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? HUHHHH ? Travelers Meet and Greet Events

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22 minutes ago, BugLuv said:

Thank you. I’m admittedly not a social person or a hostess personality...but, isn’t it awkward to meet 3-4 people? I’m trying to picture what is planned for these small gatherings? The legit effort ones.

 

I prefer the real small gatherings.  Little chance of the natural shifting to only folks you know.  :)

 - New people think it's a "clique" thing, and for the most part it is, simply people you're familiar.  I like to stir things up a bit.   :D

3-4 people, I'd have a couple unactivated signature geocoins to pass out, and probably have a few trackables to exchange (depending on their goals).

We don't discuss find totals, but will mention caches we've enjoyed the most with others.  Sometimes we don't even talk about this hobby.

Hang out with an ice cream, coffee,  whatever ...  and make small talk. 

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Thanks for the replies! Sounds interesting. Love the idea of handing something out or exchanging TBs.

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I’m admittedly not a social person or a hostess personality...but, isn’t it awkward to meet 3-4 people? I’m trying to picture what is planned for these small gatherings? The legit effort ones.

 

Small is beautiful. We attended a local event that attracted four people, excluding the host (an official Lackey). My husband was attracted by the theme of the event, had a terrific time. 

I created an event cache whose theme is at least partly about my love for the venue's refreshment offerings; I have bad luck with the available dates (I have to drive 120 km to the event).  I'm telling myself that the venue space cannot hold a large number of people. If my family are the only ones who show up, at least we're going to have terrific food and drink.

 

I'm now wondering what happens if nobody attends an event cache. Has that happened?  

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On 2/5/2019 at 10:00 PM, DerDiedler said:

Some "impossible" events seem to work sometimes. Like this one:  GC5JE9K

 

But yea, I´m also finding it pointless to host an event only fpr yourself. It might always be possible that some people show up, but this cruise ship stops are verry random events.

I´d kinda like the idea, that a published event, where only the owner attended will be deleted. I can have events with my self every day, on the toilet for example :P

 

Neat. That event was attended by a cacher I've almost crossed paths with (he dropped around 80-100 trackables in GC46 right before I found it).

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On 7/21/2019 at 11:15 AM, BugLuv said:

Thank you. I’m admittedly not a social person or a hostess personality...but, isn’t it awkward to meet 3-4 people? I’m trying to picture what is planned for these small gatherings? The legit effort ones.

 

Some of the smaller events are the best. You can actually hold a group conversations without the issues caused by large groups...

- ADHD

- Cliques

- Over stimulation

- etc etc

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Posted (edited)
On 2/5/2019 at 8:00 PM, DerDiedler said:

I´d kinda like the idea, that a published event, where only the owner attended will be deleted.

Little difference between a single traveller who holds an event and is the only once to turn up, and a wife and husband who hold an event and they are the only ones to turn up, but they get to keep their logs, while the single traveller gets theirs deleted. It can be hard enough already for single travellers. Just another difficulty added.

Edited by Goldenwattle
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On 8/5/2019 at 8:57 AM, Goldenwattle said:
On 2/5/2019 at 9:00 AM, DerDiedler said:

I´d kinda like the idea, that a published event, where only the owner attended will be deleted.

Little difference between a single traveller who holds an event and is the only once to turn up, and a wife and husband who hold an event and they are the only ones to turn up, but they get to keep their logs, while the single traveller gets theirs deleted. It can be hard enough already for single travellers. Just another difficulty added.

 

I held an event in Senegal, attended by me and seven other cachers: my wife, my two sons, my sister, and my three nephews.  (Haven’t been able to persuade my brother-in-law to sign up yet!)

 

I understand DD’s sentiment, but should they all lose their smileys too?

 

(Getting more attendees was always a long shot, but the opportunity was there.)

 

Edit: Just reading back through this thread, and realise I’m repeating myself.  I posted almost exactly the same thing back in February.  Must be old age...

 

Edited by IceColdUK
Old age

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1 hour ago, IceColdUK said:

I understand DD’s sentiment, but should they all lose their smileys too? 

No, of course not.

I mean you were 7 individual cachers. Of course traveling together anyway, so this event was not exactely in the spirit of what a GC event should be. But at least kinda eventish.

 

Just an owner  (on a port or enywhere else) is not a event and should not be rewarded. Fullstop.

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54 minutes ago, DerDiedler said:

Just an owner  (on a port or enywhere else) is not a event and should not be rewarded. Fullstop.

But that reads like it's okay if they have their husband or wife with them. Two people. Then they can be rewarded. Very unfair on the single traveller. I am not keen on this sort of event either, but your suggestion is discriminative.

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On 7/18/2019 at 4:55 PM, Harry Dolphin said:

My nephew attended an event in Thailand.  From 16:00 to 16:30.  The event owner did not make it to the event, but logged a long 'found it' with the history or the area.  The event owner hosts many events, frequently while travelling.  Quite a number of times, the only attendees are the event owner and companions.  

 

Yea that was a strange event. https://coord.info/GC6XNRF

 

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5 hours ago, DerDiedler said:

No, of course not.

I mean you were 7 individual cachers. Of course traveling together anyway, so this event was not exactely in the spirit of what a GC event should be. But at least kinda eventish.

 

Just an owner  (on a port or enywhere else) is not a event and should not be rewarded. Fullstop.

 

The spirit of a geocaching event is to bring together like-minded geocaching individuals. If it's a failed attempt then it's no less of an attempt.

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13 hours ago, Goldenwattle said:

Little difference between a single traveller who holds an event and is the only once to turn up, and a wife and husband who hold an event and they are the only ones to turn up, but they get to keep their logs, while the single traveller gets theirs deleted. It can be hard enough already for single travellers. Just another difficulty added.

And would it matter whether the husband and wife have separate accounts, or the husband and wife have a single joint account?

 

And what if other geocachers attend the event, but don't log online? I've known geocachers who never log online, and others who are months/years behind on posting logs.

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24 minutes ago, niraD said:

And would it matter whether the husband and wife have separate accounts, or the husband and wife have a single joint account?

 

And what if other geocachers attend the event, but don't log online? I've known geocachers who never log online, and others who are months/years behind on posting logs.

I don't know why we're taking the proposal seriously. Why not just assume that anyone scheduling an event does so in good faith expecting attendance? If they attend, they get credit even if something prevents anyone else from showing up. Not only do I see no reason to deny them that, I worry that by having a rule that blocks them from getting credit for attending the event, we'll encourage them to not show up if they aren't sure anyone else is going to make it.

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15 minutes ago, dprovan said:

I don't know why we're taking the proposal seriously.

I'm not sure that pointing out obvious issues with the proposal is the same as taking it seriously.

 

But with that said, simply ignoring silly proposals might lead to Groundspeak actually implementing them, because they didn't see any other views expressed in the forums.

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17 hours ago, Goldenwattle said:

But that reads like it's okay if they have their husband or wife with them. Two people. Then they can be rewarded. Very unfair on the single traveller. I am not keen on this sort of event either, but your suggestion is discriminative. 

It´s not. Try to be not so digital. There is alway grey between black an white.

I´ve never said that I find it a good or legit event when 2 cachers like a couple "meet". This is, as I mentioned, not the spirit of GC events. And of course not the intented way.

But there´s no way for the system to determine whether the two (or 7 ;) ) cachers met randomly or are traveling together anyway.

I´m sure you understood, why I´m finding it pointless to have "attended" an event with nobody else there. And whilst haisplitting, I might bring to your attention that I´ve never suggested a thing here in this thread. I´ve just said: 

On 2/5/2019 at 10:00 AM, DerDiedler said:

I´d kinda like the idea, that a published event, where only the owner attended will be deleted.

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5 minutes ago, DerDiedler said:

 I´ve never suggested a thing here in this thread.

Aaawwwww, not true. I guess that´s a suggestion:

18 hours ago, DerDiedler said:

Just an owner  (on a port or enywhere else) is not a event and should not be rewarded.

And I´ll stick with it. It´s the only way for a non secret service system like Geocaching to determine a no-real-event.

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13 hours ago, bflentje said:

If it's a failed attempt then it's no less of an attempt.

Are you suggesting there should be the aditional log type "attempted"? :D

 

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13 hours ago, dprovan said:

Why not just assume that anyone scheduling an event does so in good faith expecting attendance?

 

Maybe because there are plenty of example of people scheduling an event even thought it's most likely, and expected, that they'll be the only one in attendance and that their actual intent is make it easy to get a find in a new country.  

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1 hour ago, NYPaddleCacher said:

 

Maybe because there are plenty of example of people scheduling an event even thought it's most likely, and expected, that they'll be the only one in attendance and that their actual intent is make it easy to get a find in a new country.  

 

The only thing I can say for sure is that if you don’t organise an event, no one will come!  Anything else is pure speculation.

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1 hour ago, NYPaddleCacher said:

 

Maybe because there are plenty of example of people scheduling an event even thought it's most likely, and expected, that they'll be the only one in attendance and that their actual intent is make it easy to get a find in a new country.  

Maybe that's someone off a cruise ship. It would be a good way to meet up with any other geocachers on a cruise. Otherwise how do they find out if another geocacher is on that cruise? Someone who they might then be able to cache with. Of course for that to be effective, the meet does need to be at the first port.

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Posted (edited)
On 2/5/2019 at 9:00 AM, DerDiedler said:

I´d kinda like the idea, that a published event, where only the owner attended will be deleted.

 

Trouble with this is it's so easily circumvented:

I hold an event -> nobody else attends -> I create a sock account -> I log an attend from a sock account - > event is retained.

 

I don't think GS should be doing anything to discourage cachers from holding events, the "problem" of people holding events where they are the only  attendee isn't really something that needs to be solved.

Edited by MartyBartfast
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2 hours ago, NYPaddleCacher said:

Maybe because there are plenty of example of people scheduling an event even thought it's most likely, and expected, that they'll be the only one in attendance and that their actual intent is make it easy to get a find in a new country.  

 

How/why is this a "problem" that needs to be solved.

 

Why is it such a big issue that ACacher goes to a country and gets a "find" from an event (which may or may not attract dozens of attendees), rather than finding a leaky, mould infested, plastic tube under a lamp post?

 

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1 minute ago, MartyBartfast said:

rather than finding a leaky, mould infested, plastic tube under a lamp post?

It that country has a cache to be found at all :).

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12 minutes ago, MartyBartfast said:

I hold an event -> nobody else attends -> I create a sock account -> I log an attend from a sock account - > event is retained.

I´m verry aware of this, thought about it as well. And yes, as long there is any way to cheat, people will use that way. But I´d asume, the number of fishy events would decline significantly since not so much people would choose to cheat by creating a fake account. 

 

12 minutes ago, MartyBartfast said:

How/why is this a "problem" that needs to be solved.

I think it´s a problem for cometitive people and for purists. Some countrys are just hard to get by a real, physical find. And that´s why purists feel cheated when a cacher gets a hard country on a to easy, cheeky way.

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37 minutes ago, DerDiedler said:

But I´d asume, the number of fishy events would decline significantly since not so much people would choose to cheat by creating a fake account. 

 

If by ‘fishy events’ you mean those held by people who expect (even hope?) that nobody else will attend, then I disagree.  These are the people with exactly the motivation to game the system.  (Maybe I’m being naive, but I’m not convinced that there are too many of these people out there.  And even if they do walk amongst us, I don’t see that there’re doing any harm to me or the game in general.)

 

The people that will be discouraged are those folk who genuinely want to meet new people on their travels, and have their event deleted after an unfortunate ‘non-event’.

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1 hour ago, MartyBartfast said:

 

How/why is this a "problem" that needs to be solved.

 

Why is it such a big issue that ACacher goes to a country and gets a "find" from an event (which may or may not attract dozens of attendees), rather than finding a leaky, mould infested, plastic tube under a lamp post?

 

 

It seems to go beyond the intent of what an event is, and what geocaching is. 

 

 

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1 hour ago, L0ne.R said:

It seems to go beyond the intent of what an event is, and what geocaching is. 

Only if no one else shows up. If someone else attends, it's exactly what the intent of an event it.

 

2 hours ago, DerDiedler said:

But I´d asume, the number of fishy events would decline significantly since not so much people would choose to cheat by creating a fake account. 

Are there enough fishy events that we could measure such a decline? I seriously doubt there are many events where the owner wasn't hoping someone else would attend and wouldn't be thrilled if someone attended. I don't think we can rule that "fishy" even if we here in our ivory tower considering the probability low.

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5 hours ago, L0ne.R said:

It seems to go beyond the intent of what an event is, and what geocaching is. 

I would agree for events which are created in the (almost) certain knowlege that nobody else will attend, but not for events which are created in good faith but nobody else chooses to attend. So I still think it's not a problem that needs to be fixed.

 

 

6 hours ago, DerDiedler said:

I think it´s a problem for cometitive people and for purists.

Geocaching was never intended to be a competition, so the PTB shouldn't pander to the egos of those who try to make it one. I would rather see GS support those who choose to host events, and accept that there will be a (very) few "fishy" events which slip through the net which don't harm or disadvantage the vast majority of cachers.

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4 minutes ago, MartyBartfast said:

I would agree for events which are created in the (almost) certain knowlege that nobody else will attend, but not for events which are created in good faith but nobody else chooses to attend. So I still think it's not a problem that needs to be fixed.

 

For 'good faith' events, I think the problem could partially be solved by not counting events toward the smiley count.

The people who create in the almost certain knowledge that nobody else will attend are unlikely to want to publish an event. Remove the smiley, remove part of the incentive. Should also help with the issue of people who "attend" but don't actually attend. MIght also decrease the stacking events problem.  

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10 hours ago, Goldenwattle said:

Maybe that's someone off a cruise ship. It would be a good way to meet up with any other geocachers on a cruise. Otherwise how do they find out if another geocacher is on that cruise? Someone who they might then be able to cache with. Of course for that to be effective, the meet does need to be at the first port.

As a regular cruiser I agree and have mentioned in another related thread somewhere here, that I have yet to have been on a cruise and found another geocacher on the same ship. In the last 7.5 years 15 ocean cruises (3 in USA) and 4 river cruises (1 in USA, 1 EU). I would never plan an event for a port as I really have no idea, two weeks ahead, about where I will be or what I'd be doing. I could easily end up not being at my own event due to time of tours or excursions.

The thought has never crossed my mind to set an event to get a country souvenir. I consider it more legit to find a cache already existing in that country.

 

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1 hour ago, colleda said:

As a regular cruiser I agree and have mentioned in another related thread somewhere here, that I have yet to have been on a cruise and found another geocacher on the same ship. In the last 7.5 years 15 ocean cruises (3 in USA) and 4 river cruises (1 in USA, 1 EU). I would never plan an event for a port as I really have no idea, two weeks ahead, about where I will be or what I'd be doing. I could easily end up not being at my own event due to time of tours or excursions.

The thought has never crossed my mind to set an event to get a country souvenir. I consider it more legit to find a cache already existing in that country.

 

I have only been on one cruise so far, and I would like to have had a way of finding out if there was another geocacher aboard, but had no idea how. It's not in the cruise ship's favour to assist in this either, for if they assisted to link up any geocachers aboard with others, they are less likely to buy their tours, and instead are likely to share a taxi ride and go caching together. On my cruise I put caching above tours, except in Suva where there is only one cache; at the museum. I took a tour that included the museum so I could log that cache. While others entered the museum I ran across the neighbouring park to answer the multicache questions and then find the cache. And I did in good time and still had time to view the small museum. The other caches in other ports I walked to. Not all ports had caches. The longest walk was eight kms on Lifou Island, which gave me one traditional and two earth caches. I would have liked company. My travel companion has mobility problems, so except for the bus tour around Suva she stayed aboard the ship and I went ashore by myself.

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There is a way of finding out if someone on the cruise is a geocacher but only if they have registered on the Cruise Critic website under the Role Call topic. (Cruise Critic is now linked with Trip Advisor). You can look up the roll call for your cruise ship, introduce yourself and, if you like, state your interests or hobbies. On the roll call cruisers can organise to meet others and join in private, non ship, tours. On most cruise lines, if enough people register on the roll call, they will organise a meet and greet on the first or second day of the cruise. If there is a geocacher among the guests it's an ideal time to meet and discuss your geocaching plans in person. I always join the Roll Call but, so far, have not met another geocacher but I remain optimistic that one day it may happen.

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9 hours ago, colleda said:

As a  ... >>> I could easily end up not being at my own event due to time of tours or excursions.

 

 

Had to chuckle at the plucked comment from a larger quote.

 

There we sat pondering where everyone was who was logging attendances at our event ... Hmmmmmmmm a belated check revealed that we,THE HOSTS, had our butts parked at the wrong restaurant.  Correct restaurant chain ... unfortunately the incorrect site.

 

Fortunately we knew a number of folks in attendance, AT THE CORRECT LOCATION, phone calls were made and they held down the fort for us.  

 

We arrived with much fanfare and many guffaws and a little egg on our faces ... it was an breakfast meeting so perhaps we with egg on our faces were viewed as sloppy eaters.

 

 

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Posted (edited)
22 hours ago, MartyBartfast said:

 

How/why is this a "problem" that needs to be solved.

 

Why is it such a big issue that ACacher goes to a country and gets a "find" from an event (which may or may not attract dozens of attendees), rather than finding a leaky, mould infested, plastic tube under a lamp post?

 

 

  

 

Why can't people just  admit it when they're gaming the system and are knowingly creating an event that will almost certainly have only attendee and are doing so specifically so that the can get a find in a new country with the least amount of effort?   I'm not saying that's a big problem/issue that must be solved.  I am just wondering why some seem to be getting so defensive about it.  

Edited by NYPaddleCacher
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41 minutes ago, NYPaddleCacher said:

I am just wondering why some seem to be getting so defensive about it.  

Well perhaps in my case it's just because I generally don't appreciate over regulation (in any walk of life), and as I've said before (I think in this thread somewhere) I think some of the mechanisms suggested for fixing this "problem" will result in fewer events being organised and that would be a bad thing, certainly worse than letting a (very) few people organise events just to get a smiley.

 

If you think I'm taking this stand to defend my own shonky practices feel free to have a look at my profile, I've never organised an event (and most probably never will), and I've only ever attended UK events, never while on holiday abroad. Oh and I've never been on a cruise (but there's no way you could verify that).

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Of course, it can be a dual (or more) and legitimate purpose:

 1.)  The organizer gets a new country in their profile;

 2.)  There is the opportunity to meet other cachers -- either from the same ship, another ship also in port, or any other local geocachers that might want to attend.

 

Of the ones that I know of, most of the time, someone other than the organizer has turned up, and it ended up being a small but worthwhile event.

 

 

 

 

 

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I've been on three cruises, and know that there were other cachers on board our ship, but only once did I meet one.  On our Alaskan cruise we saw logs on caches that mentioned our ship (multple ships were in port).  On our Turks/Carricos & Bahamma cruise another cacher saw us with the GPRr's and joined the hunt for a cache.  On our Southern Carribean cruise we saw logs on caches while we were the only ship in port.  I'd thought about trying to do an event, but didn't have good enough info to pick a spot (though we did attend an event done by a local on one island).  I really wish I'd tried on Jamacia - we DNF'd both caches near the dock.

 

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9 hours ago, NYPaddleCacher said:

Why can't people just  admit it when they're gaming the system and are knowingly creating an event that will almost certainly have only attendee and are doing so specifically so that the can get a find in a new country with the least amount of effort?   I'm not saying that's a big problem/issue that must be solved.  I am just wondering why some seem to be getting so defensive about it.  

Are you accusing me of gaming the system? My best guess is that no one admits gaming the system because no one is gaming the system. Sure, they may like getting the country. Yeah, they may not expect anyone else to attend. But I see no reason to doubt that they're hosting the event because they want to have an event and they sincerely hope people will come to it.

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Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, NYPaddleCacher said:

...knowingly creating an event that will almost certainly have only attendee...

 

I’ve never created an event on my travels knowing that no one else will attend, and I’d be surprised if anybody has.  (Sure, it might be a long shot but that makes it all the more fun when it comes off.)

 

12 hours ago, NYPaddleCacher said:

...find in a new country with the least amount of effort?

 

In all of the places I’ve held events there have been ways of finding caches with much less effort than organising an event.  (I find organising an event overseas actually takes a fair bit of effort.)

 

12 hours ago, NYPaddleCacher said:

I am just wondering why some seem to be getting so defensive about it.  

 

Maybe because people don’t like being accused of cheating?

 

Edited by IceColdUK
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14 hours ago, dprovan said:

My best guess is that no one admits gaming the system because no one is gaming the system. Sure, they may like getting the country. Yeah, they may not expect anyone else to attend. But I see no reason to doubt that they're hosting the event because they want to have an event and they sincerely hope people will come to it.

When I have talked to cachers who actually hosted an event at a location, where the chances of someone attending other that themselves (and their co-travellers) were extremely small, the reasoning was always(!) the same: It was by far the easiest (and in a few cases only) way to make sure they get the country into their find stats. Of course nobody would have complained if local cachers had showed up, but the primary purpose of the event was the "country point".

 

Maybe I'm just talking to the wrong people ;) , but from my personal experience, these "Meet & Greet" events at "exotic" places and/or cruise ports are hosted not for social but for statistics purposes.

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On 8/7/2019 at 7:58 PM, IceColdUK said:
On 8/7/2019 at 7:54 AM, NYPaddleCacher said:

...find in a new country with the least amount of effort?

 

In all of the places I’ve held events there have been ways of finding caches with much less effort than organising an event.  (I find organising an event overseas actually takes a fair bit of effort.)

 

I have been to a few places where it would have been far easier to organize an event then find a cache.  I was in Zambia for about a week and never got close to a cache.  I *did* manage to get one in Tanzania, but it was the only one available within 50 miles of where I was staying.  

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3 minutes ago, NYPaddleCacher said:

I have been to a few places where it would have been far easier to organize an event then find a cache.

 

I found it be the opposite, at least for the way we travel. We do and plan everything ourselves and that means careful thinking about being at a certain place at a certain time while not knowing 100% sure everything will work out as planned.

The first time we created an event was for a trip in Greenland where we found (using GE) a suitable place. We were a bit late to arrive at that location because our day's activities but a few people were waiting already (there was a picnic table). We met cachers from Germany and Denmark and had a great time talking about the hobby. We already found some of the caches before the event.

We held three events in Galapagos, all three some distance from our B&B, located near a small square at the waterfront. Only at one of them a US couple joined us for 10 minutes as they had a tight schedule. We had found caches at all three islands before.

The last one in Stanley, Falkland Islands I expected some people to get there but no such luck. Cruises stop by (on the way to Antarctica) but there were none that day. I met a local cacher the next evening after exchanging e-mails. He couldn't make it on the event date. Once again, we found caches before the event.

I'm still thinking about an event for next holiday but it's not easy to find a time/place where we will be with nearly 100% certainty . Things to consider are always, am I sure we can make it there on time, Is it easily accessible and is it a nice area (park, seaboard) to sit and meet people. Again, finding caches there will be no problem, we already have found caches in that country but I would love to meet local cachers as it seems cache culture is a lot different than where we live (many traditionals, not so many earthcaches and other types...)

I wouldn't dream to use an event to "score" a country.

 

 

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Posted (edited)

I guess this is going round in circles.  (Bet that’s never happened before!)

 

Ok, I accept that some people organise events in remote locations where the attendance of cachers (other than their travelling companions) is unlikely.  I even accept that for some of them, the primary motivation is ‘bagging’ the country.

 

I certainly don’t accept that this is the norm.

 

Either way, as unlikely as that attendance might be, so long as the event isn’t designed to make it even less likely (private venue, daft start time, etc., etc.) then I still see no problem.  The opportunity was there.

 

What annoys me is the cynicism on the forum that seems to suggest anyone organising a meet and greet event is motivated purely by statistics.  Yes, I like to attend events (as well as finding caches) in new places, but in no way is that my only motivation to host such events.

 

For me, Geocaching is a social activity.  I like meeting my fellow cachers.  I look out for events when I’m travelling, and occasionally I’ll host an event of my own.  Why should this be discouraged or derided?

Edited by IceColdUK
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If we are worried that Joe is the type of person who would host an event just to get another country's souvenir, why are we not worried that Joe is the type of person who would set up a sock puppet account in said country, have that account "hide" a cache in that country, and then Joe can "find" that cache?

 

Personally, I'd rather have an event that no one else showed up to on the map than a completely bogus cache on the map.  I'm only affected if I am also in that country on the same day as the event, vs winding up looking for a cache that never existed.

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On 8/8/2019 at 5:30 AM, baer2006 said:

When I have talked to cachers who actually hosted an event at a location, where the chances of someone attending other that themselves (and their co-travellers) were extremely small, the reasoning was always(!) the same: It was by far the easiest (and in a few cases only) way to make sure they get the country into their find stats. Of course nobody would have complained if local cachers had showed up, but the primary purpose of the event was the "country point".

I can't deny that the find in another country is likely a big motivator. But that doesn't justify saying they didn't, in addition, have all the right reasons for having an event and really hoped someone else would show up even though it seemed unlikely.

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