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Goldenwattle

Letterbox caches

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I wish there was more restriction on what can be called a Letterbox cache. I am disappointed when I find them and all they are is a plastic box with a stamp added to it. Sometimes the log is so small I can't fit my (not large) stamp on it. So, why are they called a Letterbox cache? Why were they allowed to be published as such? Surely the reviewer should ask questions how this varies from ordinary traditionals, because often they don't, except for the stamp, almost added as an after thought.

The Letter box caches I remember (and which are worth being called letter box caches) are those that are actually a letter box, or something else interesting. I found several Letter box caches by one CO, which were mini metal sculptures. Brilliant caches. Effort and thought had gone into them.

I feel Letter box caches should be something out of the ordinary, not just another common plastic box with a stamp added as an after thought.

 

What are other people's thoughts?

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I'm not a letterboxer, and I don't have my own stamp or my own log for letterbox stamps. But the part of LBH caches that interests me is the letterbox-style clues. I haven't bothered searching for any of the "traditional with a stamp" style LBH caches.

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10 minutes ago, Goldenwattle said:

I feel Letter box caches should be something out of the ordinary, not just another common plastic box with a stamp added as an after thought.

 

What are other people's thoughts?

 

I have always felt that the "driving factor" in letterboxes for me wasn't necessarily the contents of the box (even though I understand that the stamp is a crucial element), but rather was the manner in which you find it.

 

I take a look a letterbox hybrids and if they don't  have "instructions" on how to find the cache on the page then I typically avoid them. Otherwise they're nothing more than a trad in a different color.

 

For me the letter-boxing experience is what you think of when you imagine an old school treasure map. Give me a starting point and directions to follow and I'll do the rest. 

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6 hours ago, Goldenwattle said:

So, why are they called a Letterbox cache?

 

According the guidelines, you can call it a Letterbox Hybrid cache if you have a rubber stamp in the cache. And basically that's all you need to know. :lostsignal:

There is a huge amout of misunderstandings concerning letterbox hybrids. These are the main rules

 

Quote

A Letterbox Hybrid container must contain:

  • A rubber stamp
  • A logbook

When you add a stamp to your cache, the cache type changes to Letterbox Hybrid

 

The only exceptions are Wherigo Cacheschallenge caches, bonus caches and all other non physical cache types. They are not allowed to be Letterbox Hybrids.

 

There is a slightly misleading sentence in the Letterbox Hybrid guidelines

 

Quote

In addition, the cache description can contain written instructions to guide geocachers to the container.

 

I have learned that even this is true for Letterbox Hybrid caches, any cache can contain written instructions to guide geocachers to the container,  any, it is not an addition to the Letterbox Hybrids despite the wording in the guidelines.

 

You may argue that this is against the basic principle that each geocache published on Geocaching.com must include GPS usage for geocachers who look for that cache, but actually, the GPS usage is only a mandatory option for other possible means. You are allowed to tell the cache position using any means in addition to GPS usage. This is not a privilege for Letterbox Hybrid caches.

Edited by arisoft
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1 hour ago, arisoft said:

According the guidelines, you can call it a Letterbox Hybrid cache if you have a rubber stamp in the cache.

And that's the problem. As I said, many are basically a traditional plastic box with a stamp thrown in as an after thought. If they can't be more special than that, why have Letter box caches?

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I feel the same - I wish LBH to be more special than just minimalistic design of Trad + stamp. 

 

More special in my understanding =

  • letterbox-style clues to be involved somewhere in the hunt
  • logbook large enough for stamps

It's only my preference. I would support additional restriction, but I don't think it's realistic expectation.

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16 minutes ago, Goldenwattle said:

As I said, many are basically a traditional plastic box with a stamp thrown in

Yes, seems so. A good (or bad) example:

1513122009_2019-02-1112_42_34-Geocaching_GeocachingMaps.thumb.jpg.66e48589781ccebba9e00c7a36c07100.jpg

 

I rembemer the first Letterbox I´ve found. Special tool was required, the box was big and well made. And for the first years (started in 2010) any Letterbox was in some way special, dividing clearly from the average of traditionals. This difference seems to fade away more and more :(

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3 minutes ago, Rikitan said:

I feel the same - I wish LBH to be more special than just minimalistic design of Trad + stamp. 

 

More special in my understanding =

  • letterbox-style clues to be involved somewhere in the hunt
  • logbook large enough for stamps

It's only my preference. I would support additional restriction, but I don't think it's realistic expectation.

 

Agreed! I always appreciate when a letterbox goes "the extra mile."

 

 

Just now, DerDiedler said:

Yes, seems so. A good (or bad) example:

1513122009_2019-02-1112_42_34-Geocaching_GeocachingMaps.thumb.jpg.66e48589781ccebba9e00c7a36c07100.jpg

 

I rembemer the first Letterbox I´ve found. Special tool was required, the box was big and well made. And for the first years (started in 2010) any Letterbox was in some way special, dividing clearly from the average of traditionals. This difference seems to fade away more and more :(

 

It seems like if the possibility exist TO create a powertrail, somebody will. *sigh*

 

There's nothing wrong with Geo-Art but in my opinion there are good ways to do it, and bad ways.

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In the early days of the site, according to old forum threads, roughly 15% of all caches were cross-listed letterboxes. In all cases that I know about, the letterbox owner simply listed the cache at coords on Geocaching.com. 

The cache type LBH was invented in part to protect the stamp.

 

I mention that coords are a perfectly good letterbox clue. A great one, in the pre GPS era, ie, as recently as 2000. Also, for those who suppose that early letterboxing had some fancy elaborate story telling to find the box, allow me to show you the ACTUAL clues for the Dartmoor boxes, image below

Crockern Tor HP tor 222.5. LHE trees 002 and 039. Trig 081.5. 12p from wall. Plugged in ground between 2 6ft x 3ft slabs. (Contains visitors book)

Lydford Gaol Chimney 076.5. Stile 110. RHS tree clump by wall 181. RHS logan type rock 273. HP tor 350. Under E end of 1.5ft x 4ft x 1.5ft part embedded rock.

 

 

 

 

 

dartmoor lbh 1984.jpg

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Each time this topic comes up, I find myself wondering why trad as container at coords with log, no story, nothing much beyond the find + 1 is okay, and LBH the same, is less okay.

Anyway, be the change you want. I own a few LBH. All full sized ammo can caches, with hand carved, themed stamps.  I'm not concerned about story telling to get you there. It's a location I liked well enough to put a cache on it. 

 

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8 minutes ago, STNolan said:

It seems like if the possibility exist TO create a powertrail, somebody will. *sigh*

 

There's nothing wrong with Geo-Art but in my opinion there are good ways to do it, and bad ways.

This LBH powertrail (which is not too far from my home zone) is a textbook example of what can be "wrong" with PTs:

  • Type LBH just to please the stats crowd. Many boxes had no stamp whatsoever from the beginning.
  • D/T ratings arbitrarily distributed in the D>3/T>3 corner, quite often way off a realistic rating, again just to please those who like to ramp up their D/T "loop count".
  • Owner account is a sock puppet, and the "real" owners (who are, incidentally, also known almost country-wide as "creative loggers" a.k.a. cheaters) have all logged all caches as "beta testers". Again, just to boost their own stats.
  • No maintenance plan whatsoever, and obvious fake logging (e.g. the whole trail on one day, which is physically impossible) is never questioned. Ok, these two points are probably standard procedure for all PTs.

I started geocaching in 2008, and at that time, LBHs were really rare and mostly something "special". Nowadays ... not so much :( .

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33 minutes ago, Rikitan said:

I feel the same - I wish LBH to be more special than just minimalistic design of Trad + stamp. 

 

More special in my understanding =

  • letterbox-style clues to be involved somewhere in the hunt
  • logbook large enough for stamps 

It's only my preference. I would support additional restriction, but I don't think it's realistic expectation.

Definitely big enough log for stamps. Some could have clues, but I don't think that should be the only way a cache can be a Letter box cache. I feel an actual letter box is okay. Or it could be placed in an interesting cache, as some I have found. Some had a small puzzle to open it. Maybe my favourite; a metal person (not tiny) and (from memory) you had to find a number to open something to find the key. That was I think under the metal hat, then you had to use the key to open the chest and in there were two good sized plastic containers; one with stamp and good sized log, the other for trinkets. A lot of effort had gone into making this.

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44 minutes ago, Goldenwattle said:
2 hours ago, arisoft said:

According the guidelines, you can call it a Letterbox Hybrid cache if you have a rubber stamp in the cache.

And that's the problem. As I said, many are basically a traditional plastic box with a stamp thrown in as an after thought. If they can't be more special than that, why have Letter box caches?

Because, at the time when this cache type was introduced, there were no "Cache Attributes."  Letterbox Hybrid caches were added so that people wouldn't take the stamp as a trade item (and in the hope that people would cross-list letterboxes from other websites as geocaches on Geocaching.com).  If this issue came up in 2011 instead of 2001, we would instead see "Has a Letterboxing Stamp" as a Cache Attribute.

 

You can have a Traditional Cache with a letterboxing stamp, a Mystery Cache with a letterboxing stamp or a Multi-Cache with a letterboxing stamp.  That sure sounds like an attribute.

 

If you don't like Traditional Caches with letterboxing stamps, limit yourself to Mystery Caches and Multi-Caches with letterboxing stamps.  You can usually tell from a quick read of the cache description.  If you do like Traditional Caches rather than Mystery Caches, then hooray - you can score a rarer icon by finding one with a letterboxing stamp inside.

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9 hours ago, Goldenwattle said:

Why were they allowed to be published as such? Surely the reviewer should ask questions how this varies from ordinary traditionals, because often they don't, except for the stamp, almost added as an after thought.

All that we can confirm is the presence of a letterboxing stamp, and adherence to the guidelines for the underlying cache type (traditional, mystery or multi).

 

Beyond that, I really don't want to go there in judging the merits of a cache design:

 

Quote

Hello, I am a Community Volunteer Reviewer.  I reviewed your Letterbox Hybrid cache submission.

I'm sorry to tell you this, but your baby is ugly.  Please try again to produce something that is smarter and more creative.

Post a new reviewer note when this cache is ready for me to look at again.

 

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1 hour ago, Keystone said:

Beyond that, I really don't want to go there in judging the merits of a cache design:

 

Quote

Hello, I am a Community Volunteer Reviewer.  I reviewed your Letterbox Hybrid cache submission.

I'm sorry to tell you this, but your baby is ugly.  Please try again to produce something that is smarter and more creative.

Post a new reviewer note when this cache is ready for me to look at again.

 

I guess we're not going to see you volunteering as geoawareUSA10 any time soon, then.

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Geocachers in Finland often complain that it is almost impossible to get a new EC accepted. I have not tried but some player have given up. There are 151 active ECs and only 2 published at last year in Finland. Indeed, the quality control is much better for them. :D

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47 minutes ago, geoawareUSA9 said:
Quote

Hello, I am a Community Volunteer Reviewer.  I reviewed your Letterbox Hybrid cache submission.

I'm sorry to tell you this, but your baby is ugly.  Please try again to produce something that is smarter and more creative.

Post a new reviewer note when this cache is ready for me to look at again.

 

I guess we're not going to see you volunteering as geoawareUSA10 any time soon, then.

 

When one of the Geoawares returns mine this is exactly what it feels like.

Although maybe not "make your cache smarter and more creative" more like when you were in school and they would say "I know this isn't your best work." :lol:

 

 

Although with non-ECs I can't even begin to imagine the wormhole it would open up if every reviewer was expected to be subjective instead of objective. Oy what a mess that would be.:wacko:

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14 hours ago, niraD said:

I'm not a letterboxer, and I don't have my own stamp or my own log for letterbox stamps. But the part of LBH caches that interests me is the letterbox-style clues. I haven't bothered searching for any of the "traditional with a stamp" style LBH caches.

 

Same here.

I've never created one, but how does this work when submitting one?  Is it like a mystery with the final coordinates hidden and the posted coordinates being where one starts or are the posted coordinates supposed to be the actual cache and the directions to the cache are just basically unnecessary instructions?

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In regards to instructions, a LBH can provide instructions to get from posted to the cache container without requiring use of a GPS. Orienteering, puzzles, whatever.

 

All other physical caches can do the same, but at some point must make use of a GPS device.

 

A LBH doesn't have to be somewhere other than the posted coordinates - it can be at posted. But all LBH's must have a stamp.

 

Those are really the only distinctions to my understanding.

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14 hours ago, Goldenwattle said:

I wish there was more restriction on what can be called a Letterbox cache.

I am disappointed when I find them and all they are is a plastic box with a stamp added to it. Sometimes the log is so small I can't fit my (not large) stamp on it. So, why are they called a Letterbox cache? Why were they allowed to be published as such? Surely the reviewer should ask questions how this varies from ordinary traditionals, because often they don't, except for the stamp, almost added as an after thought.

The Letter box caches I remember (and which are worth being called letter box caches) are those that are actually a letter box, or something else interesting. I found several Letter box caches by one CO, which were mini metal sculptures. Brilliant caches. Effort and thought had gone into them.

I feel Letter box caches should be something out of the ordinary, not just another common plastic box with a stamp added as an after thought.

 

What are other people's thoughts?

 

I'd rather there weren't any more restrictions on this hobby than absolutely needed,  thanks.  :)

IIRC these were never considered true letterboxes, but a variant.   

 - Any cache type requiring a container can be a LBH by simply adding a stamp.   

We haven't found many LBH, most around here are pmo and I haven't done pm caches in some time.

Majority we found had a simple hint to location after the "use of GPS" stage.   The rest were a trad with/without a stamp.

 -  Most didn't have a stamp when we got there. 

Two never had a stamp (as per the CO...), but are archived now.   IIRC It had something to do with stat or challenge thing, owning all cache types...

Many had a "log" that was too small (and no backing to apply pressure)  for even our small stamp. Rigged best we could.

We had two custom stamps made for us, hers was a cartoon version so folks could tell which was there if solo.

 

 

 

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24 minutes ago, J Grouchy said:

I've never created one, but how does this work when submitting one?  Is it like a mystery with the final coordinates hidden and the posted coordinates being where one starts or are the posted coordinates supposed to be the actual cache and the directions to the cache are just basically unnecessary instructions?

I've never created/submitted on myself, but the ones I've found have used the posted coordinates as a specific starting location. The posted coordinates were not a generic location like the park entrance or the parking lot, but a specific location you had to find before the initial clues would work. From there, clues told you how to get to the final. I assume that the final was a hidden waypoint, but as a non-owner, I couldn't see the hidden waypoints.

 

FWIW, I"ve also found mystery/puzzle caches that worked in a similar manner. Accurate GPS coordinates were used to find a specific location, and from there, the final was located following some other type of clue.

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28 minutes ago, thebruce0 said:

In regards to instructions, a LBH can provide instructions to get from posted to the cache container without requiring use of a GPS. Orienteering, puzzles, whatever.

 

All other physical caches can do the same, but at some point must make use of a GPS device.

 

You got it slightly wrong. When you make a LBH cache you must offer the opportunity to use GPS. There is no exemption from the GPS usage rule.

 

 

 

 

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50 minutes ago, J Grouchy said:

've never created one, but how does this work when submitting one?  Is it like a mystery with the final coordinates hidden and the posted coordinates being where one starts or are the posted coordinates supposed to be the actual cache and the directions to the cache are just basically unnecessary instructions?

 

First you make a normal geocache, (traditional, multi or puzzle) and you follow the guidelines related to your chosen cache type. Then you add the rubber stamp and select cache type to LBH. That's all you need to do.

Edited by arisoft

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Thank you, arisoft, for the clear and accurate answers in the two posts above this one.

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1 hour ago, arisoft said:

 

First you make a normal geocache, (traditional, multi or puzzle) and you follow the guidelines related to your chosen cache type. Then you add the rubber stamp and select cache type to LBH. That's all you need to do.

 

 

So basically a traditional with a rubber stamp, with an option to add completely unnecessary written directions.  Got it.

Pretty pointless...but whatever.

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10 minutes ago, J Grouchy said:

Pretty pointless...but whatever.

That seems to define geocaching pretty much.  Still fun ... At least for some people.

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22 minutes ago, J Grouchy said:

So basically a traditional with a rubber stamp, with an option to add completely unnecessary written directions.  Got it.

Pretty pointless...but whatever.

 

Don't get this wrong. The option to add unnecessary writen directions is allowed to all caches. It is up to CO how to arrange the adventure. For example, some COs add a spoiler image to a cache description. Some other COs add written instruction like "magnetic, under the bench". etc.

 

You can divide all caches to two separate categories depending on how they use GPS.

- Caches you can find without using a GPS are like traditional Letterboxes when no GPS was available.

- Caches you can not find without using a GPS are like Geocaches (or Fake Letterboxes).

Both groups can be Letterbox Hybrid caches if they have the rubber stamp.

 

 

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3 hours ago, arisoft said:
3 hours ago, thebruce0 said:

In regards to instructions, a LBH can provide instructions to get from posted to the cache container without requiring use of a GPS. Orienteering, puzzles, whatever.

 

All other physical caches can do the same, but at some point must make use of a GPS device.

 

You got it slightly wrong. When you make a LBH cache you must offer the opportunity to use GPS. There is no exemption from the GPS usage rule.

 

Yes, I missed that - GPS use isn't required, but it has to be there as an option.

 

1 hour ago, J Grouchy said:

So basically a traditional with a rubber stamp, with an option to add completely unnecessary written directions.  Got it.

Pretty pointless...but whatever.

 

Technically the minor difference is you can't let someone have the intended experience of not using a GPS in a non-LBH cache. If I intend an experience to take you from A to B without GPS (of course allowing people who wish to use gps the ability to do so), I can't provide that same experience in any other type unless A to B requires gps at some point. A minor distinction, but one that could dramatically change the design of an experience.

 

So, pointless for people who don't do stamps and who only want to use gps. (for the most part, as do I)

Not pointless for people who want to try and experience different fun things while geocaching. (put the gps down for a while, and try to find the cache using an experience designed not to use the gps, without using the 'backup' gps method also provided).

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1 hour ago, arisoft said:

You can divide all caches to two separate categories depending on how they use GPS.

 - Caches you can find without using a GPS are like traditional Letterboxes when no GPS was available.

 - Caches you can not find without using a GPS are like Geocaches (or Fake Letterboxes).

 Both groups can be Letterbox Hybrid caches if they have the rubber stamp.

What about caches you cannot find without using a GPS, but which require also following non-GPS clues. That would describe the LBH caches that I've found, as well as some of the mystery/puzzle caches and multi-caches that I've found.

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44 minutes ago, thebruce0 said:

I can't provide that same experience in any other type unless A to B requires gps at some point. A minor distinction, but one that could dramatically change the design of an experience.

 

There is no such minor difference. You can convert any LBH to a Traditional, Multi- or Mystery Cache type depending on the underlying type of the LBH.

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4 minutes ago, niraD said:

What about caches you cannot find without using a GPS, but which require also following non-GPS clues. That would describe the LBH caches that I've found, as well as some of the mystery/puzzle caches and multi-caches that I've found.

 

A close similar situation would be library caches. They have to be classified in a standard physical cache type. So reviewers (afaik) are required to have the owner require a GPS component - for example use coordinates to locate stage 1 outside the library, which contains instructions for how to find the container inside the library.

 

In theory, you could publish a LBH as a library cache, but you'd have to provide the 'alternative' in the form of something using GPS coordinates (approximate location within the library maybe?). But afaik all the library caches around here are multi or mystery.

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1 minute ago, arisoft said:
51 minutes ago, thebruce0 said:

I can't provide that same experience in any other type unless A to B requires gps at some point. A minor distinction, but one that could dramatically change the design of an experience.

 

There is no such minor difference. You can convert any LBH to a Traditional, Multi- or Mystery Cache type depending on the underlying type of the LBH.

 

Yes. Example:

 

LBH: Option 1) Use instructions to go from A to B to C.  Option 2) Use GPS to get to the final location at C.

Standard physical: Same option 1) Not possible. Option 2) Solve the puzzle/do the task to get coordinates for stage B/C/etc.

 

The intended means of getting to the final as in Option 1 (no gps required) of the LBH is only allowed in the LBH.  To have the same experience in a standard physical, the experience would need to be altered to require gps use at some point between A and C (ie, as described in option 2).

 

For people who only want to use gps, there's no proactical difference between the cache types - they all must provide a manner of finding the container using a GPS. But the LBH can provide an optional method that doesn't require a gps.

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6 minutes ago, niraD said:

What about caches you cannot find without using a GPS, but which require also following non-GPS clues. That would describe the LBH caches that I've found, as well as some of the mystery/puzzle caches and multi-caches that I've found.

 

If you can not find the cache without GPS it is not a Traditional Letterbox in this context. The cache you found was a Letterbox Hybrid cache because there was the rubber stamp.

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3 minutes ago, thebruce0 said:

The intended means of getting to the final as in Option 1 (no gps required) of the LBH is only allowed in the LBH. 

 

Wrong. It is allowed for all caches.

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16 minutes ago, niraD said:

What about caches you cannot find without using a GPS, but which require also following non-GPS clues. That would describe the LBH caches that I've found, as well as some of the mystery/puzzle caches and multi-caches that I've found.

It may be that somehow some LBH caches got by and published without having a GPS optional component. LBHs can have ways to find them that don't require a GPS, but they need to have an alternative method that uses GPS.

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Just now, thebruce0 said:

It may be that somehow some LBH caches got by and published without having a GPS optional component. LBHs can have ways to find them that don't require a GPS, but they need to have an alternative method that uses GPS.

 

I have not seen any - yet. Some LBH caches are basically mystery caches with well hidden final coordinates but have clearly visible clue which you can follow to the cache without solving the mystery part at all or even notising that there is such task available.

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12 minutes ago, arisoft said:
16 minutes ago, thebruce0 said:

The intended means of getting to the final as in Option 1 (no gps required) of the LBH is only allowed in the LBH. 

 

Wrong. It is allowed for all caches.

 

I didn't say "is the only allowed" way in LBH. I said "is only allowed in" the LBH. Yes, I can absolutely design a method of finding the cache that does not require GPS. But the listing must be published with an alternative method that uses GPS.

 

Technically speaking, I can convert convert the cache to a standard physical type, because the listing provides one method of finding the cache with the GPS - but now it also provides an alternative method that doesn't require gps.

 

It's kind of like publishing fake-challenge caches - caches that can be found and signed like a regular cache, but the CO has decided to provide an opt-in personal challenge you can participate in if you wish.

From the LBH standpoint - the intent is/can be non-GPS, with the optional GPS method (which is required to exist for publishing).

From the standard cache perspective - the requirement is a GPS method, with the optional non-GPS method.

 

ETA: Okay, I just realized how I contradicted myself, in a way =P Technically the non-GPS method of finding a cache is allowed in all caches, not only in LBHs - but, in standard physical it can only be presented as an optional method.

Edited by thebruce0

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Just now, arisoft said:

Some LBH caches are basically mystery caches with well hidden final coordinates but have clearly visible clue which you can follow to the cache without solving the mystery part at all or even notising that there is such task available.

 

Yep, that's what I'm referring to. In that case the user can choose their method of finding the cache. GPS use isn't required. But the option (for finding) is required to be there (for publish).

 

In a standard cache, the GPS method is required to be there (for finding and publishing). So either the non-GPS method can be presented as an optional method, or the main method is the non-GPS experience altered in some way to require the GPS.

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1 minute ago, thebruce0 said:

I didn't say "is the only allowed" way in LBH. I said "is only allowed in" the LBH. Yes, I can absolutely design a method of finding the cache that does not require GPS. But the listing must be published with an alternative method that uses GPS.

 

Yes, now we are on the same page.

 

1 minute ago, thebruce0 said:

It's kind of like publishing fake-challenge caches - caches that can be found and signed like a regular cache, but the CO has decided to provide an opt-in personal challenge you can participate in if you wish.

 

My only LBH cache is exactly this kind of "UnChallenge Cache". I had to make it a LBH because it is not allowed to publish an "UnChallenge" as a Mystery Cache type and my cache has a mystery part. In this very special case the LBH was the only option to get it published.

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17 minutes ago, thebruce0 said:

It may be that somehow some LBH caches got by and published without having a GPS optional component. LBHs can have ways to find them that don't require a GPS, but they need to have an alternative method that uses GPS.

 

LBH caches do require the use of a GPSr for the first stage.  And not a parking spot or trail head.

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5 minutes ago, thebruce0 said:

In a standard cache, the GPS method is required to be there (for finding and publishing). So either the non-GPS method can be presented as an optional method, or the main method is the non-GPS experience altered in some way to require the GPS. 

 

Let me show you a Traditional Geocache.  https://www.geocaching.com/geocache/GC3496C_captain-obvious

 

Do you think that you could find the cache without any kind of GPS usage? There is english version of in the middle of the description.

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10 minutes ago, Harry Dolphin said:

LBH caches do require the use of a GPSr for the first stage.  And not a parking spot or trail head.

 

This is relevant when you create a LBH where the underlying cache type is Multi-cache or Traditional Cache. If your LBH is based on Mystery Cache type then there is no GPS usage requirement at the bogus-coordinates.

Edited by arisoft

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37 minutes ago, arisoft said:

 

This is relevant when you create a LBH where the underlying cache type is Multi-cache or Traditional Cache. If your LBH is based on Mystery Cache type then there is no GPS usage requirement at the bogus-coordinates.

 

GPSr is still required for an LBH.  The mystery version requires GPSr coordinates to a stage.

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The geocaching version, Letterbox Hybrids, combines the use of GPS, and the stamps of letterboxing. As with all geocaches, this cache type must include GPS usage. In addition, the cache description can contain written instructions to guide geocachers to the container.

 

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3 hours ago, arisoft said:
2 hours ago, niraD said:
3 hours ago, arisoft said:

You can divide all caches to two separate categories depending on how they use GPS.

 - Caches you can find without using a GPS are like traditional Letterboxes when no GPS was available.

 - Caches you can not find without using a GPS are like Geocaches (or Fake Letterboxes).

 Both groups can be Letterbox Hybrid caches if they have the rubber stamp.

What about caches you cannot find without using a GPS, but which require also following non-GPS clues. That would describe the LBH caches that I've found, as well as some of the mystery/puzzle caches and multi-caches that I've found.

 

 

LetterBox Hybrids (or is it LetterBox Hides?) have always confused me.  Unfortunately, this discussion hasn't helped!  And maybe the meaning and interpretation of the term LetterBox is regional, adding to the confusion!!

 

I've only found a handful (4) caches with the LetterBox icon.  One was just a multi/mystery - go to GZ (using GPS coordinates) and grab #'s off a plaque to fill the final coordinates for a container.  Two were using GPS coordinates to get to a specific point, then following non-GPS clues to find a cache container.  And one was just a container at the given GPS coordinates.  The ONLY difference is that the cache containers had a stamp, and a book large enough for us to stamp with what we are using as a LB stamp.  But it shows a s a LetterBox find, not a trad or multi - as that's what the CO has designated.

 

I understand that Letterboxing existed before geocaching, but I still don't get the "hybrid" aspect and how you distinguish between a LetterBox hybrid and and multi, or mystery, except that one contains a "stamp" to mark your Letterbox book (we don't have one!) and you, in turn, place your stamp in the Letterbox book.  (We do have a stamp that we are using for this).  What am I missing?

Edited by CAVinoGal

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17 minutes ago, CAVinoGal said:

a book large enough for us to stamp

Not all Letter box caches have a book big enough to stamp. So how can they be called Letter box caches? They are just traditionals. Letter box caches should be two way. Have a stamp and a book big enough for the finder to use their stamp on. Or pointless.

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30 minutes ago, CAVinoGal said:

I understand that Letterboxing existed before geocaching, but I still don't get the "hybrid" aspect and how you distinguish between a LetterBox hybrid and and multi, or mystery, except that one contains a "stamp" to mark your Letterbox book (we don't have one!) and you, in turn, place your stamp in the Letterbox book.  (We do have a stamp that we are using for this).  What am I missing?

 

Not much - see Keystone's explanation above for the history behind LBHs and how, if they'd been instigated a bit later on, would have probably used a "has a letterboxing stamp" attribute on a trad/multi/mystery rather than being a separate cache type.

 

I've found two LBHs, one was a tupperware traditional that had a stamp and a stampable logbook, the other an actual metal letterbox the CO had put on a post in his front yard. I think the type where you follow clues from the listed coordinates starting point to the container might be a lot more fun.

 

I have a new cache under construction which will be going at the end of the PMG Trail in Brisbane Water National Park (assuming National Parks approve it, but the ranger said it looked okay so I'm just waiting for the paperwork to go through). PMG in this country stands for Post Master General, which used to be the government department responsible for the postal service, telegraphs and telephones until it all got broken up and corporatised in the 1970s. There are some exposed buried cables along the trail so I assume it was built for those but I'm not sure where they go as the trail just stops at the end of a spur where there are nice views of the Patonga Creek estuary but not much else. Anyway, long story short, I was thinking initially of making it an LBH as that would've tied in nicely with the PMG theme, but one of the National Parks conditions for cache placement is that the container can't have anything in it except a logbook, information card, pen/pencil and a pencil sharpener, so no trackables, no SWAG and definitely no stamps allowed. Oh well.

 

PMGTrail.jpg.e9ceb0c9eb9198fbb17193f631527927.jpg

Edited by barefootjeff

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1 hour ago, Harry Dolphin said:

 

LBH caches do require the use of a GPSr for the first stage.  And not a parking spot or trail head.

Well, I guess all of my LBH's are illegal then. The GPS just takes cachers to the trail head, and LB style directions go from there. 

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1 hour ago, CAVinoGal said:

 

LetterBox Hybrids (or is it LetterBox Hides?) have always confused me.  Unfortunately, this discussion hasn't helped!  And maybe the meaning and interpretation of the term LetterBox is regional, adding to the confusion!!

 

I've only found a handful (4) caches with the LetterBox icon.  One was just a multi/mystery - go to GZ (using GPS coordinates) and grab #'s off a plaque to fill the final coordinates for a container.  Two were using GPS coordinates to get to a specific point, then following non-GPS clues to find a cache container.  And one was just a container at the given GPS coordinates.  The ONLY difference is that the cache containers had a stamp, and a book large enough for us to stamp with what we are using as a LB stamp.  But it shows a s a LetterBox find, not a trad or multi - as that's what the CO has designated.

 

I understand that Letterboxing existed before geocaching, but I still don't get the "hybrid" aspect and how you distinguish between a LetterBox hybrid and and multi, or mystery, except that one contains a "stamp" to mark your Letterbox book (we don't have one!) and you, in turn, place your stamp in the Letterbox book.  (We do have a stamp that we are using for this).  What am I missing?

 

Yes.  That would seem to be a good definition of a LetterBox Hybrid.  LetterBoxes existed before Geocaching.  Go to a specific location.  Follow clues to find the container with the stamp, and pad.  In the early days, Geocaching added LetterBox Hybrids.  Go to the coords.  Follow the clues.  Cache at the location.  Or follow the clues to find the cache.  Can be 'mystery', 'multi' 'traditional'.  The only requirements are coords for the start, and a stamp in the container.  

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2 hours ago, barefootjeff said:
3 hours ago, CAVinoGal said:

What am I missing?

 

Not much - see Keystone's explanation above for the history behind LBHs and how, if they'd been instigated a bit later on, would have probably used a "has a letterboxing stamp" attribute on a trad/multi/mystery rather than being a separate cache type.

 

:laughing:  OK.  Guess I'll stop trying to figure out what a LetterBox icon really means, and just find them as the CO's have placed them, whether it be following clues (walk East till you come to a bridge, then go across the bridge and head North ...) solving a field puzzle, or just finding a cache at GZ.  The attribute seems to make more sense to me, as I never could quite "get" the cache type! 

"Hybrid" does take into account the traditional, multi, and mystery type - with the stamp as part of the deal (I still signed the logbook as well as used our stamp; sometimes there were two books too, adding to my confusion).  It's not a distinct and separate cache type, it's a hybrid.  OK, I think I get it now.

Edited by CAVinoGal

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15 hours ago, arisoft said:

Let me show you a Traditional Geocache.  https://www.geocaching.com/geocache/GC3496C_captain-obvious

 

Do you think that you could find the cache without any kind of GPS usage?

 

I didn't say you have to find every standard geocache type with GPS use. I said standard geocache types are required to have a method of finding it with GPS use.

 

13 hours ago, Goldenwattle said:
14 hours ago, CAVinoGal said:

a book large enough for us to stamp

Not all Letter box caches have a book big enough to stamp. So how can they be called Letter box caches? They are just traditionals. Letter box caches should be two way. Have a stamp and a book big enough for the finder to use their stamp on. Or pointless.

 

Yep, I've seen micro letterboxes with the typical rollup sheet and a tiny little stamp that can be used in people's personal logbooks.

(I've also seen people do what was mentioned above and publish without a stamp at all, in which case it's not a LBH cache)

 

13 hours ago, NanCycle said:
15 hours ago, Harry Dolphin said:

 

LBH caches do require the use of a GPSr for the first stage.  And not a parking spot or trail head.

Well, I guess all of my LBH's are illegal then. The GPS just takes cachers to the trail head, and LB style directions go from there. 

 

Yep, same. Instructions are on the cache listing.  Typically it could be something like:

"Face this object, turn 90 degrees and walk 100 paces into the woods. Alternatively, project 50m at 114 degrees true from posted coordinates."

Aside from LBH's that are at the posted coordinates, I'd say that may be one of, if not the most common type of LB instruction, if the final location isn't just already added as an additional public waypoint.

 

The LB "task" is to get from posted to the final location. But the LBH cache has to have an alternative gps-required method to find the container.

 

As I mentioned earlier, it's a minor distinction from other standard geocache types. Same mentality as the 'unchallenge', it's a matter of what's intended and what's alternative. A similar experience for a standard cache could be:

"Start at posted coordinates, project 50m at 114 degrees true to find the cache. Alternative, you can try your hand without a gps and face this object, turn 90 degrees and walk 100 paces into the woods."

 

In practice, both methods provide identical experience options for finding, the difference you could say is the 'spirit' of the cache type. While a LBH can effectively be as basic as a Traditional with a stamp, the spirit of the cache type is the orienteering non-gps task (but a gps method is a required alternative). That task alone can't be used as a multi or mystery, but it could be used as the alternative to the intended manner of finding a standard Multi or Mystery with the GPS.

 

--

In practice, the LBH is really only distinguished by the stamp.

In spirit, the LBH starts from non-gps task, requiring a gps alternative. Others start from gps-required, but you can provide a non-gps alternative.

Edited by thebruce0
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