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_Daemon_

Huh...I have to pay?

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58 minutes ago, allrounder said:

 

depends on the club...my club: $1160 for the year PLUS $15 per competition game...

HOWZAT!!

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5 hours ago, allrounder said:

 

depends on the club...my club: $1160 for the year PLUS $15 per competition game...

 

Yikes!

Geocaching prem, Project-gc prem (whenever on offer, for a few years each time), plus I paid for Cachly and GSAK right before it became free. Super cheap hobby. If it wasn't for all the international caching trips :laughing:

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So, 1 year GC =$30. This weekend: 2 nights in a hotel, 3 dinners for 2, a few stops for a drink + icecream. >300Km  driven. In August, 2 nights in a hotel, dinners + stops, @500Km driven. In July, 2 nights hotel + usual stuff, also @500Km driven.

Costs for the last 20 years of PM + GSAK licenses are less than just these 3 three day weekends for this year alone.

 

We could always stay closer to home to save costs, GSAK is now free, and out of 38000+ Belgian caches a little over 8300 are PM only (21.8%), out of 40000 caches in the Netherlands 12600 (31.6%) are PM. I'd say there's still enough to find for free, not counting the cost of a GPS/phone.

 

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Thanks for the

1 hour ago, on4bam said:

We could always stay closer to home to save costs, GSAK is now free, and out of 38000+ Belgian caches a little over 8300 are PM only (21.8%), out of 40000 caches in the Netherlands 12600 (31.6%) are PM. I'd say there's still enough to find for free, not counting the cost of a GPS/phone.

 

 

Thanks for the stats! I never realized that there are so many PO caches here. But I guess you don't see this easily if you're a premium member (and yes, I now have a custom filter for Project-gc I could use if I wanted to make a point again :laughing:)

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Extra statistic, my PM finds are at 24% (out of 10000+)

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2 hours ago, on4bam said:

We could always stay closer to home to save costs, GSAK is now free, and out of 38000+ Belgian caches a little over 8300 are PM only (21.8%), out of 40000 caches in the Netherlands 12600 (31.6%) are PM.

 

Worldwide is around 20%, but I guess this year these statistics may be a little inflated, because of the lack of events.

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1 minute ago, RuideAlmeida said:

 

Worldwide is around 20%, but I guess this year these statistics may be a little inflated, because of the lack of events.

The two databases I ran the filter on have all active non-found caches. Looks like Belgium has close to average PM %, the Netherlands rate higher . The fact that my PM % of finds is slightly above the Belgian % might be because of our selection criteria.

 

My database of archived (unfound) Belgian caches shows just 11.6% PM out of +53000

 

Bottom line, nobody HAS to pay for geocaching unless in their neighborhood there are very few caches and most are PM (unlikely).

 

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25 minutes ago, on4bam said:

The two databases I ran the filter on have all active non-found caches. Looks like Belgium has close to average PM %, the Netherlands rate higher . The fact that my PM % of finds is slightly above the Belgian % might be because of our selection criteria.

 

My database of archived (unfound) Belgian caches shows just 11.6% PM out of +53000

 

Bottom line, nobody HAS to pay for geocaching unless in their neighborhood there are very few caches and most are PM (unlikely).

 

 

My guess is that there's just so little actual nature in the Netherlands that people prefer to keep caches PMO here. And mentality *hides behind sofa*

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21 hours ago, igator210 said:

 

In the early days, when only a handful of caches existed, you could store them on a floppy disk and it took only one person to run it in their spare time.. Today over 3 million caches exist. This takes staff and servers and a building and a website and a lot more overhead. Yes, Groundspeak monetized the hobby and turned it into a business. If they hadn't, there is no way the hobby would be as big as it is today.

 

Why bother. There will always be a segment of the population that will want everything for nothing.That thirty bucks a year is tough to swing.. when you own a $1000 smartphone.

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I can very well understand that $30 is a lot of money for some but unless one only caches in their own neighborhood it's only a small fraction of what's needed. GPS or smartphone (2nd hand), transportation, data/internet would be more on a yearly basis. Of course, every little bit helps when money is tight.

 

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1 hour ago, on4bam said:

every little bit helps when money is tight

 

When money is tight, you make do with less.

 

80% of ~3 million caches ... is still a lot.

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1 hour ago, Viajero Perdido said:

 

When money is tight, you make do with less.

 

80% of ~3 million caches ... is still a lot.

When money is tight, 99.9% of the caches are out of reach :rolleyes:

 

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On 9/12/2020 at 1:29 PM, Fogtripper said:

There is no access to "premium caches" for non-paying members. You can see them listed, but they cannot be accessed beyond that.

So no, "access any cache" is not true.

 

Yes, monetized. You literally cannot access the "premium caches" beyond the list unless you pay. Yes, you can access all of the other ones for free, but only a fraction of the available caches.

 

And that fraction of free caches is over 70% in most areas. That's a LOT of free geocaches.

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How long since you guys have actually tried the basic member experience on the official app? Or downloading all your caches as individual gpx files to your gpsr I guess. 

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42 minutes ago, mustakorppi said:

How long since you guys have actually tried the basic member experience on the official app? Or downloading all your caches as individual gpx files to your gpsr I guess. 

 

Apps are not one-time-paid or even "free".  The new business model is subscription for Apps.  Some form of cash flow.  Without that, the App vanishes.

 

I used to send caches to my GPS for the coordinates and to a Palm PDA for cache descriptions.  Or I printed them out.  That's the free way to do it, and it remains very similar except that now the entire description gets downloaded instead of just a partial one.

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I find it funny that you chose to answer a very simple question with an explanation of freemium dynamics instead of years.

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9 minutes ago, mustakorppi said:

I find it funny that you chose to answer a very simple question with an explanation of freemium dynamics instead of years.

 

Zero years for the App.  I was a Basic member, loading free GPX files to my Garmin GPS for about 4 months.

 

Well, lately maybe a couple of hours here and there in either, to try things out when someone asks around here how to use the site or App.

 

Edited by kunarion

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2 hours ago, mustakorppi said:

How long since you guys have actually tried the basic member experience on the official app? Or downloading all your caches as individual gpx files to your gpsr I guess. 


what’s wrong with downloading single gpx? It sounds like the recent to wants to cache in a specific area. Why would you them need to download hundreds of caches?

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On 3/14/2019 at 6:34 PM, _Daemon_ said:

I have not geocached for years, so I am pretty out of the loop. I placed a cache years ago, and its been enjoyed by lots of people. I immigrated to another country a couple of years ago, so have not been maintaining the cache, going back to my home country where the cache is, and want to go maintain it, I installed the iOS geocaching app only to find out I now have to have a subscription and I cannot even view my own cache in the app?  

 

If you can't view your cache, you can still save its coordinates for ease of maintenance, for free in The Official App.  No need to pay for PM just to maintain a PM cache.

 

I wouldn't have expected that you can't view your owned caches, once you're not PM.  But if it's your cache, you know what the cache page says, and as mentioned, you can open many caches on the web site, even in a web browser on the phone.

 

 

Edited by kunarion

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10 minutes ago, terratin said:

what’s wrong with downloading single gpx? It sounds like the recent to wants to cache in a specific area. Why would you them need to download hundreds of caches?

I’m noticing a pattern here...

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59 minutes ago, mustakorppi said:

I’m noticing a pattern here...

 

The OP doesn't have to pay, nor experience things.  And the OP isn't loading GPX files, in The App.  It's just for one cache, for maintenance.  The App can definitely be used for free, to be guided to a cache or two for maintenance, PM or not.  I don't suggest using a phone for geocaching, but within the parameters of the OP, no paying is necessary.

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4 hours ago, mustakorppi said:

How long since you guys have actually tried the basic member experience on the official app? Or downloading all your caches as individual gpx files to your gpsr I guess. 

 

Like kunarion, I started off in 2013 downloading individual .loc files onto my Garmin and printing out the cache descriptions. I even decoded the hints by hand. I became a PM after about six weeks and eleven finds, mainly so I could get the full details onto the GPSr. Most of the time I still download individual GPX files onto the Garmin and only use PQs if I'm targeting a bunch of caches in a series or a well-defined area.

 

Basic members have it a bit easier now as they get the full GPX file instead of just the .loc files.

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20 minutes ago, barefootjeff said:

 

Like kunarion, I started off in 2013 downloading individual .loc files onto my Garmin and printing out the cache descriptions. I even decoded the hints by hand. I became a PM after about six weeks and eleven finds, mainly so I could get the full details onto the GPSr. Most of the time I still download individual GPX files onto the Garmin and only use PQs if I'm targeting a bunch of caches in a series or a well-defined area.

 

Basic members have it a bit easier now as they get the full GPX file instead of just the .loc files.

 

Yeah, that's right!  I used to get .LOC files, load them into the GPS, with the very basic information, and I also converted cache pages to view text on the Palm PDA.

 

I didn't have "An App" in 2009, but I was able to set up and hunt my own caches by manually saving the waypoints.  That's what I think the OP should do, with the owned cache maintenance, with whatever App is suitable.  If it's a cache beside a street, existing phone Apps might be fine.  I know where most of my caches are without even starting a GPS.

 

Edited by kunarion

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I don't mind paying for the premium membership. I can list it as a business expense since I do some work with my local Parks and Recreation and lead some geocache-themed programs.

That being said, I will never publish a premium cache. The idea of hiding a fun cache behind a paywall smacks of snobbery in my book.

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1 hour ago, zachaquack1987 said:

The idea of hiding a fun cache behind a paywall smacks of snobbery in my book.

Before this became a largely zero investment game and the players were a bit different, I'd agree with you.  The fact that many COs report they feel the need for moving some of their caches to premium due to increased problems since the phone app was released is worth considering, and explains why a fair number are simply created that way now.

 

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2 hours ago, zachaquack1987 said:

I don't mind paying for the premium membership. I can list it as a business expense since I do some work with my local Parks and Recreation and lead some geocache-themed programs.

That being said, I will never publish a premium cache. The idea of hiding a fun cache behind a paywall smacks of snobbery in my book.

 

I created a cache where nobody previously could keep one, and PMO was just one part of that plan, an important part.  That cache remained fun.  People* who insist PMO Cache Owners are smacking their snob are ignoring something very important:  If I never published a PMO cache, that cache spot would be empty.

 

But the OP isn't about this anyway.  He already decided the PMO / Not PMO thing, the question was about why he couldn't go find his own PMO cache for maintenance after he reverted to Basic.  But he can in The Official App.  He does not have to pay.  He just needs to set it up as a waypoint.  He already knows what's on the cache page.

 

* present company excluded of course. :D

 

Edited by kunarion
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1 hour ago, zachaquack1987 said:

The idea of hiding a fun cache behind a paywall smacks of snobbery in my book.

 

Try telling that to the owners of the non-PMO caches that fell victim to The Cache Smasher. This was the remains of one I came across the day after the attack.

 

CacheSmasher.jpg.b39b63317f562c6bb27a8ae21b40616e.jpg

 

The PMO caches in that region survived simply because they were invisible to that muggle-with-app.

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10 minutes ago, barefootjeff said:

The PMO caches in that region survived simply because they were invisible to that muggle-with-app.

 

^ This.  People need to have a heart.  Sometimes "PMO" is the last ditch effort to keep a cache viable, before it's gone forever.  There are a buhzillion free caches, give or take, go find them and enjoy.  A free one can't exist in that spot, but it can once PMO.

 

And even then, Basic Members find and log PMO caches just fine.  "Basic" is just that... it's slightly less convenient, so you may opt to pay a small fee for convenience (otherwise, nobody would pay).  PMO isn't actually set up to stop people from Geocaching.  It actually facilitates Geocaching.

 

Edited by kunarion
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Most of ours aren't PMO. But when I've had to go out and buy some marine plywood, paint,hinges,arduino boards/displays/components/solenoids etc to make a cool gadget cache, then spend a whole bunch of hours (that could be spent finding caches) preparing it for release, I'm happy to only release it only to those who are happy to contribute to this game as well.

 

Sue me, call me a snob.

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1 minute ago, lee737 said:

call me a snob.

 

You, sir, are a snob.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

:P

 

 

 

 

:ph34r:

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On 9/18/2020 at 11:46 PM, kunarion said:

The OP doesn't have to pay, nor experience things.  And the OP isn't loading GPX files, in The App.  It's just for one cache, for maintenance.  The App can definitely be used for free, to be guided to a cache or two for maintenance, PM or not.  I don't suggest using a phone for geocaching, but within the parameters of the OP, no paying is necessary.

Can I just point out that the op only posted once, a year and a half ago. This thread hasn’t been about them in ages. When I posted, it was about a bunch of premium members jabbering about percentages PMO caches, completely ignoring all the other restrictions the app places on you. It has since moved to a whole ’nother brand of off topic, still exclusively by premium members, so I guess my wake up call wasn’t successful.

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35 minutes ago, kunarion said:

 

You, sir, are a snob.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

:P

 

 

 

 

:ph34r:

Lucky for you we don't have ICBMs in Oz.:P

Edited by colleda
typo
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30 minutes ago, mustakorppi said:

Can I just point out that the op only posted once, a year and a half ago. This thread hasn’t been about them in ages. When I posted, it was about a bunch of premium members jabbering about percentages PMO caches, completely ignoring all the other restrictions the app places on you. It has since moved to a whole ’nother brand of off topic, still exclusively by premium members, so I guess my wake up call wasn’t successful.

 

Point taken. :cute:

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33 minutes ago, mustakorppi said:

It has since moved to a whole ’nother brand of off topic, still exclusively by premium members

Just how many basic members frequent the forums anyway?

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49 minutes ago, mustakorppi said:

Can I just point out that the op only posted once, a year and a half ago. This thread hasn’t been about them in ages. When I posted, it was about a bunch of premium members jabbering about percentages PMO caches, completely ignoring all the other restrictions the app places on you. It has since moved to a whole ’nother brand of off topic, still exclusively by premium members, so I guess my wake up call wasn’t successful.

 

No-one is forcing you to use the official app. There are other partner apps out there that might suit you better, or you could buy a GPSr and then you can download the GPX files for any non-PMO caches you want.

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9 hours ago, barefootjeff said:

No-one is forcing you to use the official app. There are other partner apps out there that might suit you better, or you could buy a GPSr and then you can download the GPX files for any non-PMO caches you want.

<—as you can see, I’m a premium member.

 

The partner apps use the API and are also limited. E.g. Cachly shows only trads and events, and you’re limited to downloading the full data of 3 caches per day. This is precisely why I asked people when they’ve actually last tried being a basic member. Or if by ”partner apps” you meant one specifc non-partner app available only on Android, I’d like you to pause and think about how that situation makes geocaching look to new people. ”Huh... I have to pay” indeed.
 

Also, are you seriously suggesting that people who have a problem paying for premium membership should just buy a GPSr instead? I mean, it’s totally something you can do, that’s why I went out of my way to mention it in my original post. But again, when was it that you were in this position? How many of the devices advertised on garmin.com Right now support geocaching? The cycling computers don’t, InReach devices don’t, wearables don’t... you need to buy a very specific kind of GPSr that has limited application outside geocaching.

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1 minute ago, mustakorppi said:

<—as you can see, I’m a premium member.

 

The partner apps use the API and are also limited. E.g. Cachly shows only trads and events, and you’re limited to downloading the full data of 3 caches per day. This is precisely why I asked people when they’ve actually last tried being a basic member. Or if by ”partner apps” you meant one specifc non-partner app available only on Android, I’d like you to pause and think about how that situation makes geocaching look to new people. ”Huh... I have to pay” indeed.

 

Still no. You can load GPX files from the website with many apps. Every cache you can see on the website as basic member is available if your app supports GPX import.

For Android GDAK (no longer API partner) does, so does Locus and I'm sure others do too.

 

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9 minutes ago, on4bam said:

Still no.

What is no and since when has it been no? What are you trying to say? Do you personally cache that way and think it’s fine?

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You still don't have to pay. Your only restricted to seeing non-PM caches. You can see all D/T combinations and all cachetypes. You can download all these caches as individual GPX files and have them available in an app on your phone.

And yes I have loaded individual caches after downloading GPX files from the cachepage. I load them in GSAK to load caches in bulk to my GPS (don't have a smartphone).

So again, you can cache for free, I chose not to as I'm all set up for API use instead of the website.

 

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Admittedly, it's been quite a while, but I found a few caches for which I typed the coordinates into a mapping app from a piece of paper. No navigation available, thus I only looked at the map of where the cache is and where I was. Works.

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30 minutes ago, terratin said:

Admittedly, it's been quite a while, but I found a few caches for which I typed the coordinates into a mapping app from a piece of paper. No navigation available, thus I only looked at the map of where the cache is and where I was. Works.

When I started, I found hundreds of geocaches with a basic membership, no smartphone, and no GPS receiver. And I've used API-partner apps as a basic member, although it's been a couple years since the last time. I really don't understand the whining about how hard it is for basic members to go geocaching.

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51 minutes ago, niraD said:

When I started, I found hundreds of geocaches with a basic membership, no smartphone, and no GPS receiver. And I've used API-partner apps as a basic member, although it's been a couple years since the last time. I really don't understand the whining about how hard it is for basic members to go geocaching.

 

Exactly. I was premium member quite early, but could still not connect my gps to the computer to download gpx files. Not even single ones. Thus it always came down to putting the coordinates in by hand and having hints on a piece of paper.

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7 minutes ago, terratin said:

I was premium member quite early, but could still not connect my gps to the computer to download gpx files. Not even single ones.

Thus it always came down to putting the coordinates in by hand and having hints on a piece of paper.

 

Having a 2/3rds that works in IT/IS there were no issues with computers.  I'd have one made for me very-other year.  :)

 - But it never seemed a chore to enter caches manually.  I still do it today, and use small tablets for hints n stuff.

Edited by cerberus1

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The same goes for my GPS12XL. Enter by hand with arrows to select numbers, WP name (geocachename) just 8 characters long, no map, just an arrow pointing to the cache or WP. Later I had software to load the limited memory of the GPS. Especially for multi's a printed copy of the cachepage was a must.  PM or not, just about everybody had to do the same thing.

 

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5 hours ago, mustakorppi said:

Also, are you seriously suggesting that people who have a problem paying for premium membership should just buy a GPSr instead? I mean, it’s totally something you can do, that’s why I went out of my way to mention it in my original post. But again, when was it that you were in this position? How many of the devices advertised on garmin.com Right now support geocaching? The cycling computers don’t, InReach devices don’t, wearables don’t... you need to buy a very specific kind of GPSr that has limited application outside geocaching.

 

That's exactly what I did when I first started caching as a basic member in 2013. I found my first cache without any form of GPS, just using the satellite image and the hint to locate it, then, having decided I was interested enough to invest in the game, I went to a local electronics retailer that had the Garmin 62S on special. I didn't have a smart phone so any apps that existed then weren't an option, but even if they were, do you expect the phone companies to give you a phone and data plan for free? Mine costs a lot more a year than the one-off price of that Garmin.

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It's just the way the world works.....

Geocaching.com is a company, with employees to run it (very well too), who need a pay cheque.

I think the amount of free content on the website is actually pretty generous, and really there are only inconveniences left in place to encourage people to join/contribute.

A basic eTrex-10 GPSr here is $159, must be sub-US$100..... and I'm sure they can be picked up cheaper on eBay. 

On a bang-for-buck scale, geocaching has been the best hobby I've ever had, probably on any scale really, and worth every cent, the premium membership being a tiny proportion of all the cents I've tipped into it.....

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The more "free" something is to use, the more "we" become the products because income has to be generated from advertising and generally invasive content.  I'm absolutely content with the more-than-reasonable yearly fee to help dissuade that from happening with this website to more than the degree we see now with some minor advertising and promotional partnerships.

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I posted this already using slightly more colorful wording, but it was deleted. This thread is a bunch of premium members discussing how easy basic members have it, based on experience from years ago at best. Draw your own comparisons, but be careful not to post them I guess.
 

I have no interest in arguments on whether PM is worth it, or about Groundspeak Inc.’s financial model in the context of this thread. You may note that I have not a single time complained about the cost or about having to pay it.

 

But I have strongly hinted that yes, you do have to pay it to make geocaching at all viable. Bragging about how hard you had it back in the day is not a convincing counterargument. People playing Adventure Labs for free right now don’t have to go uphill both ways in the snow to do it.

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38 minutes ago, mustakorppi said:

I posted this already using slightly more colorful wording, but it was deleted. This thread is a bunch of premium members discussing how easy basic members have it, based on experience from years ago at best. Draw your own comparisons, but be careful not to post them I guess.
 

I have no interest in arguments on whether PM is worth it, or about Groundspeak Inc.’s financial model in the context of this thread. You may note that I have not a single time complained about the cost or about having to pay it.

 

But I have strongly hinted that yes, you do have to pay it to make geocaching at all viable. Bragging about how hard you had it back in the day is not a convincing counterargument. People playing Adventure Labs for free right now don’t have to go uphill both ways in the snow to do it.

 

To be fair, you can still play for free rather well - I do. But you do have to have an "old fashioned" mindset perhaps.

 

I imagine that it's certainly not awfully easy if you're dependent on the free app and paperless caching I imagine. But then I remember the old free app only allowed three finds being logged on it (maybe)?

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