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TwistedCube

Thoughts on the new logs on the website

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Today, I discovered that now online logs have a "Great Story" button, and a "Helpful" button. I guess it's a way to "Like" a post.

 

Any thoughts on the new feature???

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10 minutes ago, TwistedCube said:

Any thoughts on the new feature???

Nope. None whatsoever. Everyone is totally indifferent to this feature. ;)

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1 hour ago, TwistedCube said:

Today, I discovered that now online logs have a "Great Story" button, and a "Helpful" button. I guess it's a way to "Like" a post.

 

Any thoughts on the new feature???

I think the feature ( which I'm not seeing yet but commented on the other thread) is a very bad idea.

 

 

Edited by Max and 99
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51 minutes ago, TwistedCube said:

Today, I discovered that now online logs have a "Great Story" button, and a "Helpful" button. I guess it's a way to "Like" a post.

 

Any thoughts on the new feature???

 

Provided the metrics on those popularity votes are not recorded and/or displayed. 

 

Provided that the log order on the cache page is not affected by the voting, it might be ok.

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37 minutes ago, K13 said:

Provided that the log order on the cache page is not affected by the voting, it might be ok.

 

I'm not seeing the "Great Story" and "Helpful" buttons on the logs for every cache, but one that I do see it on has the option to sort the logs by "Newest", "Best Story", or "Most Helpful." Pretty sure no one voted on any of the logs for that cache because switching the sort option doesn't change anything.

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The purpose of this feature was to improve log quality but you don't get notification if people liked your post unless you check each cache again...

 

But because it's not in the app I rarely use that feature.

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12 hours ago, Windstorm+ said:

 

I'm not seeing the "Great Story" and "Helpful" buttons on the logs for every cache, but one that I do see it on has the option to sort the logs by "Newest", "Best Story", or "Most Helpful." Pretty sure no one voted on any of the logs for that cache because switching the sort option doesn't change anything.

 

Would posting a spoiler photo be considered "most helpful?"

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Unless it negatively affects people, then the added value for people who use it mean it's a net positive. There are many "I don't like it" opinions, which is fine, but jumping to "get rid of it" merely because "I don't like/use it" is a little much. Still valued input for the devs though :)

 

IMO, K13 has it right

 

15 hours ago, K13 said:

Provided the metrics on those popularity votes are not recorded and/or displayed. 

 

Provided that the default log order on the cache page is not affected by the voting, it might be ok.

(emphasis mine)

 

There is no condoned, supported feature that encourages competition. There are some usability functions that could also be improved (such as the temporal nature of log votes where 'helpful' may have applied but is no longer relevant since the cache has changed a bit, etc)

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Another issue in my mind is that logs can be edited after votes are assigned. So the log you are viewing may not be the same as when it received a vote of helpful or great story.

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I can see using the "Helpful" tag for caches where the posted coordinates seem off.  A log that gives alternate coordinates, or says "found it 30 feet southeast from where my device was pointing," or even just "closer to the trail than we expected" is a log I'd appreciate being able to find quickly by changing sorting to "Most Helpful."

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1 hour ago, thebruce0 said:

Unless it negatively affects people, then the added value for people who use it mean it's a net positive. There are many "I don't like it" opinions, which is fine, but jumping to "get rid of it" merely because "I don't like/use it" is a little much. Still valued input for the devs though :)

 

IMO, K13 has it right

 

(emphasis mine)

 

There is no condoned, supported feature that encourages competition.  

 

About Friend League

 

The Friend League is a leaderboard that displays you and your friends’ geocaching activity. If you log a cache, attend an event, or perform other geocaching actions, you collect points!

 

"Collecting points" and showing where one stacks up on a leaderboard, is, IMHO encouraging competition.

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8 minutes ago, NYPaddleCacher said:
2 hours ago, thebruce0 said:

Unless it negatively affects people, then the added value for people who use it mean it's a net positive. There are many "I don't like it" opinions, which is fine, but jumping to "get rid of it" merely because "I don't like/use it" is a little much. Still valued input for the devs though :)

 

IMO, K13 has it right

 

(emphasis mine)

 

There is no condoned, supported feature that encourages competition.  

 

About Friend League

 

The Friend League is a leaderboard that displays you and your friends’ geocaching activity. If you log a cache, attend an event, or perform other geocaching actions, you collect points!

 

"Collecting points" and showing where one stacks up on a leaderboard, is, IMHO encouraging competition.

 

That has nothing to do with log voting.

There is no condoned, supported log voting feature that encourages competition.  Context.

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What's wrong with competition?

 

Competition makes the world go around.  You compete for the best job, for the ideal mate, for customers when you've got a better idea or product to sell.  I'm competing for your attention right here to make a point, short and sweet, in this sure-to-be-long discussion.  :)

I grew up in a time when kicking around a ball meant we *did* keep score, and you didn't get a trophy just for showing up.  We did okay and had fun too.

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1 hour ago, Voltgloss said:

I can see using the "Helpful" tag for caches where the posted coordinates seem off.  A log that gives alternate coordinates, or says "found it 30 feet southeast from where my device was pointing," or even just "closer to the trail than we expected" is a log I'd appreciate being able to find quickly by changing sorting to "Most Helpful."

 

It could be very helpful, unless the CO changes the coordinates 30' to the southeast. Getting back to beating my dead horse from some of the other threads on this subject, that is why I think that there are a number of log types (OM, coordinate change, etc.) that should automatically be included in a 'Most Helpful' sort. That should make it easier to spot when a log marked as helpful may no longer be helpful.

 

 

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7 minutes ago, Viajero Perdido said:

What's wrong with competition?

 

Competition makes the world go around.  You compete for the best job, for the ideal mate, for customers when you've got a better idea or product to sell.  I'm competing for your attention right here to make a point, short and sweet, in this sure-to-be-long discussion.  :)

 

Those are all each examples of exclusionary processes - that is, one person can get something that someone else can no longer get.  Competition makes the world go round when the net benefit is positive. Competition can also draw out the worst in people.  Competition inserted into an activity that is not exclusionary - finding geocaches - draws out comparison competitive behaviour that can absolutely have a negative effect on people for no general positive benefit.  That's when we have to start distinguishing healthy competition.  Yep, we can have healthy competition in geocaching; we can also have detrimental competition. Providing a way for people to vote on the best logs and be awarded for the best can absolutely draw out competitive behaviour that conflicts with the net benefit of the vote function. (for the same reason that GS avoids providing any kind of 'downvote' features on the website)

 

That said, there was the same concerned uproar when favourite points were introduced and became a measurable metric.  That they would draw out negative competitive behaviour and point gaming in order for people have the highest stats rather than actually provide meaningful information. While that does exist, the implementation of the FP system doesn't make all that worthwhile so the general net benefit is still pretty positive.

 

The concern is that if the log votes became a measurable metric, then the log content themselves would start to be gamed for points, and there's a whole LOT more information in log content that's helpful than favourite points.  If log content starts getting gamed by people so they can have bragging rights to high scores, I believe the concern is that it'll have a much worse effect on pretty much the core aspect of the digital loging feature in geocaching.

 

Right now, the net benefit of log voting is positive (ability to pull signal from the noise). Let's not make it easier for people to compete for 'score' on a function that should have nothing to do with relational scoring.

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19 hours ago, Viajero Perdido said:

What's wrong with competition?

 

Competition makes the world go around.  You compete for the best job, for the ideal mate, for customers when you've got a better idea or product to sell.  I'm competing for your attention right here to make a point, short and sweet, in this sure-to-be-long discussion.  :)

I grew up in a time when kicking around a ball meant we *did* keep score, and you didn't get a trophy just for showing up.  We did okay and had fun too.

 

So did I,  and in general I've been very competitive when I've gotten involved with some activity.    I  enjoy competition, but also enjoy choice.    I don't want everything that I do to be competitive, all the time.   What's wrong with competition is that some assume that everything is, or must be a competition.   I think I last  competed for a job about 22 years ago, but am not competing with anyone else for my current job  it and I'm sure I'll retire there.   I *chose* where I wanted to work, and I chose not to try an climb some corporate ladder.  I work in a place with a culture which fostors a  collaborative rather than competitive environment.    My ideal mate is someone that doesn't consider a relationship a competition.   My ideal mate wouldn't chose to be with someone that has a bigger wad of cash ,or a nicer car, or  bigger muscles.  If that's what someone is looking for, I'll pass, because not matter how much money I make or what kind of car I drive there's always going to be someone with a bigger wad of cash and a nicer car.

 

It's also entirely possible to enjoy an activity and have no desire to be given a participation trophy.    We can just play the game the way we want without any desire to win, or be awarded a souvenir just for playing.  

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On ‎12‎/‎17‎/‎2018 at 4:50 PM, TwistedCube said:

Today, I discovered that now online logs have a "Great Story" button, and a "Helpful" button. I guess it's a way to "Like" a post.

Any thoughts on the new feature???

 

I didn't see that here (yet).   Looked at a few caches in your state too, and the same.  Something I'm missing ?

 

I don't feel it's a big deal.   As a couple already said, things change, and "helpful" or similar may change with time.

When "helpful" no longer applies, is removal gonna be part of a CO's maintenance ?   

 I can't see that working well...

 

When "great story" is really just another cut n paste lengthy mash of bull for a third-party stat, can I have a "can't believe I waste the time..." option ?      ;)

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2 minutes ago, cerberus1 said:

 

I didn't see that here (yet).   Looked at a few caches in your state too, and the same.  Something I'm missing ?

 

I don't feel it's a big deal.   As a couple already said, things change, and "helpful" or similar may change with time.

When "helpful" no longer applies, is removal gonna be part of a CO's maintenance ?   

 I can't see that working well...

 

When "great story" is really just another cut n paste lengthy mash of bull for a third-party stat, can I have a "can't believe I waste the time..." option ?      ;)

:D Come to find out, I was looking at Canadian caches when I saw the new feature. I think it may not have come out in America yet. 

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A "helpful" might work when a cache has been replaced, and one writes "this regular is now a tape-wrapped soda bottle you have to fish the log from".

Now I have to scan many logs to see similar on an average day (and lately while attempting to drop off ornaments in caches already found).

 

Of course if it was a throwdown or temp, and later OM by the CO, that "helpful" wouldn't mean anything anymore.

 -  But it will still keep showing up as helpful ?   To who ?

 

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To the OP's question, I have two thoughts on this feature. And, I'm going to answer a question with two questions (and a lot of inner thoughts). :grin:

-----

First, I wonder just how many cachers will be pressing the Great Story or Helpful buttons? Great Story can be checked before or after attempting to find the cache. But Helpful implies that you have attempted to find the cache, and have real life experience to be able to know that this log entry is helpful. Therefore, you would need to remember that a log entry was actually helpful, and go back, while you are logging your find, (or DNF) and mark the other log as helpful. I don't think that most cachers are going to do that.

 

I know that some cachers will mark a log as Helpful, because they assume that the log is helpful. If this is done, then other cachers will need to take the Helpful tag with a grain of salt. The use of the Helpful button could be limited to cachers that have already posted a log to the cache. I don't like idea, it just forces a cacher to post a dummy WN to bypass that limitation.

-----

My second this is; GS has gone to the expense of adding this feature. Debating whether anyone wants or will use this feature is moot, as I don't think GS is going to undo the work that they did. So, I believe that this is a feature that will be included in the web site going forward. Therefore, I am going to put my energy into ways to make this feature as useful to as many people as possible. 

 

I don't have a strong opinion on the Great Story button, as I doubt I would use it. I agree that there should not be a visible counter, why create another numbers game. Based on that, the sort order should remain date order, to prevent another numbers game; such as the most number of first place Great Story logs.

 

As for the Helpful button, I could see myself using this. But, as has been pointed out by a number of people, circumstances can change whether or not a log is still helpful. So, my question is; what would it take for Helpful to be helpful to me? IMO, relying of the deletion of the Helpful flag is a non-starter. (That does not mean that a CO shouldn't have the option of deleting the Helpful flag, they should.) There are a number of cases where a CO will not remove them (doesn't care, retired from geocaching, dead, etc.). I am assuming that almost every log type should be able to be marked as helpful. The only log types where this really doesn't make sense are Attended logs on events. There may be a few others. Knowing that logs marked as Helpful may no longer be helpful, and knowing that I will need to manually determine which Helpful logs are still helpful, what other information will help me make this determination? I came up with the idea of automatically including select log types (OM, Announcement, WN by CO, etc.) in the Helpful filter.

-----

 

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On 12/19/2018 at 11:47 AM, Wet Pancake Touring Club said:

My second this is; GS has gone to the expense of adding this feature. Debating whether anyone wants or will use this feature is moot, as I don't think GS is going to undo the work that they did.

I don't agree with this approach.

The feature is still in a test mode.  If cachers don't think it's a good feature, then I wouldn't suggest forcing themselves to make it useful.  I don't like the feature, for various reasons that I've mentioned in the other threads about this same topic, and so I am not going to use it.  GS is not all-in with these log flags, as they haven't yet developed a way to integrate them into the app.  I would guess that if their 'test' reveals that the flags are desired by customers, then they would have to spend development time to get the feature into the app.  Personally, I don't think it's worth the developers' time to add this feature to the app.

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I can’t find this feature on any of the logs, new or old on any of the caches in Bahrain. Is it just being tested in a certain location? Could anyone provide a link to a cache page where I can see the new features.

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2 hours ago, tyzack4 said:

Is it just being tested in a certain location? Could anyone provide a link to a cache page where I can see the new features.

Yes.

 

https://coord.info/GC691JB

 

 

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On 1/5/2019 at 3:23 AM, MartyBartfast said:

Great example of just how worthless this log voting really is - The only log that has received any votes,  both Great Story and Helpful....  TFTC.

 

LOL

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On 1/5/2019 at 4:23 AM, MartyBartfast said:

This is why the entire idea of voting on logs is asinine.

 

STOP THIS NOW!!

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4 hours ago, dixiedawn said:

Great example of just how worthless this log voting really is - The only log that has received any votes,  both Great Story and Helpful....  TFTC.

 

LOL

 

Maybe other cachers will see that a log with emojis has a lot of votes and will copy it.  So then we'll have more logs with emojis in them.  Yay!  <sarcasm>

 

image.png.0a80f2cd8f912e61c1e5fcc012798d83.png

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14 minutes ago, noncentric said:

 

Maybe other cachers will see that a log with emojis has a lot of votes and will copy it.  So then we'll have more logs with emojis in them.  Yay!  <sarcasm>

 

image.png.0a80f2cd8f912e61c1e5fcc012798d83.png

Nooooooooooooooooooooo😱😭😵🕺👇💣

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14 hours ago, noncentric said:

 

Maybe other cachers will see that a log with emojis has a lot of votes and will copy it.  So then we'll have more logs with emojis in them.  Yay!  <sarcasm>

 

image.png.0a80f2cd8f912e61c1e5fcc012798d83.png

 

I’m guessing that most of those votes have been added by people from this forum checking to see how it works.  I know I clicked on ‘Great story’ to see what happened ... and then again to remove my vote.

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10 minutes ago, IceColdUK said:

I’m guessing that most of those votes have been added by people from this forum checking to see how it works.  I know I clicked on ‘Great story’ to see what happened ... and then again to remove my vote.

That's at least partly true.  I just picked that cache at random from the Norway map, I didn't even look at the votes at that point. 

When @dixiedawn replied to my post I checked and that log had 2 votes, I inadvertently added another but removed it again, looks like someone else has also added votes since I posted it.

 

I don't think we can infer anything about the usefulness of the feature from the votes on any individual cache in the still very early days of the testing.

 

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I think GS will handle this new feature the same way like in the forums. There's now an option to flag a posting as funny, helpful etc.. It's just an additional information for those who are interested in that kind of stuff and it doesn't affect the order in which postings are displayed. If they add an option to sort logs by "most helpful" or "great stories" I don't see any harm. If you like it, use it, if you don't like it, ignore it.

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7 minutes ago, Rebore said:

If they add an option to sort logs by "most helpful" or "great stories" I don't see any harm. If you like it, use it, if you don't like it, ignore it.

I've only seen this because of this thread, but my immediate impression was that the buttons at the bottom of each and ever log entry took up a lot of vertical space when I was looking through the logs. That space is still wasted even if I ignore the pointless feature.

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3 minutes ago, dprovan said:

I've only seen this because of this thread, but my immediate impression was that the buttons at the bottom of each and ever log entry took up a lot of vertical space when I was looking through the logs. That space is still wasted even if I ignore the pointless feature.

Fair point, the layout could surely be optimized.

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If there is an option to vote up, there should also be an option to vote down, like reddit, imgur, etc.  For every instance of the idiotic vote, there needs to be a chance of a vote of reason. If some idiot thinks TFTC is a great story, some of us need to be able to correct this.

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2 hours ago, K13 said:

If there is an option to vote up, there should also be an option to vote down, like reddit, imgur, etc.  For every instance of the idiotic vote, there needs to be a chance of a vote of reason. If some idiot thinks TFTC is a great story, some of us need to be able to correct this.

Oh, you can't have down votes, they might hurt someone feelings and this is a positive activity, not something that displays anything negative. :ph34r:

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7 hours ago, Rebore said:

If they add an option to sort logs by "most helpful" or "great stories" I don't see any harm.

When I read this part of your post, it sounded like you didn't realize that the option to sort already exists. So, just wanted to mention that sorting by the votes is designed into this feature and potential negative impacts of the sorting have been mentioned in the various threads about this feature.

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1 hour ago, noncentric said:

you didn't realize that the option to sort already exists.

Where is it? I also don't see this option.

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7 minutes ago, Hynz said:

Where is it? I also don't see this option.

 

At the top of the logs listing:

image.png.f0f5410f244d64e0356f369231375d56.png

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Posted (edited)
40 minutes ago, noncentric said:

 

At the top of the logs listing:

image.png.f0f5410f244d64e0356f369231375d56.png

 

Not visible on my side. Checked with Firefox, Vivaldi, Opera and InternetExplorer 11.

 

5a947113-8963-43eb-bc9a-1f217fb9ff43.png.301ab9c8a8963bbe8985eeffed8e2384.png

 

Edited by Hynz
add picture

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13 minutes ago, Hynz said:

 

Not visible on my side. Checked with Firefox, Vivaldi, Opera and InternetExplorer 11.

 

5a947113-8963-43eb-bc9a-1f217fb9ff43.png.301ab9c8a8963bbe8985eeffed8e2384.png

 

Seems that is because you are a Basic Member. I didn't realize at first that the sorting option was for PM's only, but it seems to be the case.

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31 minutes ago, noncentric said:

Seems that is because you are a Basic Member. I didn't realize at first that the sorting option was for PM's only, but it seems to be the case.

Thanks. I faintly remember that once I already saw the option (I'm an on and off PM).

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