Pizza Restaurants - National vs Regional

[+Max and 99]

Since my search can't find the previous thread on this subject, I'm posting a new one. Sorry.

 

I have a question about Pizza Restaurants. Except for Pizza Hut and Domino's under National Restaurants, the only option appears to be Pizza Shops Regional Chains or Independent Pizza Restaurants.

 

I suspect this may be because the chances of adding a commercial category are slim to none, and any pizza places that aren't Independent are lumped into the Regional category. 

 

Marco's Pizza Restaurants are located in 35 states and 4 countries. About 1,000 locations. Do you think that Regional will accept them?

[Bon Echo]

Looking at the category description and what has been approved (as well as some chains that are obviously lacking, Little Ceasers is one that comes to my mind), my guess would be no.. But why no ask them? Most of the officers logged in today, so I think you would get a response if you asked. 

[+Max and 99]

42 minutes ago, Bon Echo said:

Looking at the category description and what has been approved (as well as some chains that are obviously lacking, Little Ceasers is one that comes to my mind), my guess would be no.. But why no ask them? Most of the officers logged in today, so I think you would get a response if you asked. 

 I think the community could benefit from this conversation so I thought the forum was a good choice as opposed to a conversation between an officer and myself. I'll ask one to chime in.

[+Max and 99]

59 minutes ago, Bon Echo said:

Looking at the category description and what has been approved (as well as some chains that are obviously lacking, Little Ceasers is one that comes to my mind), my guess would be no.. But why no ask them? Most of the officers logged in today, so I think you would get a response if you asked. 

I'm sure you're right. By definition it doesn't fit since it's a national chain, but there are only two national pizza chains represented. Looks like I can't waymark this national chain.

[Bon Echo]

16 minutes ago, Max and 99 said:

 I think the community could benefit from this conversation so I thought the forum was a good choice as opposed to a conversation between an officer and myself. I'll ask one to chime in.

Yep, and it does show an obvious gap in terms of categories. Meets the 4 core requirements as far as I'm concerned, but I also really like pizza.

But I wonder if the "Pizza Shops - Regional Chains" category would consider changing to "Pizza Shops - Regional and National Chains"

[+Max and 99]

49 minutes ago, Bon Echo said:

Yep, and it does show an obvious gap in terms of categories. Meets the 4 core requirements as far as I'm concerned, but I also really like pizza.

But I wonder if the "Pizza Shops - Regional Chains" category would consider changing to "Pizza Shops - Regional and National Chains"

A very good suggestion!

[+PISA-caching]

In a global hobby like Waymarking, terms like "regional" and "chain" deserve a precise definition. From my Austrian point of view, I once relied on the following definition:

 

3. Chains outside Canada and the United States
* Franchises or chains that are confined to one country will be considered "regional" for the purposes of this category.
* Franchises or chains that have outlets in more than one country may be considered regional if it is a relatively small group and still confined a small, well-defined area. These will be evaluated on a case by case basis.

 

I tried to add a waymark to the "Burger Shops - Regional Chains" category. The Burger "chain" in question has 5 shops in 2 Austrian cities so far. In my small Austrian world, every business with more than 3 locations is a chain, but the waymark was denied, because "Five locations in just two cities would not be considered regional for this category at this time.". No problem, but the officer (who didn't add his/her name), didn't tell me what exactly the problem is. Does it need more than 5 shops to form a chain and if yes, what is the minimum number? Or are 2 cities not enough to call it regional? In my case, I posted the waymark to the "Vegetarian Eateries" category instead, because they serve vegetarien burgers, but if I ever want to post a waymark in one of the other Regional Chains categories, it would help to have a better idea of what the exact criteria are.

Edited November 6, 2018 by PISA-caching

[+elyob]

2 hours ago, PISA-caching said:

In a global hobby like Waymarking, terms like "regional" and "chain" deserve a precise definition. From my Austrian point of view, I once relied on the following definition:

 

3. Chains outside Canada and the United States
* Franchises or chains that are confined to one country will be considered "regional" for the purposes of this category.
* Franchises or chains that have outlets in more than one country may be considered regional if it is a relatively small group and still confined a small, well-defined area. These will be evaluated on a case by case basis.

 

I tried to add a waymark to the "Burger Shops - Regional Chains" category. The Burger "chain" in question has 5 shops in 2 Austrian cities so far. In my small Austrian world, every business with more than 3 locations is a chain, but the waymark was denied, because "Five locations in just two cities would not be considered regional for this category at this time.". No problem, but the officer (who didn't add his/her name), didn't tell me what exactly the problem is. Does is need more than 5 shops to form a chain and if yes, what is the minimum number? Or are 2 cities not enough to call it regional? In my case, I posted the waymark to the "Vegetarian Eateries" category instead, because they serve vegetarien burgers, but if I ever want to post a waymark in one of the other Regional Chains categories, it would help to have a better idea of what the exact criteria are.

 

That is a great way to decline a waymark without offering anything constructive.  The category description defines Regional (outside of Canada and the US) as being confined to one country.

Edited November 5, 2018 by elyob

[+Max and 99]

2 hours ago, PISA-caching said:

In a global hobby like Waymarking, terms like "regional" and "chain" deserve a precise definition. From my Austrian point of view, I once relied on the following definition:

 

3. Chains outside Canada and the United States
* Franchises or chains that are confined to one country will be considered "regional" for the purposes of this category.
* Franchises or chains that have outlets in more than one country may be considered regional if it is a relatively small group and still confined a small, well-defined area. These will be evaluated on a case by case basis.

 

I tried to add a waymark to the "Burger Shops - Regional Chains" category. The Burger "chain" in question has 5 shops in 2 Austrian cities so far. In my small Austrian world, every business with more than 3 locations is a chain, but the waymark was denied, because "Five locations in just two cities would not be considered regional for this category at this time.". No problem, but the officer (who didn't add his/her name), didn't tell me what exactly the problem is. Does is need more than 5 shops to form a chain and if yes, what is the minimum number? Or are 2 cities not enough to call it regional? In my case, I posted the waymark to the "Vegetarian Eateries" category instead, because they serve vegetarien burgers, but if I ever want to post a waymark in one of the other Regional Chains categories, it would help to have a better idea of what the exact criteria are.

Vegetarian eateries? There's hardly a burger chain out there that doesn't offer a vegetarian patty, but that doesn't meet the criteria for a vegetarian restaurant. 

But I sure think your waymark would fit the Regional Chains burger category!

 

[+iconions]

4 hours ago, PISA-caching said:

In a global hobby like Waymarking, terms like "regional" and "chain" deserve a precise definition. From my Austrian point of view, I once relied on the following definition:

 

3. Chains outside Canada and the United States
* Franchises or chains that are confined to one country will be considered "regional" for the purposes of this category.
* Franchises or chains that have outlets in more than one country may be considered regional if it is a relatively small group and still confined a small, well-defined area. These will be evaluated on a case by case basis.

 

I tried to add a waymark to the "Burger Shops - Regional Chains" category. The Burger "chain" in question has 5 shops in 2 Austrian cities so far. In my small Austrian world, every business with more than 3 locations is a chain, but the waymark was denied, because "Five locations in just two cities would not be considered regional for this category at this time.". No problem, but the officer (who didn't add his/her name), didn't tell me what exactly the problem is. Does is need more than 5 shops to form a chain and if yes, what is the minimum number? Or are 2 cities not enough to call it regional? In my case, I posted the waymark to the "Vegetarian Eateries" category instead, because they serve vegetarien burgers, but if I ever want to post a waymark in one of the other Regional Chains categories, it would help to have a better idea of what the exact criteria are.

I was the one who denied that waymark.  Please PISA-caching, continue with the rest of the explanation of your waymark and tell the rest of the story.  4 of those locations were in Vienna and the single other location was Graz  - not hardly a "regional" chain.  Regional means just that - regional.  Just getting a second city isn't a "regional" presence.  If you are going to call someone out, please make sure you give all of the story.   

 

elyob, really?  I would be careful making comments on things you have NO idea what you are talking about.  Here are the requirements:

* Franchises or chains that are confined to one country will be considered "regional" for the purposes of this category.   It was considered.
* Franchises or chains that have outlets in more than one country may be considered regional if it is a relatively small group and still confined a small, well-defined area. These will be evaluated on a case by case basis. (emphasis mine)
4 in one city and 1 in another isn't a small, well defined area.  It's a burger idea that may become regional, it isn't at this point.  Now, if that German location finally opens, let's talk - it would then be eligible, or if another Austrian location opens, or even another in Graz.  Until then, though, SEE THAT LAST SENTENCE!!!!!!!!!!!

My definition, as an officer of regional:.  "An established chain, usually franchised, that has a wide spread footprint in one large state or many states.  Too many states and international then makes it a "National" chain."

Now, with the Burgers, Five Guys started as "regional" it has since gone "national", however we will still accept Five Guys.  In the Pizza category.  I would say that Pizza Hut, Papa John's, Domino's, Little Caesar's, and Marco's are national.

 

Per the category description -   

What qualifies as a REGIONAL franchise or chain: 

1. Any franchise or chain already on the list! 

As new waymarks are submitted, that franchise/chain will be added to the variable drop-down list and we'll try to keep the list here updated. 

No, Marco's Pizza does not fit here because it isn't on the list.

2. Basic definition for the United States and Canada 

* In general a chain should have outlets in several states, although in some cases they may be confined to one large state.  No, doesn't fit here because it is in LOTS of states.
* If a group of businesses is family owned, or has only a few outlets in a smaller geographic area, then it is probably in independent shop.  No, it is definitely NOT independent.
* The line between REGIONAL and NATIONAL is more difficult to draw. We will try to be flexible on this, but in general we will follow these guidelines:
- Outlets in fewer than 20 states - Marco's Pizza has MORE than 20 states and is in 2 International Countries.
- Confined to a geographic region such as west coast, east coast, midwest or south.  No, it has a large presence in the South, in Texas, in the upper MIDWEST, and starting to have a large presence in California and the West. 
(usually there will be a concentration in the original city or state, dispersed outward. 

 

So to answer the original question, the answer is no, Marco Pizza would NOT be regional, It is national.   

 

As far as changing the category - you will need to contact the category owner who just happens to be inactive.  I've tried to get a new owner, but I was blocked. 
Also, changing category descriptions like that caused a hew and cry when the Solar group did it - probably not going to happen.  My suggestion - try to start a new category, if you can, for these national chains.

 

This could have been discussed with an email to me privately which you have done many times in the past.  You did seem more than willing, however, to drag me onto this forum discussion when none of the officers were getting involved.  Really not cool.  Forum discussions are an optional activity - if you really wanted an answer, contact me directly, don't try to call me out here.  But, by, sending this to the forums, however, I have had to defend myself on a denial on a totally unrelated issue, which I am more that willing to do, and to tell someone else to mind their own effing business as they are getting involved into something where they didn't have all of the facts.  Ah well, another day of Waymarking.

 

[+Max and 99]

8 minutes ago, iconions said:

I was the one who denied that waymark.  Please PISA-caching, continue with the rest of the explanation of your waymark and tell the rest of the story.  4 of those locations were in Vienna and the single other location was Graz  - not hardly a "regional" chain.  Regional means just that - regional.  Just getting a second city isn't a "regional" presence.  If you are going to call someone out, please make sure you give all of the story.   

 

elyob, really?  I would be careful making comments on things you have NO idea what you are talking about.  Here are the requirements:

* Franchises or chains that are confined to one country will be considered "regional" for the purposes of this category.   It was considered.
* Franchises or chains that have outlets in more than one country may be considered regional if it is a relatively small group and still confined a small, well-defined area. These will be evaluated on a case by case basis. (emphasis mine)
4 in one city and 1 in another isn't a small, well defined area.  It's a burger idea that may become regional, it isn't at this point.  Now, if that German location finally opens, let's talk - it would then be eligible, or if another Austrian location opens, or even another in Graz.  Until then, though, SEE THAT LAST SENTENCE!!!!!!!!!!!

My definition, as an officer of regional:.  "An established chain, usually franchised, that has a wide spread footprint in one large state or many states.  Too many states and international then makes it a "National" chain."

Now, with the Burgers, Five Guys started as "regional" it has since gone "national", however we will still accept Five Guys.  In the Pizza category.  I would say that Pizza Hut, Papa John's, Domino's, Little Caesar's, and Marco's are national.

 

Per the category description -   

What qualifies as a REGIONAL franchise or chain: 

1. Any franchise or chain already on the list! 

As new waymarks are submitted, that franchise/chain will be added to the variable drop-down list and we'll try to keep the list here updated. 

No, Marco's Pizza does not fit here because it isn't on the list.

2. Basic definition for the United States and Canada 

* In general a chain should have outlets in several states, although in some cases they may be confined to one large state.  No, doesn't fit here because it is in LOTS of states.
* If a group of businesses is family owned, or has only a few outlets in a smaller geographic area, then it is probably in independent shop.  No, it is definitely NOT independent.
* The line between REGIONAL and NATIONAL is more difficult to draw. We will try to be flexible on this, but in general we will follow these guidelines:
- Outlets in fewer than 20 states - Marco's Pizza has MORE than 20 states and is in 2 International Countries.
- Confined to a geographic region such as west coast, east coast, midwest or south.  No, it has a large presence in the South, in Texas, in the upper MIDWEST, and starting to have a large presence in California and the West. 
(usually there will be a concentration in the original city or state, dispersed outward. 

 

So to answer the original question, the answer is no, Marco Pizza would NOT be regional, It is national.   

 

As far as changing the category - you will need to contact the category owner who just happens to be inactive.  I've tried to get a new owner, but I was blocked. 
Also, changing category descriptions like that caused a hew and cry when the Solar group did it - probably not going to happen.  My suggestion - try to start a new category, if you can, for these national chains.

 

This could have been discussed with an email to me privately which you have done many times in the past.  You did seem more than willing, however, to drag me onto this forum discussion when none of the officers were getting involved.  Really not cool.  Forum discussions are an optional activity - if you really wanted an answer, contact me directly, don't try to call me out here.  But, by, sending this to the forums, however, I have had to defend myself on a denial on a totally unrelated issue, which I am more that willing to do, and to tell someone else to mind their own effing business as they are getting involved into something where they didn't have all of the facts.  Ah well, another day of Waymarking.

 

Did you not post a private message someone sent you to the forums?  It's not private if you post it for everyone to see. 

 

I think the forums is a perfect place for this discussion on pizza restaurants, which is why I asked you to chime in to clarify some confusion.  I saw no attacks or anyone calling anyone else out until your post. Not cool, dude.

[+iconions]

21 hours ago, Bon Echo said:

Looking at the category description and what has been approved (as well as some chains that are obviously lacking, Little Ceasers is one that comes to my mind), my guess would be no.. But why no ask them? Most of the officers logged in today, so I think you would get a response if you asked. 

...and this would have been the correct and mature thing to do.  Funny thing, the waymarker had the answer, however, by dragging this "controversy" here to the forums, I got ripped (to be fair they didn't know it was me) by two waymarkers, one because they told half they story about their waymark and the other because they believed the half a story and only looked those category requirements that they wanted to look at and overlook those that were germane.  

 

[+iconions]

2 minutes ago, Max and 99 said:

Did you not post a private message someone sent you to the forums?  It's not private if you post it for everyone to see. 

 

I think the forums is a perfect place for this discussion on pizza restaurants, which is why I asked you to chime in to clarify some confusion.  I saw no attacks or anyone calling anyone else out until your post. Not cool, dude.

Go look at Pisa-caching and elyob's post and get back to me.  You took the time to email me on get on the forums, you could have taking that same time to email me the same question, which by the way you answered yourself.  The only confusion was what you were trying to stir up.   The only thing not cool is you trying to stir the pot when Bon Echo had the best suggestion to just get a hold of an officer in the first place.  

[+Max and 99]

1 minute ago, iconions said:

Go look at Pisa-caching and elyob's post and get back to me.  You took the time to email me on get on the forums, you could have taking that same time to email me the same question, which by the way you answered yourself.  The only confusion was what you were trying to stir up.   The only thing not cool is you trying to stir the pot when Bon Echo had the best suggestion to just get a hold of an officer in the first place.  

I think the forums was the perfect place to get clarification on the category for the Waymarking community. Not cool to post a private message on the forums. 

[+iconions]

2 hours ago, Max and 99 said:

I think the forums was the perfect place to get clarification on the category for the Waymarking community. Not cool to post a private message on the forums. 

Why is it not cool?  You decided it was SO important that I answer this that you had to contact me directly.  Did you want everyone to think that I stumbled into this cluster of a topic all by myself?  Nope - if it was so important that the entire Waymarking community know about this clarification, then it is also just important to know that you contacted me directly to jump on this topic to make the clarification.  You can't have it both ways.  If you are going to make this topic public, then EVERYTHING is going to be public.  If you wanted a private conversation, then you should have not started this thread, or better still, not email me to make the clarification.  If you wanted privacy, you should have emailed me or another officer directly, in private, like is usually done.  Besides, you even stated you were going to have an officer chime in. Well, you revealed that conversation first now, didn't you?

 

 PISA-caching brought up a denial I made in a different category, albeit somewhat related, FIRST.  At that point, he stated the entire denial statement.  elyob then chirped in without knowing the entire situation and, as usual with these kinds of things, only taking the parts of the category description that fit.  Again, posting first.  All I did was show both of them EXACTLY, with the category description why the denial was made.  They are both going to come on here later, I predict, read or only understand a portion of what I wrote, and totally get pissed off.  Again, they brought it up, and once brought up, it can be referred to later on.  

 

You know, seriously and in all honesty, I really enjoy helping out fellow waymarkers - I really, REALLY do.  I've been doing this for a bit and there aren't many of us original waymarkers left.  That said - I don't like being set-up and I really don't like someone asking for assistance and then not being appreciative of that assistance.  I came onto this board this morning thinking I was going to make a valuable contribution; I find, however, you have already answered your own question, another waymarkers grousing about a denial I made two months ago, and a third sticking a nose into a situation where it doesn't belong as the waymarker hasn't been given the full story.  Do you see WHY I'm just more than a little pissed off?  Probably not.  This whole thing was about you in the first place.  If it wasn't, you would have, like Bon Echo suggested, contacted me directly  Anyway, that's why you got the answer you got 3 hours ago, and honestly, I was rather restrained with that reply.

 

As of this moment - 8pm CST - please, no one, do not contact me directly to answer questions placed on these forums regarding category descriptions.  I will not engage those questions.  I'll be happy to answer those questions on those categories I lead sent directly through to my email, but I am no longer going to engage these category description questions through the forums like happened today.   I am sorry about that, but I am not going to stress like this over Waymarking - it's just not worth it!

[+elyob]

This does make interesting reading.

[+Max and 99]

11 minutes ago, iconions said:

Why is it not cool?  You decided it was SO important that I answer this that you had to contact me directly.  Did you want everyone to think that I stumbled into this cluster of a topic all by myself?  Nope - if it was so important that the entire Waymarking community know about this clarification, then it is also just important to know that you contacted me directly to jump on this topic to make the clarification.  You can't have it both ways.  If you are going to make this topic public, then EVERYTHING is going to be public.  If you wanted a private conversation, then you should have not started this thread, or better still, not email me to make the clarification.  If you wanted privacy, you should have emailed me or another officer directly, in private, like is usually done. 

You seem to be confused about two things.

1. You post private messages on the forum ( not mine). This means there is no such thing as a private message to you. It has zero do do with this thread. Zero. I was hesitant to contact you about this thread since you don't keep private messages private as evidenced by your posts the last time someone tried to get a new category they peer review. I always intended this discussion to be public and still believe the information should be available to the community, not just one person.  Public. For all to see. All of it. You are confused about the issue of privacy related to this thread. 

2. I am reading the category description you quoted completely differently.   Franchises or chains that are confined to one country will be considered "regional" for the purposes of this category.   

I see the word "considered" as a definition of what is accepted.

You see the word as "I'll think about it." , since you commented that you considered it. I think you should keep in mind that others don't see it the way you do, and there will be confusion.

[+PISA-caching]

12 hours ago, iconions said:

I was the one who denied that waymark.  Please PISA-caching, continue with the rest of the explanation of your waymark and tell the rest of the story.  4 of those locations were in Vienna and the single other location was Graz  - not hardly a "regional" chain.  Regional means just that - regional.  Just getting a second city isn't a "regional" presence.  If you are going to call someone out, please make sure you give all of the story.   

 

What exactly is "the rest of the story", that I did NOT tell in my posting? I said that they have 5 shops in 2 Austrian cities. Would the situation be so different, if there were 3 in Vienna and 2 in Graz?

 

And thank you for the explanation "Regional means just that - regional.". That really helps a lot. :-) I was hoping for some facts like "at least 3 cities" or "half the provinces of your country" or... anything. Instead you feel attacked and blamed for whatever. That "let's talk" sounds like you will consider it again when there is another shop in Berlin, but maybe that is a misinterpretation by me.

 

Anyway, I know what I will do. When the "chain" opens the next shop in a different city, I will post that waymark again and I will continue to post it with every new shop they open in an additional city (they're planning to open one in Berlin, Germany and one in Bern, Switzerland too) and one day - I hope - this chain will be "regional" enough for the category. Just for the records: I'm not a fan of vegan food, but their burgers and fries are really delicious.

 

I have the impression, that what you told us is your interpretation of the word "regional". I wonder, if the other officers have the same opinion. Or is it possible that another officer would have accepted it and another one would expect more locations than you? In other words: Is there no defined limit and if there isn't, wouldn't it be good to have one, so that waymarkers know from the start, whether their new waymark has a chance of being accepted or not?

 

Edited November 6, 2018 by PISA-caching

[+PISA-caching]

14 hours ago, Max and 99 said:

Vegetarian eateries? There's hardly a burger chain out there that doesn't offer a vegetarian patty, but that doesn't meet the criteria for a vegetarian restaurant. 

But I sure think your waymark would fit the Regional Chains burger category!

 

 

Oh, the difference here is that they ONLY serve vegan burgers. That's why the waymark was accepted in the Vegetarian Eateries category.

[+Max and 99]

3 hours ago, PISA-caching said:

 

Oh, the difference here is that they ONLY serve vegan burgers. That's why the waymark was accepted in the Vegetarian Eateries category.

Holy cow! What a great addition to that category! I haven't seen one of those in the states. Good find!

[+PISA-caching]

54 minutes ago, Max and 99 said:

Holy cow! What a great addition to that category! I haven't seen one of those in the states. Good find!

 

I think it was a brave decision to have a completely vegan menu. They started in 2015 and are growing fast. So the decision was right. Even if other burger shops offer one or two vegan or vegetarian burgers, a true vegetarian will always prefer to have many different burgers and wraps to chose from. And I would assume that they feel much more comfortable knowing that they are surrounded by other vegetarians, compared to sitting in a "regular" burger shop with "beefeaters" around. :-)

[+Max and 99]

23 minutes ago, PISA-caching said:

 

I think it was a brave decision to have a completely vegan menu. They started in 2015 and are growing fast. So the decision was right. Even if other burger shops offer one or two vegan or vegetarian burgers, a true vegetarian will always prefer to have many different burgers and wraps to chose from. And I would assume that they feel much more comfortable knowing that they are surrounded by other vegetarians, compared to sitting in a "regular" burger shop with "beefeaters" around. :-)

Don't I know it! My family went out to eat at a burger and beer restaurant last week. No less than FOUR employees, including a manager, huddled around the cash register together trying to figure out how to ring up my order of a burger without meat. It was comical. The kid who brought our food said he had never heard of such an order, and asked a question about it. I've gotten quite used to it.  I'm so glad you mentioned the burger restaurant. Learned something new!

[+PISA-caching]

Well, I guess it's just a matter of time when someone outside Europe will "copy" the idea of combining fast food with vegan or vegetarian food. Thinking of all the different burger chains and shops in the US and throughout the world, I can imagine that (at least in some areas) a completely vegan burger shop would be a huge success.