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Lunch events


-CJ-

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I'm talking about events like these:

 

- An event on a highway while having some rest and a lunch with companions.

- An event in a local village near a big river in taiga during a 2-hour stop of a cruise ship.

- An event in a remote monastery deeply in woods/bogs.

- An event at a gas station right after the hosts crossed the border and entered the country.

- An event in a hotel lobby at 6am "because we're going to leave early".

 

Events are supposed to be a social side of the game. Geocachers meet, talk, exchange trackables, walk, spend time in a pub, whatever. It's usually quite clear if an event is published just for a souvenir in someone's profile. Formally, nothing is wrong with such "lunch events" in most cases but - in my opinion - this practice undermines the very idea of geocaching events. 

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1 hour ago, -CJ- said:

Geocachers meet, talk, exchange trackables, walk, spend time in a pub, whatever.

I don't see these requirements mentioned anywhere in the Guidelines.

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An Event Cache is a gathering of geocachers, focusing on the social aspect of geocaching. It is organized by geocachers, for geocachers and those interested in learning the game.

 

Kind of funny you should mention Pubs, as that is probably one of my least favorite locations for an Event.  I'd much rather meet outside in a Park or open space somewhere.

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I used to maintain a list of "events - nobody came"... I still have it, but no longer bother to update. Generally these are events at cruise stops in the Caribbean, or in remote places around the Florida coast.   Hosts are hoping someone comes,  or are oddly rather expecting it, as unlikely as it seems to anyone else.  And in some of the most unlikely places, sometimes someone else does come.

I have seen a change in events hosted in the Florida Keys - those used to be  be host + somebody , and often several others - enough tourists always for there to be another cacher, these days, it's quite often just host.  Miami too, a big city, where you'd expect locals or other caching tourists to attend,  can end up being a host only event. 

 

Of course, often these sorts of traveler hosted events are at odd hours on weekdays, where anyone who has a job can't make it. Whereas the locals host weekend, or weekday evening events - and understand that no one is excited to drive into the heart of downtown with its difficult parking for the old Virtuals - long since logged by all who live in the area.

 

QUOTE:... this practice undermines the very idea of geocaching events....

 

Yes, but likely the only one who notices much is you.  Most events,  most of the time are intended to be, "gatherings of geocachers".  Few ever see these events  that are really temporary virtuals, hosted for the souvenir  or smiley that are bothering you.  I don't know if thinking about it that way will help? it's how I've come to think of on this.

 

Edited by Isonzo Karst
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4 hours ago, -CJ- said:

- An event on a highway while having some rest and a lunch with companions.

- An event in a local village near a big river in taiga during a 2-hour stop of a cruise ship.

- An event in a remote monastery deeply in woods/bogs.

- An event at a gas station right after the hosts crossed the border and entered the country.

- An event in a hotel lobby at 6am "because we're going to leave early".

Most of those sound like interesting events to me. If I could attend, I would.

 

One I attended was at a coffee shop before work, before the organizer left for the airport. A handful of us sat around, talked, swapped trackables, and had a great time.

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I'd probably be all for an event in a remote monastery.  I have a relative in an order (phrased so it doesn't go to off topic forums... ;-), and the buildings and property are beautiful enough that it'd be cool to share (if possible) with others curious.    :)

 

We've attended a couple flash mobs, and  always wondered what role they played in anything with this hobby.   Play, then run away...

I like Isonzo Karst's  term "temporary virtual", as  that does sorta fit many "meet so and so just passing through!" events.

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6 hours ago, -CJ- said:

Events are supposed to be a social side of the game. Geocachers meet, talk, exchange trackables, walk, spend time in a pub, whatever. It's usually quite clear if an event is published just for a souvenir in someone's profile. Formally, nothing is wrong with such "lunch events" in most cases but - in my opinion - this practice undermines the very idea of geocaching events. 

 

I have the same feeling about these minimum effort events. For me it is easy to skip them but at the same time I have seen that traditional "real" events are less popular because the overall value of all events is degraded. There should be some sort of classification of events. For example 0,5 hour event should be "micro"-event and 1 hour could be "small" event. "Regular" events should be at least 2 hours etc.

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2 minutes ago, arisoft said:

There should be some sort of classification of events. For example 0,5 hour event should be "micro"-event and 1 hour could be "small" event. "Regular" events should be at least 2 hours etc.

Hmm... Well, we already have Giga-Events (5000+ attendees) and Mega-Events (500+ attendees). I guess the next tier would be 50+ attendees, and the tier below that would be 5+ attendees. But none of that really relates to duration.

 

The half-hour events I see are usually "get the Souvenir" events or quick "meet & greet" events for someone passing through the area. Most events seem to be an hour long. Events longer than an hour are rare.

 

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4 minutes ago, niraD said:

The half-hour events I see are usually "get the Souvenir" events or quick "meet & greet" events for someone passing through the area. Most events seem to be an hour long. Events longer than an hour are rare.

 

Agree, sorta.  Half hour or quick meet n greets I rarely even log anymore, unless it's for a souvenir day.

Most "hour" events last longer here though, some with drawings, games, and maybe potluck involved.

We've attended only a hand full of multiple-hour events, and most (like one on a fun tree-top adventure) the event is simply lunch/dinner before or afterwards.

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22 hours ago, -CJ- said:

Formally, nothing is wrong with such "lunch events" in most cases but - in my opinion - this practice undermines the very idea of geocaching events. 

 

I don't think so.  Generally, it’s easy enough to distinguish the ‘meet and greets’ held by tourists, from local community events, and it's up to you which (if any) you’d like to attend.

 

As an event organiser, I’m now 7-7: seven events close to home (as part of a monthly series within my county), and seven on my travels.

 

Of those, there’s only one that I’d describe as ‘dubious’ - on the beach in front of our hotel in Mexico.  (I left it a bit late to organise, and I really couldn’t be sure where we were going to be on any particular day of our holiday.)  In fact, two German guys walked almost 5 miles down the beach from their hotel, and we had a great chat.  Ok, not a  Mega, but an opportunity to meet some like-minded people that we’d not have had otherwise.

 

My event in Senegal was better attended, but I confess all eight attendees were members of my own family!  It was an honest attempt to meet up with some of the (very few) local cachers, held in a cracking spot for the whole evening, but it just didn’t work out. :-(

 

Before travelling to Jersey, I’d met the reviewer for the island (at an event near home).  Her views somewhat coincided with yours, hence: ‘Not Another Flash Event!’

 

From the cache page:

She also made her views on 'flash' events quite clear: so, instead of half an hour on the road outside the tattoo parlour in Saint Helier to get my smiley, I've been forced to organise a 'proper' event in a nice pub.

 

It was a great event, but ironically there were more people from my hometown there than locals.  And two more Germans!

 

Most recently, I’ve been to Denmark and Sweden for a short break.  The event just up from the Little Mermaid in Copenhagen was brilliantly attended - mostly Danes, but also a lady from the Netherlands and, yes, four more Germans!  Two days later, the event in Malmö wasn’t looking so healthy.  On the day, five of our new Danish friends drove over the bridge to join us again!

 

I agree these events can be hit or miss, but I certainly don’t regret any of the ones I’ve organised.

Edited by IceColdUK
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13 hours ago, niraD said:

The half-hour events I see are usually "get the Souvenir" events or quick "meet & greet" events for someone passing through the area. Most events seem to be an hour long. Events longer than an hour are rare.

 

Here almost every event is now half an hour. Also local events, not only meet and greet by visitors. I would like to filter those micro events from better events that takes at least one hour.

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I just don't understand why every little thing has to be complained about by somebody. Who cares how short or long an event is and how many people attend. I love them all. If I have room on my calendar and an interest in the venue then I'll attend. If not, I won't attend. Not about to let others enjoy their fun.

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Certainly to attend an event you read the cache page to know where and when (this is not like find the next nearest on the GPS).  And in doing so you can see the type of event and whether or not you are interested in attending.  I don't think a programmatic filter will help with that as much as your eyes and brain.

 

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In my opinion an event is when some people meet some other people. Perhaps some of you good people will oppose this idea too; I will appreciate this point of view and I think we just cannot go further then. bflentje, you're my absolute champion with your "why every little thing has to be complained about by somebody". I even clicked a green heart button to show how much I like this comment.

 

Let me drop a couple of clarifying sentences to my original post. It was about events when hosts initially have no intention/hope to meet other geocachers. I've taken part in wonderful .5 hour meet-and-greet events. On the other hand, when I host my own events I usually announce them to last for 30 minutes only; it's a guaranteed (and required) time for the logbook to be available. It's common that events are longer and that we move from the initial gathering point to some other location. So, it's not "a duration issue" I think.

 

Why I think it might be important: because of poor example and practice that pseudo-events demonstrate to cachers who think about hosting their own events for the first time. Really, why should I care about an "event" scheduled here? https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Рдейский_Успенский_монастырь#/maplink/0 Because no one will come. (niraD and cerberus1 will publish their notes probably but won't attend). Of course, I can imagine extraordinary situation when two geocaching teams compete in reaching the point as Amundsen and Scott did; and they both will be there and celebrate their achievement. However, it's highly unlikely, you know. And moreover, the majority of "lunch events" has nothing common with places of interests such as this wonderful old monastery.

 

IceColdUK, you wrote to longest comment (and I appreciate your effort) so I will take some time, hmmm, commenting it.

 

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Generally, it’s easy enough to distinguish the ‘meet and greets’ held by tourists, from local community events


 

 

I agree.

 

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As an event organiser, I’m now 7-7: seven events close to home (as part of a monthly series within my county), and seven on my travels.

 

I used to hold regular events in my city earlier; now I mostly do them on my travels. In the nearest half a month I will host as many as 4 events in Latvia and Lithuania.

 

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on the beach in front of our hotel in Mexico

 

I'm not sure about the exact situation with caches/geocachers in the area you're talking about. Did you really expect any guests at your event? If yes, than it's OK. If not, this is what I was talking about.

 

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It was an honest attempt to meet up with some of the (very few) local cachers

 

That's it. An honest attempt. I myself had two such "lone events" hosted in Voronezh, Russia, and (surprisingly) Istanbul, Turkey. Both were honest attempts: I knew for sure that there were geocachers in both cities, and I chose good time when people (supposedly) were not busy at work, and I also chose great locations in the downtown, and I even wrote to some of local cachers, and these events were not supposed to be in pubs, dear Touchstone, still no one came. Well, I did my best.
 

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The event just up from the Little Mermaid in Copenhagen was brilliantly attended


 

 

I ran into two cachers when looking for the box nearby. Is there a more popular touristic spot in the whole Denmark?

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On 04.08.2018 at 3:19 PM, Isonzo Karst said:

I have seen a change in events hosted in the Florida Keys - those used to be  be host + somebody , and often several others - enough tourists always for there to be another cacher, these days, it's quite often just host.  Miami too, a big city, where you'd expect locals or other caching tourists to attend,  can end up being a host only event. 

 

You seem to play for a long period of time and I see that you've hosted your own events too. So, how could you explain the change you mentioned?

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Thanks for the reply CJ.

 

32 minutes ago, -CJ- said:
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on the beach in front of our hotel in Mexico

 

I'm not sure about the exact situation with caches/geocachers in the area you're talking about. Did you really expect any guests at your event? If yes, than it's OK. If not, this is what I was talking about.

 

I’ll be honest, I do like to ‘tick off’ different cache types when I visit a country, so that is, of course, part of the motivation for hosting an event on my travels.  And I did describe the event in Mexico as ‘dubious’ - I certainly hoped we’d get some attendees (most likely other holidaymakers), but I’d be lying if I said I expected any.

 

In fact, my Senegal event was even less likely to get any attendees (other than my family) - there are only about 20 caches in the entire country, and these are mostly found (and owned) by travellers.

 

The difference between the two, was that the Mexican one was organised (at the last minute) for a time and place chosen purely for my own convenience; whereas in Senegal, we were set up for the whole evening in a spot fully deserving of a visit in its own right.

 

So, I am sort of agreeing with you: there are fewer merits to a self-serving event like my ‘The Mexican Standoff’ (http://coord.info/GC6XCJD) when compared to ‘Paris-Dakar, Really?’ (http://coord.info/GC7EP70).  However, at the first, I did get to meet some new and incredibly enthusiastic cachers; at the second, I was simply indulged and then mocked by my wonderful family! ;-)

 

I can see how an event that somehow seems designed to be ‘host-only’ might be a concern, but I’m still prepared to believe that the host would be delighted if somebody did show up. :-)

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2 hours ago, -CJ- said:
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on the beach in front of our hotel in Mexico

 

I'm not sure about the exact situation with caches/geocachers in the area you're talking about. Did you really expect any guests at your event? If yes, than it's OK. If not, this is what I was talking about.

 

I had posted a "will attend" log for an event about a half mile from a hotel I stayed at in Cancun.  The day before the event the EO posted that he would be unable to attend because his flight from Europe was cancelled.  He subsequently archived the event.  Cancun is a large vacation/tourist destination with dozens of hotels that very well may have a few geocachers there at any given time.  The one cache I did find was found the previous day.   

 

There is a geocacher in Addis Ababa, Ethiopia that has published at least a couple of events where no showed up.  I was hoping to attend one of them on WW flash mob day but was enroute to Addis from Istanbul at the time of the event.   If I ever go back to Addis (which is far from unlikely) I may have an event published just to have the opportunity to meet that one local geocacher. 

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My observation is that broadly there are more events posted, and fewer people attend them.  This increases the chance of any event being "host only", without regard to what the host intent was.  A monthly recurring and reasonably well attended restaurant event near me had only the host attend around Christmas. She no longer  schedules in December. 

 

It's particularly difficult for traveling cachers to try to host, as they often host at a tourist convenient location, and sometimes at a tourist convenient time - and there are no other geocaching tourists in the same place at the same time; while there may be  local  cachers, they will have seen many many such events, and  are no longer enthused.

 

I think those who host downtown Miami FL and FL Keys events genuinely expect attendees, failing to realize that there are many tourist hosted events every year. Locals are burnt out on such events, and the odds are long that there will be another geocacher in the same place at the same time.

 

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Perhaps if event owners were not allowed to log attended their own events then this kind of events would be much rarier. I know it is a question of semantics, but if owners cannot found what they hid, then they also cannot "attend" what they organize (their attendance is intrinsic to the event), and then hosting events should not increase found stats, only hide. Anyway, this is a minor issue that only would affect others in rare cases. 

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"Flash events" seem to be a new take on vacation caches, especially now that one can still log "attended" on one's own event but cannot otherwise log a cache one owns. 

 

I've yet to attend one, and I've yet to host one.  But overall, I find them less harmful than vacation caches -- after all, there is no need to maintain an illusion that there is a "local caretaker" looking after some cheapo geocache that disappears the second the original hider flies home and requires generations of throw-downs to "maintain."

 

From what I've seen, the reviewers do a pretty good job of weeding out those that are more obviously just for the benefit of the traveling geocachers to get a guaranteed find in whatever state our country they're visiting, such as attempting to host an event in an area that is only accessible to paying customers on a cruise.

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4 hours ago, -CJ- said:

here? https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Рдейский_Успенский_монастырь#/maplink/0 Because no one will come. (niraD and cerberus1 will publish their notes probably but won't attend).

 

Curious what you mean, not getting the implication of "publish notes but won't attend".  Please explain.  Thanks.    :)

I've attended well-over a hundred events to date, yet only logged 65.  Sounds (to me) the reverse of what you're saying, but not sure why you said it.

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2 hours ago, anpefi said:

Perhaps if event owners were not allowed to log attended their own events then this kind of events would be much rarier. I know it is a question of semantics, but if owners cannot found what they hid, then they also cannot "attend" what they organize (their attendance is intrinsic to the event), and then hosting events should not increase found stats, only hide. Anyway, this is a minor issue that only would affect others in rare cases. 

 The unintended consequence of this would be those folk who delight in looking for loopholes and gaming the system setting events they never intended to physically attend - well, why should they, they can't log that they attended and get a smiley ...

Instead of E.O. only events, there would be zero attendance events.

 

 I can't see how anyone without telepathic powers could distinguish a traveller setting a half hour speculative event in the hope of meeting any other cachers who happen to be nearby from a traveller setting a half hour event purely with the intention of getting a smiley for attending it, and not being interested in if  anyone turns up .

 

Short events, long events, indoors, out, home or away, in front of a tattoo studio, whatever,  if people  want to set them, and people want to attend, then why not have them. As with caches, you don't have to search for , or attend, the ones which do not appeal to you.

 

I don't much enjoy multi caches, and seldom bother with them, but I'm not going to argue they are bad and should be banned, other folk like them, and that's OK, I can  (and do) walk on by without regret.

 

 

 

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14 minutes ago, hal-an-tow said:

Short events, long events, indoors, out, home or away, in front of a tattoo studio, whatever,  if people  want to set them, and people want to attend, then why not have them. As with caches, you don't have to search for , or attend, the ones which do not appeal to you.

 

You are right. As a geocacher it does not matter what kind of events there is. You visit them only if you are interested for whaterver your reason is. It is the same with any type of caches.

 

But, it is important to express our feelings and tell what is going on here. My problem is that I can not easily notice events I would like to attend. I am using event notification system from PGC which alerts me when an event gets at least 10 will attend logs. There are many many events but only few of them alerts me and many times the alert comes after the event because so few players posts will attend logs.

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40 minutes ago, arisoft said:

There are many many events but only few of them alerts me and many times the alert comes after the event because so few players posts will attend logs.

 

Is this because everybody’s waiting for 10 ‘Will Attend’ logs? ;-)  It does become a bit of a ‘chicken and egg’ situation.  I’m inconsistent about logging WAs, but I think if more of us did, then events would probably be better attended.  1. If you log a WA you’ve made (something of) a commitment, and you’re more likely to actually attend.  2. Chances are that a good number of WAs will encourage more attendees.

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11 minutes ago, IceColdUK said:

I’m inconsistent about logging WAs, but I think if more of us did, then events would probably be better attended.  1. If you log a WA you’ve made (something of) a commitment, and you’re more likely to actually attend. 

 

Yep.   Even though I may not be able to attend, if I like the idea of the event, a WAs added.  We've skipped "better" events on the same day  published later, because we already "committed" to one earlier.

I email the TO if I can't make it.  Right now rain has been more than the ground can handle and we kinda got other things that need doing.    :) 

"Bail out" logs on the event page when you can't make it (I feel) affect the event as well.    Bugs me a bit to see "I can't make it..." notes ... like anyone was expecting them to, or others decision to go may depend on their presence.  :P

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7 hours ago, -CJ- said:

It was about events when hosts initially have no intention/hope to meet other geocachers.

I guess I should count myself fortunate that I've never seen this problem around here. Even for the early morning coffeehouse event (just four of us sitting around a Starbucks table) was created with the intention of meeting with other geocachers. Even the backwoods overnight backpacking CITO (an annual tradition in our state) is created with the intention of meeting with other geocachers (and doing CITO work for the park).

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3 hours ago, hal-an-tow said:

Short events, long events, indoors, out, home or away, in front of a tattoo studio, whatever,  if people  want to set them, and people want to attend, then why not have them. As with caches, you don't have to search for , or attend, the ones which do not appeal to you.

 

Whether one chooses to attend or not,  creating an event solely for the purpose of being able to get credit for a find in some new country or state, dilutes the purpose for which the geocaching event type was created.   Every time a event of that type is published it reinforces that gaming the system is an acceptable way to play the game.   By stating that. "if you don't like it, don't attend" it essentially condones the practice of taking advantage of a loophole.    

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53 minutes ago, NYPaddleCacher said:

 

Whether one chooses to attend or not,  creating an event solely for the purpose of being able to get credit for a find in some new country or state, dilutes the purpose for which the geocaching event type was created.   Every time a event of that type is published it reinforces that gaming the system is an acceptable way to play the game.   By stating that. "if you don't like it, don't attend" it essentially condones the practice of taking advantage of a loophole.    

 

AsI said immediately above the part of my post you quoted, 

"I can't see how anyone without telepathic powers could distinguish a traveller setting a half hour speculative event in the hope of meeting any other cachers who happen to be nearby from a traveller setting a half hour event purely with the intention of getting a smiley for attending it, and not being interested in if  anyone turns up . "

 

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1 hour ago, NYPaddleCacher said:

 

Whether one chooses to attend or not,  creating an event solely for the purpose of being able to get credit for a find in some new country or state, dilutes the purpose for which the geocaching event type was created.   Every time a event of that type is published it reinforces that gaming the system is an acceptable way to play the game.   By stating that. "if you don't like it, don't attend" it essentially condones the practice of taking advantage of a loophole.    

 

7 minutes ago, hal-an-tow said:

 

AsI said immediately above the part of my post you quoted, 

"I can't see how anyone without telepathic powers could distinguish a traveller setting a half hour speculative event in the hope of meeting any other cachers who happen to be nearby from a traveller setting a half hour event purely with the intention of getting a smiley for attending it, and not being interested in if  anyone turns up . "

 

 

Some relatives were on a Geocaching trip in Asia.  The decided to attend an event at 4 PM.  They were the only ones to attend.  The event owner logged later that he was late.  Checking his other forty events, that happened at least another time.  Most of his other events, he was the only one to attend.  

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1 hour ago, NYPaddleCacher said:

 

Whether one chooses to attend or not,  creating an event solely for the purpose of being able to get credit for a find in some new country or state, dilutes the purpose for which the geocaching event type was created.   Every time a event of that type is published it reinforces that gaming the system is an acceptable way to play the game.   By stating that. "if you don't like it, don't attend" it essentially condones the practice of taking advantage of a loophole.    

 

Preventing event owners from logging their own events would stop this, but IMHO, you’d lose a lot of great events along the way.

 

How can you determine ‘solely for the purpose’?  As I’ve admitted, part of my motivation is to attend events in ‘new’ countries, but I’m also genuinely keen to meet other cachers.  How can you tell that from an event listing?

 

Even assuming an event has been created solely for the purpose’, if people turn up and have a good time, is that not a good thing?

 

And if nobody turns up to an event, is that the fault of the host or just bad luck?

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3 hours ago, Harry Dolphin said:

 

 

Some relatives were on a Geocaching trip in Asia.  The decided to attend an event at 4 PM.  They were the only ones to attend.  The event owner logged later that he was late.  Checking his other forty events, that happened at least another time.  Most of his other events, he was the only one to attend.  

 

Wow, OK,  I can see how anyone without telepathic powers could distinguish a traveller setting a half hour speculative event in the hope of meeting any other cachers who happen to be nearby from a traveller setting forty half hour events purely with the intention of getting a smiley for attending it, and not being interested in if  anyone turns up :lol:

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Whilst they are not telepathic, I have seen reviewers question or fail to publish some events if they feel they are not in the correct "spirit".   A couple of examples:

 

1.  A friend tried to publish an event in a country he was visiting which had few, if any, geocachers.    The reviewer would not publish it for the reason he/she thought it very unlikely anyone other than the owner would attend.

 

2.  Locally, a cacher submitted a set of events called "filling in the gaps"  - where the descriptions stated the purpose was to fill days in his calendar grid.  The first set was published, but as he kept submitting more (and they started clashing with regular, well attended events), the reviewer put limits on how many per month they would allow from this cacher.  

 

As I live in a place where we have lots of tourists, we do get quite a few visiting cachers holding events.   Usually others attend.   Some of them I feel they could have made more effort to make it a time where they will likely get more attendees - e.g. a 30 minute event at 10:30 AM midweek isn't the most convenient for most locals.   But there may be a good reason they picked that time. 

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15 hours ago, hal-an-tow said:
16 hours ago, NYPaddleCacher said:

Whether one chooses to attend or not,  creating an event solely for the purpose of being able to get credit for a find in some new country or state, dilutes the purpose for which the geocaching event type was created.   Every time a event of that type is published it reinforces that gaming the system is an acceptable way to play the game.   By stating that. "if you don't like it, don't attend" it essentially condones the practice of taking advantage of a loophole.    

 

AsI said immediately above the part of my post you quoted, 

"I can't see how anyone without telepathic powers could distinguish a traveller setting a half hour speculative event in the hope of meeting any other cachers who happen to be nearby from a traveller setting a half hour event purely with the intention of getting a smiley for attending it, and not being interested in if  anyone turns up .

 

I agree that it would be nearly impossible to enforce the blocking of events created purely to obtain a smiley for the creator.  That's why with arisoft that it's important to express our feelings here.  If we all just say, "if you don't like it, don't attend" it essentially condones the gaming of the system.  If, instead, more people would speak up and say "this isn't an acceptable way to play the game.  Events are for the purposes of meeting and socializing with other cachers."  some might think twice about doing it.

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14 hours ago, IceColdUK said:

And if nobody turns up to an event, is that the fault of the host or just bad luck?

If it's an event that occurs on a weekend in an area with large active community and nobody shows up it's probably just bad luck (or nobody likes the person that created the event).  If it's a event that occurs in a country with very few caches and only 1 or 2 active geocachers and coincidently is scheduled during the short layover the EO has in that country, it probably was created just to get a smiley in that country.  It's not an exact science to tell the difference but sometimes it can be pretty obvious what's going on.

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3 minutes ago, NYPaddleCacher said:

If it's an event that occurs on a weekend in an area with large active community and nobody shows up it's probably just bad luck (or nobody likes the person that created the event).  If it's a event that occurs in a country with very few caches and only 1 or 2 active geocachers and coincidently is scheduled during the short layover the EO has in that country, it probably was created just to get a smiley in that country.  It's not an exact science to tell the difference but sometimes it can be pretty obvious what's going on.

 

Maybe I didn’t word that very well ... my wife was rushing me! ;-)

 

Using my own events as examples, I was trying to contrast one (in Mexico) that I admit was self-serving, but turned into a great event (with admittedly just four attendees), with another (in Senegal) that looked to be everything a ‘proper event’ should be, but had no attendees (other than my own family).

 

With the best will in the world, you can’t guarantee a good event ... and nefarious intent doesn’t necessarily lead to a bad one!

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It's not just the souvenir, but also challenge caches that ask for "find x different cache types in  x different countries" that have lead to these events. In some countries/areas there are only tradionals, mysteries and multi's, so an event is an easy find for an extra type of geocache...

 

I never go to events that are clearly organized just to get that souvenir/challenge etc. and I think that is the only thing you can do to discourage these type of events. Adding extra guidelines/rules etc. would not make it any better, since cachers always find solutions to get what they want eventually. By reading the event page it now is at least clear if an event is interesting for me or not, if cachers would lie on the cache event page just to get it published, that might change.

 

I've been to events abroad and also co-hosted (just a few) events, always working together with a local cacher to make sure the event would be at a suitable location and time. And of course with a local involved you are already sure not to be alone, since I agree the social part is what it is all about. For those who want to this as well and are wondering how: just look at recent events in the area where you are going and contact the event organizers for information/help.

 

Someone mentioned they don't like events in a pub, they rather go outdoors to a park. I've seen events that got cancelled on the day itself because of rain, so I prefer indoor events and a pub is often a nice informal location where people don't mind if you walk in with your muddy geocaching shoes. Being able to sit down makes it easier as well to chat, and a toilet nearby makes sure you don't have to leave the event earlier than you or someone in your cache team/family might want to.

The amount of people attending is unimportant to me. In my experience the smaller events are a lot better that the larger events since a small group makes it easier to really talk to each other, instead of trying to mingle with geocachers who already often arrive in groups of friends and seem to have no interest in really meeting other people.

 

And of course when an event organizer really wishes to meet other people, you can always decide to cancel the event 2 days before the actual date if there are no "will attend"-logs. Seems to me a lot better than just going ahead, waiting for half an hour for someone to show up while you could have used that time to go geocaching or sightseeing and then claiming your smiley just for the wait. Maybe the website could automatically suggest cancelling the event when there are no will attend-logs 2 days for the event, of course it will be up to the CO to follow this suggestion or not.

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54 minutes ago, irisisleuk said:

I never go to events that are clearly organized just to get that souvenir/challenge etc. and I think that is the only thing you can do to discourage these type of events.

 

But how do you know for sure?  And why should any event be discouraged?

 

Are wanting a smiley and wanting to meet people mutually exclusive?

 

I’ll admit that a host-only event is not really an event, but that can only be determined after the event.  Maybe some retroactive action might be possible, but even that would be tricky...  My Senegal event had eight Attended logs: all from my own family.  (Maybe it was disingenuous of any of us to log.)

 

Your suggestion for a no-WA warning has some merits, but we’d all need to get better at logging those WAs.  The only WAs for the Mexico event were mine and my wife’s.  It was the last minute attendees that ‘made’ it an event.  I guess I could have cancelled the day before, but those two other holidaymakers might not have got the message and walked 5 miles for nothing.

 

Maybe I’m just not seeing the problem.  If I lived in an area swamped with ‘meet and greets’ I suppose I might see it differently...

Edited by IceColdUK
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31 minutes ago, IceColdUK said:

 

But how do you know for sure?  And why should any event be discouraged?

 

Are wanting a smiley and wanting to meet people mutually exclusive?

 

....

Sometimes it is simply stated on the website: to get souvenir x, half an hour on the parking lot.

But of course you can't be sure what the intentions are, but the amount of info/background on the event page often gives a good indication.

 

I can't answer whether wanting a smiley and wanting to meet people are mutually exclusive, I didn't mean everyone should discourage events that are just there to for the souvenir/challenge, only those cachers who feel geocache events are intended to meet people. But I've seen lots of events that were only there for the souvenir and people attended saying they were happy the half hour on the parking lot was organized since they had no time to find a cache (no unfound nearby). So it's not my kind of event, but from the cache page it was clear what (not to expect), people placed will-attend logs and attended, so everybody happy.

 

And I agree about what you say "we’d all need to get better at logging those WAs". Lots of cachers don't seem to bother anymore to write a WA-log, not even a maybe I'll come if this and that will work out-note, which can by very annoying for event organizers. Funny enough these people are often the first ones to log the event as attended, within the first minute it started.  

Maybe the automatic suggestion to cancel the event, readable for everyone, just like the archive-warning at non maintained caches, will inspire some cachers to write a WA. And if cachers walk 5 miles for an event for which they didn't place a WA-log, I can't feel sorry for them. If they had the intention to come, they could at least have said so, which might have helped the CO to decide whether or not to proceed with the event.

 

And with respect to your last comment, "I don't see the problem". Well there is no real problem, but it's similar to other caches, people copy what they know. If you have found 10 micro's in guard rails you think that is how a cache should be. And if you then, after 10 finds, place a similar cache, you've done everything right, there is no problem. But you might have been able to create something more special, would you only have known... So if you see 10 meet and greet events, all 30 minutes just to get a souvenir, a cacher might think that is how an event should/must be. No problem, because he'll make lots of cachers happy, just not me.

 

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4 minutes ago, irisisleuk said:

So if you see 10 meet and greet events, all 30 minutes just to get a souvenir, a cacher might think that is how an event should/must be. No problem, because he'll make lots of cachers happy, just not me.

 

Fair point, but tough to see a solution.

 

Anyway, off to a ‘proper’ event this evening.  Anybody near Farnborough, Hants?  See you there!  https://coord.info/GC7T03R. Really should have logged my WA sooner. ;-)

 

 

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17 hours ago, irisisleuk said:

I never go to events that are clearly organized just to get that souvenir/challenge etc. and I think that is the only thing you can do to discourage these type of events.

 

I'm just wondering how events created in response to event-related souvenirs would fit in here, such as the recent Where in the World is Signal? series. When that came to Australia in January, I hosted an event (GC7FT24) to provide an opportunity for those interested in the souvenir to have a chance of getting it, and I'm sure some of the 21 who attended just came for the souvenir although many stayed around to chat even after the official end time. It wasn't half an hour in a car park, rather it was for two hours in a pleasant beachside picnic area, but I wouldn't have specifically created it if it hadn't been for the souvenir promotion. Should that have been discouraged? If no-one had hosted an event that weekend, no-one could have got the souvenir.

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31 minutes ago, barefootjeff said:

 

I'm just wondering how events created in response to event-related souvenirs would fit in here, such as the recent Where in the World is Signal? series. When that came to Australia in January, I hosted an event (GC7FT24) to provide an opportunity for those interested in the souvenir to have a chance of getting it, and I'm sure some of the 21 who attended just came for the souvenir although many stayed around to chat even after the official end time. It wasn't half an hour in a car park, rather it was for two hours in a pleasant beachside picnic area, but I wouldn't have specifically created it if it hadn't been for the souvenir promotion. Should that have been discouraged? If no-one had hosted an event that weekend, no-one could have got the souvenir.

In my opinion this is fine, the souvenir was just the motivation/occasion needed to organize the event. With the event you describe it's not just to get the souvenir but also to meet each other. I meant the events that are clearly just for the souvenir. They are half an hour (because that is the minimum, otherwise they would have been shorter) and are described or can be described as: come to a parking lot within the half hour time frame to sign the logbook, it's okay if you leave within 5 minutes. 

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On 8/7/2018 at 11:44 AM, -CJ- said:

On the other hand, when I host my own events I usually announce them to last for 30 minutes only; it's a guaranteed (and required) time for the logbook to be available.

 

Logbooks for events are optional (I never provide one at my own events), so I don't think that's why the minimum event time is 30 minutes. Otherwise, it is a sane guideline, to avoid 5 minutes' microevents or things like that.

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4 hours ago, Vooruit! said:

 

Logbooks for events are optional (I never provide one at my own events), so I don't think that's why the minimum event time is 30 minutes. Otherwise, it is a sane guideline, to avoid 5 minutes' microevents or things like that.

Yeah, the 30-minute minimum for events was established in response to a pattern of flash mob events and other extremely short events.

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On ‎8‎/‎8‎/‎2018 at 6:49 AM, irisisleuk said:

Maybe the automatic suggestion to cancel the event, readable for everyone, just like the archive-warning at non maintained caches, will inspire some cachers to write a WA. And if cachers walk 5 miles for an event for which they didn't place a WA-log, I can't feel sorry for them. If they had the intention to come, they could at least have said so, which might have helped the CO to decide whether or not to proceed with the event.

 

When traveling I don't always know my schedule until that day, so posting a WA for an event wouldn't happen until just before the event - too late to prevent a auto-archive.  And how does posting a WA - that keeps the event from auto-archive - and then not being able to attend (leaving just the host sitting waiting wasting his time) any better? 

 

I was on a cruise this year and it wasn't until the day we arrived that I'd seen an event happening just a few blocks from the dock - I'd checked and loaded caches prior to leaving home (a couple of weeks before the cruise).  With the limited wifi access on board I had no chance to see it ahead of time or post a WA.

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21 minutes ago, The Jester said:

When traveling I don't always know my schedule until that day, so posting a WA for an event wouldn't happen until just before the event - too late to prevent a auto-archive.  And how does posting a WA - that keeps the event from auto-archive - and then not being able to attend (leaving just the host sitting waiting wasting his time) any better? 

 

I was on a cruise this year and it wasn't until the day we arrived that I'd seen an event happening just a few blocks from the dock - I'd checked and loaded caches prior to leaving home (a couple of weeks before the cruise).  With the limited wifi access on board I had no chance to see it ahead of time or post a WA.

I never said an auto-archive, but a suggestion to archive when there are no will attends. Then it would be up the organizer to archive the event or not, it would be up to the CO to decide whether he wants to wait for someone to show up although nobody gave any indication that they might stop by. 

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I'm on the road now moving from one place to another so I couldn't follow this thread closely but I managed to read all comments today. First, thank you all for your input. I'm quite impressed that people exchange opinions actively and these opinions are different. Second, I liked that more people seemed to share my original thoughts and got the idea why this thread appeared.

 

Indeed, there's nothing I wanted to suggest to impose any restrictions, manually or automatically, on "poor" events. This chat is not about finding any technical solution. As NYPaddleCacher said

 

On 08.08.2018 at 1:41 PM, NYPaddleCacher said:

If (...) more people would speak up and say "this isn't an acceptable way to play the game.  Events are for the purposes of meeting and socializing with other cachers."  some might think twice about doing it.

 

If anyone's still asking the question "but how you know?" please get back to the original posting in this thread. There are several examples.

 

As for archiving events with no WA logs: yes, I was in both situations. In two cases I appeared in time and waited and no one came. In one case I cancelled the event because of no WA logs. I'd say my decisions depended on circumstances. Before I cancelled the event I looked through all caches in the area and it happened that most of them were in poor condition, likely being abandoned. I wrote to some local cachers in person and told them I was going to host an event but they never responded. If maybe it was just a vacation journey and I had plenty of free time I would still be there at the GZ but it was a business trip and my schedule was really tight. With all that information I cancelled the event (and no one wrote "hey, I was going to attend!" or published any other events in the city). But it also happened to me many times that the majority of visitors posted their WA logs at the very last moment or even didn't post any logs but just appeared. 

 

On the other hand, I understand that people might want seeing some practical output from this discussion so that it's not yet another "well, bad things happen but good things happen too" thread. So, what I personally do to make things better?

 

- I added some suggestions regarding events to the "All nations" forum, "Geocaching in Russia" thread. There are general ideas about hours and places that - in my opinion - could help hosts making their events more social. For my own city (Moscow) I even suggested a list of places more or less suitable for events (because I know from my own experience as a traveller how difficult it could be to choose a good location for an event in an unknown city.

- I practiced organizing various events in my city myself in forms different from "meet-and-greet" events; for example, it could be a guided tour in the downtown Moscow.

- I used to highlight that I welcome all questions/requests regarding events in the city such as "is this a good place for an event?".

- While doing my own meet-and-greet events abroad I'm not only trying to choose location/time wisely but also tell people who come why I chose this location and time. (And listen to their opinions if they share them). There are always people who say "this is my first event!" or "I have never organized my own event" - and I hope that they will probably learn from others experience.

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On 07.08.2018 at 5:18 PM, cerberus1 said:

 

Curious what you mean, not getting the implication of "publish notes but won't attend".  Please explain.  Thanks.    :)

I've attended well-over a hundred events to date, yet only logged 65.  Sounds (to me) the reverse of what you're saying, but not sure why you said it.

 

When I provided an example of an event in a remote monastery it seemed to me that you opposed with a positive attitude towards this possible event. So I provided a hyperlink to make my idea clearer. Imagine that I'm going to get to this particular place say in three weeks. (An expedition). How likely is that you will get all necessary equipment, obtain Russian visa, travel that far, find local guides and be there on that island among bogs on the same day and time?

 

By publishing notes I meant popular situaion when cachers physically cannot attend an event but say something like "what a great place, I wish I'm able to get there sometimes!"

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6 hours ago, -CJ- said:

When I provided an example of an event in a remote monastery it seemed to me that you opposed with a positive attitude towards this possible event. So I provided a hyperlink to make my idea clearer. Imagine that I'm going to get to this particular place say in three weeks. (An expedition). How likely is that you will get all necessary equipment, obtain Russian visa, travel that far, find local guides and be there on that island among bogs on the same day and time?

 

By publishing notes I meant popular situaion when cachers physically cannot attend an event but say something like "what a great place, I wish I'm able to get there sometimes!"

 

OK, thanks.  Seen some notes like that. 

 - And If I can't attend an event after a "will attend" , I email the EO. 

We see some even say why they can't make it, like anyone really cares.    :D

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8 hours ago, -CJ- said:

- I practiced organizing various events in my city myself in forms different from "meet-and-greet" events; for example, it could be a guided tour in the downtown Moscow.

That sounds like a great idea for an event. But how did you deal with the prohibition on moving events? Did you meet at the posted coordinates for half an hour, and then leave for the guided tour?

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So ... the one and only event I ever hosted probably violated the unwritten rules that some here have advocated for it.

 

It was a lunchtime event, in a modestly large city.

 

I hosted it because it was Leap Day 2016, and I was more obsessed about souvenirs in those days, and I really wanted the Leap Day 2016 event souvenir.   All the Leap Day events in my region were at a significant distance from me, and my Real Life schedule that day wouldn't allow me to take the long trip before/after work to get them.   So, the only way for me to get a Leap Day event souvenir was to organize my own event.

 

So I talked to the local folks who organize the regular monthly events around here, found out how they set them up at one of the local food joints, and got the event approved.   I had no idea who'd show up (if anyone); folks around here don't usually log WAs.

 

And you know what happened?   Just one of the best memories of my geocaching career.

 

Thirty-four people attended, which is a big number for events around here.    Not only did I get the local lunch crowd, but I got folks traveling from quite some distance who were similarly situated and looking for the smilely.   I got to add a few more name-face pairs to my memory bank.   Someone brought a locationless cache to the event for people to log.   And we even had some spontaneous cache maintenance happen, as folks who came into town early and did some caching nearby brought the remnants of a fallen cache to the event, only to discover that we could put all the found pieces together and reassemble the cache, which got re-hidden by someone else on the way out of town.

 

It also was popular because some folks in the region were trying to go after the achievement of attending as many events in one day as possible, and my event was the only one in the region during mid-day.   So a number of folks made a point of visiting the event as a part of their quest that day.

 

So ... maybe I'm the exception, but I think midday events can be pretty cool.

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