Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 3
Max and 99

Social Butterfly Souvenir

Recommended Posts

You might be a Social Butterfly if...

You walk the walk and talk the talk—as in you like to go to events! You are fully immersed in the geocaching community and Event Caches are totally your thing. You love meeting all of your fellow geocachers and have a knack for helping newbies fall in love with the game!

To earn the Social Butterfly souvenir, earn 70 points individually on your Friend League starting October 29 at noon UTC through December 3 at noon UTC. This month earn higher points for attending Event Caches!

 

https://www.geocaching.com/blog/2018/10/you-might-be-a-social-butterfly-if/?newsletter=PM

Edited by Max and 99

Share this post


Link to post

Some "social butterfly"... 

Get the same points for an event by simply hitting three caches.   NBD.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
2 minutes ago, cerberus1 said:

Some "social butterfly"... 

Get the same points for an event by simply hitting three caches.   NBD.

 

 

Heh...so I'm a "social butterfly" if I go caching on my own for a day.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Just now, J Grouchy said:

Heh...so I'm a "social butterfly" if I go caching on my own for a day.

 

Exactly. 

The scoring*:

Action Point value
Log a Found it on any geocache 5
Log a Found it on a geocache with 10 or more Favorite points 10
Attend any event 15
Drop off trackable

Share this post


Link to post
4 minutes ago, thebruce0 said:

At least TB drops are only 1 point now

 

I've known people get souvenirs purely by dipping their own TB's.

Share this post


Link to post

Sure, and it's still possible.

 

But at least TB drops are only 1 point now.

Share this post


Link to post
5 minutes ago, thebruce0 said:

Sure, and it's still possible.

 

But at least TB drops are only 1 point now.

 

The point I was trying to make, although I wasn't explicit, is that it's kinda funny how souvenirs are (I imagine) intended to motivate people to do things (mainly find more caches) but they'll still find ways to do it which were never intended and usually with the least amount of effort possible.

 

Hey - I got this cool bunch of pixels on my profile by sitting on my derrière and clicking my mouse a few times - I feel such a sense of achievement :lol:

Edited by Team Microdot
brainfart

Share this post


Link to post

Yep. And that's been what's bugged me most about these YMBA..If souvenirs.  Great themes, great idea, great potential.  But motivation is thin and value is reduced if you really have no actual reason to follow the theme to get the souvenir. It's an "everybody gets one" mentality.

The themes don't have to be about find quantities, just about following a theme in some aspect of geocaching. Just don't reward any and every possible minimal geocaching activity to get the reward if it's not related to the theme. The souvenir loses its value if it can be equally promoted as "cache as usual".

 

If GS wants to get people out caching, the answer isn't to consistently reward points just for finding any old geocache. You are rewarding active geocaching by even incentivizing finding a themed cache. I think the souvenirs would have been much better if the TB points and generic find points didn't exist.

 

Reward themed finds! That's the whole point of the themed souvenir. =/

  • Upvote 3

Share this post


Link to post
2 hours ago, thebruce0 said:

Reward themed finds! That's the whole point of the themed souvenir. =/

Actually, Moun10Bike said in the previous discussion:

Quote

I haven't spoken to the marketing department about their reasoning, but I imagine that they are trying to entice those who are not quite as active to get outside to cache a bit more.

 

If what he suspects is true, then the point of these souvenirs isn't to find caches that fit the stated theme, but simply to get people to find more caches. With that goal in mind, the generous scoring and low-bar make sense.

 

That being said, I still don't agree with the trackable scoring. We've already seen in the past that this gets abused, and it doesn't fit either of the goals above in that it has nothing to do with finding caches. One need not find a single cache in order to get these souvenirs.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post

Okay, maybe I should reword: "Reward themed finds! That [should be] the whole point of themed souvenirs!"

Obviously they're encouraging and rewarding general active caching... but then what's the point of themes?  Well okay, it's be to give people optional motivation; something neat to think about and focus on if they want... okay, sure.  But then we have the argument that the meaning/value/purpose of souvenirs is just getting diluted.  It's like having a new country souvenir, but rewarding it to anyone who gets a cache anywhere on its entire continent. Or the Earth. Yay?

 

The themes are getting people out caching (or if not, that's motivation to try different themes and ideas). Why do we want to give extra reward for doing the very very very basic activity?  A theme kind of implies more than just the basic. The basic "reward" for finding a cache is the smiley (I say "reward" because obviously we hope that the act of finding is reward enough, but that's definitely quite hit and miss). But now we're giving out souvenirs and smileys for basic finding.

 

Themed souvenirs should be rewarded for themed finds. That's where I'm standing and I ain't moving ;)

These recent souvenirs were good ideas. But they'd have executed better, imo, if they didn't reward basic geocaching activities but encouraged people to experience something related to the theme (by you know, actually requiring them to do it), which is itself encouraging people to get out geocaching.

  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
6 minutes ago, thebruce0 said:

Themed souvenirs should be rewarded for themed finds. That's where I'm standing and I ain't moving ;)

These recent souvenirs were good ideas. But they'd have executed better, imo, if they didn't reward basic geocaching activities but encouraged people to experience something related to the theme (by you know, actually requiring them to do it), which is itself encouraging people to get out geocaching.

 

I agree. For me, I much preferred the 2015 Road Trip souvenir promotion that had a theme each month where you had to find one cache (or attend one event for The Socializer) that fitted the theme (a mystery., a multi, a D5 or T5, etc.). That made me go looking to pick out something special for each month. In the present promotion I've tried to honour the theme, getting the Adrenaline one from just a handful of high D/T caches and going for at least some highly favourited caches in this one. If the Social Butterfly actually required attending an event I'd think seriously about hosting one, but the way the scoring works doesn't give much incentive for that.

  • Upvote 4
  • Helpful 1

Share this post


Link to post

I generally agree with the points made above, and heck, I happen to be going to an event just as this time period starts....but the incentive to find caches for this souvenir isn't too high, especially as it's something we all can earn, and earn fairly quickly. 

Share this post


Link to post
On 10/24/2018 at 12:24 AM, barefootjeff said:
On 10/24/2018 at 12:08 AM, thebruce0 said:

enirs should be rewarded for themed finds. That's where I'm standing and I ain't moving ;)

These recent souvenirs were good ideas. But they'd have executed better, imo, if they didn't reward basic geocaching activities but encouraged people to experience something related to the theme (by you know, actually requiring them to do it), which is itself encouraging people to get out geocaching.

 

I agree. For me, I much preferred the 2015 Road Trip souvenir promotion that had a theme each month where you had to find one cache (or attend one event for The Socializer) that fitted the theme (a mystery., a multi, a D5 or T5, etc.). That made me go looking to pick out something special for each month.

 

I agree on both counts.

 

On 10/24/2018 at 12:24 AM, barefootjeff said:

In the present promotion I've tried to honour the theme, getting the Adrenaline one from just a handful of high D/T caches and going for at least some highly favourited caches in this one. If the Social Butterfly actually required attending an event I'd think seriously about hosting one, but the way the scoring works doesn't give much incentive for that.

 

I haven't changed my caching to fit the theme of these.  I probably should get off my fourth point of contact and go to an event.  Other than dropping by a nearby mega event right after we got here, I haven't attended any here in Germany yet - mostly because I'm embarrassed by my poor German language skills.  (I was very happy that I ran into old friends at the mega - if I hadn't, I might not have stayed very long.)

Share this post


Link to post
6 hours ago, hzoi said:

I probably should get off my fourth point of contact

I had a pretty good idea what you meant here, but I had to Google the context.

 

I've called it my third knee, which comes from river canoeing. We tell the kids not to sit on the canoe seat, which puts their center of mass too high. We tell them instead to kneel in the "three knee position", where their points of contact are their left knee, their right knee, and their "high knee" (heinie).

 

But I digress...

  • Funny 1

Share this post


Link to post
On ‎10‎/‎23‎/‎2018 at 2:39 PM, Team Microdot said:

Hey - I got this cool bunch of pixels on my profile by sitting on my derrière and clicking my mouse a few times - I feel such a sense of achievement :lol:

 

Another thread has a person from '15 doing their first 406 caches today (in two countries) and got that "connoisseur"  one.  :)

Share this post


Link to post
5 minutes ago, cerberus1 said:

 

Another thread has a person from '15 doing their first 406 caches today (in two countries) and got that "connoisseur"  one.  :)

 

Yeah - but chances are someone on here will tell you this is just a noob making a mistake 406 times in a row, or it didn't happen at all and this is just your poisoned soul condemning all of geocaching to the flames because you and your whole existence are empty husks.

Share this post


Link to post
On 10/24/2018 at 7:30 AM, Team Microdot said:

 

I've known people get souvenirs purely by dipping their own TB's.

 

Yep. I did it for one of the souvenir promotions. I didnt need to because I went out and found caches anyway but I already had the souvenir in question. I wont throw under the bus who I got the idea from, but it would surprise most here I suspect. But anyway, so what? I didnt come up with the scoring system, so I scored legitimate points as per what was put in place by GS at the time.

 

I dont think it was even gaming the system - I think that's a term all too often thrown about by those who simply disagree with how someone else plays within the framework set by GS. Really, TB drops probably shouldn't score anything, but since they do, then you cant blame someone for using it. That's like arguing that drop goals in rugby are lame, and teams that use them to score and win are gaming the system - nope, thems the rules set by the governing body.

Share this post


Link to post
15 minutes ago, funkymunkyzone said:

 

I dont think it was even gaming the system - I think that's a term all too often thrown about by those who simply disagree with how someone else plays within the framework set by GS. Really, TB drops probably shouldn't score anything, but since they do, then you cant blame someone for using it. That's like arguing that drop goals in rugby are lame, and teams that use them to score and win are gaming the system - nope, thems the rules set by the governing body.

 

Sounds to me like the very definition of gaming the system.

 

Quote

Gaming the system is manipulation or exploitation of the rules designed to govern a given system in an attempt to gain an advantage over other users.

 

Looks like a pretty good fit.

 

In this context, other users would be those who fulfilled the spirit* of the the task intended to form the basis of the award.

 

*Another term that's thrown about quite often here when it suits 😉

Share this post


Link to post
On 10/25/2018 at 11:49 AM, hzoi said:

I haven't attended any here in Germany yet - mostly because I'm embarrassed by my poor German language skills.

 

Not a problem at all. Everyone her speaks the English language and would be happy to talk with you. Just give it a try.

 

Best greetings, MB

  • Upvote 1
  • Love 1

Share this post


Link to post
38 minutes ago, Team Microdot said:

 

Sounds to me like the very definition of gaming the system.

 

 

Looks like a pretty good fit.

 

In this context, other users would be those who fulfilled the spirit* of the the task intended to form the basis of the award.

 

*Another term that's thrown about quite often here when it suits 😉

 

Exactly how did I exploit or manipulate the rules to gain an advantage over other players?

 

Groundspeak set the rules, specifically that dropping a tb was worth x points. So I dropped some tbs. They had every opportunity to have dropping a tb worth 0 points, so on the contrary, Groundspeak fully intended for tb drops to score points. They could have set a limit on the points scored but they didn't. They could have specified that one couldn't score from ones own tbs but they didnt.

 

Any mention of "the spirit" of it, refer back to my previous comment about people throwing around the "gaming the system" term.

Share this post


Link to post
5 minutes ago, funkymunkyzone said:

 

Exactly how did I exploit or manipulate the rules to gain an advantage over other players?

 

Groundspeak set the rules, specifically that dropping a tb was worth x points. So I dropped some tbs. They had every opportunity to have dropping a tb worth 0 points, so on the contrary, Groundspeak fully intended for tb drops to score points. They could have set a limit on the points scored but they didn't. They could have specified that one couldn't score from ones own tbs but they didnt.

 

Any mention of "the spirit" of it, refer back to my previous comment about people throwing around the "gaming the system" term.

 

You had enough TB's in your inventory to score the required number of points - that was your advantage and you exploited it.

 

Other players don't have enough TB's in their inventory and have to do things properly in a worthwhile manner.

 

Share this post


Link to post
6 minutes ago, Team Microdot said:

 

You had enough TB's in your inventory to score the required number of points - that was your advantage and you exploited it.

 

Other players don't have enough TB's in their inventory and have to do things properly in a worthwhile manner.

 

Owning/moving TBs is part of the game and Groundspeak set points for dropping them. There was no gaming going on.

 

Gaming might come into play if I was fake logging caches, or doing something else that was outside the actual rules/guidelines but the system couldn't detect and gave me the award anyway.

 

But that didnt happen. So again I point you back to what I said earlier. Not liking how someone plays the game is not grounds for accusing them of gaming the system.

Edited by funkymunkyzone
Typo
  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
9 minutes ago, funkymunkyzone said:

Gaming might come into play if I was fake logging caches, or doing something else that was outside the actual rules/guidelines but the system couldn't detect and gave me the award anyway.

 

But that didnt happen. So again I point you back to what I said earlier. Not liking how someone plays the game is not grounds for accusing them of gaming the system.

 

Which forces me to remind you that system gaming, by definition, is done WITHIN the existing rules.

 

Apologies if I didn't make that clear enough in my earlier post.

 

You gamed the system to make sure you got the souvenir then later satisfied the expected objectives.

 

ETA: There's an important distinction between gaming and outright cheating 😉

Edited by Team Microdot
Addition

Share this post


Link to post

No, you are missing the point.

If GS says if you do *this* you score x points, so you go ahead and do that and score the points, it is not gaming the system.

 

Furthermore, I gained no advantage over anyone else. I had zero effect on anyone else gaining the souvenir in question. There was no race that I won or any other reward for scoring the souvenir other than the same souvenir everyone else got.

 

Frankly it's no different than someone going out and doing a 100 cache power trail to earn all the mythical creatures in one go. According to your theory, having those caches available to them was an advantage, so they gamed the system, instead of traipsing all over the countryside getting caches and creatures one by one, like a lot of us had to.

 

I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this one. I didnt play the way you would have liked me to so your opinion is I gamed the system.

  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
1 minute ago, funkymunkyzone said:

No, you are missing the point.

If GS says if you do *this* you score x points, so you go ahead and do that and score the points, it is not gaming the system.

 

Furthermore, I gained no advantage over anyone else. I had zero effect on anyone else gaining the souvenir in question. There was no race that I won or any other reward for scoring the souvenir other than the same souvenir everyone else got.

 

Frankly it's no different than someone going out and doing a 100 cache power trail to earn all the mythical creatures in one go. According to your theory, having those caches available to them was an advantage, so they gamed the system, instead of traipsing all over the countryside getting caches and creatures one by one, like a lot of us had to.

 

I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this one. I didnt play the way you would have liked me to so your opinion is I gamed the system.

 

No - you gamed the system as per the accepted definition of gaming the system.

 

I love it when people tell me I've missed the point just because I disagree with them. I haven't missed the point at all - it's just that your point doesn't correspond with the facts.

 

You had an advantage. It was easier and quicker for you to gain that souvenir than everyone who didn't have that advantage.

 

I'll agree with you that because there was no race your system gaming had no net effect on other participants but that still doesn't remove the fact that leveraged your advantage to game the system.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
2 minutes ago, Team Microdot said:

 

No - you gamed the system as per the accepted definition of gaming the system.

 

I love it when people tell me I've missed the point just because I disagree with them. I haven't missed the point at all - it's just that your point doesn't correspond with the facts.

 

You had an advantage. It was easier and quicker for you to gain that souvenir than everyone who didn't have that advantage.

 

I'll agree with you that because there was no race your system gaming had no net effect on other participants but that still doesn't remove the fact that leveraged your advantage to game the system.

 

 

No, you are most definitely missing the point.

 

Do this action, earn these points. I did the action and earned the points, as instructed.

 

I wasnt given the tbs, nor did I steal them or get tb codes off the internet, or any other unintended means. They are as much a part of the game as a 100 cache powertrail nearby some other cachers house.

 

Now please, just agree to disagree and let the discussion move on.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
1 minute ago, funkymunkyzone said:

 

Now please, just agree to disagree and let the discussion move on.

 

I can't as long as you incorrectly state that I've missed your point - that isn't the case at all.

 

I will though just leave it that I completely disagree with you and believe that you've completely missed the distinction between cheating and gaming the system and in fact misunderstood what gaming the system means.

 

We can move on now if you like.

Share this post


Link to post
42 minutes ago, funkymunkyzone said:

Do this action, earn these points. I did the action and earned the points, as instructed.

 

I guess the questions I’d ask are:  Did you handle your TBs differently for the purpose of the promotion, i.e. dropping and retrieving, when you’d usually just log a visit?  And if so, is this the behaviour that you think Groundspeak were intending to reward?

 

If Yes/No, no problem to me, you’ve earned the points for the souvenir, but I’d say, that was ‘gaming the system’.

 

Edited by IceColdUK
Typo
  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
55 minutes ago, IceColdUK said:

 

I guess the questions I’d ask are:  Did you handle your TBs differently for the purpose of the promotion, i.e. dropping and retrieving, when you’d usually just log a visit?  And if so, is this the behaviour that you think Groundspeak were intending to reward?

 

If Yes/No, no problem to me, you’ve earned the points for the souvenir, but I’d say, that was ‘gaming the system’.

 

How is that relevant?

 

Groundspeak is trying to encourage a change in behaviour with these souvenir promotions, namely for people who font cache much to cache more.

 

Are you suggesting that if someone changes their behaviour due to this promotion they are gaming the system?

 

Seems very odd to suggest that you're only allowed to get the souvenir, in the spirit intended, by caching normally as you would without the souvenir promotion, and otherwise you are gaming the system. Bizarre.

 

As I said, GS set the scoring - do this, score points. I didnt manipulate the rules to score points in an unintended way. Therefore no gaming the system.

 

  • Upvote 3

Share this post


Link to post
18 minutes ago, funkymunkyzone said:

How is that relevant?

 

Groundspeak is trying to encourage a change in behaviour with these souvenir promotions, namely for people who font cache much to cache more.

 

Are you suggesting that if someone changes their behaviour due to this promotion they are gaming the system?

 

Seems very odd to suggest that you're only allowed to get the souvenir, in the spirit intended, by caching normally as you would without the souvenir promotion, and otherwise you are gaming the system. Bizarre.

 

As I said, GS set the scoring - do this, score points. I didnt manipulate the rules to score points in an unintended way. Therefore no gaming the system.

 

 

Nothing bizarre about it although I admit that by deviating from the specific facts to a gross generalisation it almost sounds convincing.

 

The specific way you used the TB's in your inventory amounted to gaming the system.

 

I note that you've understood Groundspeak's motivation and hence the intent behind the souvenir as wanting people to cache more rather than to sit at home and get a souvenir simply by virtually dipping a mass of TB's. This leads me to believe that you understand the difference between the expectation and the response.

Edited by Team Microdot
Surplus word
  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
22 minutes ago, funkymunkyzone said:

As I said, GS set the scoring - do this, score points. I didnt manipulate the rules to score points in an unintended way. Therefore no gaming the system.

 

If you think that Groundspeak were trying to encourage us to drop/retrieve TBs in caches (instead of using the more appropriate ‘visit’ functionality), then fair enough.

 

I think they wanted us to get out caching more ... and to move TBs along while we were doing it.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Just now, IceColdUK said:

If you think that Groundspeak were trying to encourage us to drop/retrieve TBs in caches (instead of using the more appropriate ‘visit’ functionality), then fair enough.

 

Just to add, I’m not saying it’s wrong, and I’m not saying Groundspeak didn’t consider the possibility, I just don’t believe it was their intention.

 

Not looking for a fight. 😉

Share this post


Link to post
5 hours ago, IceColdUK said:

If you think that Groundspeak were trying to encourage us to drop/retrieve TBs in caches (instead of using the more appropriate ‘visit’ functionality), then fair enough.

 

A little OT, but IIRC "Drop off" has been on a few promotions now.   

I did think maybe they might be "hinting" for trackables to actually be dropped (and not "dipped" as Visit is now). 

 - Sort of a "we created this monster, so how do we fix it..."  thing .  :)

Share this post


Link to post
6 hours ago, Team Microdot said:

The specific way you used the TB's in your inventory amounted to gaming the system.

 

Ok, I thought we'd moved on but ok, I'll come back for one last post on the topic.

 

Well they are MY TBs (note MINE, not simply my inventory) so I believe I can log them as I wish. I paid for them, I own them, I do whatever I want with them.

 

Often when I visit a new country I log them through a cache there too. Perhaps you'll tell me I'm not allowed to do that either, or is that only during souvenir promotions?

 

6 hours ago, Team Microdot said:

I note that you've understood Groundspeak's motivation and hence the intent behind the souvenir as wanting people to cache more rather than to sit at home and get a souvenir simply by virtually dipping a mass of TB's. This leads me to believe that you understand the difference between the expectation and the response.

 

Actually I do fully understand Groundspeaks motivation and intent for these souvenir promotions, but I suggest you've not quite understood it. Their intent is to get people who dont cache very much at all to go out participate in more caching activity, be it finding, attending events, or logging trackables. You can go find Moun10bike's post on the subject.

 

At 11500 finds and having been a premium member for donkeys years, I already cache well beyond the level of their target market for the promotion. So nothing I do to earn or not earn a souvenir has anything to do with Groundspeaks intent, or therefore, gaming the system. If it did then you should also be admonishing those who have stated they wont go caching during souvenir promotion periods so that they dont earn the souvenirs - that is, if changing behaviour and doing something Groundspeak (according to your expert opinion) did not intend.

 

Now, if you cant resist the urge to continue to vilify me for playing the game Groundspeak put in front of us, perhaps you can enlighten all of us as to what are all the unwritten rules.... that Groundspeak never came up with and never intended.

 

 

Edited by funkymunkyzone

Share this post


Link to post
8 hours ago, IceColdUK said:

I guess the questions I’d ask are:  Did you handle your TBs differently for the purpose of the promotion, i.e. dropping and retrieving, when you’d usually just log a visit?  And if so, is this the behaviour that you think Groundspeak were intending to reward?

 

But couldn't the same argument be used against someone who goes out to find a cache which they wouldn't normally have gone out for (either due to time/availability/location/etc.) thats searching for caches differently for the purpose of the promotion.

 

And as a general response - NOT particularly aimed at @IceColdUK :-

 

Isn't the whole promotion to get people to go do things differently (i.e. encourage people to participate when they might otherwise not have). Groundspeak decided logging TBs is part of the promotion so I can't see how anyone doing that can be accused of "gaming the system". I think some people need to get away from the keyboard for a bit and get out.

 

 

  • Upvote 3

Share this post


Link to post
1 hour ago, funkymunkyzone said:

 

Ok, I thought we'd moved on but ok, I'll come back for one last post on the topic.

 

Well they are MY TBs (note MINE, not simply my inventory) so I believe I can log them as I wish. I paid for them, I own them, I do whatever I want with them.

 

Often when I visit a new country I log them through a cache there too. Perhaps you'll tell me I'm not allowed to do that either, or is that only during souvenir promotions?

 

 

Actually I do fully understand Groundspeaks motivation and intent for these souvenir promotions, but I suggest you've not quite understood it. Their intent is to get people who dont cache very much at all to go out participate in more caching activity, be it finding, attending events, or logging trackables. You can go find Moun10bike's post on the subject.

 

At 11500 finds and having been a premium member for donkeys years, I already cache well beyond the level of their target market for the promotion. So nothing I do to earn or not earn a souvenir has anything to do with Groundspeaks intent, or therefore, gaming the system. If it did then you should also be admonishing those who have stated they wont go caching during souvenir promotion periods so that they dont earn the souvenirs - that is, if changing behaviour and doing something Groundspeak (according to your expert opinion) did not intend.

 

Now, if you cant resist the urge to continue to vilify me for playing the game Groundspeak put in front of us, perhaps you can enlighten all of us as to what are all the unwritten rules.... that Groundspeak never came up with and never intended.

 

 

 

So you've changed your mind now about what Groundspeak intended?

 

I'm not trying to vilify you for anything. I simply disagree with you. It's a perfectly natural human behaviour that happens all around the world every single day.

 

Congrats though on all those finds.

Share this post


Link to post
10 minutes ago, Team Microdot said:

 

So you've changed your mind now about what Groundspeak intended?

 

 

Not even the slightest bit.

Share this post


Link to post
5 minutes ago, funkymunkyzone said:
18 minutes ago, Team Microdot said:

 

So you've changed your mind now about what Groundspeak intended?

 

 

Not even the slightest bit.

 

8 hours ago, funkymunkyzone said:

Groundspeak is trying to encourage a change in behaviour with these souvenir promotions, namely for people who font cache much to cache more.

 

I assume you meant don't rather than font.

Share this post


Link to post
1 hour ago, MartyBartfast said:

Isn't the whole promotion to get people to go do things differently (i.e. encourage people to participate when they might otherwise not have). Groundspeak decided logging TBs is part of the promotion so I can't see how anyone doing that can be accused of "gaming the system". I think some people need to get away from the keyboard for a bit and get out.

 

That's a good one - that made me chuckly - sitting at the keyboard mocking other people for sitting at the keyboard 😂

 

There's a clear definition of gaming the system and central to that definition is that such practices are within the rules. It's such a simple point I can't believe we are still discussing it.

Share this post


Link to post
8 hours ago, funkymunkyzone said:

Groundspeak is trying to encourage a change in behaviour with these souvenir promotions, namely for people who [don't] cache much to cache more.

 

 

3 minutes ago, Team Microdot said:

I assume you meant don't rather than font.

 

Correct.  Now I have boldened the important bit for you.

 

Now please, enough already.

 

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
1 minute ago, Team Microdot said:

 

That's a good one - that made me chuckly - sitting at the keyboard mocking other people for sitting at the keyboard 😂

 

There's a clear definition of gaming the system and central to that definition is that such practices are within the rules. It's such a simple point I can't believe we are still discussing it.

 

There is a clear definition.

"manipulate the system"

"drive behaviors that are detrimental to long-term organizational success and stifle competition"

"undermining and dismantling of corrupt or oppressive organisations"

(wikipedia)

 

Logging TBs does none of those, so please, give it a rest.

 

Share this post


Link to post
1 minute ago, funkymunkyzone said:
8 hours ago, funkymunkyzone said:

Groundspeak is trying to encourage a change in behaviour with these souvenir promotions, namely for people who [don't] cache much to cache more.

 

 

6 minutes ago, Team Microdot said:

I assume you meant don't rather than font.

 

Correct.  Now I have boldened the important bit for you.

 

Now please, enough already.

 

Which changed to

 

2 hours ago, funkymunkyzone said:

Actually I do fully understand Groundspeaks motivation and intent for these souvenir promotions, but I suggest you've not quite understood it. Their intent is to get people who dont cache very much at all to go out participate in more caching activity, be it finding, attending events, or logging trackables.

 

Just for my own sanity really. I was pretty certain you'd changed your mind about what Groundspeak intended and I wasn't wrong.

 

Glad I'm not losing my marbles 😊

Share this post


Link to post
Just now, Team Microdot said:

 

Which changed to

 

 

Just for my own sanity really. I was pretty certain you'd changed your mind about what Groundspeak intended and I wasn't wrong.

 

Glad I'm not losing my marbles 😊

 

Are you struggling at reading?

 

Seriously, let it go!  I'm out.

 

8 hours ago, funkymunkyzone said:

Groundspeak is trying to encourage a change in behaviour with these souvenir promotions, namely for people who [don't] cache much to cache more.

 

2 hours ago, funkymunkyzone said:

 

Their intent is to get people who dont cache very much at all to go out participate in more caching activity, be it finding, attending events, or logging trackables.

Share this post


Link to post
15 hours ago, funkymunkyzone said:

I dont think it was even gaming the system - I think that's a term all too often thrown about by those who simply disagree with how someone else plays within the framework set by GS. Really, TB drops probably shouldn't score anything, but since they do, then you cant blame someone for using it. That's like arguing that drop goals in rugby are lame, and teams that use them to score and win are gaming the system - nope, thems the rules set by the governing body.

 

Right, using the mechanics they provide to achieve what they intend for you to achieve isn't gaming the system. It's doing exactly what they set out as a manner to accomplish the goal they provided.

 

I just think the methods for accomplishing the goal aren't consistent with the theme they're promoting.  Drop some point options, and keep the appropriately themed scoring methods.

 

The issue isn't how one achieves the souvenir - do it any way they provide to do it (there's nothing saying you should only drop for 50% of your points, eg) - and you're not gaming the system. Find an alternative allowable way to achieve the goal, and then you'd be gaming the system. But the rules for this case aren't flexible. You have specific options to earn points, and no instruction for how to execute those options. Therefore it can be inferred safely that if you earn points, however you earn them, you're doing it the way they intended.

 

 

...I just think their methods aren't consistent fully with the theme. Logging 70 trackables isn't being a "social butterfly". Finding 7 LPCs isn't an "adrenaline junkie".  But... doing those things was part of the intended way to earn the souvenir. So not gaming the system.

Just putting my 2c in, and not going to get into the debate.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
12 minutes ago, thebruce0 said:

Find an alternative allowable way to achieve the goal, and then you'd be gaming the system. 

 

X) This way of achieving the goal isn't gaming the system because it's allowable

 

Y) This other, equally allowable way of achieving the goal IS gaming the system.

 

Does not compute.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
2 minutes ago, Team Microdot said:
18 minutes ago, thebruce0 said:

Find an alternative allowable way to achieve the goal, and then you'd be gaming the system. 

 

X) This way of achieving the goal isn't gaming the system because it's allowable

 

Y) This other, equally allowable way of achieving the goal IS gaming the system.

 

Does not compute. 

 

Nope.

Here's how you can achieve goal: A, B, C, and D.

(finds alternative way E not promoted or condoned but allowable) - Gaming the system.

For this souvenir, A, B, C, and D are the only ways to earn the souvenir.  Using method D is not gaming the system. I'd be very interested to hear if someone finds a method E to earn the souvenir.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
1 hour ago, thebruce0 said:

...I just think their methods aren't consistent fully with the theme. Logging 70 trackables isn't being a "social butterfly". Finding 7 LPCs isn't an "adrenaline junkie".  But... doing those things was part of the intended way to earn the souvenir. So not gaming the system.

Just putting my 2c in, and not going to get into the debate.

 

Yes, to be a "true" social butterfly and get the souvenir just by attending events, one would have to attend five of them. That might be fine for those living in big cities where there are events every other day, but in other places that's a tall order. In my region (New South Wales Central Coast) there are no events coming up during the souvenir period; the only ones within 40km of home are two in northwestern Sydney and getting to them by road is about twice that distance. So while I was able to get the Junkie souvenir from just three high D/T caches, and got three 10+ FP caches on my way to the Connoisseur one, if I get the Butterfly it'll most likely be through non-event finds (7 10+ FP caches, 14 mundane caches or some other such combination). But I guess that'd be gaming the system too.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
1 hour ago, barefootjeff said:

So while I was able to get the Junkie souvenir from just three high D/T caches, and got three 10+ FP caches on my way to the Connoisseur one, if I get the Butterfly it'll most likely be through non-event finds (7 10+ FP caches, 14 mundane caches or some other such combination). But I guess that'd be gaming the system too.

 

No, as per my comment above, Groundspeak has defined the ways to get the souvenir - and that includes finding only mundane caches (it was this way for all of them so far). It's (in my opinion) an inconsistent way to get the souvenir given the souvenir's theme, but it's not gaming the system: Groundspeak has outright defined what is required to get the souvenir - and that includes finding only mundane caches. It's not gaming the system, it's an intended way to get the souvenir.

I think the decision to allow that way is inconsistent and pretty dumb (themed souvenirs should require themed qualifications), but I'm not Groundspeak.

You're not gaming the system by finding mundane caches for the social butterfly souvenir - that's one of the ways Groundspeak has let you earn the souvenir. (perhaps to allow for geocachers in your situation, having very few events to earn the souvenir; I still think it's inconsistent of them though =P)

  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
6 hours ago, thebruce0 said:

I'd be very interested to hear if someone finds a method E to earn the souvenir.

 

That's easy - it would be virtually dipping a load of TB's from the comfort of one's armchair in order to amass the required points.

 

It's fundamentally no different than logging a cache in another country that you never visited in order to get a souvenir.

 

Share this post


Link to post

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 3

×