about getting the same souvenir(s) when you DNF a missing cache as you would get if you logged a find on that same cache.

 

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