How many people ACTUALLY get permission before hiding a cache?

[+Stakmaster]

I'm in the process of hiding my first Geocache on an island I've wanted to hide a cache on for years, and I've recently discovered it's actually owned by the New York State Electric and Gas company (NYSEG). I've written an email to them explaining Geocaching and that I'd like to hide a cache on their property, but honestly what incentive do they have in letting me do so? There's a tire swing and camp fire rings all over the island despite it clearly saying "no camping" several places so it's obvious they probably don't want people there to begin with, and it got me thinking how much easier it would be to just hide it on the island without informing them. Obviously I wouldn't do that because it's against the rules, but I also doubt that anyone from NYSEG would ever find out about this Geocache unless they themselves are Geocachers, in which case would they really care? 

 

I was just writing that email asking for permission and thinking "Over 3 million Geocaches, how many of those on private property actually got permission from the land owners, and how many just placed it where they wanted?" Have you seen Geocaches get archived when uninformed land owners found out there was a Geocache on their property? Do Geocachers who do this get in trouble with Groundspeak? Like I said, I wouldn't do it because it's against the rules and I would hate to get found out and give Geocaching a bad reputation, but I can't deny the allure of just placing it where I want and hoping no one from NYSEG finds out about it. Have you ever been tempted to do this, or maybe have done it?

Edited April 19, 2019 by Stakmaster

[+arisoft]

1 hour ago, Stakmaster said:

I was just writing that email asking for permission

 

Let me guess.Your primary problem is that no one answer to your email?

 

1 hour ago, Stakmaster said:

Have you seen Geocaches get archived when uninformed land owners found out there was a Geocache on their property? Do Geocachers who do this get in trouble with Groundspeak?

 

I have seen this kind of things happening. It is true that there are geocaches without permission from the land owner. Cache will be archived when the land owner contact the HQ.

 

1 hour ago, Stakmaster said:

Over 3 million Geocaches, how many of those on private property actually got permission from the land owners

 

More than 10% at least.

[+Stakmaster]

1 minute ago, arisoft said:

 

Let me guess.Your primary problem is that no one answer to your email?

 

 

I just sent the email half an hour ago so no, that's not my primary problem. I was just thinking as I wrote it what are the odds that all the people that placed caches on private property actually went through the effort to do what I am doing. Thinking back to all the caches placed in parking lots, on lamp posts, and on utility boxes I would say the number is very few.

[+arisoft]

15 minutes ago, Stakmaster said:

Thinking back to all the caches placed in parking lots, on lamp posts, and on utility boxes I would say the number is very few.

 

I can't deny. Sometimes it is obvious that no one would give permission for a cache I just found. For example no electric company would give permission to use utility boxes, transformers or any of their property for a geocache but still I can find them.

 

I know that if the CO describes the cache correctly, reviewers usually wouldn't publish it to such a place. A highly experienced geocacher placed a geocache to a transformer and when I commented about the hide in my found it log she didn't even understand that it is not allowed until verified the situation from the reviewer.

 

Different coutries have different practices.For example, here in Finland we are legally allowed to place geocaches into woods without permission and the land owner has right to remove the cache without permission.

Edited April 19, 2019 by arisoft

[+niraD]

Some of the parks systems and open space districts around here have official geocaching policies. As long as caches comply with their requirements, they have permission. The owner doesn't need to contact anyone to get permission.

 

My experience with the people in charge of private property has been pretty positive. They've been happy to host a cache. But I've known them personally, so that helps.

 

With public property, it may help to ask whether they have a geocaching policy. And if they don't, then my next step would be to ask who can give permission for something like this. Don't ask for permission until you're talking to the right person.

[+Isonzo Karst]

I think people get explicit permission for caches in small business parking lots more than you might think. In large commercial lots, rarely.

 

When i started caching, my parents owned a small strip mall - it had a cache in parking lot, cache had, "placed with permission" on the listing. I asked my Dad about it, he'd never heard of it. He asked the management company that dealt with the mall rentals and upkeep, they'd never heard of it. The permission was likely from a vendor, renting one the shops, long gone. That said, it was fine by the actual property owner ?

 

 I've placed  one private property cache without permission (grocery store parking lot, dang that was a long time ago) and 3 others with explicit permission (western wear store -> wonderful wooden Indian carving on the porch, hospital exercise trail, and museum  grounds).   My hides are on public lands, and all of them meet permit or permission requirements (one land manager's requirement is "place caches freely", gotta love it).

 

Edited April 19, 2019 by Isonzo Karst

[+Stakmaster]

48 minutes ago, niraD said:

With public property, it may help to ask whether they have a geocaching policy. And if they don't, then my next step would be to ask who can give permission for something like this. Don't ask for permission until you're talking to the right person.

That's a good idea. I guess one of my fears would be that I get denied based on a blanket "Nothing left on our property" type policy not necessarily having anything to do with Geocaching. I mentioned in my email that I would be checking on it regularly and maintaining it, so hopefully that helps if that's one of their concerns. Am I imagining this or doesn't Groundspeak have an official letter you can print and use to ask property owners about Geocaches, explaining everything about them and what it's about? I swear I saw that one time, some sort of generalized request letter made by Groundspeak to save you the effort of explaining Geocaching to landowners in the most respectful and informational way possible. 

[+Touchstone]

4 hours ago, Stakmaster said:

That's a good idea. I guess one of my fears would be that I get denied based on a blanket "Nothing left on our property" type policy not necessarily having anything to do with Geocaching. I mentioned in my email that I would be checking on it regularly and maintaining it, so hopefully that helps if that's one of their concerns. Am I imagining this or doesn't Groundspeak have an official letter you can print and use to ask property owners about Geocaches, explaining everything about them and what it's about? I swear I saw that one time, some sort of generalized request letter made by Groundspeak to save you the effort of explaining Geocaching to landowners in the most respectful and informational way possible. 

I’ve never heard of such a letter originating from HQ, but a search on the Forum might produce some letters shared by other Users. Another good resource is the Regional Policy Wiki:

 

https://wiki.Groundspeak.com/display/GEO/Home

[+CachedIronSkillet]

I don't have many caches, but I've ALWAYS asked permission.  I've been turned down a lot, but that's OK, there are more places... I make gadgets and I want my cache to be safe, so I look for businesses that will understand that while I'm not making a commercial cache, they're likely to gain customers because geocachers appreciate the fact that they gave permission.  I can't tell you how many thank you comments I've gotten from the ice cream shop, or the pizza place, or the winery that I have gadgets at.  Also, fish and game related clubs have always given me permission - something about their charter to give back to the community, I think.

[+cerberus1]

Your post sounds (to me) like you're tempted to place anyway ("a tire swing and camp fire rings all over...", "I don't think anyone would find out..."),  and just looking for support.  Adding reasoning  like "Thinking back to all the caches placed in parking lots, on lamp posts, and on utility boxes I would say the number is very few" sorta shows that too.  

 

In answer to your thread title, "How many people ACTUALLY get permission before hiding a cache?", we've asked for permission on every cache we've placed.

Some took us months of attending township/borough/park meetings before they "had time for us" and we got approved

 - On others we caught a park manager when they had nothing else going on and were kinda trapped.   

We've been turned down just as many times, and most are because of people placing caches on their properties without permission.

We've also been asked to leave, when others thought that because we had a cache on a property, the area was fair game.

It's embarrassing, having to apologize because a member ruined a simple hobby in yet-another spot...

 

Maybe some don't intend to stay long in this hobby, and figure it's "not a big deal" to lie to the Reviewer. 

Just check a box that you got adequate permission...

 - But it may be someday if someone gets hurt, or has trespass troubles,   since they listed that we're allowed to be there.

[+rapotek]

Sometimes, especially when it is not clear if the property is public or private, even digging up information about who is the property owner can take time and money not to mention contacting with the owner and get permission. It may be safer to stick to areas having geocaching policies or general permissions announced by local reviewers for example.

[+Michaelcycle]

7 hours ago, rapotek said:

Sometimes, especially when it is not clear if the property is public or private, even digging up information about who is the property owner can take time and money not to mention contacting with the owner and get permission. It may be safer to stick to areas having geocaching policies or general permissions announced by local reviewers for example.

I cannot speak to the situation in Poland (lovely country, reminds me I am delinquent in reporting to the "collecting countries" thread) but finding the name of the property owner has become easier in the many parts of the USA due to the existence of online searchable tax maps. For the OP's location, for example, there is this resource:

http://oncorng.co.ontario.ny.us/Html5Viewer/Index.html?configBase=http://oncorng.co.ontario.ny.us/Geocortex/Essentials/REST/sites/oncor_light/viewers/OnCOR_Light/virtualdirectory/Resources/Config/Default

[+rapotek]

55 minutes ago, Michaelcycle said:

I cannot speak to the situation in Poland (lovely country, reminds me I am delinquent in reporting to the "collecting countries" thread) but finding the name of the property owner has become easier in the many parts of the USA due to the existence of online searchable tax maps. For the OP's location, for example, there is this resource:

http://oncorng.co.ontario.ny.us/Html5Viewer/Index.html?configBase=http://oncorng.co.ontario.ny.us/Geocortex/Essentials/REST/sites/oncor_light/viewers/OnCOR_Light/virtualdirectory/Resources/Config/Default

I do not know how this tax map works, but there is a tool in Poland looking similar: http://mapy.geoportal.gov.pl/imap/ There you can find borders of land lot with its number. There exists web pages where you using land lot you can find land and mortgage register number with land owners but you have to pay for it. Official way to obtain documents needs to prove legitimate interest, at least it was so few years ago. And there is no guarantee the property owner contact data is up to date.

 

Anyway there was a forest road not far from me a few years ago. It was a kind of 300 metres shortcut between two other roads but frequently used. It turned out that it was in the middle of private property parcelled out from public forest long ago and suddenly there appeared a fence crossing the road. Now there is a house where the road had begun. There was no cache there but if there was any, placed on basis of policy used for public country forests, it would be lost now.

[+TheLimeCat]

I'm sure the people out there who neglect to obtain permission for their caches are not rushing to admit this fact in the public geocaching forums. 

[+Mudfrog]

On ‎4‎/‎19‎/‎2019 at 10:56 AM, arisoft said:

More than 10% at least.

 

Myself,, I'd imagine less than 10%. 

 

Most cache placements get away with it but that's because the property owner doesn't know or ends up finding out and doesn't care enough to do anything about it. I've had encounters with irate owners wanting me and the cache removed from their property, owners who told me they were wondering why people were doing walking around on their property, and some that have told me they didn't give permission but were ok with the cache being there.

 

Because of liability reasons, I doubt very many parking lot owners would give permission.

[+JL_HSTRE]

If the utility company wanted nobody on the island then they would have No Trespassing signs rather than No Camping. 

 

If lots of people illegally camp on the island it's probably a party spot and odds are above average your cache will get muggled.

 

As for permission on private property: with parking lot hides I suspect rarely. For other private property I suspect quite often. The vast majority of caches are on public land - parks, preserves, road right-of-way.

[+cerberus1]

I think it's a shame that properties need to be "posted",  just so people know they can't trespass. 

Just walk onto another's property if there's no sign to keep you out ?   You don't own it, why can't you ask ?  

We had trespass in social studies in school, but it should be common sense...

We've had a few people try to place hides on our roadside properties. 

All didn't understand that the road "right-of-way" is only for utility/road crews, and doesn't mean it's "open to the public".

[+HunterandSamuel]

I hide caches only in my home town because permission was given by the town manager.  I don't have to keep asking. In my log to the reviewer I give her name and phone number.  She (the town manager) was thankful that I asked because years ago they thought a cache was a bomb and called in the bomb quad! The reason why you probably won't hear from them is because of liability issues. We emailed a private parking lot owned by a local business to hide a cache. They didn't return our email so we called them. The assistant said they won't give written permission but gave permission over the phone to hide a cache in their parking lot and that the reviewer can call them if he wanted. So I gave their name and phone number to the reviewer. 

[+NYPaddleCacher]

On 4/24/2019 at 8:08 AM, JL_HSTRE said:

As for permission on private property: with parking lot hides I suspect rarely.

 

Obtaining permission may satisfy a reviewer but does not ensure that there won't be issues with the container.   Most parking lot hides are in privately owned parking lots (unless it's a city owned lot) but has public use.   Explicit permission obtained might involved one store or some management office that might not even be on site.   There many be many retail stores, each with many employees and their patrons that use the parking lot, as well site security, and local law enforcement that will have no idea that a cache was placed there with explicit permission.   All it takes is one concerned citizen stopping by the Panera for a cup of soup to think that person poking around the lamp post is suspicious and calls 911.   Then local law enforcement arrives, lifts up a lamp post skirt and sees an object that "could be a bomb" and the incident escalates further, and the next thing you know the cache owner is being interviewed by the local newspaper.    

[+niraD]

4 hours ago, HunterSamuel said:

The assistant said they won't give written permission but gave permission over the phone to hide a cache in their parking lot and that the reviewer can call them if he wanted.

That's more than I got from one parks department manager. He basically said we could hide things, but the parks department didn't want to know about it and wouldn't take any responsibility for anything that went missing.

[+JL_HSTRE]

On 4/24/2019 at 2:45 PM, cerberus1 said:

Just walk onto another's property if there's no sign to keep you out ?   You don't own it, why can't you ask ?  

We had trespass in social studies in school, but it should be common sense...

 

 

One thing that complicates matters is geocaching is an international game. Europe apparently has very different ideas about property and trespassing than the USA.

[+MNTA]

My opinion is that it has more to do with liability then trespassing. If you get hurt on my property doing an activity insurance companies and lawyers tend to get involved depending on the severity of the problem.

 

Though I have had on two occasions fairly angry homeowners approach me for caching from public spaces adjacent to their property. One the coordinates were WAY off and the cache was no where near by. Another the homeowner believed the trail adjacent to their property was theirs and the county forced them to allow people access which was not the case. Both caches were eventually archived. No sense in fighting an unwinable fight.

 

One of my daughters favorite climbing caches was archived near our house. We scoped the area out retrieving three old cache containers from throw downs and the archived cache. Placed our cache and the reviewer wanted permission for taking two steps up in an awesome easy climbing tree. Needless to say unfortunately the rental company did not want the liability so we had to make it reachable from the ground. The funny thing is on one of my maintenance runs I saw two kids climbing in the same tree and having a blast. Oh well.

 

 

[+hzoi]

4 hours ago, MNTA said:

My opinion is that it has more to do with liability then trespassing. If you get hurt on my property doing an activity insurance companies and lawyers tend to get involved depending on the severity of the problem.

 

 

It does.

 

*dusts off 1L torts classes in brain, checks basic hornbook to make sure remembering right*

 

Under US law, there are three basic classes of people who come on to your property when it comes to tort law and liability for injuries.

 

Trespasser - person on property owned by another without the owner's permission.  Landowner owes little if any duty to these folks, depending on the jurisdiction.  (Some jurisdictions have adopted the "attractive nuisance" doctrine to protect children, which is why swimming pool owners normally maintain locked fences.)

 

Licensee - person on property owned by another, not open to the general public, because the owner has allowed it.  (Think house guest.)  The owner has a duty of care to the licensee to warn of all known dangers and may be liable for injuries.

 

Invitee - person on property owned by another to do business with the landowner, or for a purpose for which the owner has made the land open to the public.  Not only does the owner have a duty to warn of danger, they also have a duty to inspect the land and make it safe for invitees, as well as a duty to rescue the invitee who "falls into peril."

 

Allowing a cache on private property arguably puts cachers at least in "licensee" status, if not "invitee," which raises the stakes for liability.

 

This liability issue is the reason railroads enforce trespass so strictly - trains don't stop on a dime, so railroads strive to avoid liability by trying to keep every warm body off the tracks.

[+stevnated]

On 4/19/2019 at 1:25 PM, Stakmaster said:

That's a good idea. I guess one of my fears would be that I get denied based on a blanket "Nothing left on our property" type policy not necessarily having anything to do with Geocaching. I mentioned in my email that I would be checking on it regularly and maintaining it, so hopefully that helps if that's one of their concerns. Am I imagining this or doesn't Groundspeak have an official letter you can print and use to ask property owners about Geocaches, explaining everything about them and what it's about? I swear I saw that one time, some sort of generalized request letter made by Groundspeak to save you the effort of explaining Geocaching to landowners in the most respectful and informational way possible. 

 

I m looking for this too. 

[+edexter]

I doubt anyone knows even the approximate percentage of caches placed with explicit permission but I would guess it's on the order of less than 25%.  I believe the great majority of caches are placed with implicit permission without any attempt to identify, contact or obtain permission from the landowner.  Implicit permission means that the cache is placed in an area that is "open to the public" or "along a public way" such that "nobody cares" if you are there.  The most common examples of this are P&Gs and LPC caches (curbside & parking lot caches) which these days make up 30-40% of all caches.  The next largest group are caches placed on public land owned by towns or states that are known to be "ok with caching" and that consider caching to be just another type of "passive receation" like hiking or biking and either encourage it or don't prohibit it.   On Cape Cod, for instance, a number of town recreational properties have caches placed by employees with the specific purpose of attracting folks to come visit.  The caches with explicit permission tend to be placed on private property, or quasi public land (conservation areas open to the public or their memebers) that have explicit geocaching policies, require a permit, allow caches "here, but not there", etc.  Groundspeak publishes some information about caching access but makes no effort to be systematic leaving it up to the individual cacher to jump through the hoops of obtaining permission.  Getting permission is a crap shoot.  For example I recently wanted to place a cache on a town property:  On one side of the access road was a town landing controlled by the town harbormaster.  On the other side,  a newly opened town conservation area.  I called the town hall and worked through their phone system until I eventually reached the person authorized to deal with the "can I place a cache here?" question.   The harbormaster said, "No, absolutely not" and gave the reason as "because I said so".  The conservation head said, "Yeah sure, thanks for letting us know.  You can put it anywhere you want that's reasonable..."   

I've had similar experiences while Benchmarking.  The great majority of benchmarks are on private property, some even in people's backyards.  I go up to the front door and knock and ask for permission to search for it and the responses range from "No, go away" to "Yeah, sure, let me show you where it is".  So you never know.  

It's worthwhile to keep in mind that there are a number of perfectly legal workarounds to being refused permission to place a cache in areas that allow passive recreation but forbid physical caches.  The simpliest way to to create a "virtual multi" where you direct folks along a route of your choosing where they need to gather information off of preexisting objects (signs, trail markers, kiosks, structures, etc) and then assemble the information into coordinates to the "final" which is in an area that allows physical caches.  

[+barefootjeff]

21 minutes ago, edexter said:

It's worthwhile to keep in mind that there are a number of perfectly legal workarounds to being refused permission to place a cache in areas that allow passive recreation but forbid physical caches.  The simpliest way to to create a "virtual multi" where you direct folks along a route of your choosing where they need to gather information off of preexisting objects (signs, trail markers, kiosks, structures, etc) and then assemble the information into coordinates to the "final" which is in an area that allows physical caches.

 

Yes, I've done that a lot. All the caches in my Chasing Waterfalls series are done that way as the waterfalls themselves are inside national parks, so there are questions to answer at at each of the falls with the physical cache further along the stream where it passes through public recreation land outside the NP.

 

I currently have two physical caches placed inside national parks (GC752YF and GC831AR), for which I obtained permission through their Geocaching Policy application process. I've had two others that I applied for rejected because of Aboriginal sites either close to GZ or along the way, and I'm currently trying to get past first base with another. I contacted the ranger in September about a location near the end of a power line service road but she had concerns about potential safety risks and had to raise it with her supervisor, but since then the supervisor's been on leave and and she's been sent up north to help with the fire-fighting that's been going on around Glen Innes pretty much all spring. Now yesterday I heard on the news that the state government is planning to lease out a hundred walking tracks in national parks to private eco-tour operators for their exclusive use, so that will no doubt throw another spanner in the works, especially if the Great North Walk (a 250km trek from Sydney to Newcastle which passes close to at least 60 caches) is in their sights.

[+HunterandSamuel]

I have a cute "getting permission" story to share. We wanted to do a simple light pole cache (a match stick cache we bought on geocache.com). The parking lot it was standing in was a quaint minimall. We asked one of the store owners who owned the parking lot and explained why. He knew about geocaching and was very helpful, gave us the name & number of the owner and also said he would talk to him. We called the owner, explained what geocaching was, and asked if we could leave a "cache" under his light post. It was fine with him and then asked us...who keeps the "cash" people leave behind. lol

[+RDrayerIII]

I have the feeling that several caches that I encounter were placed without explicit permission. The reviewers are fairly adamant about permission. Do these COs lie to them? 

[+kunarion]

3 hours ago, rdrayeriii said:

I have the feeling that several caches that I encounter were placed without explicit permission. The reviewers are fairly adamant about permission. Do these COs lie to them? 

 

On my caches with explicit permission, the person who grants permission has specific things for me to add to the cache page.  Contact info and stuff.  It's pretty easy to check on that, with a phone number and all. 

 

Is there an issue with the caches you've found?  Even with permission, not everyone who works under a land manager knows about any particular cache.  Plus a new land manager might have a new policy.

[+RDrayerIII]

1 hour ago, kunarion said:

 

On my caches with explicit permission, the person who grants permission has specific things for me to add to the cache page.  Contact info and stuff.  It's pretty easy to check on that, with a phone number and all. 

 

Is there an issue with the caches you've found?  Even with permission, not everyone who works under a land manager knows about any particular cache.  Plus a new land manager might have a new policy.

Recently, I found a geocache that required you crawl through a drain pipe under the road. I don’t know what government agency manages that particular road (my reviewer told me that all state roads are off limits by law in my state), but I highly doubt that the land manager would approve of that. I don’t care that much as long as private property is respected. It does get annoying that I have to work so hard to place one cache when some of the veteran cachers have got away with haphazardly placing caches all over the state. 

[Keystone]

South Carolina is rather unique in that the state government has expressly stated that caches aren't permitted in its highway rights-of-way, including guardrails.  Perhaps that doesn't cover drainage tunnels.  Or, perhaps that drain pipe cache was hidden years ago, before the current guidance followed by the reviewers in South Carolina.  I'm also aware of drain pipe caches placed with express permission.  So, don't be annoyed about your cache, or about prior caches that may seem "haphazard" for you.  Things change over time, and the publication of any one cache does not serve as precedent for the publication of any future cache.  That's right in the Geocache Hiding Guidelines.

[+RDrayerIII]

10 hours ago, Keystone said:

South Carolina is rather unique in that the state government has expressly stated that caches aren't permitted in its highway rights-of-way, including guardrails.  Perhaps that doesn't cover drainage tunnels.  Or, perhaps that drain pipe cache was hidden years ago, before the current guidance followed by the reviewers in South Carolina.  I'm also aware of drain pipe caches placed with express permission.  So, don't be annoyed about your cache, or about prior caches that may seem "haphazard" for you.  Things change over time, and the publication of any one cache does not serve as precedent for the publication of any future cache.  That's right in the Geocache Hiding Guidelines.

And I imagine that property lines or the marking of them can change. I say that because down several roads and major trails there are many caches placed beyond the blue markings or no trespassing signs. They possibility figured out who owns the adjacent properties and got permission, but it seems unlikely. 
 

Which brings me to another topic. Are land managers approving 20-30 caches being placed on their trails? It would seem like the request would bring a lot of reservations. Whereas, a few might seem more reasonable to the individual approving.

 

It is my personal belief that most caches are placed on the assumption that it will never become an issue and that there would be a lot less caches otherwise. Having said that, I have and will always seek permission.

[+Lynx Humble]

11 hours ago, rdrayeriii said:

Recently, I found a geocache that required you crawl through a drain pipe under the road. I don’t know what government agency manages that particular road (my reviewer told me that all state roads are off limits by law in my state), but I highly doubt that the land manager would approve of that. I don’t care that much as long as private property is respected. It does get annoying that I have to work so hard to place one cache when some of the veteran cachers have got away with haphazardly placing caches all over the state. 

I have found some geocaches in drain pipe without issues. Just don't go when it's raining or just after.

 

Some people put cache really high in trees just don't go and ignore them like me if you don't feel safe.

 

44 minutes ago, rdrayeriii said:

And I imagine that property lines or the marking of them can change. I say that because down several roads and major trails there are many caches placed beyond the blue markings or no trespassing signs. They possibility figured out who owns the adjacent properties and got permission, but it seems unlikely.

I would suggest to send a message to the cache owner that his/her caches are behind a no trespassing sign and he/she will answers you why. You should also put a write note on those page.

 

If you don't get answer from the CO in a few weeks I would suggest to put a Need Archive on those caches.

[+ras_oscar]

Back to the OP question. I suspect at large organizations it is difficult to determine whom has the authority to approve placement of a cache. If the property belongs to the utility company the request is most likely forwarded to a public affairs office where it would be denied by in-house council because there is risk without benefit to the organization.

[+HunterandSamuel]

15 hours ago, rdrayeriii said:

Recently, I found a geocache that required you crawl through a drain pipe under the road.

 

When did the hunt and fun of geocaching become so extreme?  Sure there are geocachers who prefer this but in my humble opinion...that's not what geocaching is about. 

[+HunterandSamuel]

My pet peeve are the diehard cachers insisting that parents are responsible for their children when geocaching because some caches are near railroads, etc.  That they "should know" when there is danger. Geocaching is for all people, including families and their children. 

[+The Jester]

4 minutes ago, HunterandSamuel said:

 

When did the hunt and fun of geocaching become so extreme?  Sure there are geocachers who prefer this but in my humble opinion...that's not what geocaching is about. 

I accept your opinion, but I think geocaching needs caches at the "extremes".  I see the extremes as pushing the envelope out so it doesn't become nothing but easy walks to easy finds.  Long hikes, rock climbing skills, SCUBA, tree climbing, and such keep the sport "alive".  Just remember, not all caches are for all people.  There are parts of this activity that I don't like (extreme puzzle caches are one, there are so many I can't even recognize what the puzzle is, much less solve it), but those aren't for me.  But I don't want them to go away, I just hope some people still make the easier ones at times.

[+The Jester]

10 minutes ago, HunterandSamuel said:

My pet peeve are the diehard cachers insisting that parents are responsible for their children when geocaching because some caches are near railroads, etc.  That they "should know" when there is danger. Geocaching is for all people, including families and their children. 

I know this isn't what you meant, but it almost sounds like you are promoting that parents shouldn't be responsible for their children?

[+TeamRabbitRun]

42 minutes ago, HunterandSamuel said:

 

When did the hunt and fun of geocaching become so extreme?  Sure there are geocachers who prefer this but in my humble opinion...that's not what geocaching is about. 

 

When? From the very beginning.

Don't want to play at that level? Don;t go after those caches.

[+niraD]

28 minutes ago, TeamRabbitRun said:

1 hour ago, HunterandSamuel said:

When did the hunt and fun of geocaching become so extreme?  Sure there are geocachers who prefer this but in my humble opinion...that's not what geocaching is about. 

 

When? From the very beginning.

Don't want to play at that level? Don;t go after those caches.

 

Yep. Challenging caches have been around since the beginning. Remember, geocaching started as an outdoor activity.

[+31BMSG]

1 hour ago, HunterandSamuel said:

Geocaching is for all people, including families and their children. 

Yes it can be "for all people, including families and their children" but I don't believe that was the original intent behind it, I doubt many caches were placed with children in mind until a phone became capable to cache with. Most of my caches were placed with responsible adults in mind, if you want to brings kids the adults are responsible for the kids. If you want a place turn kids loose and forget about them, move along to some other cache.

[+barefootjeff]

2 hours ago, HunterandSamuel said:

My pet peeve are the diehard cachers insisting that parents are responsible for their children when geocaching because some caches are near railroads, etc.  That they "should know" when there is danger. Geocaching is for all people, including families and their children. 

 

Many of my caches involve considerable rock-scrambling with high cliffs or waterfalls nearby. They are meant for adults, or at least kids who are old enough and experienced enough to be safe in that environment.

 

 

It would be a pretty dull game for someone like me if all caches were for families and their children.

 

 

[+thebruce0]

I had an old tree climb, maybe 8' up, not a difficult one in the grand scheme, one of my first placed, and I had a lady log a find who made no effort to reach it, complaining that every cache should be findable by everyone. 

[+NYPaddleCacher]

3 hours ago, HunterandSamuel said:

My pet peeve are the diehard cachers insisting that parents are responsible for their children when geocaching because some caches are near railroads, etc.  That they "should know" when there is danger. Geocaching is for all people, including families and their children. 

 

 

Doesn't that include people that might enjoy caches hidden in drain pipes under road? 

 

"Geocaching is for all people" isn't the same as All Geocaches are for all people.   What you're asking for is all caches to be family friendly. 

 

I don't expect that geocachers "know" when there is danger.   If I inform them that there may be danger, it's up to them whether the reward (finding the cache) is worth the risk.  

[+CAVinoGal]

5 hours ago, HunterandSamuel said:

Geocaching is for all people, including families and their children. 

 

1 hour ago, NYPaddleCacher said:

"Geocaching is for all people" isn't the same as All Geocaches are for all people.

 

"Geocaching is for all people" but not all geocaches have to be found by everyone.  There are terrain and difficulty ratings for a reason - and as others have stated, if you don't think a particular cache is a good fit for your family outing, then pass it up and seek one that IS.  We pass up many caches for various reasons.

 

And this thread is veering off topic, so I'll end with that.

[+hzoi]

20 hours ago, HunterandSamuel said:

Geocaching is for all people, including families and their children. 

 

The New York Times crossword puzzle is for all people, too.  But not everyone can finish the Sunday edition.

[+CAVinoGal]

22 hours ago, ras_oscar said:

Back to the OP question. I suspect at large organizations it is difficult to determine whom has the authority to approve placement of a cache. If the property belongs to the utility company the request is most likely forwarded to a public affairs office where it would be denied by in-house council because there is risk without benefit to the organization.

 

Back on track - I like to hide caches close to or at wineries in my area, forming a series with the descriptions highlighting various aspects of the winemaking industry.  I have three yet to place, because wineries have "issues" with geocachers coming onto their property (insurance, the "risk without benefit" mentioned above, etc.) and have denied me permission.  I'm looking for places where I either don't need permission, or where I can get in touch with the right people to make it happen.  Those that I have placed around have been accepted, wineries are good with them, sometimes they bring in some business, but that's not why they are there.  Those I have yet to place have catchy titles, and are gadget caches and need a specific kind of location to make it work effectively.  So I wait and keep looking....and seeking the proper permissions so I don't jeopardize geocaching in this area!!

[+RocTheCacheBox]

On 3/18/2020 at 2:07 PM, HunterandSamuel said:

When did the hunt and fun of geocaching become so extreme? 

Shortly after May 3rd, 2000

 

On 3/18/2020 at 2:12 PM, HunterandSamuel said:

My pet peeve are the diehard cachers insisting that parents are responsible for their children when geocaching.....

Parents are ALWAYS responsible for their childrens safety when they are with them.

[+edexter]

GIS and Tax Assesors Property Maps (which let you click on a property boundary and see who owns it) have made identifiying who owns a piece of property a lot easier.  In general, I am going to try to place a cache in an area that already allows public access, so being able to see what is town, state or federal agency controls the territory is a big help.  Now, finding out who can "authorize" permission is another story.   I generally make a phone call or send an email and ask if they have a geocaching policy and go from there.  I comply with the rules but still question them.  For instance:  My reasoning is that any public land that allows hunting in season is certainly a suitable area to walk around in and leave a small piece of plastic by, in or on a tree.  Certainly hunters don't report I am going to stand here, here and here, is that ok?   Getting advance  permission to place a cache in a specific location you've never visisted seems silly to me and the more reasonable land managers get this and instead generally use restrictions (you can't place it here:  and then list the areas that are no go) rather that have you submit a specific location "up front".    Management not micro management.   I typically ask is it ok to put a cache anywhere in this area and then say I will tell them the exact location once I go check out the area.  The more the land manage knows about geocaching the easier they are to deal with...

[+HunterandSamuel]

I'll say it again...Geocaching is for all people, including families and their children. The sport will die if we do not keep future generations interested. We also hold responsibility when it comes to the safety of children when deciding where to hide our caches.