Absent Leaders and Unresponsive Officers

September 27, 2021

9 hours ago, gpsblake said:

I still think the best way around this problem is after 7 days of no action, the waymark gets published automatically, with the group officers able to unpublish it if it's discovered it doesn't meet the category.

Well, it doesn't seem like a good plan to me. Posted WM should not be canceled.

11.6k · September 27, 2021

9 hours ago, gpsblake said:

I still think the best way around this problem is after 7 days of no action, the waymark gets published automatically, with the group officers able to unpublish it if it's discovered it doesn't meet the category.

I think that's a terrible idea. 😯

September 27, 2021

9 hours ago, gpsblake said:

I still think the best way around this problem is after 7 days of no action, the waymark gets published automatically, with the group officers able to unpublish it if it's discovered it doesn't meet the category.

Officers were introduced to provide a quality gate. If the publish is on automatic you will get a lot of spam and incorrect waymarks soon in the "abandoned" categories.

Better to check, which categories don't have an active reviewer crew now (that would be when wayfrog is approving the waymarks) and remind them to do their job or replace them then.

Perhaps we should also consider something like an automatic inactive flag on officers that were not online for three month and an automatic demote for officers not being online for six month in order to keep the overhead small.

September 27, 2021

35 minutes ago, T0SHEA said:

3. Inactive leaders unwilling to resign and select a new leader.

4. Unfortunately several waymarkers have died and are still officers (some of which are in inactive categories)

5, Some leaders/officers are either unable or are no longer involved with Waymarking which brings us back to no. 3

Thats why I suggested the automatic demote after six month of inactivity. But the process to elect a new leader as soon there are no more active officers left in the category is a bit unclear at this moment - that would be something to think about.

1.4k · September 27, 2021

3 hours ago, FamilieFrohne said:

Thats why I suggested the automatic demote after six month of inactivity. But the process to elect a new leader as soon there are no more active officers left in the category is a bit unclear at this moment - that would be something to think about.

Inactivity is not always real inactivity. I am aware of a few niche categories, where all officers are totally "inactive" and not interested in Waymarking at all, but are really into the topic of the category. They never log in, but when a new waymark is submitted, it is evaluated within minutes.

1.4k · September 27, 2021

1 hour ago, T0SHEA said:

Interesting. They most likely are not on my lists of categories that wayfrog approves.

Certainly not, but global officer inactivity measurements would catch them, unfortunately.

On the other hand, I noticed more than once that wayfrogs clean-up actions occasionely also involve categories that would not need them. So, this list is neither a perfect benchmark.

Edited September 27, 2021 by fi67
Typo

September 27, 2021

3 hours ago, fi67 said:

Inactivity is not always real inactivity. I am aware of a few niche categories, where all officers are totally "inactive" and not interested in Waymarking at all, but are really into the topic of the category. They never log in, but when a new waymark is submitted, it is evaluated within minutes.

That would make an automatic decision a little bit (more) difficult. An additional indicator could be unreviewed waymarks in the queue that linger there for a longer time ... So this would also be another topic to think about ...

September 27, 2021

9 hours ago, T0SHEA said:

This is an ongoing problem that is discussed many times on the forums, without any "real" solutions.

1. Enrollment is off

2. Reluctance to install new officers

3. Inactive leaders unwilling to resign and select a new leader.

4. Unfortunately several waymarkers have died and are still officers (some of which are in inactive categories)

5, Some leaders/officers are either unable or are no longer involved with Waymarking which brings us back to no. 3

I was just going to mention the problem of Ancient Aqueducts. All the above is true except there is one active officer who is approving all the waymarks. This is a disaster waiting to happen as there is no failsafe to keep this category from falling into complete neglect. I sent an e-mail to the inactive leader to request that Enrollment be turned on. Of course, after lots of experience, I have absolutely no hope that the leader will remotely consider my plea. I would like to ask wayfrog to look at this and consider working to force enrollment to be on. Fortunately, there is hope to rescue dying categories, but most often not without the intervention of wayfrog.

Edited September 27, 2021 by RakeInTheCache

September 27, 2021

The Ancient Aqueducts category it's working without any problems and not abandoned. There should be no intervention in a category unless it's abandoned and not working, this is a line that should not be crossed.

11.6k · September 27, 2021

8 minutes ago, razalas said:

There should be no intervention in a category unless it's abandoned and not working, this is a line that should not be crossed.

I understand what you are saying, and mostly agree. But a category should never be a one-man show, in my opinion. I am not referring to any specific category.

September 28, 2021

21 hours ago, razalas said:

The Ancient Aqueducts category it's working without any problems and not abandoned. There should be no intervention in a category unless it's abandoned and not working, this is a line that should not be crossed.

I would have to respectfully disagree. According to Waymarking rules, categories must have at least 3 officers. I think counting inactive officers in that minimum may be respecting the letter of the rule but is really going against the spirit of the hobby and the way it was intended to work.

Edited September 28, 2021 by RakeInTheCache

September 28, 2021

21 hours ago, Max and 99 said:

But a category should never be a one-man show, in my opinion.

I would agree with this opinion.

11.6k · June 9, 2022

Established rock climbing areas officers, where are you? 😁

(Except the one that posted he is taking a review break).

July 4, 2022

I'm afraid the Childhood Homes category has become derelict for the usual reasons (leader long gone, most officers long gone or inactive). I am willing to become the leader. I sent notes to the last two remaining active members to start a vote to promote me. Waiting to see what happens.

1.3k · July 12, 2022

And now that (well, nearly) a sufficient number of wasted days have passed, as per the suggestions outline above, your next move would/should be:

2. “What if nothing happens after a week or two? At that point it is best to contact me directly to move things along.

(Me in this instance being our friendly and helpful Wayfroggie!)

YEAH - Clean up another category there, Cache Raker!!

We need, and appreciate, MORE LIKE YOU!!!.

Keith

Edited July 12, 2022 by ScroogieII

11.6k · July 12, 2022

Accessible designed recreational locations could use a little help.

And, if I remember correctly from someone else, Spirit of 76 category.

1.4k · July 12, 2022

7 hours ago, T0SHEA said:

On 7/21/2018 at 8:01 AM, wayfrog said:

if appropriate.

Often wondered what this means, exactly.

That's just legalese, sort of. It means that you do not have an absolute right to become the new leader. I guess it only applies if someone claims a category that is not abandoned. This can happen and it already did happen with some unpleasant side effects.

1.3k · July 19, 2022

On 7/12/2022 at 1:29 PM, fi67 said:

This can happen and it already did happen with some unpleasant side effects.

Might you happen to have any details that you feel free to share?

Keith

11.6k · July 24, 2022

On 7/12/2022 at 2:06 AM, Max and 99 said:

Accessible designed recreational locations could use a little help.

And, if I remember correctly from someone else, Spirit of 76 category.

Frustrating. An officer in this category checked in a week ago, 5 weeks after my submission. The other officers last checked in 2021 and 2020.

Update July 25: Thanks, Wayfrog!

Edited July 25, 2022 by Max and 99

1.4k · July 27, 2022

On 7/20/2022 at 12:52 AM, ScroogieII said:

Might you happen to have any details that you feel free to share?

Keith

Sorry, I have not many hard facts, just some memories of threads in the old forum (pre 2012) that was unfortunately deleted by mistake a few years later. I was a newbie then and did not get all the subtleties, but I think to remember that there were some discussions of "stolen" categories due to a false claim of inactivity that could not be reverted for some reason after the fact. I think, one of the victims was silverquill, but I don't recall any details.

July 28, 2022

On 7/26/2022 at 3:05 PM, T0SHEA said:

Today is July 26th, 2022

It is two weeks since I contacted wayfrog about several categories in need of new management, with no response.

Hum, now what?

...<gone>

Posted July 12
On 7/20/2018 at 11:01 PM, wayfrog said:
What if nothing happens after a week or two? At that point it is best to contact me directly to move things along. What I will need is a copy of your attempt to contact the Leader and a link to the Group in question. That allows me to see what is going on with the Leader and other Officers, clean up any pending submissions, and start the process of transferring the Group to you if appropriate.

I contacted wayfrog today.

I passed it over to Groundspeak on 7/13. Still in progress.

9.2k · July 29, 2022

On 7/27/2022 at 2:05 PM, fi67 said:

Sorry, I have not many hard facts, just some memories of threads in the old forum (pre 2012) that was unfortunately deleted by mistake a few years later. I was a newbie then and did not get all the subtleties, but I think to remember that there were some discussions of "stolen" categories due to a false claim of inactivity that could not be reverted for some reason after the fact. I think, one of the victims was silverquill, but I don't recall any details.

I was an active officer in a category that was hijacked. The category requirements were then significantly altered from the original version. I believe the category founder should have the option of retiring a category rather than watching it get morphed by a hijacker.

The experience left such a bad taste in my mouth that I no longer contribute new waymarks, create categories or volunteer to be an officer. My sole remaining involvement is to guard the categories I founded or co-founded, so that someone else cannot hijack them and fundamentally change the original vision. If category retirement was an option, then I'd be gone in 60 seconds. Someone else would then be free to create a Version 2.0 of the same category, and change the rules to their heart's content.

1.3k · July 29, 2022

On 7/27/2022 at 11:05 AM, fi67 said:

Sorry, I have not many hard facts, just some memories of threads in the old forum (pre 2012) that was unfortunately deleted by mistake a few years later. I was a newbie then and did not get all the subtleties, but I think to remember that there were some discussions of "stolen" categories due to a false claim of inactivity that could not be reverted for some reason after the fact. I think, one of the victims was silverquill, but I don't recall any details.

Oh well, old news now and there's likely nothing good to be gained from regurgitating past hurts.

Thanks for the "update", fi.

Keith

1.3k · July 29, 2022

1 hour ago, The Leprechauns said:

I was an active officer in a category that was hijacked. The category requirements were then significantly altered from the original version. I believe the category founder should have the option of retiring a category rather than watching it get morphed by a hijacker.

The experience left such a bad taste in my mouth that I no longer contribute new waymarks, create categories or volunteer to be an officer. My sole remaining involvement is to guard the categories I founded or co-founded, so that someone else cannot hijack them and fundamentally change the original vision. If category retirement was an option, then I'd be gone in 60 seconds. Someone else would then be free to create a Version 2.0 of the same category, and change the rules to their heart's content.

And I'll ask of you the same question:

Any pertinent details you'd like to share?

I remain unaware of any categories which have been "hijacked", but am aware of many which have been taken over by an active, interested Waymarker after the category had become leaderless and officer free for, in many cases, years.

I, myself, have taken over categories which had become dormant, the leader and officers having not checked in for at least a year, often substantially longer. I've also been offered, each time accepting, the leadership of categories whose leaders were no longer interested or simply were no longer able to maintain, for whatever reason.

As for " I believe the category founder should have the option of retiring a category", I see that what you're suggesting here is that the founder should have the power to "eliminate" a category in which they're no longer interested. I suspect that would not "go over well" within the community.

As for "rather than watching it get morphed by a hijacker", almost exclusively, when the requirements for a category are substantially amended, the purpose is to encourage the submission of better, more informative, Waymarks.

And now "fundamentally change the original vision" - To my knowledge this has never been done, unless one considers fundamentally changing the original vision being done to make the category more inclusive. This, too, I have done when a category was initially sufficiently restrictive as to remain for many years a very small category, with little growth after many years. Two examples which come to mind are Atlantic Canada Heritage Properties and Western Canadian Heritage, both of which I expanded, essentially on the advice of the community after having asked the community's advice on this forum.

I'm sorry that you have, for the reasons portrayed, ceased to contribute Waymarks to the database. That's as much your loss as ours, however. :mellow:

Keith

August 1, 2022

I submitted a Waymark to the "North Country Trail" category a couple of weeks ago and it has not yet been reviewed. When I looked at the category officers, I saw that 3 out of 4 have not logged-in at all in 2022, and one is taking a review break. I also noticed that the last Waymark approved in that category was in September 2020, which makes me wonder if there are other Waymarks waiting to be reviewed.

August 1, 2022

I'm glad to report that the Waymark I referenced in my previous post has now been approved. Thanks to the reviewer who did that!

August 18, 2022

Well, the truth is a complicated subject. Some consider that waiting for wayfrog does not solve it, but knowing some reviewers, I am terrified that they become official in hundreds of categories. I would not like to increase the category blacklist.

Thanks to wayfrog for all.

August 18, 2022

And the initial "hijack" or "change categories", I will always vote in favor of the inclusion of more possibilities, broadening the point of view and avoiding duplicities.

Edited August 18, 2022 by Ariberna

August 25, 2022

I nominate Insect Sculptures as the most responsive Category. My new Waymark was approved by all three officers, within two days. Thank you, Following Entomology members. I wish all the groups were this responsible.

We thought surely everything would already be Waymarked in Seattle. . .

1.3k · August 25, 2022

10 minutes ago, r.e.s.t.seekers said:

I nominate Insect Sculptures as the most responsive Category. My new Waymark was approved by all three officers, within two days. Thank you, Following Entomology members. I wish all the groups were this responsible.

We thought surely everything would already be Waymarked in Seattle. . .

I'm not braggin', but, several times I have reviewed Waymarks BEFORE the notice for said WM landed in my inbox.

Each time, however, it was the result of pure coincidence - I happened to be reviewing when someone submitted and it was just next on my list.

I'm guessing that this has happened to many officers, though.

Keith

August 26, 2022

On 8/25/2022 at 6:03 PM, ScroogieII said:

I'm not braggin', but, several times I have reviewed Waymarks BEFORE the notice for said WM landed in my inbox.

...

I'm guessing that this has happened to many officers, though.

Not to me ... yet (perhaps this is only because I'm officer in just five categories). But when I'm at home at my PC and working on a waymark it happened that I saw the notification icon for a new waymark to review at the same time the smart phone got the mail message - so that review was done in less than five minutes after sending it to review.

December 10, 2022

I wasn´t aware that I´m the last woman standing in Norway Historical Sites. A couple of times every year there is a new listing, and I have reviewed them.

Norway could absolutely be included in a Scandinavian or Nordic Cultural Heritage category, but the Norway Historical Sites should still live on. It covers much more than a cultural heritage group based on official lists as kulturarv.no. Several waymarks in the heritage category are already listed in other categories, for example Medival Churches.

February 11, 2023

I'm not sure of this has been suggested before, but why don 't we try chopping this huge problem into smaller, maybe more manegable parts?

Is it an idea if for each of these problematic categories, a thread would be made in the recruiting and categories part of the forum? Then we can see per category if the situation is as dire as it seems, we can do a kind of roll call of the officers. We can see if someone is able and willing to step up to solve the problem for the respective category, see wether it is possible to merge or expand the category, etc.

Maybe we can't solve all of the problematic categories, but it would sure help to minimise the problem.

11.6k · March 4, 2023

Regional coffee chains would benefit from a refresh.

11.6k · May 18, 2023

I think the Butterfly Garden officers migrated south.

1.3k · May 21, 2023

On 5/17/2023 at 9:45 PM, Max and 99 said:

I think the Butterfly Garden officers migrated south.

Rather inappropriate timing, I should think.

May 29, 2023

New World Ancient Evidence

Waiting for reviewing for exactly one month now.

May 31, 2023

I think today it takes too long to replace deadbeat officers and leaders when there are members willing to take over. This should be much faster. There should be much less tolerance for keeping officers and leaders who are no longer active waymarkers. This is the heart of the problem for me.

June 30, 2023

First, remove the "open enrollment:" option from Waymarking.
This makes no sense and is frustrating for good waymarkers when they want to look back at something in the category.
I used to use lumbricus to hijack a category when the Officers were asleep and not going to review.
If "open enrollment:" is set to Off that doesn't work.
Also the Permissions option should be discarded.
As Officer I can't edit some waymarks. WHY?
Second: Not reviewing is a big problem but why don't admins (wayfrog) respond to my emails when I want to help them in some categories.
But I don't want to say that all reviews are good, there are Officers who just want to be Officer to be higher in ranking and without reviewing in a minute click many waymarks as accepted.
As a result, Officers often don't know their own posting rules.
So I no longer know where to post my waymark, one Officer disapproves it and a few weeks later another Officer approves it.
I don't want to say I am perfect but when I tell my arguments in a re-review someone in America has to judge my waymark in Holland while that person has never heard of Holland. I am there on the spot and can tell what it looks like here.
btw I posted a waymark on 23/Jun/2023 (today still pending) in "Self Guided Walks and Trails"
wayfrog has been reviewing this category since 20/Sep/2020, thanks but thats not the way it goes.
Hint: maybe I can help?
Happy Waymarking and god bless.

Grtz, John.

June 30, 2023

1 hour ago, dreamhummie said:

First, remove the "open enrollment:" option from Waymarking.
This makes no sense and is frustrating for good waymarkers when they want to look back at something in the category.
I used to use lumbricus to hijack a category when the Officers were asleep and not going to review.
If "open enrollment:" is set to Off that doesn't work.
Also the Permissions option should be discarded.
As Officer I can't edit some waymarks. WHY?
Second: Not reviewing is a big problem but why don't admins (wayfrog) respond to my emails when I want to help them in some categories.
But I don't want to say that all reviews are good, there are Officers who just want to be Officer to be higher in ranking and without reviewing in a minute click many waymarks as accepted.
As a result, Officers often don't know their own posting rules.
So I no longer know where to post my waymark, one Officer disapproves it and a few weeks later another Officer approves it.
I don't want to say I am perfect but when I tell my arguments in a re-review someone in America has to judge my waymark in Holland while that person has never heard of Holland. I am there on the spot and can tell what it looks like here.
btw I posted a waymark on 23/Jun/2023 (today still pending) in "Self Guided Walks and Trails"
wayfrog has been reviewing this category since 20/Sep/2020, thanks but thats not the way it goes.
Hint: maybe I can help?
Happy Waymarking and god bless.

Grtz, John.

Okay do not worry.

I also offered myself for small categories and in which I could contribute and I had the same result.
Sometimes wayfrog responded that there were active officers in the category.

There are active officers sometimes, but they don't review. Other times those active officers have hundreds of categories, but the path of this game is that, dreamhummie.
It also does not solve the problem that they put you in the Netherlands, since you cannot / must approve your own marks.
The thing about being official to go up in the ranking, I didn't even think about it. The truth is that I thought it was altruistic to be a reviewer, do you know if they give bonuses or prizes? :-) It's a joke.

October 2, 2023

I am the only active officer in a category that I have submitted a waymark to. Nobody else has materialized to approve my waymark since I submitted it two weeks ago. Is it okay to approve my own waymark? I suppose I’m allowed to do it, but I’m sure a lot of other folks are in this situation. What do they do?

1.4k · October 3, 2023

This happens quite often. Just now I have a waymark waiting for over three weeks in a category I am officer. I would never approve my own waymarks.

Sooner or later waiting waymarks will be approved by wayfrog. Can you wait a few days more (maybe weeks)?

The perfect solution would be to get some new active officers. This is some effort, but the way to do it is quite well documented somewhere here in the forum. I must confess that I haven't done that yet. For me, currently, fast approvals are not essential.

tl;dr:

Don't approve your own waymarks.

Edited October 3, 2023 by fi67

9.3k · October 3, 2023

22 hours ago, Country_Wife said:

I am the only active officer in a category that I have submitted a waymark to. Nobody else has materialized to approve my waymark since I submitted it two weeks ago. Is it okay to approve my own waymark? I suppose I’m allowed to do it, but I’m sure a lot of other folks are in this situation. What do they do?

Either contact the other officers. Or, as you are an officer in the group consider promoting one of the other members of the group.

If the category isn't Open to new members open it! Providing the Leader hasn't set it so they are the only one with that option...

11.6k · October 3, 2023

23 hours ago, Country_Wife said:

I am the only active officer in a category that I have submitted a waymark to. Nobody else has materialized to approve my waymark since I submitted it two weeks ago. Is it okay to approve my own waymark? I suppose I’m allowed to do it, but I’m sure a lot of other folks are in this situation. What do they do?

No. Don't approve your own waymarks! Eventually, worst case scenario, wayfrog will approve it if it languishes too long.

Get some more active officers. That's the solution.

Name the category.

Edited October 3, 2023 by Max and 99

October 3, 2023

The group is Ice Cream Parlors: https://Waymarking.com/cat/details.aspx?f=1&guid=0047563a-00f1-4a4f-a79a-24b7031a1f8d

I’ve messaged Wayfrog like I would if it weren’t a category I managed.

Edited October 3, 2023 by Country_Wife

11.6k · October 3, 2023

Kind of good news that two of the six officers not including you have logged on within the last 48 hours.

1.4k · October 6, 2023

:mmraspberry:

1.3k · October 7, 2023

On 10/2/2023 at 1:47 PM, Country_Wife said:

I am the only active officer in a category that I have submitted a waymark to. Nobody else has materialized to approve my waymark since I submitted it two weeks ago. Is it okay to approve my own waymark? I suppose I’m allowed to do it, but I’m sure a lot of other folks are in this situation. What do they do?

I shall now assume that your WM has been approved, but ...

To answer your question, CW: "Is it okay to approve my own waymark?"

No, as it tends to brand one as being a somewhat less than totally honourable Waymarker. Basically, that's what our Wayfroggie is for.

Should a Waymark go unapproved for a sufficient length of time, our Wayfroggie will eventually get to it. I understand him to be a busy Froggie, yet retain confidence in his ability to finally get to all the outstanding Waymarks hereabouts. So, my advice would be to chill and, at least temporarily, worry about a few of the more important aspects of your life, as I'm sure that, as with the rest of us, Waymarking occupies a relatively insignificant portion of your cerebral activity.

Keith

Edited October 7, 2023 by ScroogieII

October 7, 2023

Yes, it has been approved, thanks for asking! And thanks for answering my initial question. It certainly didn’t feel legit to approve my own waymark!

1.3k · October 24, 2023

On 10/6/2023 at 8:04 PM, Country_Wife said:

Yes, it has been approved, thanks for asking! And thanks for answering my initial question. It certainly didn’t feel legit to approve my own waymark!

Hey CW. How gozit for you in La La Land?

You're quite welcome.

I don't have anything to add, wuz just wondering how you're doing, as I've been pretty busy of late and haven't had much time to hang out hereabouts.

BTW who approved it?

Keith

Edited October 24, 2023 by ScroogieII

Absent Leaders and Unresponsive Officers

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