Cache taken by the sea

[+dubidubno]

This is just tragic. Promoting a story about a cache so recklessly placed or replaced that it was taken by the sea. Plastic pollution in the ocean is a huge problem. That this container was picked up and could be properly disposed of before molesting an animal was just pure luck.

https://www.geocaching.com/blog/2018/07/geocache-swims-across-the-english-channel/

[+The A-Team]

30 minutes ago, dubidubno said:

This is just tragic. Promoting a story about a cache so recklessly placed or replaced that it was taken by the sea.

That seems a bit harsh. Without knowing exactly what happened, I wouldn't jump to conclusions and start making assumptions about either the CO or the finders. It's entirely possible that the cache was well-hidden and put back in the correct spot, but that a large wave dislodged it anyway. After all, it's on a structure out in the water (depending on the tides).

[+The A-Team]

I also find it a bit hypocritical to complain about one cache being pollution, when you've dropped over a hundred such items out in the wild yourself.

[+dubidubno]

3 minutes ago, The A-Team said:

That seems a bit harsh. Without knowing exactly what happened, I wouldn't jump to conclusions and start making assumptions about either the CO or the finders. It's entirely possible that the cache was well-hidden and put back in the correct spot, but that a large wave dislodged it anyway. After all, it's on a structure out in the water (depending on the tides).

If a large wave could dislodge it, it was not well hidden.

[+dubidubno]

13 minutes ago, The A-Team said:

I also find it a bit hypocritical to complain about one cache being pollution, when you've dropped over a hundred such items out in the wild yourself.

Go ahead and attack me instead of staying on topic.
 

Edited July 31, 2018 by dubidubno

[+TriciaG]

Time to ban all geocaches placed near oceans, lakes, rivers, and streams.

A-Team's point is valid. If someone is that concerned about plastic litter, they probably should not contribute to the problem by placing caches that might get lost in nature and become plastic litter.

[+barefootjeff]

11 minutes ago, dubidubno said:

21 minutes ago, The A-Team said:

I also find it a bit hypocritical to complain about one cache being pollution, when you've dropped over a hundred such items out in the wild yourself.

I have not placed any near the sea that is not properly sheltered and secured.

 

I've had two caches taken by the sea that I'd thought were properly sheltered and secured. One was a fake rock placed deep under a rock ledge on a headland that faced the beach, rather than the open sea, some three or four metres above high water level. I would never have imagined that waves could wash in around the point and get up to it with enough force to disloge it, but they did during a severe storm system a few years ago. That same storm also claimed several houses that were built on land that got undermined by the huge waves. I've now archived that cache.

 

The other one was placed inside a deep gap in a stone retaining wall alongside a creek some 600 metres inland from the sea, with the cache some ten centimetres below the lip of the hole. Again it was three or four metres above the normal water level. In a severe rain event that caused widespread flooding right across the coast, the creek rose high enough to float the container out of its hiding place. I'm pretty sure that was the same rain event that pretty much washed away the whole town of Dungog a bit north of here. I've now replaced that cache with a heavy steel box weighed down with two of the largest fishing sinkers I could buy so it's definitely not buoyant, so I'm hoping it'll stay put next time.

 

Extreme weather events can do things that even experienced civil engineers and town planners don't expect could ever possibly happen. What chance do us mere COs have of outwitting mother nature?

[+cerberus1]

26 minutes ago, The A-Team said:

That seems a bit harsh.

 

Agreed.  Lots of favorite points (61 for 138 finds),  no NMs, yet 5 OMs.  Maintained, and folks are having fun. 

Good story behind it now too. 

 

My area was talking about plastic straws off n on.  

May take years, but eventually they'll supposedly travel from NE PA to the Pacific through mind control.

 - The thick-walled plastic cups are gonna stay,  as well as the plastic domed lids, and included plastic spoons ... but boy-oh-boy, those straws gotta go...

[+dprovan]

That is so cool! Thanks for sharing that story with us! The cache itself was well worth the risk of an ecological disaster caused by this one piece of plastic out of the millions of pieces of trash dumped by tourists and boats, and that's even before the amazing adventure this geocacher got to report. I can't believe he didn't claim a find! I would have, for sure!

[+MNTA]

So the 100s of abandoned caches in the woods or cities are not trash? 

 

This is a drop in the bucket. Have fun enjoy. Do your best and clean things up when you can.

[+Michaelcycle]

So far, I have been a part of 8 CITOs that have collected tons (seriously, tons) of plastic, tires, roofing materials and other environmentally unfriendly stuff from woods and waterways in my area. I have informally collected lots of smaller garbage as I pedal along on my geocaching adventures. I have had one cache go missing when water rose higher than I have ever seen it on a local river (the container was in a tree at least six feet above normal level and four feet higher than I have ever seen)

 

I think, on balance, I'm good. I suspect most of the rest of us are, too.

Edited August 1, 2018 by Michaelcycle

[+wmpastor]

Yes, I think most cachers are responsible.  How secure is secure enough?  A couple of areas near me have flooded once in my lifetime.  Caches in those areas could have been carried from creeks to the Delaware River to the Atlantic Ocean!

 

And check this out.  Perhaps the only safe cache in Missouri is at least 25 feet high in a tree!

 

[+cerberus1]

The hobby has had a program called Cache In Trash Out since '02. 

 - That's setting an example for others.  

A temporary problem that had a good, fun outcome isn't an issue...

 

We're usually heading back to the truck with a grocery bag of trash (water bottles and "nutrition bars" mostly).

I could see this if beer bottles and beef jerky packets , but water and snack bars tells me they're probably the very same people who could be upset over containers hidden in the woods, if steered that way by another.

 

 

[+J Grouchy]

16 hours ago, dubidubno said:

This is just tragic. Promoting a story about a cache so recklessly placed or replaced that it was taken by the sea. Plastic pollution in the ocean is a huge problem. That this container was picked up and could be properly disposed of before molesting an animal was just pure luck.

https://www.geocaching.com/blog/2018/07/geocache-swims-across-the-english-channel/

 

"Tragic"?  Really?

I think you're in the wrong game/pastime if you consider this a tragic event.

[BillyGeeee]

19 hours ago, dubidubno said:

Go ahead and attack me instead of staying on topic.
 

Is there an idiom opposite to "preaching to the choir"? I can't think of one but you did exactly this.

Over the years, I became convinced that geocaching is indistinguishable from littering in the eyes of the general population (a.k.a. muggles). If not then why would they take away valueless containers?
I am not saying that geocaching contributes measurably to pollution but pretty much all geocaches are garbage on principle. The exceptions are containers placed on private property with the approval and care of the owner. Geocaches placed in parks with the approval of the park managers are still garbage. I don't think that the managers have the moral right to allow one type of non-natural products to be left behind and others - not.
Besides, even if land managers have the right to allow geocaches thrown around, their approval is seldom sought. Pretty much nobody asks. There is a wide-spread bury-head-in-sand type of hypocrisy around here: "The geocache owner supposedly obtained permission", "If not specifically forbidden then it must be allowed", "If there is no info in the regional wiki then hiding a geocache is allowed". What? So the entire continent of Africa if fair game? So it is OK to throw down a piece of plastic where palaeontologists are looking for our ancestors?

Somebody said that most cachers are responsible. Yet, exactly the opposite was stated a few hundred times in the "Geocache Quality" thread just a couple of weeks ago.

[+MNTA]

32 minutes ago, BillyGee said:

Is there an idiom opposite to "preaching to the choir"? I can't think of one but you did exactly this.

Over the years, I became convinced that geocaching is indistinguishable from littering in the eyes of the general population (a.k.a. muggles). If not then why would they take away valueless containers?
I am not saying that geocaching contributes measurably to pollution but pretty much all geocaches are garbage on principle. The exceptions are containers placed on private property with the approval and care of the owner. Geocaches placed in parks with the approval of the park managers are still garbage. I don't think that the managers have the moral right to allow one type of non-natural products to be left behind and others - not.
Besides, even if land managers have the right to allow geocaches thrown around, their approval is seldom sought. Pretty much nobody asks. There is a wide-spread bury-head-in-sand type of hypocrisy around here: "The geocache owner supposedly obtained permission", "If not specifically forbidden then it must be allowed", "If there is no info in the regional wiki then hiding a geocache is allowed". What? So the entire continent of Africa if fair game? So it is OK to throw down a piece of plastic where palaeontologists are looking for our ancestors?

Somebody said that most cachers are responsible. Yet, exactly the opposite was stated a few hundred times in the "Geocache Quality" thread just a couple of weeks ago.

So true!

 

Everyone has the best intentions I am sure but agree one mans treasures is another mans trash.

 

I hid a cache in a recycled spot. I found the original container and two throw down containers all decent quality. Got yelled at by one poster for stealing but seriously they were all abandoned. So putting them back into circulation after cleaning up. Don't get me started on PC obtaining permission, wanted to place it in a tree with a one step up to retrieve, nope and it was a perfect climbing tree. 

 

Land managers have a tough line to tow. Protect the environment at the same time as provide access to the public for recreation. When all activities involving the public affect the environment. It's a catch-22 hikers pack down the soil, cachers make new geotrails, mountain bikers cause tracks and all the above causes erosion. The best bet is to be good stewards and realize our presence has an effect and we can choose to clean up after ourselves the best we can. Stopping all activity is not the answer. I for one value our 1st world values and prefer it to Mexico, Northern Africa, or the middle east all of which I have visited and have no interest in staying. 

[+The A-Team]

58 minutes ago, BillyGee said:

I am not saying that geocaching contributes measurably to pollution but pretty much all geocaches are garbage on principle.

This may not carry much weight coming from an established cacher, but I disagree with this as a blanket definition.

 

A cache that is no longer being maintained could be considered garbage. However, a cache that's being actively maintained is not garbage - it's a cache.

 

This may sounds like splitting hairs, but it's one of the underlying principles that makes geocaching, letterboxing, orienteering, and various other outdoor activities possible.

[BillyGeeee]

45 minutes ago, The A-Team said:

This may not carry much weight coming from an established cacher, but I disagree with this as a blanket definition.

 

A cache that is no longer being maintained could be considered garbage. However, a cache that's being actively maintained is not garbage - it's a cache.

 

This may sounds like splitting hairs, but it's one of the underlying principles that makes geocaching, letterboxing, orienteering, and various other outdoor activities possible.

Can you stand up in front of the mirror and tell to the person opposite you:
"Most of the geocaches are well-maintained."
(and by "most" I mean 50% + 1, nothing fancy like 90+%).

I know I can't.

But what is the difference between a well-maintained and an abandoned geocache for the muggles? There isn't any. They don't care about the dampness of the logbook. All they see is plastics.

[+The A-Team]

3 minutes ago, BillyGee said:

Can you stand up in front of the mirror and tell to the person opposite you:
"Most of the geocaches are well-maintained."
(and by "most" I mean 50% + 1, nothing fancy like 90+%).

I know I can't.

I didn't say anything about being well-maintained. I just said maintained. If the owner is active enough in the game that they would be willing and/or able to either maintain the cache on their own or delegate someone to do it on their behalf should a major issue arise with the cache, then I'd say that's good enough to qualify it as not-garbage. Anyway, I would gladly stand in front of a muggle and state with confidence that most caches are not abandoned garbage. Having only found 8 caches, I can understand why your small sample size may lead to a different conclusion. Based on my experience, while it varies from area to area, caches are generally kept maintained more than they're abandoned.

 

Quote

But what is the difference between a well-maintained and an abandoned geocache for the muggles? There isn't any. They don't care about the dampness of the logbook. All they see is plastics.

To a muggle who knows nothing about geocaching and sees a plastic box in the woods, sure, there's no difference. The same could be said about a letterbox container, an orienteering flag, or any other object that has been purposely placed in the outdoors and which the "finder" knows nothing about. That's why there should be a note in the container that explains what it is and why it's there. If anyone has concerns about all the "plastics" we leave outside, we just need to explain to them that it has been placed there for a specific purpose and our intention is that it will be removed when it's no longer being used for that purpose. That may not always occur, but it's our goal and it does in many cases.

[BillyGeeee]

35 minutes ago, The A-Team said:

Having only found 8 caches,

I'm sorry I didn't clarify this - I have found and hidden my fair share of caches. Way less than you but in a greater time span. I am just no longer proud of this and thus I am not using my original account any more. I started more than 5 years before the first power-trail appeared in my country.
At first, the geocaches we were finding looked well. Because they were still very new. They were yet to need any maintenance.
Things deteriorated quickly when geocaching turned into a numbers game.
Nowadays we have this: https://coord.info/GC7TP7X (just one geocache of the power-trail). 41 pieces of garbage, 3 of them missing two days after FTF (if you care to check all the logs). I wonder where they are. Ah, in the sea. Guess what will happen with the rest? Off to the sea they will go. Meanwhile, they will be replenished by throw-downs. What will be the destination of the throw-downs? The sea.
But that's not all! We are promised 50 more pieces of garbage. Most probably the reviewer just got lazy and will publish them any moment. Some of them are already in the sea, I guess. But no FTF opportunities will be missed (throw-downs).
 

Now try to be a muggle looking from the side.
"These guys say that they care about the environment? What? Why should I have to carry back the packaging of the sandwich I just ate and not throw it right here, in the middle of the forest? If I slightly conceal it, I can say it's a geocache!"
 

Power-trails are becoming the norm in my country. And I am pretty sure that my fellow-countrymen are just playing catch-up with the rest of the world.

 

35 minutes ago, The A-Team said:

The same could be said about a letterbox container, an orienteering flag, or any other object that has been purposely placed in the outdoors and which the "finder" knows nothing about.

Of course, they are pieces of garbage, too. The orienteering flags usually do get removed right after the contest, though.

36 minutes ago, The A-Team said:

it will be removed when it's no longer being used for that purpose. That may not always occur

That pretty much never occurs, given the two main reasons for archiving a geocache:
1. The container is already down the stream / scattered all over the park / eaten by a bear / etc.
2. The owner had stopped caring years ago.

[+barefootjeff]

3 hours ago, BillyGee said:

Over the years, I became convinced that geocaching is indistinguishable from littering in the eyes of the general population (a.k.a. muggles). If not then why would they take away valueless containers?

 

From my experience, most muggling is by people wanting to ruin other people's fun, not from some altruistic goal to remove litter. The cache I had that was repeatedly muggled was deep under a rock shelf with another rock placed in front of it so it couldn't be seen, and was clearly labeled as an "Official Geocache". The mugglers repeatedly tipped the contents of the cache on the ground before making off with either the container or the logbook. On the second occasion when they took the container, they returned the original logbook. Funny how it always seemed to happen during school holidays. I ended up archiving that cache and removing everything that was left of it. Another muggled cache I encountered had fresh graffiti sprayed on the rock right next to the hiding place and drink bottles and chip bags dropped on the ground in front of it. Hardly the mark of someone caring for the environment.

[+wmpastor]

23 hours ago, The A-Team said:

I also find it a bit hypocritical to complain about one cache being pollution, when you've dropped over a hundred such items out in the wild yourself.

 

Or do like I've done a couple of times and use wood for the container.  In the unlikely event it is abandoned or lost, it will biodegrade centuries before something similar made of plastic!

[+dprovan]

1 hour ago, BillyGee said:

Can you stand up in front of the mirror and tell to the person opposite you:
"Most of the geocaches are well-maintained."
(and by "most" I mean 50% + 1, nothing fancy like 90+%).

I know I can't.

Wow, that's really too bad. I've never run the numbers, but I'd say easily 90% of the caches I find are well maintained. I just went back and looked at my last 20 finds, and there hasn't been a single problem in any of them. I'm sorry your geocaching environment has so many problems.

[+barefootjeff]

55 minutes ago, BillyGee said:

1 hour ago, The A-Team said:

it will be removed when it's no longer being used for that purpose. That may not always occur

That pretty much never occurs, given the two main reasons for archiving a geocache:
1. The container is already down the stream / scattered all over the park / eaten by a bear / etc.
2. The owner had stopped caring years ago.

 

That's a bit harsh. Looking at my own archived hides, I've had about a fifty percent success rate at removing the container; the ones I haven't were the fake rock I mentioned earlier that was washed away in a severe storm, a couple that were taken, most likely by bored school kids wanting to spoil other people's fun, and one that's now buried under several tonnes of rock when part of the cave's ceiling collapsed on top of it. Other COs in my area have removed their caches when they've moved away or are unable to continue in the game, or have adopted them out. Just this week I adopted two caches from someone whose health made it difficult for him to continue as CO.

 

I have one cache hidden in a national park with written permission from the Regional Director. That permission has a two-year tenure, after which I must either apply for an extension or remove the container (which is stainless steel, not plastic, by the way) to the satisfaction of the ranger. I think it's drawing a pretty long bow to consider that littering.

 

For the rest of my hides, on local council or state goverment land zoned for public recreation, I've collected far more litter when checking on my hides than the containers I've put out, and just yesterday someone logging a find on one of my caches mentioned in his log that he'd removed the dumped beer bottles and other litter from the cove where it's hidden. I'd say most of the cachers around here make an effort to remove litter when they're out caching and try as best they can to ensure their own hides don't contribute to it.

[+cerberus1]

5 hours ago, barefootjeff said:

From my experience, most muggling is by people wanting to ruin other people's fun, not from some altruistic goal to remove litter.

 

Same here.   Kids mostly.   Folks would be surprised how easily non-players find out-of-the-way caches.  It's their favorite spot too...

Most non-players we've chatted with on trail know about geocaching.    Some confuse it with orienteering or letterboxes.

The numbers of folks we're aware of who've even mentioned littering are few.  

 - And most got caught stealing them before they used the excuse that they're on a mission to protect the environment (we caught some ourselves)...   

[+bflentje]

On 7/31/2018 at 5:43 PM, The A-Team said:

That seems a bit harsh. Without knowing exactly what happened, I wouldn't jump to conclusions and start making assumptions about either the CO or the finders. It's entirely possible that the cache was well-hidden and put back in the correct spot, but that a large wave dislodged it anyway. After all, it's on a structure out in the water (depending on the tides).

 

Yep, it is unfortunate, but definitely not tragic.

[+Michaelcycle]

21 hours ago, BillyGee said:

Can you stand up in front of the mirror and tell to the person opposite you:
"Most of the geocaches are well-maintained."
(and by "most" I mean 50% + 1, nothing fancy like 90+%).

I know I can't.

But what is the difference between a well-maintained and an abandoned geocache for the muggles? There isn't any. They don't care about the dampness of the logbook. All they see is plastics.

Yes, I can stand in front of that proverbial mirror and make that proverbial statement but I will admit that I do not do much in the way of power trails (I hate getting off the bicycle every 528' to look for a cache.)

 

Regardless. If I took every geocache I have found and weighed them, they would not equal the weight of material I have removed from the environment during CITOs. Dragging several truck tires out of a muddy river bank or a couple hundred pounds of old roofing shingles out of a local WMA once in a while still keeps me to the good.

[BillyGeeee]

11 hours ago, Michaelcycle said:

Yes, I can stand in front of that proverbial mirror and make that proverbial statement but I will admit that I do not do much in the way of power trails (I hate getting off the bicycle every 528' to look for a cache.)

 

Regardless. If I took every geocache I have found and weighed them, they would not equal the weight of material I have removed from the environment during CITOs. Dragging several truck tires out of a muddy river bank or a couple hundred pounds of old roofing shingles out of a local WMA once in a while still keeps me to the good.

Good for you, Michaelcycle!

Unfortunately, you alone are statistically insignificant.

Do you know that bacteria not just outnumbers, but outweighs all other forms of life on Earth combined?
The same goes for power-trails and irresponsible cachers.

Edited August 3, 2018 by BillyGee

[+fuzziebear3]

I'm with MichaelCycle on this one.  I have participated in more CITO's than I have placed caches.  I have carried out far more trash while out geocaching or otherwise out and about than I have placed geocaches (which by the way, are not trash).

 

Think of it this way:  If a park service places a trash can in a park -- are they not leaving something manmade and full of trash?  But that one trashcan improves the park by collecting trash and allowing for proper disposal.   If as a cacher I place a cache, and by bringing people to the area to find the cache, they in turn remove trash, then the net sum is better for the earth.

 

I too am frustrated when I see that people have dropped drink bottles, cans, and wrappers.  I mutter about them, and pick up after them.   But that is still not the same as actually placing a cache.

 

 

[+Team Christiansen]

12 hours ago, BillyGee said:

Good for you, Michaelcycle!

Unfortunately, you alone are statistically insignificant.

 

Not statistically insignificant or alone at all! 

 

The same can be said for most any CITO participant that their total trash clean up far outweighs all their placed caches combined. The same can also be said for many cachers who have never participated in a CITO event, but still practice CITO principles.