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Jayeffel

Cache evident but not accessible

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Wonder how many times the occurs: you look for a cache , you can see it but cannot access kit. I ran across such a cache recently. It is along a Rail to Trail. Once near the coordinates you can look to the cache and see it from the trail, may not be hidden where not is supposed to be though. It may be 50 feet to less to the cache.

 

The problem is a farmer erected a fence that encloses the cache, since the fence is electric I didn't feel it necessary to check to closely. There is a herd of goats in the enclosure so I am sure the current is on. I checked without the Rail to Trail group and was told they "know" about the electric fence on their property, It may or not be authorized by the trail owners. 

 

I sent messages to the CO and a reviewer to let them know. The cache could be moved to another nearby spot several decent places nearby. The CO appears to be a free hours away, so trips to check on it are probably few and far between. I have not contacted the farmer, hoping the Cumberland Valley Rail Trail  is in contact.  I claimed it as a find with note to the CO stating the situation.

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As a Finder I would have logged it as a NM with a photo of the situation. 

 

As a CO I would usually give the seeker permission to log a find, but I would probably be displeased if a seeker assumed they could log a find.

 

Should be disabled promptly. It may be that the goat farmer placed the fence incorrectly, either accidentally or even deliberately as part of some feud with the trail owner. It's also possible the trail ROW simply isn't as wide as the CO thought and the Reviewer didn't realize the cache had strayed on to private property. 

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15 minutes ago, Jayeffel said:

I claimed it as a find with note to the CO stating the situation.

That should be a DNF. You didn't get to it.

Added: I agree with the last entry. If the CO gives permission to log that is one thing, but you shouldn't have presumed to log without it.

Edited by Goldenwattle
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15 minutes ago, Goldenwattle said:

That should be a DNF. You didn't get to it.

Added: I agree with the last entry. If the CO gives permission to log that is one thing, but you shouldn't have presumed to log without it.

That is why I sent him the message, stated I logged it as found unless he disagrees.

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17 minutes ago, JL_HSTRE said:

As a Finder I would have logged it as a NM with a photo of the situation. 

 

As a CO I would usually give the seeker permission to log a find, but I would probably be displeased if a seeker assumed they could log a find.

 

Should be disabled promptly. It may be that the goat farmer placed the fence incorrectly, either accidentally or even deliberately as part of some feud with the trail owner. It's also possible the trail ROW simply isn't as wide as the CO thought and the Reviewer didn't realize the cache had strayed on to private property. 

I did put pic on the log, and made a needs maintained log, sent the CO messages directly as well s contacting the reviewer so he is better aware of the situation . Where not is in on the right of Way to the trail, what In don't know is if permission was granted either for the fence or the cache- I think the fence was erected since September 2018, the cache was placed 8/28/12.

 

I have no problem with a DNF, mainly seeing if something can be done so the cache is once again viable or archived so it is not a concern.

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I wouldn't have logged it as a find but rather a DNF.  Seeing as how the fence surrounds the cache, it's my assumption the cache came first and the fence second.  I'd be shocked if the CO placed the cache inside the fence to begin with.  File the NM, include the picture/description of why you did so, and move on until you hear back from the CO.  I've had that happen once on one of my caches.  I had placed it where there was no fence and then a few months later a cacher posts the NM log, letting me know that there's a fence in the way now.

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The next finder might appreciate it if the cache were logged as a DNF or Note. A DNF/Note alerts the next finder to read more to see why it's a DNF/Note. They can then skip the cache and go look for other caches. If it's logged as a find, even with the CO's permission, there will be a green dot (depending on the app) indicating that the cache was found, which presumes that the cache is accessible. Many finders don't read the description and logs until they get to ground zero.  

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6 minutes ago, L0ne.R said:

The next finder might appreciate it if the cache were logged as a DNF or Note. A DNF/Note alerts the next finder to read more to see why it's a DNF/Note. They can then skip the cache and go look for other caches. If it's logged as a find, even with the CO's permission, there will be a green dot (depending on the app) indicating that the cache was found, which presumes that the cache is accessible. Many finders don't read the description and logs until they get to ground zero.  

There are other DNF logs, some stated they saw it , they all mentioned the electric fence-- one reason I wanted to check it out.  I changed it to DNF until hear otherwise from the CO. If it is moved some I have an idea where to took! If archived oh well. I have pics on the log of the fence etc. I did have one on that showed what appears to be the cache, intended only to sent to the CO but messed up somehow, I deleted it. (cache GC3VMNW)

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Could be that the goats are temporarily at this location.  Goats are used in my area fire suppression measures, and they do a pretty good job of clearing the area of grasses (the fence in the foreground is electric):

 

image.png.07c0147cd7b0ec9006213ca0cc4a6e82.png

Edited by Touchstone
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I thought of that. The area the goats are in is pretty brushy, briar and rocky. It is possible they are there temporarily due to a lot of  water in a nearby field where they may have been earlier.  Plenty of standing water in the local fields. I just wanted the CO , the trail owners, and the reviewer know about the situation. What I saw from the trail looked like a cache container, but by the description is was to be hidden. As it is, it is accessible only to the goats who may investigate.

 

It is entirely possible the trail group gave permission for the fence, that didn't indicate that though. Always something popping up when geocaching.

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2 hours ago, Jayeffel said:

Wonder how many times the occurs: you look for a cache , you can see it but cannot access kit. I ran across such a cache recently. It is along a Rail to Trail. Once near the coordinates you can look to the cache and see it from the trail, may not be hidden where not is supposed to be though. It may be 50 feet to less to the cache.

 

The problem is a farmer erected a fence that encloses the cache, since the fence is electric I didn't feel it necessary to check to closely. There is a herd of goats in the enclosure so I am sure the current is on. I checked without the Rail to Trail group and was told they "know" about the electric fence on their property, It may or not be authorized by the trail owners. 

 

I sent messages to the CO and a reviewer to let them know. The cache could be moved to another nearby spot several decent places nearby. The CO appears to be a free hours away, so trips to check on it are probably few and far between. I have not contacted the farmer, hoping the Cumberland Valley Rail Trail  is in contact.  I claimed it as a find with note to the CO stating the situation.

 

Yeah, that was probably the cache that you spotted but,, what if it wasn't? The actual cache could be hidden on the trail side of that fence. How far away from the container did your phone or gpsr show you were?

Edited by Mudfrog

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It may be a temporary clearing thing where they set goats out to eat the invasive weeds and vines.

 

I personally would have posted a Note instead of a Found It or DNF log...but that's been discussed to death already.

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1 hour ago, Jayeffel said:

I claimed it as a find with note to the CO stating the situation.

 

27 minutes ago, Jayeffel said:

I changed it to DNF until hear otherwise from the CO.

 

How would the CO's input impact the reality of whether you retrieved the container and signed the log?

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1 minute ago, Mudfrog said:

 

Yeah, that was probably the cache that you spotted but,, what if it wasn't? The actual cache could be hidden on the trail side of that fence. How far away from the cache did your phone or gpsr show you were?

The direction and distance put it in the middle of a rock pile and I don't remember how far maybe 40-70 feet. Could have been another the other side of the trail but both iPhone and Cachly indicated otherwise. Other's devices apparently showed the same since Sept 2018, " between electric fences" actually only one encircling the area.

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5 minutes ago, Jayeffel said:

It is entirely possible the trail group gave permission for the fence, that didn't indicate that though. Always something popping up when geocaching.

That's the most likely explanation from the evidence you've provided.  From what I've seen of the rent-a-goat type operations in my area, if left unattended for any length of time, the goats will eat the area right down to the dirt.  Like sheep, they tend to totally denude an area of all vegetation.  I know of the ones in my area, there's a Herder that provides 24 hour attendance on the goats (apparently they are amazing escape artists as well).  Every couple to three days, they have to move the enclosure to a new area, so that the native grasses have a chance to recover.

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3 minutes ago, hzoi said:

 

 

How would the CO's input impact the reality of whether you retrieved the container and signed the log?

I have seen several times where the finder contacted the CO who okayed the find , depending circumstances. At least people can know know there is a problem of some type, the CO knows, and the reviewer has an idea of what is there. I know some say actually signing is a necessity, I tend tom lean that way, . others tend to indivcate if they are within 10 feet they found it. 

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1 minute ago, Jayeffel said:

others tend to indivcate if they are within 10 feet they found it. 

 

True.  We've got a whole forum thread about what other cachers have considered "enough" to log a find, with or without the CO's consent.

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8 minutes ago, Jayeffel said:

I have seen several times where the finder contacted the CO who okayed the find , depending circumstances.

In my area, it's only appropriate to log a Find on  apparently missing caches after leaving a throwdown ;)

 

It's interesting to read about these regional differences, even when there is clearly spelled out guidance in the Help Center for all to see.

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I just remembered that we DNF'd a cache in similar circumstances back in 2015 - there was a large cache near the park where they held the Berkshire Geobash, and it just happened to be behind an electric fence to keep in goats and donkeys when we visited.  Which was a shame, as that was the enticement we had used to keep our 2-year-old going.  The cache got disabled for two months until the goats moved on.  (Then it got trashed.)  And now there's a gadget cache at the same coordinates: Don't Shock the Goat.  That can't be a coincidence.  :laughing:

Edited by hzoi

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2 hours ago, JL_HSTRE said:

Should be disabled promptly. It may be that the goat farmer placed the fence incorrectly, either accidentally or even deliberately as part of some feud with the trail owner. It's also possible the trail ROW simply isn't as wide as the CO thought and the Reviewer didn't realize the cache had strayed on to private property. 

 

As the publishing reviewer, I was brought into the loop on this interesting example of hollow-horned ruminant encroachment, combined with electrically enhanced terrain barriers.

 

The OP has done a fine job of alerting the CO to the issue.  Let's give the CO an opportunity to evaluate the situation and then decide whether to disable or archive their cache.  I would step in if no action is taken by the owner.  I don't have the magical ability to know exactly where a cache is located relative to a fence, or the legal rights of the relevant landowners/land managers. 

 

There was no reason to worry about neighboring property owners and permission issues at the time when this cache was reviewed and published.  The cache is placed on a rail trail known to be cache-friendly, and the map clearly locates the cache within the strip of land owned or managed by the trail.

 

 

 

 

CVRT.JPG

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FWIW, there have been times where GZ has been inside a construction fence, where I logged NM with no other logs. I couldn't get to GZ because of the fence, so I couldn't even start my search, so I didn't post a Find or a DNF.

 

But it sounds like that isn't really the case here, that GZ is very close to the fence, so that the normal search radius (or perhaps even a slightly larger than normal search radius) would put the cache inside the fence.

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2 hours ago, niraD said:

FWIW, there have been times where GZ has been inside a construction fence, where I logged NM with no other logs. I couldn't get to GZ because of the fence, so I couldn't even start my search, so I didn't post a Find or a DNF.

 

But it sounds like that isn't really the case here, that GZ is very close to the fence, so that the normal search radius (or perhaps even a slightly larger than normal search radius) would put the cache inside the fence.

The cache is not near either side of the fence, it is between the two sides of the fence, maybe twenty feet at the closest. The cache was put in place [propeerly in 2012, the fence was erected since September.

 

Now to add another twist, I just saw a Physical Therapist whose husband is the President of the CVRT Association (or proper term) and he is not aware of anyone given permission to place caches. Maybe it was given and he simply was not in the loop to know. They are not opposed to them at all. She (the therapist)) found two while cleaning up parts of the trail, and put them back. Trail maintainers may have tossed one by mistake, the only one that I've looked for I've not found yet. There are about 23 more on there trail and some nearby, so one cache won't pose a problem . Hope all have a wonderful weekend. 

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31 minutes ago, Jayeffel said:

The cache is not near either side of the fence, it is between the two sides of the fence, maybe twenty feet at the closest. The cache was put in place [propeerly in 2012, the fence was erected since September.

 

Now to add another twist, I just saw a Physical Therapist whose husband is the President of the CVRT Association (or proper term) and he is not aware of anyone given permission to place caches. Maybe it was given and he simply was not in the loop to know. They are not opposed to them at all. She (the therapist)) found two while cleaning up parts of the trail, and put them back. Trail maintainers may have tossed one by mistake, the only one that I've looked for I've not found yet. There are about 23 more on there trail and some nearby, so one cache won't pose a problem . Hope all have a wonderful weekend. 

Is the president of the association aware of any permission given to fence off an area to keep goats there?

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1 hour ago, NanCycle said:

Is the president of the association aware of any permission given to fence off an area to keep goats there?

From what I gather is that they know about it but permission may not have been granted. From what the lady said it is the farmer's 21 year old son who has the goats our. So it seems they know a lot about the fencing situation. Maybe more than I need to know! Oh well, CO and coachers are notified and the reviewer knows. Not the end of the world in any case!

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6 hours ago, Keystone said:

The OP has done a fine job of alerting the CO to the issue.  Let's give the CO an opportunity to evaluate the situation and then decide whether to disable or archive their cache.  I would step in if no action is taken by the owner.  I don't have the magical ability to know exactly where a cache is located relative to a fence, or the legal rights of the relevant landowners/land managers. 

 

Agreed. In my previous post I mean the CO should disable it promptly, pending their looking into the situation. I wouldn't expect Reviewer intervention at this point. 

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I treat DNF as "Did Not Find." See but can't retrieve, in hand but can't open, can't reach GZ to make a search: none of those seem an appropriate use of a DNF; I would use a Note.

 

 

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36 minutes ago, JL_HSTRE said:

I treat DNF as "Did Not Find." See but can't retrieve, in hand but can't open, can't reach GZ to make a search: none of those seem an appropriate use of a DNF; I would use a Note.

 

 

 

To me, finding a cache is defined as not just locating it but also getting my name in the logbook. Anything short of that is therefore a DNF.

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2 hours ago, JL_HSTRE said:

I treat DNF as "Did Not Find." See but can't retrieve, in hand but can't open, can't reach GZ to make a search: none of those seem an appropriate use of a DNF; I would use a Note.

 

 

I'm with you in this type of situation. If I have located the cache but can't access it, I'll go with a write note log. Posting a DNF doesn't seem to me to be helpful to the CO if I know the cache is not missing. But I would also contact the CO directly, as the OP clearly has done.

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13 hours ago, Jayeffel said:

Wonder how many times the occurs: you look for a cache , you can see it but cannot access kit. I ran across such a cache recently. It is along a Rail to Trail. Once near the coordinates you can look to the cache and see it from the trail, may not be hidden where not is supposed to be though. It may be 50 feet to less to the cache.

 

The problem is a farmer erected a fence that encloses the cache, since the fence is electric I didn't feel it necessary to check to closely. There is a herd of goats in the enclosure so I am sure the current is on. I checked without the Rail to Trail group and was told they "know" about the electric fence on their property, It may or not be authorized by the trail owners. 

 

I sent messages to the CO and a reviewer to let them know. The cache could be moved to another nearby spot several decent places nearby. The CO appears to be a free hours away, so trips to check on it are probably few and far between. I have not contacted the farmer, hoping the Cumberland Valley Rail Trail  is in contact.  I claimed it as a find with note to the CO stating the situation.

 

It's a DNF for sure. You may have spotted it but you didn't "find it" in such a way that warrants a find, based on the guidelines. 

 

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16 hours ago, Jayeffel said:

Wonder how many times this occurs: you look for a cache , you can see it but cannot access it.

 

It happened to us today.  For the second time on the same cache.  We didn't log anything for either of the visits.

 

It's a camoed pill bottle on a wire up a tree.  We can see it.  The first time (several months ago) we had no tool and the tree is not conducive to climbing without a ladder to get you to the lowest branch.  We came back with a tool today, but our memories were off or it got moved higher in the tree (we could still see it up there) - our TOTT was still about 3 feet too short. We found the cache, but we haven't been able to retrieve it to sign the log.  So it's not a DNF,  and it's definitely not a FIND, yet!  And it's our own lack of preparedness, not anything to do with the cache, that caused us to make an attempt without a find.  We'll post a find when we do get it down, and I'll likely mention previous attempts at that time.

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I´d say hte cache is okay. It´s only the terrain rating varrying as log as the fence is there but wouldn´t change that as well. The cache ist there, can be found, can be acessed. No reason at all to report to a reviewer.

And giving log permission for coming kinda close to the cache is a strange idea in any way.

 

I own a cache by my self wich is some times fenced of for goat. Refere the following link for some impressions ;)https://coord.info/GLT1WTCP

Such an electric fence is not a huge obstacle. And not hazardous at all if unintentionally touched. It might hurt a bit, but not more than logging a DNF :D

Edited by DerDiedler

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here´s a original picutere of the discussed fence from a log of the discussed cache. No obstacle at all. Take a stick, press it dowm, step over, log. This kind of fence is ment to keep livestock in, not humans out ;)

64cc6493-3b3e-4879-9e13-16ee0d9e5dde.jpg

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53 minutes ago, DerDiedler said:

here´s a original picutere of the discussed fence from a log of the discussed cache. No obstacle at all. Take a stick, press it dowm, step over, log. This kind of fence is ment to keep livestock in, not humans out ;)

.

A person on the trail does not know if it is Trail property or private property. The  right of way on the trail does vary in width , here it is Trail property.This info is from the CVRT itself. And I have a hard time understanding that a person can justify it okay to cross a fence that is there for a reason. It is NOT accessible. 

 

I was merely making a comment where I posted this thread,I was not trying top initiate a decade long debate on what I did or didn't do.

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1 hour ago, Jayeffel said:

A person on the trail does not know if it is Trail property or private property.

Right, just like in most cases when you are out caching. Maybe even the trail is private propperty, who knows. I for my trust the CO´s with theyre cache placements as long it´s not obvioulsy wrong. And in your specifc case I would think that the permission to place the cache there is still valid, even though a temporary fence was errected to keep livestock in. For me the purpose of this fence is verry obvious. We are humans, the most developed known spezies. We can observe and upprehend a huge varaity of circumstances within a split second and then, based on that and the given knowleddge make good dicissions. My decission would be --> go in and log that cache. Others might think, uhhhh, 3 blue and white strings --> don´t cross :)

 

1 hour ago, Jayeffel said:

I was merely making a comment where I posted this thread,I was not trying top initiate a decade long debate on what I did or didn't do. 

I don´t judge you. I just told my point of view, because you were asking. But to answer more specific to your opening question: It hapens not verry frequently but some times. In some cases it´s just a trivial and temporary hindering in access. But sometimes cache access is changed in way, that the only logic consequence would be to archive the cache.

 

When you wonder about a thing and start a thread about it in a public discussion forum, it´s not unlikely to get a discussion started ;)

Edited by DerDiedler

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2 hours ago, DerDiedler said:

here´s a original picutere of the discussed fence from a log of the discussed cache. No obstacle at all. Take a stick, press it down, step over, log. This kind of fence is ment to keep livestock in, not humans out 

 

Trespassing laws: how do they work?

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9 minutes ago, JL_HSTRE said:

 

Trespassing laws: how do they work?

I don´t think we have a trespassing issue here

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1 hour ago, JL_HSTRE said:

Trespassing laws: how do they work?

 

hqdefault.jpg

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If I can't get to a cache because of a fence,  I clearly wouldn't log a find.   I'd log a note or DNF (either works) and maybe flag NM.   

 

If I come across one of those types of electric fences,  if I go over it or not depends on where it is, and what seems right.   I find those fences from time to time crossing public footpaths; in which case I hop over them.   In fact that is the only place I've seen them caching, from memory.    If the fence seemed to be fencing something private then I'd leave it.

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3 hours ago, JL_HSTRE said:

Trespassing laws: how do they work?

wdtd-logo.png

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With Rail Trails in the US, ownership of the land can be an issue. Generally, the railroads had an easement, but did not own the land. We have a local Rail Trail, and some portions of the trail are on private land, and some are owned by the trail association. Search for Rail Trail lawsuit for more information.

 

As for fences, I don't hop over them. I will go through gates, unless marked no trespassing.

 

DNF for me in the particular case, because I didn't sign the log.

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6 hours ago, JL_HSTRE said:

 

Trespassing laws: how do they work?

 

They're different in different areas (in the U.S. it may differ by state), but basically one can be prosecuted for trespassing if the owner/manager of private property has notified an individual that they do not have permission to be on that property.   For example, if the owner of a business asks someone to leave that business, and that person remains on the property they could be prosecuted for trespassing.  More commonly, if the owner of a piece of land places "No Trespassing" signs on the borders of the property, that is considered a general notification that someone can't enter the property without specific permission.   Most recently, purple paint on a fence which surrounds a piece of property, is considered synonymous with no trespassing signs in some States.   

 

One *can* be arrested and prosecuted for trespassing on public property.   The whitehouse is public property but that doesn't mean the public can enter the property without permission.

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6 hours ago, DerDiedler said:

I don´t think we have a trespassing issue here

 

Do you own a house?  If so, what's to stop someone from pitching a tent on the land that it occupies and living there?

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2 minutes ago, NYPaddleCacher said:
6 hours ago, DerDiedler said:

I don´t think we have a trespassing issue here

 

That is part of the problem, maybe the major part actually. , It apparently is on theTrail property but enclosed as private property. With no opening in the fence for access that I could see e only way to enter would be to step over the fence. It is sufficiently high enough fore that to a be a problem with my old joints and bad back. If access was made by cachers by stepping over it how long would it be before someone damaged the fence . Once started it would get worse, maybe allowing the goats to get out, Then who would be responsible? The cacher? The Trail owner The farmer? Without full knowledge of who owns the property, if permission was granted to put the fence up, I would be wary of going onto the property. Maybe it is a temporary situation which will  rectify itself once over.

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On 1/10/2019 at 2:40 PM, Jayeffel said:

Now to add another twist, I just saw a Physical Therapist

:grin: Am I the only one who thought this was funny?

 

I vote for the temporary ground clearing explanation. I saw a pitch on Shark Tank where this guy was trying to start up a business RENTING goats to people to clear areas of brush. None of the sharks went for it, but it seemed like a great idea.

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7 minutes ago, hukilaulau said:

:grin: Am I the only one who thought this was funny?

 

I vote for the temporary ground clearing explanation. I saw a pitch on Shark Tank where this guy was trying to start up a business RENTING goats to people to clear areas of brush. None of the sharks went for it, but it seemed like a great idea.

Goats are often used to clear weeds. It was not an original idea. There are people now who rent out herds of goats; even using different breeds (sizes vary) to match the job required.

Edited by Goldenwattle

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5 hours ago, hukilaulau said:

I saw a pitch on Shark Tank where this guy was trying to start up a business RENTING goats to people to clear areas of brush. None of the sharks went for it, but it seemed like a great idea.

 

There's a couple very old, owner long-gone cemeteries here that had neighbors use goats to help clear the invasive stuff through targeted grazing.

Once they got it to where it's again manageable, the goat's owner moved them on to another.

There's a "renter of goats" a few miles down the road from me.  I always wondered if all that poop is worth it.  :)

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13 hours ago, NYPaddleCacher said:

Do you own a house?

Yes I do.

13 hours ago, NYPaddleCacher said:

If so, what's to stop someone from pitching a tent on the land that it occupies and living there?

Pysicaly nothing, but common sense works pretty well. So far no unwanted campers in my backyard :lol:

20190112_104801.thumb.jpg.3c4c1777daa90a85ea1c18819f4e286f.jpg

 

18 hours ago, redsox_mark said:

.....depends on where it is, and what seems right. 

That´s well said. I don´t like like this black and white thinking. I like smart people hwo can make choices by theyre own.

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21 hours ago, redsox_mark said:

If I come across one of those types of electric fences,  if I go over it or not depends on where it is, and what seems right.   I find those fences from time to time crossing public footpaths; in which case I hop over them.   In fact that is the only place I've seen them caching, from memory.    If the fence seemed to be fencing something private then I'd leave it.

 

I guess one of the ways I'm strange is that I consider the presence of a fence to usually be a clear statement of "No Trespassing - Keep Out!" An electric fence especially. 

 

There are exceptions, but they tend to be pretty clear: pass-throughs, ladders, and/or gates clearly placed for visitor access; gates placed to keep vehicles out not pedestrians; and of course if I'm invited or otherwise have clear instructions to cross the fence.

 

Now I understand why I see fences posted with a glut of signage...

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3 hours ago, DerDiedler said:

Yes I do.

Pysicaly nothing, but common sense works pretty well. So far no unwanted campers in my backyard :lol:

20190112_104801.thumb.jpg.3c4c1777daa90a85ea1c18819f4e286f.jpg

 

That´s well said. I don´t like like this black and white thinking. I like smart people hwo can make choices by theyre own.

 

After a bit of reading, from what I understand, Germany doesn't have a criminal trespass law like in the U.S. but recognizes the notion of "private property" rights through the use of civil claims.  A person can't be arrested for trespassing but a land owner can sue someone for occupying their land without permission.   The biggest difference from what I could see is when it comes to privately owned unimproved land.  In the US, the owner of a large pasture in Texas can put a fence around it, paint the posts purple and anyone entering the land without explicit permission can be arrested for trespassing. In Germany, one can pass through unimproved land without risk of a criminal penalty.  

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