Mystery cache 2 mile rule change

[+Team DEMP]

Anyone know when the rule changed that required the final for a Mystery cache to be within 2 miles of the posted coordinates?

Thanks in advance, 

[+niraD]

36 minutes ago, Team DEMP said:

Anyone know when the rule changed that required the final for a Mystery cache to be within 2 miles of the posted coordinates?

Thanks in advance, 

When I started in 2006, the guidelines said: "Unless a good reason otherwise can be provided, the posted coordinates should be no more than 1-2 miles away from the true cache location."

 

It looks like the guidelines were restructured in 2011, at which point they said, "The posted coordinates should be no more than 1-2 miles (2-3 km) away from the true cache location."

 

And in 2015 they were restructured again, at which point they said, "Final coordinates must be less than 2 miles (3.2 km) from the posted coordinates."

 

But what I cannot say is when the interpretation of the guidelines for multi-stage puzzle caches changed, requiring the posted coordinates to be within 2 miles of the final, rather than within 2 miles of the first physical stage.

[+Isonzo Karst]

It was in place the first time I submitted a Mystery, February 2004. Probably part of the  guideline revision of  November 2003.

[+niraD]

Also, around the time that I started in 2006, there were puzzle caches hidden that were further than 2 miles from the posted coordinates when there was a good reason for it. And as recently as 2011, there were puzzle caches hidden that were further than 2 miles from the posted coordinates, although the CO had to make special arrangements with Groundspeak.

[+Touchstone]

I'd also go with the 2003 time frame, not long after I got started, but as niraD pointed out correctly, some flexibility was allowed if a good reason was given.  I don't believe such flexibility is allowed these days.    Like Proximity, some things have been tightened up in the name of consistency, which is a recurring theme on these Forum.

[+IceColdUK]

It was a guideline for years; it became a rule almost a year ago (5 December 2017).

 

 

[+barefootguru]

My TLDR of the above, correct/copy as desired:

 

Mystery (not multi) final:

Around 2003 ‘Unless a good reason otherwise can be provided, the posted coordinates should be no more than 1-2 miles away from the true cache location.’

2011 ‘The posted coordinates should be no more than 1-2 miles (2-3 km) away from the true cache location.’

2015 ‘Final coordinates must be less than 2 miles (3.2 km) from the posted coordinates.’

2017-12-05 enforced when editing cache page

[+Oxford Stone]

The 2 "miles away" ones I know about (in Oxord, UK) were put out in 2004 and 2005. No particular reason for the distance, other than putting the original icon in the city where it gets noticed? Both epic caches as it happens. GCNN7R, GCKF0M.

I have a multi which requires visits to London and Paris (and I'm told it's inspired one in the opposite direction) - I hope they never change the rule on multis as it leaves some intriguing possibilities.

[+arisoft]

1 hour ago, Oxford Stone said:

I hope they never change the rule on multis as it leaves some intriguing possibilities.

 

Multi-caches are allowed to go longer because you must visit at the posted coordinates. Mystery caches may have bogus coordinates which are not related to the cache at all. In many cases one could publish a field puzzle as a multi-cache if the cache can be found by reading the cache page and following the instructions in the field.

[+IceColdUK]

10 hours ago, barefootguru said:

2017-12-05 enforced when editing cache page

 

For existing, as well as new, caches.  Not that I’m bitter...

[+TheLimeCat]

On 11/26/2018 at 6:08 AM, IceColdUK said:

 

For existing, as well as new, caches.  Not that I’m bitter...

I know this is a bit off-topic, but I've never understood Groundspeak's practice of locking cache owners out of their own grandfathered caches. Why not just archive them at that point? Part of cache maintenance is updating the cache page when needed. In my eyes, this is like telling a cacher "you are no longer allowed to repair, replace, or otherwise maintain your cache until it is left in such poor condition as to be completely worthless as a geocache". Honestly, it's just a slap in the face to all of those folks who had carefully curated challenge listings. Why worsen a cache's quality in this way? This seems to run counter to the entire system put in place to keep cacher's accountable for the health of their caches. 

 

For the on-topic bit: I found a mystery placed in February 2004 that was 20+ miles from the posted coordinates. There was no good reason for this except that the bogus coordinates wound up being N 47° 00.000' W 122° 00.000'. While this is sort of neat, I can't see how it would get past a reviewer with even the most lenient restrictions in place. This cache has since been archived. A new development went in where one of the waypoints had been and although it never obstructed the final, the cache was eventually archived. Strange that when terrain changes drastically, and a cache owner is unable to indicate this change within the listing, the cache has to be archived. 

[+noncentric]

21 minutes ago, TheLimeCat said:

I know this is a bit off-topic, but I've never understood Groundspeak's practice of locking cache owners out of their own grandfathered caches. Why not just archive them at that point? Part of cache maintenance is updating the cache page when needed. In my eyes, this is like telling a cacher "you are no longer allowed to repair, replace, or otherwise maintain your cache until it is left in such poor condition as to be completely worthless as a geocache". Honestly, it's just a slap in the face to all of those folks who had carefully curated challenge listings. Why worsen a cache's quality in this way? This seems to run counter to the entire system put in place to keep cacher's accountable for the health of their caches. 

 

For the on-topic bit: I found a mystery placed in February 2004 that was 20+ miles from the posted coordinates. There was no good reason for this except that the bogus coordinates wound up being N 47° 00.000' W 122° 00.000'. While this is sort of neat, I can't see how it would get past a reviewer with even the most lenient restrictions in place. This cache has since been archived. A new development went in where one of the waypoints had been and although it never obstructed the final, the cache was eventually archived. Strange that when terrain changes drastically, and a cache owner is unable to indicate this change within the listing, the cache has to be archived. 

 

Well, if CO's need to update their cache page, then they could move the bogus coords to be within 2 miles of the final coords.  It's not as though CO's are "locked out" of editing their listings, they'd just have to make their bogus coords comply with the 2-mile rule.

[+barefootjeff]

4 minutes ago, noncentric said:

 

Well, if CO's need to update their cache page, then they could move the bogus coords to be within 2 miles of the final coords.  It's not as though CO's are "locked out" of editing their listings, they'd just have to make their bogus coords comply with the 2-mile rule.

 

From the discussion back when the editing change was introduced, I think that's only possible if the move is less than 161 metres.

[+TheLimeCat]

5 minutes ago, noncentric said:

 

Well, if CO's need to update their cache page, then they could move the bogus coords to be within 2 miles of the final coords.  It's not as though CO's are "locked out" of editing their listings, they'd just have to make their bogus coords comply with the 2-mile rule.

My focus was mainly on old challenge listings, hence the "off-topic" preface. You are completely correct of course, but I wonder why they have to complicate this by holding the cache page hostage until the cache owner makes this change of their own accord rather than just politely requesting that they make the change. I don't own a grandfathered puzzle cache myself, but I'm not even able to say definitively that a CO would be able to change the coordinates themselves in the first place. 

[+noncentric]

1 hour ago, barefootjeff said:

From the discussion back when the editing change was introduced, I think that's only possible if the move is less than 161 metres.

Hhmmm. It seems odd that moving the coords for a Virtual waypoint, like the bogus coords, would be restricted - but if it is, then the CO could ask a Reviewer to make the move. 

 

 

1 hour ago, TheLimeCat said:

My focus was mainly on old challenge listings, hence the "off-topic" preface. You are completely correct of course, but I wonder why they have to complicate this by holding the cache page hostage until the cache owner makes this change of their own accord rather than just politely requesting that they make the change. I don't own a grandfathered puzzle cache myself, but I'm not even able to say definitively that a CO would be able to change the coordinates themselves in the first place. 

I guess I'm not understanding the implication that the cache page is "held hostage" - I mean, if the CO doesn't make the change, then the cache page can still exist as normal.  It's only when/if the CO wants to edit the listing when the 2-mile restriction is enforced. That's how I understood it to work.

 

[+The Jester]

1 hour ago, noncentric said:

2 hours ago, TheLimeCat said:

My focus was mainly on old challenge listings, hence the "off-topic" preface. You are completely correct of course, but I wonder why they have to complicate this by holding the cache page hostage until the cache owner makes this change of their own accord rather than just politely requesting that they make the change. I don't own a grandfathered puzzle cache myself, but I'm not even able to say definitively that a CO would be able to change the coordinates themselves in the first place. 

I guess I'm not understanding the implication that the cache page is "held hostage" - I mean, if the CO doesn't make the change, then the cache page can still exist as normal.  It's only when/if the CO wants to edit the listing when the 2-mile restriction is enforced. That's how I understood it to work.

 

I have an old Challenge Cache that is more than 2 miles from the listed co-ords (the listed co-ords are an average of the needed caches, but there is no place within two miles to place a cache).  For several months I wasn't able to update the list of cachers working the Challenge on the page, but just recently that ability came back.  So now I can keep a current list of cachers and their find totals on the page.

[+IceColdUK]

5 hours ago, The Jester said:

I have an old Challenge Cache that is more than 2 miles from the listed co-ords (the listed co-ords are an average of the needed caches, but there is no place within two miles to place a cache).  For several months I wasn't able to update the list of cachers working the Challenge on the page, but just recently that ability came back.  So now I can keep a current list of cachers and their find totals on the page.

 

Thanks for this Jester.  You're right, it is now one again possible to update my old >2 mile mystery listings without moving any coordinates.  Very happy. :-)