Responsible cache ownership dilemma

[+barefootjeff]

A bit over a week ago I suddenly came down with a painful knee. The doctor thinks it's probably a small cartilage tear but, given my age (almost 64), there's likely to be a degree of osteoarthritis  involved as well. I'll know more next week after seeing the physiotherapist and getting my x-ray results, but for the moment I'm pretty much limited to T 1.5 or less P&Gs, which my own hides are anything but.

 

I'm hoping that the injury is temporary and, in time, I'll make a full recovery, but there's a fair chance some of my tougher hides might have become out of reach for me. Now most of those hides are designed not to require any routine maintenance, being robust containers hidden in dry locations (typically inside rock cavities) with good-sized logbooks that, given the small number of finds they get, are never going to fill in my lifetime. Realistically, the only maintenance they're likely to need is if there's a catastrophic failure like a muggling or a rock fall. Here's an example of what I mean - the container is a stainless steel cookpot, hidden deep inside a rock alcove near the top of a mountain in a spot muggles are unlikely to stumble across:

 

 

So my dilemma is, should my injury not fully heal, what's the responsible thing to do with those I can no longer reach? Adopting them out is unlikely to be a viable option given the current low level of caching activity in this region, so do I leave the caches out there until something goes wrong and then either archive them or get a friend to fix them, or should I be more "proactive" and just archive any I can't get to anymore?

 

 

[+Lynx Humble]

I would leave the cache out there until something goes wrong so you don't left geolitter in the field.

 

Also letting the cache out there still give opportunity to geocacher to find something else than park and grab.

[+barefootjeff]

9 minutes ago, Lynx Humble said:

I would leave the cache out there until something goes wrong so you don't left geolitter in the field.

 

I should add that any I did archive, I'd try to get someone to go out and retrieve so there shouldn't be any geolitter.

[+Harry Dolphin]

25 minutes ago, barefootjeff said:

So my dilemma is, should my injury not fully heal, what's the responsible thing to do with those I can no longer reach? Adopting them out is unlikely to be a viable option given the current low level of caching activity in this region, so do I leave the caches out there until something goes wrong and then either archive them or get a friend to fix them, or should I be more "proactive" and just archive any I can't get to anymore?

 

Yeah.  Does make me wonder.  I hid a number of caches in my late 50's.  Hiking caches.  Not found very often.  I'm 70 now.  Yes.  I've been caching over fourteen years!  

[+funkymunkyzone]

43 minutes ago, barefootjeff said:

or should I be more "proactive" and just archive any I can't get to anymore?

 

I say no, leave them be for the time being.  You can always change your plan later.  Archiving them when they are still all good just deprives the community of some great hides that you went to the trouble of putting out there.  And as you have pointed out, they are good containers in good hiding spots that will just as likely not require maintenance for a long time.

[+msrubble]

I'd say, see what's up with the knee.

 

If this turns out to be a long-term situation, do you have a caching buddy who could look after problems? Or maybe even an appreciative past finder, if he or she is reasonably close to the cache.

[+Team Microdot]

32 minutes ago, funkymunkyzone said:

 

I say no, leave them be for the time being.  You can always change your plan later.  Archiving them when they are still all good just deprives the community of some great hides that you went to the trouble of putting out there.  And as you have pointed out, they are good containers in good hiding spots that will just as likely not require maintenance for a long time.

 

^^ This.

 

It's obvious that you're a responsible CO and, as far as your knee goes, it's very early days yet and there's nothing to suggest these caches will need any attention in the immediate future.

 

Trying to put myself in your shoes (not literally, because I don't want a bad knee ) and being in a good position to plan my strategy over the long term I might, if I found that I would suffer further injury in the process of archiving and then retrieving those caches and I couldn't find anyone to adopt them, invite the next finder thereof to remove them from GZ and use them as they wished - maybe deploy them somewhere that they could maintain them - as new publications, obviously.

[+barefootjeff]

1 hour ago, msrubble said:

I'd say, see what's up with the knee.

 

If this turns out to be a long-term situation, do you have a caching buddy who could look after problems? Or maybe even an appreciative past finder, if he or she is reasonably close to the cache.

 

The nearest active cacher to me has just had both his knees replaced so is probably even less likely to be able to reach those T3.5s and T4s than I might be. We do have a fairly active Facebook group, although most of the members are from the Newcastle region a fair way north of here, but I'm sure I could coerce a few to help with retrievals should the need arise. I expect the most likely maintenance issue to be muggling, in which case there'd be nothing to remove anyway.

 

Curiously, about the only one of my hides I could easily access right now is one of my T5s as, although it's a tough multi, all the waypoints are virtual and the final's essentially a kayak P&G.

[+arisoft]

In the case you are not going to maintain the cache and you can not remove it yourself, you can ask the last finder to remove the cache and then archive it.

[+dprovan]

I don't consider this a dilemma at all. That's why I'm opposed to all these ideas of forced visits and centralized monitoring. Do what you can, let your caches last as long as they can, and when either you or the people in your community decide the cache is no longer viable, archive it and give yourself a pat on the back for a job well done. I reject this goofy notion that a CO's ability -- or even willingness -- to maintain his cache should be of any interest to anyone as long as the cache doesn't need maintenance.

[+cerberus1]

Sounds sorta along the lines of just another CHS letter thing creeping in at some point, but I'll play...

People can ask you about the weather soon.  

 

Can't say I'm in worse shape than you, but I've had an unusual share of injuries the past three years.  You heal...

What took three hours may take five.  Do what you can, and find a day when you feel good to go. 

 - Sometimes that's one in two weeks for me, but you Ozzies are a hardy bunch .  

Your caches aren't a problem now,  live in the present. 

[+barefootjeff]

4 hours ago, cerberus1 said:

Sounds sorta along the lines of just another CHS letter thing creeping in at some point, but I'll play...

People can ask you about the weather soon.  

 

Can't say I'm in worse shape than you, but I've had an unusual share of injuries the past three years.  You heal...

What took three hours may take five.  Do what you can, and find a day when you feel good to go. 

 - Sometimes that's one in two weeks for me, but you Ozzies are a hardy bunch .  

Your caches aren't a problem now,  live in the present. 

 

Not at all. The doctor suggested this could be something that doesn't heal (osteoarthritis) and I saw first hand what that condition did to my mother's mobility. Another local cacher just a few years older than me has gone through it to the point of recently having both knees replaced, limiting him now to pretty much T2.5 or less. His only cache is a T1.5 so it's not a maintenance issue for him, but 24 of my 34 hides are T3 or higher, with 10 of those T3.5+ requiring a lot of steep climbing and rock-hopping to get to.

 

I'm raising this in light of the increasing emphasis on the need for COs to regularly visit their caches, and the scourge of abandoned caches everyone's complaining about, and was wondering what the proper thing to do is should it turn out that I can no longer get to some of my tougher hides.

[+The A-Team]

56 minutes ago, barefootjeff said:

I'm raising this in light of the increasing emphasis on the need for COs to regularly visit their caches, and the scourge of abandoned caches everyone's complaining about, and was wondering what the proper thing to do is should it turn out that I can no longer get to some of my tougher hides.

My opinion is pretty much the same as the others here. If there isn't a problem with your higher-terrain caches, then there isn't an issue. Only when a maintenance issue arises with one of those caches will you need to determine what to do. Whether that's archival or having someone else perform maintenance on your behalf will depend on factors like your level of mobility, the availability of friends/fellow cachers, etc. Until then, there's nothing wrong with the cache.

 

As for a "need for COs to regularly visit their caches", I haven't seen that yet. I've seen regular visits being encouraged, but not required. I have several caches that are found somewhat regularly and I haven't checked on in over 6 years, and they're still chugging along without any reports of issues or threats/warnings from any automated or human systems.

Edited October 25, 2018 by The A-Team

[+thebruce0]

What A-Team said, and yeah I agree - let it sit. Nothing wrong with the cache yet. And you're an active owner, watching the cache, even.  I'd be cautious about announcing publicly about not being able to maintain, especially if you're transparent about encouraging someone else to maintain for you - that may not go over well with reviewers; and it's not so much an issue with the cache, but with the ownership responsibilities.  So yeah, until there's a problem with the cache, its state is of no concern to you. If you can find someone willing in time to go grab it or check on it, that's your best bet.

After all you never know what the future may hold, so why jump the gun now and take away a good cache?

[+arisoft]

45 minutes ago, thebruce0 said:

I'd be cautious about announcing publicly about not being able to maintain, especially if you're transparent about encouraging someone else to maintain for you - that may not go over well with reviewers; and it's not so much an issue with the cache, but with the ownership responsibilities.

 

Don't ask, don't tell seems to be the standard policy in geocaching in many ways. Everything is fine as long as the reviewer don't ask and you don't tell. In reality, having a maintenance plan do not require you to make any maintenance yourself. There is no reason to lie or conceal the fact that someone else is going to maintain the cache. Sometimes it is a requirement to get a remote cache published.

[+thebruce0]

Falling back on your already-agreed upon maintenance plan isn't lying. I'm saying if you agreed to maintain your own cache (typical cache published), then implying you are the one doing maintenance when someone else is means a reviewer may well treat that as shirking your responsibilities (and may even consider it blatant deception of reviewers) and take action. So, yes "don't ask don't tell" (implication: lying) is always a risk.

 

Or in other words, better to be honest and up front with a reviewer and let them know, possibly ask for an exception if they can be convinced.

Edited October 25, 2018 by thebruce0

[+barefootjeff]

1 hour ago, The A-Team said:

My opinion is pretty much the same as the others here. If there isn't a problem with your higher-terrain caches, then there isn't an issue. Only when a maintenance issue arises with one of those caches will you need to determine what to do. Whether that's archival or having someone else perform maintenance on your behalf will depend on factors like your level of mobility, the availability of friends/fellow cachers, etc. Until then, there's nothing wrong with the cache.

 

Thanks. Obviously my preference, at least for those caches that ought not require any routine maintenance (robust container, dry well-concealed hiding place, large logbook and few visitors) is for them to remain active until such time as there's a problem and address it then, but was curious where things actually stand, officially and unofficially, with that scenario.

 

1 hour ago, The A-Team said:

As for a "need for COs to regularly visit their caches", I haven't seen that yet. I've seen regular visits being encouraged, but not required.

 

The revamped guidelines now say:

 

Quote

To keep the geocache in proper working order, the cache owner must

• Visit the geocache regularly.

 

although I'm sure an argument could be made for an exemption when it can be shown that, by design, the cache doesn't need regular visits by the owner to keep it in proper working order and a plan is in place to deal with any maintenance issues that do arise.

 

1 hour ago, thebruce0 said:

I'd be cautious about announcing publicly about not being able to maintain, especially if you're transparent about encouraging someone else to maintain for you - that may not go over well with reviewers; and it's not so much an issue with the cache, but with the ownership responsibilities.

 

If the worst comes to the worst, I'd prefer to be up front with the local reviewer so that he's aware of my situation, although that's a tad difficult at the moment as our regular reviewer disappeared a couple of months ago and New South Wales is currently being managed by the Oregon reviewer in the USA. Hopefully by the time my degree of incapacitation becomes clear that will also have been resolved. Our former reviewer did recently lay the groundwork for community-assisted maintenance with Geocaching NSW (link) so I'm hopeful an acccomodation could be reached.

[+L0ne.R]

I'm getting older, more achy with arthritis and inflammation. Balance isn't what it was. I don't do high terrain (3+) just to be careful. If I was diagnosed with a quickly debilitating progressive condition, I would retrieve and archive our higher terrain, while I still can, then hide caches closer to home and easier to access, if I think I have a few years of mobile light activity.  

 

I'd look for easier terrain that would be a nice experience for cachers. A park, a forest with nice trails, not much bushwacking. It's quite possible to provide great favorite-point style caches that are lower, accessible terrain. 

[+barefootjeff]

5 minutes ago, L0ne.R said:

I'm getting older, more achy with arthritis and inflammation. Balance isn't what it was. I don't do high terrain (3+) just to be careful. If I was diagnosed with a quickly debilitating progressive condition, I would retrieve and archive our higher terrain, while I still can, then hide caches closer to home and easier to access, if I think I have a few years of mobile light activity.  

 

I'd look for easier terrain that would be a nice experience for cachers. A park, a forest with nice trails, not much bushwacking. It's quite possible to provide great favorite-point style caches that are lower, accessible terrain. 

 

Retrieving them isn't something I'm capable of doing right now, and if in the months ahead I recover sufficiently to be able to do that, there'll be no need to. Just two weeks ago I was agile enough to do two consecutive 6km T3 hikes to prepare and place a new cache with no discomfort (in hindsight, that, along with some rock-hopping caching over the following days and a twisting slip and tumble on my driveway a few weeks back, might well have been what set it off), now I can barely hobble through the supermarket. The doctor was unsure whether I have just an acute tear in the meniscus or if osteoarthritis is the underlying cause, hence the x-rays, but I should have a better idea on Monday. Just a couple of months back I completed a 250km hike from Sydney to Newcastle along the Great North Walk, done as a series of day walks, and had just assumed I'd have at least another decade or so of agility left in me before I'd have to think about doing anything with my higher terrain caches, so it's caught me complelely off guard.

[+famerlor_dragon]

I would recommend like others to leave the caches in play but be quick about disabling them if there is evidence of a maintenance need to check it out on your time.

 

Many cachers will perform maintenance for you if you ask for it via a note and provide photos.

 

"Regularly" does not impose a timeframe. I only visit when something seems wrong. If you place properly and sturdy this is all it needs. I am not getting any complaints.

[+grimpil]

As a relative newbie to this game, not necessarily conversant with  all the official rules nitty gritty, I don't see a problem until a cacher has an issue with one of your hides.  After all how many of us, COs or not, can actually guarantee we will not die suddenly by falling under the next bus or in some random accident?  Any cache could be orphaned overnight.  Surely all caches are hidden on the basis that unless muggled or damaged by weather or terrain problems they are out there to be found.  At least you are keeping watch for any reported issues so cross the problem bridge when you come to it.

[+MartyBartfast]

I would say leave them out there. I have an ammo can that's been out there for 11 years and I've only had to visit it once ~  6 years ago. If the container is decent and the log book is large enough to handle the expected traffic then they could survive in good condition for years and years. When the time does come that one needs maintenance then you could archive it, or maybe by then there will be someone else in the area who would be up for adopting it or maintaining it for you.

 

 

[+MartyBartfast]

Quote

To keep the geocache in proper working order, the cache owner must

• Visit the geocache regularly.

 

being pedantic but regularly doesn't mean often.

 

Once every 25 years is regular, but not often.

Every time I'm in the area is often, but not regular.

 

I, and I suspect many others, only visit our caches infrequently or if there seems to be a need, so I wouldn't get hung up about that myself.

 

 

 

 

 

[+Team Microdot]

1 minute ago, MartyBartfast said:

 

being pedantic but regularly doesn't mean often.

 

Once every 25 years is regular, but not often.

Every time I'm in the area is often, but not regular.

 

I, and I suspect many others, only visit our caches infrequently or if there seems to be a need, so I wouldn't get hung up about that myself.

 

 

It's a shame that proper use of language is seen by some as pedantic.

 

Why wield a tool with the precision of a surgeon's scalpel as though it were a lump hammer?

[+justintim1999]

I'd leave the caches out until they develop a problem.   In the mean time I'd look to see if I could find someone who would adopt them or agree to do maintenance on them if the need arose.   If the time comes when a cache needed maintenance and your unable to fix it yourself or find anyone to do it for you,  I'd archive them and try to figure out a way to retrieve the containers. 

 

Adoption would be the best route.  Finding someone who will help you with maintenance will work as long as your willing to monitor the caches and post the Owners Maintenance Logs when repairs are made.    

[+thebruce0]

4 hours ago, MartyBartfast said:

being pedantic but regularly doesn't mean often.

 

Once every 25 years is regular, but not often.

Every time I'm in the area is often, but not regular.

 

I, and I suspect many others, only visit our caches infrequently or if there seems to be a need, so I wouldn't get hung up about that myself.

 

Agreed completely.  I interpret the clause as, essentially, having a maintenance plan. That's all that matters, really; as long as the reviewer is sufficiently satisfied.  I don't think I've seen an instance of a reviewer saying "Nope, you absolutely must visit your cache at least once every week/month/year".  Some have requested (even required) that a CO check after there's report of a possible issue and cite that they should visit it 'regularly' (see above), but that's still not the same as 'often' let alone requiring an unreasonably rapid visitation cycle.

[+L0ne.R]

On 10/26/2018 at 9:41 AM, thebruce0 said:

 

Agreed completely.  I interpret the clause as, essentially, having a maintenance plan. That's all that matters, really; as long as the reviewer is sufficiently satisfied.  I don't think I've seen an instance of a reviewer saying "Nope, you absolutely must visit your cache at least once every week/month/year".  Some have requested (even required) that a CO check after there's report of a possible issue and cite that they should visit it 'regularly' (see above), but that's still not the same as 'often' let alone requiring an unreasonably rapid visitation cycle.

 

Yes. I think that's the intent of the guidelines. Regular maintenance depends on the cache. 

When I first started I checked my caches almost monthly because I didn't know what to expect in terms of wear-n-tear. 

Now I have a good idea about how long before a container could use a checkup and cleanup.

I tend to check them twice a year but most could go a year or more. I like to remove spider webs and hibernating moths and check if mice might have moved in. It makes for a more pleasant experience for finders. An ammo can in a rocky outcrop could go years without needing a checkup. 

Edited November 5, 2019 by L0ne.R
typos

[+Spandoc]

On 10/24/2018 at 6:08 PM, barefootjeff said:

So my dilemma is, should my injury not fully heal, what's the responsible thing to do with those I can no longer reach? Adopting them out is unlikely to be a viable option given the current low level of caching activity in this region, so do I leave the caches out there until something goes wrong and then either archive them or get a friend to fix them, or should I be more "proactive" and just archive any I can't get to anymore?

 

Sigh.  Okayyyy, I'll maintain them for you in exchange for airfare.     Good luck on the news from the doctor, btw.  It sucks getting old!  (voice of experience talking)

Edited October 26, 2018 by Spandoc
My reply was in the quote box

[+barefootjeff]

Thanks everyone for your advice. I saw the doctor and physiotherapist today; the x-rays showed only minor age-related degeneration of my knee joint and some fluid buildup, with my doctor thinking it's more likely just too much pummeling of the meniscus rather than an actual tear. The physio said I need to strengthen the quadriceps in my left leg as I'm apparently a bit lopsided towards the right, and has given me some exercises to do along with what's effectively a ban on anything much above a T2 until it's all fully resolved. So eventually I should be able to get back to my T3.5 and T4 hides but not for a good while yet.

[+Team Microdot]

Glad to hear it ?

[+STNolan]

3 hours ago, barefootjeff said:

Thanks everyone for your advice. I saw the doctor and physiotherapist today; the x-rays showed only minor age-related degeneration of my knee joint and some fluid buildup, with my doctor thinking it's more likely just too much pummeling of the meniscus rather than an actual tear. The physio said I need to strengthen the quadriceps in my left leg as I'm apparently a bit lopsided towards the right, and has given me some exercises to do along with what's effectively a ban on anything much above a T2 until it's all fully resolved. So eventually I should be able to get back to my T3.5 and T4 hides but not for a good while yet.

Great news! Glad to know that you'll be able to continue enjoying some more high Ts soon!

[+Gill & Tony]

That's good news.

 

However, if it does come to the worst, there are a number of cachers in the Illawarra area who love nothing more than a high terrain cache and who might like a weekend up North.  When the time comes, contact the ICC facebook group.

[+barefootjeff]

46 minutes ago, Gill & Tony said:

That's good news.

 

However, if it does come to the worst, there are a number of cachers in the Illawarra area who love nothing more than a high terrain cache and who might like a weekend up North.  When the time comes, contact the ICC facebook group.

 

Thanks for the offer, it's much appreciated. Of course your group's welcome up this way anytime regardless of what eventuates with my knee.