Suggestion: Opt-in souvenirs

[+thebruce0]

I know souvenirs are based on legacy code and whatnot, but ... given the current rate of souvenir promotions and the dramatic difference souvenirs have from their original intent (collectible location-based memories):

 

Why not provide the option for people to opt in to these challenge-style souvenirs, especially since they seem to be getting awarded with little to no effort from the vast majority of geocachers. I've seen numerous people, even outside the forum, desire to remove souvenirs, not just hide them, or not even be considered for getting them because don't want to "earn" anythign except by them willingly and knowingly doing it (like, you know, visiting a new country to get its souvenir).

 

Personally, I love the idea of rewards for promotional challenges, so I don't want to see GS stop rewarding something for motivational periodic themes or corporate partnerships and whatnot. They're a business and need to 'keep current' -- but, imo, not at the expense of a system that already works where additions actually sour the experience for people who don't want to be a part of it.

 

Opt out would be one thing, but if GS doesn't want to encourage competitive behaviour, then why not make things like goals and challenges to earn things opt in?

 

 

This current promo is a prime example. I can't imagine how many people worldwide have already qualified, since the absolute minimum to get the souvenir is 6x 1/1 caches at 9 points each.  I understand the theme should be the motivation, but the souvenir loses most if not all of its actual meaning if most if not everyone in the world is going to have it for their profile by the time the month is done.

 

The tiered approach to HiddenCreatures was a big step in the right direction. But even then I heard people complain that they didn't want the souvenirs (usually on principle though), citing that their regular caching habits would still earn them a bunch throughout the period.

 

If a new system is being developed (or considered, or conceptualized) for reward/challenge-based souvenirs, then please consider making a certain type of souvenir (or even all of them) opt in.

[+K13]

An "Opt In" option would be good.  My only way to opt-out of those souvenir promotions I didn't want to earn, was to stop caching for the period.

[+cerberus1]

Yep. 

Getting a little sick of not caching just because yet-another promotion's going on, and we get souvenirs we didn't ask for,  and people we never heard of asking to be their "friend".

I find it kind of odd that a company that used to believe that everyone has different interests in the hobby would force people to play their marketing promotions, like it or not.   I can't make a challenge cache that would change people's caching habits...

 

This  "friends league"  is a perfect example.  We have friends.  They don't email asking us to be added to a list we have no use for.

Our friends we already have in our phones and email.  They're actually friends, and they aren't on some friends list either.

 

A step further, please allow us to either opt in, or out of these promotions.  Thanks.

[+thebruce0]

I don't mind the existence of the friends list. But per my original post, the implementation of points jusing friends has kind of redefined what the friends list actually is. Having to actually keep track of your friends is a natural extension of the Friends feature, which until recently didn't really have any practical use other than maybe having a quick list of profiles to get to.

So, regardless of the friends list, I'd like to see souvenirs (some if not all) be an opt-in membership feature.

[Keystone]

You can hide souvenirs that you don't want displayed.

You can write to Geocaching HQ to request removal of a souvenir altogether.

 

Remember "Haunted Hides?"  That was an opt-in promotion for a profile badge.

[+Goldenwattle]

2 hours ago, Keystone said:

You can hide souvenirs that you don't want displayed.

You can write to Geocaching HQ to request removal of a souvenir altogether.

 

Remember "Haunted Hides?"  That was an opt-in promotion for a profile badge.

If I hide them, can I get them back? If I ever want to that is. The only souvenirs that interest me, are country/state ones.

[+hzoi]

3 hours ago, Goldenwattle said:

If I hide them, can I get them back? If I ever want to that is. The only souvenirs that interest me, are country/state ones.

 

You can hide and un-hide any souvenirs on your profile; I've done it just to test it out.  Once hidden, it is not gone forever; you can change your mind and display it again.

[+Goldenwattle]

49 minutes ago, hzoi said:

 

You can hide and un-hide any souvenirs on your profile; I've done it just to test it out.  Once hidden, it is not gone forever; you can change your mind and display it again.

Thank you I tried that. But it's useless, as they are still there, only fainter. I would like them out of sight, but with the option of getting them back if I changed my mind. Fading is not hidden!

[+hzoi]

2 minutes ago, Goldenwattle said:

54 minutes ago, hzoi said:

You can hide and un-hide any souvenirs on your profile; I've done it just to test it out.  Once hidden, it is not gone forever; you can change your mind and display it again.

Thank you I tried that. But it's useless, as they are still there, only fainter. I would like them out of sight, but with the option of getting them back if I changed my mind. Fading is not hidden!

 

OK - you'd like not to see them, either, not just hide them from others.  You'd need to ask Groundspeak to delete them for you.

[+Goldenwattle]

1 minute ago, hzoi said:

 

OK - you'd like not to see them, either, not just hide them from others.  You'd need to ask Groundspeak to delete them for you.

I don't want them deleted (in case I change my mind), just hidden. Only the travel souvenirs mean anything to me.

[+hzoi]

1 hour ago, Goldenwattle said:

1 hour ago, hzoi said:

OK - you'd like not to see them, either, not just hide them from others.  You'd need to ask Groundspeak to delete them for you.

I don't want them deleted (in case I change my mind), just hidden. Only the travel souvenirs mean anything to me.

Then you're asking for an option that does not currently exist.  Given that this is a feature request thread, that's apropos, so I'll just quit typing about n

[+Goldenwattle]

As well as hiding souvenirs (but being able to get them back), I would also like to be able to arrange the country/state souvenirs as I wanted, rather than in alphabetical order. For instance, my country first, then keep states from other parts of the world together, such as US states together, etc. Countries from the same continent together and so on...

Edited September 6, 2018 by Goldenwattle

[+thebruce0]

There are discussions for features requested in the souvenirs display page, especially sorting (which would be nice) - but this one's specific to make souvenirs opt-in.

 

Yeah, I know that souvenirs can be hidden, and that they are hidden from the public profile view and only fainted in your own souvenir management page, so I know that is an option which has been around for a long time. But I'm still suggesting the very very user- and community-friendly option to opt in to receiving them in the first place.

 

It seems backwards to, effectively, force everyone to participate in a goal-oriented reward campaign even if people don't want to (or making them do extra work to retroactively hide themselves from it).  It's like setting up a start and finish line on the sidewalk between the office and the coffee shop and forcing everyone who runs or just merely walks to get coffee to go through an awards ceremony and receive their medallion for finishing the race. But they can just throw it away once the hullaballoo is done.

 

It just seems backward for the concept of "souvenirs".

And I'm absolutely all for both the concept of earning location-based souvenirs AND goal-oriented rewards - it's just getting to the point where it seems ridiculous now with two ideas in practice that seem at odds with each other, and with plenty of people complaining about it, that nothing is being done to provide the option for people to have a better experience.

 

So, that's why this is a suggestion - please look into the option to allow people to opt in to running any souvenir reward race they'd otherwise be forced to participate in.

 

For those who would play anyway, it adds value because then not everyone is going to receive it if they don't want to or won't try.

 

This current promo, while I love the theme, just seems so over the top in implementation. Hidden Creatures was great! Prior promos garnered some criticism for their ease of attained souvenirs, so it seemed like a step forward, but then this 6x 1/1's in a month for "Adrenaline Junkie" is like a huge leap backwards...

 

I'm not saying the concepts are bad, I'm just asking - can we find a way to add some value and make the experience better? WIthout telling people to do more work if they don't like it, when there's a relatively easy long-term solution to make everyone happy?

 

"Next month: Are you a Caching Connoisseur?  Take up the challenge and earn this souvenir you can show to your friends and the world that you've got what it takes! Click here to participate"

 

Boom, done. (with a bit of dev time; like, a couple of database flags 'n stuff*)

 

* I know it's not a snap of the fingers, and I don't know the inner-workings of the GS infrastructure, but I am a web app dev, I understand conceptually how much work is required to implement something like that

[+cerberus1]

11 hours ago, Keystone said:

You can hide souvenirs that you don't want displayed.

You can write to Geocaching HQ to request removal of a souvenir altogether.

 

Remember "Haunted Hides?"  That was an opt-in promotion for a profile badge.

 

"Hiding" souvenirs merely removes it from public view.  You still see it as a faded souvenir on your profile page

I've asked HQ for souvenir deletion, and so far they've been really nice about it too.  I don't however,  feel I should have to ask to keep removing something I'm not even interested in. 

 

I don't remember "haunted hides" and might have even participated.   I just go.  The other 2/3rds is the navigator telling me "where". 

 - But if there's already precedent, with a known method to "opt in", it'd be nice if it was the standard method for all future promotions.

[+NYPaddleCacher]

7 hours ago, hzoi said:

 

You can hide and un-hide any souvenirs on your profile; I've done it just to test it out.  Once hidden, it is not gone forever; you can change your mind and display it again.

 

That only changes whether or not the souvenir is displayed to others when they look at your profile.   It sounds like what some what is the ability to opt-in to specific promotions so that they don't get any souvenirs associated with the promotion.

 

I've suggested an opt-in feature that is more a "claiming" mechanism.   If someone qualifies for a souvenir, rather than just add it to their profile, send an email or message to the Messaging Center (depending on the users preferences) with just has a link to "claim" the souvenir.  Do nothing (other than delete the message) and you won't get the souvenir.  Click on the link and it'll add the souvenir to your profile.   Somehow the system would have to keep track of whether they want to be asked again if they re-qualify for a specific souvenir.   For example, if  a promotion awards a souvenir for obtaining 10 "points", but the user chooses not to claim the souvenir, they probably don't want to be asked if they want to claim it again when they get "11 points".  On the other hand, if someone inadvertently posts a found it log on a cache in some country they've never visited (or found a cache in), they might want to claim that souvenir if they visit the country and find a cache there sometime in the future.

[anpefi]

18 hours ago, thebruce0 said:

It seems backwards to, effectively, force everyone to participate in a goal-oriented reward campaign even if people don't want to (or making them do extra work to retroactively hide themselves from it).  It's like setting up a start and finish line on the sidewalk between the office and the coffee shop and forcing everyone who runs or just merely walks to get coffee to go through an awards ceremony and receive their medallion for finishing the race. But they can just throw it away once the hullaballoo is done.

 

 

I'm with you in all the rationale.

However, I believe, from the perspective of those who do not want souvenirs, that it would be better to opt out than opt in. I will try to explain it.

 

With opt in those who do not want souvenirs we would be happy because we would not have to do anything actively. But surely many would protest that they do not read the changes / mails and it could be that they missed the opportunity to win that souvenir they really wanted. Surely the option could be taken retroactively, but I suppose that supposes an extra work programming of the databases. I think that in the end there would be more complaints by people who failed to make the opt in than current complaints about eliminating souvenirs.

 

With opt out, the burden of doing something actively resides in those who really want to have nothing to do with souvenirs. In this case I think we are a minority. With a general option of "do you want souvenirs?" plus a link to opt out each promotion in particular (in case you have not said no to the general question) I think it would be easier for everyone. Those of us who do not want any souvenirs, we would only have to mark the option once. Those who simply do not want certain souvenirs associated with specific promotions simply have to be alert when those promotions are announced. For the rest of people, life would remain the same.

[+thebruce0]

Hm... if it's implemented as an 'opt out' for a promotion, whether before/during/after, then... if the souvenir has already been rewarded it should be completely removed, not just hidden, in order to have the same effect. I wouldn't be opposed to that.

 

I can see what you mean about possibly missing souvenir promotions. It's like in temperate weather, it's easier to take off a jacket if you're too hot than to put one on if you're too cold but don't have one. =P

 

I guess the technical implementation would be - everyone has a non-participation, or opt out flag per souvenir, the defaulted being participation (non-existent) for every promotion. If there's no opt out flag, then the associated souvenir could be awarded if the conditions are met.  If the user opts out and declines the participation, then it won't be awarded if it hasn't yet, and if it has then it'll be removed. A complete opt out.

 

That could apply retroactively to all prior souvenirs as well.  Instead of a "Delete souvenir" option, implementing an opt out flag (to be backwards compatible, since the default has always been and would be to participate in souvenirs/promotions, and there'd be fewer people setting opt out flags than opt in) would allow people to opt out of any existing souvenir they may already have.

And the ability to hide souvenirs wouldn't have to be removed either.

 

If you hide a souvenir you have, you can get it back later.

If you opt out of a souvenir, it's removed and qualifications are no longer checked; you won't get it back - unless you opt in again and the qualification conditions are still being tested so you could earn it in the future (eg, location souvenirs).

 

In other words...

 

For temporary promotions - if you opt out during the period, you could opt back in and still earn it.  If you opt back in after the promotion (assuming the option is still available, it would be pointless tho) you won't get it because the conditions are no longer being checked. If you opt out after the promotion having received the souvenir, you'll lose the souvenir and therefore will never get it back.

 

For permanent promotions (eg, regions) - if you opt out you won't receive the souvenir unless you opt back in, and you'll remove the souvenir if you've already got it.  If you opt back in  later then you can earn (or re-earn) the souvenir next time you log a find in that region since conditions are still being checked.

 

All people would need to know is that opting out of a souvenir is a sticky and definitive "No" to having the souvenir. Your caching stats won't be checked for receiving it, and having it means it'll be removed completely from your profile. Temporary removals are what Hiding is for.

 

[+hzoi]

Perhaps one opt-out option is for folks to hide these souvenirs and then only look at the public souvenir tab (and quit looking at the souvenir tab), rather than requesting programming resources be spent on something that has zero impact on geocaching itself and only serves to satisfy a few individuals' quibbles.

 

But again, I recognize that this is the place to suggest changes to the website, however individually tailored they might be.  I'm sure Groundspeak can determine whether this is a worthwhile use of programming resources with or without my two cents.

[+thebruce0]

Well, that argument can be made about any "suggestion".  I appreciate providing workarounds to a concern (I do that quite often as well) but to claim that it would otherwise be "wasteful" of resources merely because there is a workaround, isn't really helpful.  And the souvenir issue(s) in general have absolutely made a big ripple over the years.  So I'm just considering a possible solution that really, honestly, is not that enormous a resource hog as some other things that have been developed or suggested, even though it is essentially an aesthetic request.

 

For myself, I don't opt out of souvenirs, and don't really have a desire to; I don't mind having them or earning them. But I see how the system has SO much room for improvement, and I'm seeing the frustration in a rather significant portion of the community for their current implementation, and thought something along this line would be more feasible with some actual value to add to the concept of souvenirs (as opposed to merely finding a complex behind-the-scenes way to only delete souvenirs from the profile, which has been desired for years but denied because of the legacy complexity of their coding).   That value is - promoting souvenirs in a manner of "taking up the challenge" can motivate people who want them more, make them less prolific across the entire worldwide geocaching community and therefore also have more value, while also providing that very easy way for people who don't want them to not have them (not just by hiding them, a half-measure).

 

I appreciated the constructive alternative suggestion that works towards a similar outcome.  I like when discussion threads move forward that way.

[+MNTA]

Yesterday I got an opt-in friends league  on my iPhone app looks like they took your input.

 

Anyone else see this? I can't find any reference to it now.

Edited September 9, 2018 by MNTA

[+thebruce0]

Don't know what that functionality entails. I saw that pop up. If not clicking "Opt in" means you won't get the souvenir then maybe.  ANyone have any further info about what the 'opt in' does and doesn't do?  It showed up after the promo started - if you hit the X instead of opt in, does it remove the souvenir? Or is it practically just a reminder notification that the promo is on? Too unclear.

[+MartyBartfast]

On 06/09/2018 at 12:32 PM, Goldenwattle said:

Thank you I tried that. But it's useless, as they are still there, only fainter. I would like them out of sight, but with the option of getting them back if I changed my mind. Fading is not hidden!

If you hide them then they will be greyed out on this view https://www.geocaching.com/my/souvenirs.aspx  (reached by the souvenirs link on the sidebar of the dashboard), but they disappear on this view https://www.geocaching.com/p/default.aspx?tab=souvenirs#profilepanel (reached by the Souvenirs tab on your profile page - what everyone else sees)

[+Goldenwattle]

1 hour ago, MartyBartfast said:

If you hide them then they will be greyed out on this view https://www.geocaching.com/my/souvenirs.aspx  (reached by the souvenirs link on the sidebar of the dashboard), but they disappear on this view https://www.geocaching.com/p/default.aspx?tab=souvenirs#profilepanel (reached by the Souvenirs tab on your profile page - what everyone else sees)

But I want them hidden from my view, but not deleted. Mostly I am interested in the country and state souvenirs. Ideally, I would also like to be able to arrange them in the order I liked.

[+thebruce0]

1 hour ago, Goldenwattle said:

But I want them hidden from my view, but not deleted. Mostly I am interested in the country and state souvenirs. Ideally, I would also like to be able to arrange them in the order I liked.

 

There are other discussion threads for suggestions on how to clean up and organize the souvenir list; it's been a long-standing desire people have had to be able to sort in various ways.  Deleting from your view and not the public view is, I think, backwards. We hvae the ability to hide them from public view, but you still need a way to manage them, which means they will be visible on your souvenir management page. Hiding them from your view effectively is deleting them.

[+CAVinoGal]

16 hours ago, thebruce0 said:

Don't know what that functionality entails. I saw that pop up. If not clicking "Opt in" means you won't get the souvenir then maybe.  ANyone have any further info about what the 'opt in' does and doesn't do?  It showed up after the promo started - if you hit the X instead of opt in, does it remove the souvenir? Or is it practically just a reminder notification that the promo is on? Too unclear.

 

I saw this pop up as well, just once.  I hit X to close it without taking action; my Adrenaline Junkie souvenir is still on my profile (though not under "A", it's under "Y" for You might be...)  It hasn't shown up again. Looking back at the day I earned the souvenir (Sept. 6) and the day the pop up occured, it may have been the same day.  Or some point after I had already earned the 50 pts.  In any case, hitting X did not remove the souvenir; it seems to have had no effect.  Maybe the Opt in was for notifications if your Friends league buddies earned the souvenir?  I didn't read it thoroughly.

[+Goldenwattle]

12 hours ago, thebruce0 said:

Hiding them from your view effectively is deleting them.

Not if they go into another list.

[+thebruce0]

5 hours ago, Goldenwattle said:

17 hours ago, thebruce0 said:

Hiding them from your view effectively is deleting them.

Not if they go into another list.

Yes. If they develop another page to manage "deleted" souvenirs. But why have 3 non-deleted states? Visible, Publicly hidden, privately hidden, and completely deleted? I'm thinking this is moving into overkill.  Given the pages we have, if you hide them publicly, and then hide them privately, you are effectively deleting them. I don't think there's enough need to build a tertiary page to manage souvenirs you've hidden from your own souvenir management page. But that's my opinion.

[+Goldenwattle]

54 minutes ago, thebruce0 said:

Yes. If they develop another page to manage "deleted" souvenirs. But why have 3 non-deleted states? Visible, Publicly hidden, privately hidden, and completely deleted? I'm thinking this is moving into overkill.  Given the pages we have, if you hide them publicly, and then hide them privately, you are effectively deleting them. I don't think there's enough need to build a tertiary page to manage souvenirs you've hidden from your own souvenir management page. But that's my opinion.

Hiding them privately gives the option of changing ones mind. I have more countries and states than just three states.

[+thebruce0]

Changing your mind? About whether you want to see the souvenir in your own souvenir management page?

I honestly don't see the point in that redundant extra adminstrative step, but if that's something you really want, I'd suggest starting a thread for the request. This one's about how to implement the option to participate in souvenirs in the first place.

[+Goldenwattle]

25 minutes ago, thebruce0 said:

Changing your mind? About whether you want to see the souvenir in your own souvenir management page?

I honestly don't see the point in that redundant extra adminstrative step, but if that's something you really want, I'd suggest starting a thread for the request. This one's about how to implement the option to participate in souvenirs in the first place.

Basically I want the countries and states separate to the others, not mixed in.  I don't really care as much for the others, but being able to move the others to a different file, means I can still see them, but they won't interfere with the states and country ones.

[+thebruce0]

Sure, sorting or grouping and organizing souvenirs has been suggested in the past in other threads.

[+Team Christiansen]

2 minutes ago, thebruce0 said:

Sure, sorting or grouping and organizing souvenirs has been suggested in the past in other threads.

And finally acknowledged by a lackey in this topic:

Whether that results in some action or not remains to be seen.