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Social Butterfly Souvenir

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4 hours ago, Team Microdot said:

That's easy - it would be virtually dipping a load of TB's from the comfort of one's armchair in order to amass the required points.

 

It's fundamentally no different than logging a cache in another country that you never visited in order to get a souvenir.

 

My response to couch-logging TBs (rather than, you know, actually having them dropped and retrieved at a cache or event, since that's the very description of the TB drop log) is this - first, Groundspeak knows people do this. Nonetheless they allowed it. For this latest one they reduced the TB drop to 1 point. That's good; but IMO still not really enough to be thematically relevant.

Personally, since now you're qualifying the TB-drop-for-points with the couch-logging strategy, which is already against the spirit and intent of the TB drop (the log for which literally describes you dropping the TB at the location), I wouldn't condone it and likely would describe it to someone as gaming the system.

 

The difference?

- "Earn points for the souvenir by dropping trackables" ~ it's not gaming the system by dropping trackables to earn the souvenir (the point I was making above)

- "Dropped Off a Trackable means you've left a TB for someone else to take" ~ it's gaming the system (taking advantage of a loophole) by posting the log without the implied action in order to earn a reward

 

* Is someone gaming the system if they find a cache or attend an event and drop/dip 70 trackables? Nope.

* Is someone gaming the system by posting 70 drop and retrieve logs on trackables in their possession to any cache or event, from the comfort of their couch? I would say yes. (I wouldn't classify it as cheating though - the system allows for the action, and knowingly, it's not against the rules)

 

This is a concept well known in video gaming as well ('speedruns' take advantage of exploits, bugs, and loopholes, and some games embrace them leaving them unpatched for people to enjoy; as opposed to cheating by using external 3rd party tools to circumvent designed game mechanics). Ironically, right now there's a discussion about save game mechanics in a video game happening, and whether using the designed save system to progress in a game by loading to re-do failures is cheating, or taking advantage of an exploit, or just part of the game's intended strategy or design. Eerily similar discussion.

 

If the system allows it by design without denouncing it as cheating, it's not cheating. If the system allows it by design yet seems to be against the implied spirit of the 'game', it'd be an exploit, or 'gaming the system' (exploiting loopholes, unintended or unexpected shortcuts, for personal gain - as would be the loophole of abusing the "honour system" when it comes to log posting on the geocaching website; any log)

 

Of course, in the context of earning the souvenir, one could argue that it's not gaming the system for the souvenir at all if Groundspeak knows that people couch-drop their TBs illegitimately in order to get the souvenir, especially if a majority of those logs during the period are for that explicit purpose - and they still allow it (which they do, and they know because they reduced the point value to 1).  I wouldn't agree with that because I don't want to condone that type of behaviour tho.  Couch-logging any find or drop is gaming the system first, because it's technically deception (per the log, you didn't find that cache; or you didn't drop that TB; or you weren't in that webcam's view and snap its image; etc)

 

 

Dropping TBs for the souvenir? Not gaming the souvenir system.

Couch-dropping TBs for the souvenir? Gaming the TB system for the souvenir reward.

Edited by thebruce0

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5 minutes ago, thebruce0 said:

Dropping TBs for the souvenir? Not gaming souvenir the system.

Couch-dropping TBs for the souvenir? Gaming the TB system for the souvenir reward.

 

Completely agree - assuming in the first sentence above you meant Not gaming the souvenir system.

 

Wow - I feel heard at last :wub:

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On 10/28/2018 at 4:10 PM, IceColdUK said:

 

Just to add, I’m not saying it’s wrong, and I’m not saying Groundspeak didn’t consider the possibility, I just don’t believe it was their intention.

 

Not looking for a fight. 😉

 

I don't want to get in the middle of this either, but since I've used the phrase gaming the system frequently I thought I'd chime in.  I think that "I don't believe it was their intention" is an important point here.   The classic example for how I've suggested how some are gaming the system is related to the guideline which states "You may log a cache as found if the log is signed".  To me, it seems pretty obvious is that the *intent* of the guideline is indicate that if someone wants to post a found it log, they must find a cache and sign the log sheet.  But there's a loophole in the guideline.  It doesn't specifically say that one has to actually find the cache, or that the finder  has to personally sign the log sheet.  That loophole is exploited when geocacher form adhoc teams,  then split up to find different caches, and all sign the "team name" on every cache, then somehow when it comes time to post found it logs the team dissolves and everyone posts a personal found it log.  Technically, that doesn't violate the guidelines, but it's gaming the system to exploit a loop hole which circumvents the intent.  

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Fourteen finds in three days got me the souvenir.  Will attend a GIFF event in a week or two.  Oh, well.

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On 10/23/2018 at 3:24 PM, barefootjeff said:

 If the Social Butterfly actually required attending an event...

 

... It would make a lot more sense to me.  Earn 70 points total, and at least 15 of those points must come from attending 1 event.  That may be a bit trickier to manage than just adding up points, but it would seem to be a logical requirement!

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I'd support that score structure too. That at least requires something relevant to the theme.

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I think it's more important to discuss why these three souvenirs are picturing men and not even one woman!

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3 minutes ago, stina_m said:

I think it's more important to discuss why these three souvenirs are picturing men and not even one woman!

 

The first featured a woman, the second a man, and the third (the current one) a woman...

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Adrenaline Junkie is a woman

You_Might_Be_A_Geocacher_If_AdrenalineJu

 

There was happy discussion about that when the image was first released

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Well if we're being completely PC should we even be assuming the gender of the cartoon characters? 🙊

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26 minutes ago, thebruce0 said:

Adrenaline Junkie is a woman

You_Might_Be_A_Geocacher_If_AdrenalineJu

 

There was happy discussion about that when the image was first released

 

Ok. Thanks. Sorry. I missed that discussion. Have to find and read it. I think they all look male...

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I think aside from the connoisseur, they other two look fairly 'gender neutral'... It may intentional, it may just be the art style, dunno. Either way, you can infer they're all male, but they're clearly not obviously and intentionally male :) s'all good

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8 hours ago, stina_m said:

I think it's more important to discuss why these three souvenirs are picturing men and not even one woman!

 

"Important" how ?

Not sure why this pc stuff has to find it's way into a hobby,  but even this old fart realized that "adrenaline" was female...   :)

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On 10/24/2018 at 10:26 AM, DreamMachine74 said:

I generally agree with the points made above, and heck, I happen to be going to an event just as this time period starts....but the incentive to find caches for this souvenir isn't too high, especially as it's something we all can earn, and earn fairly quickly

On 10/23/2018 at 3:08 PM, thebruce0 said:

Themed souvenirs should be rewarded for themed finds. That's where I'm standing and I ain't moving ;)

These recent souvenirs were good ideas. But they'd have executed better, imo, if they didn't reward basic geocaching activities but encouraged people to experience something related to the theme (by you know, actually requiring them to do it), which is itself encouraging people to get out geocaching.

It's been mentioned before, especially in other threads, but finding things related to the theme isn't something 'everyone' can do.  Both of you, and myself included, are in areas where it's relatively easy to find "social" caches - but there are plenty of cachers that don't have that luxury.  Those cachers might already feel left out because their caching options are so limited, so limiting their souvenir options as well would be even more disheartening.  If they don't get enthused or motivated about caching, then the hobby won't expand or maybe even survive in those areas. That these souvenirs are "easy" to achieve with un-themed caches, by cachers in cache-dense states/countries/provinces/etc, reminds me of that saying "first world problems".  These souvenir promotions are trying to encourage more caching.  Those of us in cache-dense areas don't need as much encouragement as those in cache-sparse areas.  If a cacher has plenty of options to score the points, then there's no reason they can't personally challenge themselves to achieve the points with themed-only caches.

 

On 10/29/2018 at 6:13 AM, Team Microdot said:

Wow - I feel heard at last :wub:

As I read through the thread, I myself was surprised that I agreed with you about something.   :P

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9 minutes ago, noncentric said:

It's been mentioned before, especially in other threads, but finding things related to the theme isn't something 'everyone' can do.  Both of you, and myself included, are in areas where it's relatively easy to find "social" caches - but there are plenty of cachers that don't have that luxury.  Those cachers might already feel left out because their caching options are so limited, so limiting their souvenir options as well would be even more disheartening.  If they don't get enthused or motivated about caching, then the hobby won't expand or maybe even survive in those areas. That these souvenirs are "easy" to achieve with un-themed caches, by cachers in cache-dense states/countries/provinces/etc, reminds me of that saying "first world problems".  These souvenir promotions are trying to encourage more caching.  Those of us in cache-dense areas don't need as much encouragement as those in cache-sparse areas.  If a cacher has plenty of options to score the points, then there's no reason they can't personally challenge themselves to achieve the points with themed-only caches.

 

On the whole I'd probably agree with you, but for this particular souvenir, there'd be nothing to stop someone in a cache-poor area from hosting an event themselves if attending an event was a requirement and they were keen to get it. Maybe doing that might be a way of encouraging a bit more caching activity in their area. As I said earlier, had there been such a requirement, I'd have considered hosting an event myself as there are no others in this region during the souvenir period, as I did in January for the Where In the World is Signal souvenir for which attending an event was a requirement, but as it stands there's no incentive to put in the effort to do that.

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29 minutes ago, barefootjeff said:

On the whole I'd probably agree with you, but for this particular souvenir, there'd be nothing to stop someone in a cache-poor area from hosting an event themselves if attending an event was a requirement and they were keen to get it. Maybe doing that might be a way of encouraging a bit more caching activity in their area. As I said earlier, had there been such a requirement, I'd have considered hosting an event myself as there are no others in this region during the souvenir period, as I did in January for the Where In the World is Signal souvenir for which attending an event was a requirement, but as it stands there's no incentive to put in the effort to do that.

Full disclosure:  I didn't get the "where in the world..." souvenirs, either of them.  I mean "get" in the sense of acquire, not in the sense of understanding.

 

And yes, I thought about cachers hosting an event.  So maybe if attending/hosting just one event was required, as CAVinoGal mentioned, then it wouldn't be too bad.  I wonder how many cachers in cache-sparse areas would do it, if they weren't confident about how much attendance they would get.  I also wonder if it's desired to encourage cachers to host events, and add workload to Reviewers, in such areas - but would there really be that many to make a noticeable difference?  I don't know.

 

But then requiring an Event for this souvenir would also mean that the other souvenirs should've "required" an adrenaline-related cache (not everyone can do due to physical limitations, availability of such caches) and a highly-favorited cache (doesn't necessarily exist everywhere).  We certainly can't "require" a themed cache for one souvenir, but not for the other souvenirs.  That would be inconsistent.  A cacher can't really 'create' a qualifying cache in those other scenarios, and couldn't "find" their own even if they did create one, and we shouldn't be encouraging cache placements for souvenirs.  It's all a bit convoluted when looking at the entire promotion.

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20 minutes ago, noncentric said:

And yes, I thought about cachers hosting an event.  So maybe if attending/hosting just one event was required, as CAVinoGal mentioned, then it wouldn't be too bad.  I wonder how many cachers in cache-sparse areas would do it, if they weren't confident about how much attendance they would get.  I also wonder if it's desired to encourage cachers to host events, and add workload to Reviewers, in such areas - but would there really be that many to make a noticeable difference?  I don't know.

 

But then requiring an Event for this souvenir would also mean that the other souvenirs should've "required" an adrenaline-related cache (not everyone can do due to physical limitations, availability of such caches) and a highly-favorited cache (doesn't necessarily exist everywhere).  We certainly can't "require" a themed cache for one souvenir, but not for the other souvenirs.  That would be inconsistent.  A cacher can't really 'create' a qualifying cache in those other scenarios, and couldn't "find" their own even if they did create one, and we shouldn't be encouraging cache placements for souvenirs.  It's all a bit convoluted when looking at the entire promotion.

 

Perhaps there's a need to rethink the idea that everyone has to be able to get every souvenir. I did quite poorly on the Hidden Creatures as I've cached out most of my local region, and I only scraped through Planetary Pursuit because it happened to coincide with a mega 50km north of here which had a heap of geoart caches published that I was able to find while attending. As long as no-one misses out entirely, it shouldn't be a problem. Maybe they could even come up with a souvenir that's easier to get in a cache-poor region than a saturated one, like perhaps a requirement to find a cache that's at least a certain distance from any others.

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3 hours ago, barefootjeff said:

Perhaps there's a need to rethink the idea that everyone has to be able to get every souvenir. I did quite poorly on the Hidden Creatures as I've cached out most of my local region, and I only scraped through Planetary Pursuit because it happened to coincide with a mega 50km north of here which had a heap of geoart caches published that I was able to find while attending. As long as no-one misses out entirely, it shouldn't be a problem. Maybe they could even come up with a souvenir that's easier to get in a cache-poor region than a saturated one, like perhaps a requirement to find a cache that's at least a certain distance from any others.

I don't disagree with the first part of your post that I bolded.   And I don't think GS thinks that everyone has to be able to get every souvenir, but there are cachers that think they should and will be vocal about it.

 

Regarding the second part of your post that I bolded.  With Hidden Creatures, there were cachers complaining that 100 finds for the World Turtle was too many, even though they could get multiple souvenirs with less finds.  And those complaints weren't just in the Forums.  It often seems to me that no matter what GS does, there will be cachers that complain about it and say they should've done it the 'other' way.

 

 

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So today I accidentally became a Social Butterfly after finding a new cache nearby that was published over the weekend, on top of a bunch of geoart puzzles left over from the Easter mega I solved and found earlier in the month and a couple of other caches found here and there in my travels. I'm feeling a tad guilty now as, not only were there no events in that tally, I was caching all by my lonesome on each and every one of them. Some social butterfly, huh? Maybe I should've made an effort to find fewer caches this month to avoid getting that souvenir, but, um, I'm not sure if that's how these souvenirs are meant to work either. I guess I could atone my sin and become a true butterfly by attending an event before the end of the souvenir period, but the nearest one is on the 2nd of December and is about 50km each way by road through all the joys of Sydney weekend traffic.

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13 hours ago, barefootjeff said:

So today I accidentally became a Social Butterfly after finding a new cache nearby that was published over the weekend, on top of a bunch of geoart puzzles left over from the Easter mega I solved and found earlier in the month and a couple of other caches found here and there in my travels. I'm feeling a tad guilty now as, not only were there no events in that tally, I was caching all by my lonesome on each and every one of them. Some social butterfly, huh? Maybe I should've made an effort to find fewer caches this month to avoid getting that souvenir, but, um, I'm not sure if that's how these souvenirs are meant to work either. I guess I could atone my sin and become a true butterfly by attending an event before the end of the souvenir period, but the nearest one is on the 2nd of December and is about 50km each way by road through all the joys of Sydney weekend traffic.

You are talking about your experience on a world-wide forum.  I believe that will qualify as being a bit of a Social Butterfly. 🤠

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20 hours ago, barefootjeff said:

So today I accidentally became a Social Butterfly

 

7 hours ago, K13 said:

You are talking about your experience on a world-wide forum.  I believe that will qualify as being a bit of a Social Butterfly.

 

HUbby and I each earned the Social Butterfly souvenir simply by caching as we usually do - going for our daily cache goal for 2018.  At the point we "earned" it, we had not attended any events, and cached alone or together each day, just the 2 of us.  I did attend one of the GIFF events, but he did not.  It all just seems kind of, well, lame to me.  I don't mind making it more of a challenge, like requiring at least one event, but that's just my opinion.  I got the sounvenir, oh boy!

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I waited until a local event on the 17th before finding any caches during the current promotion. I'll gather the requisite points during Black Friday/Saturday, weather permitting.

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