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Which do you think will happen first?  Alamogul reaching 200,000 finds or mondou2 passing Alamogul?  

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34 minutes ago, NanCycle said:

Who cares.

 

1.  Alamogul

2.  mondou2

3.  geocat

4.  Probably three other people I haven't thought of yet.

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I have no idea who mondou2 is, but I assume they're the #2 behind alamogul in the number of find logs* based on the context of the post here.

 

Like NanCycle, I take a lot of these high numbers with a grain of salt a mile wide. I long ago lost count of the number of times I've seen a high-number cacher throw-down or otherwise do something that's generally regarded as unethical, thus providing an explanation of how they got those high numbers. It may be that I'm unjustly extrapolating the behaviour of a few onto the many, but after you've seen enough evidence, a pattern starts to emerge and it becomes increasingly likely that the extrapolation is accurate and justified and that there are few that are actually "clean".

 

Feel free to poke holes in my theory and otherwise defend those with high numbers, but it's unlikely to change my views due to the preponderance of evidence available.

 

*Note that I was careful not to say "finds"

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I'll jump in and add that I have absolutely no interest in these people.

 

Mainly because I haven't met them.  :D  I'm sure they are nice folks.

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At an event earlier this year I was talking with Mondou2 and he said it will be hard to pass Alamogul because they often cache together.  So I'd put the money on Alamogul reaching 200k first.  Definitely not my style of caching but they obviously enjoy it greatly.  And though it was somewhat brief, I really enjoyed chatting with him.

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15 minutes ago, The A-Team said:

I have no idea who mondou2 is, but I assume they're the #2 behind alamogul in the number of find logs* based on the context of the post here.

 

Like NanCycle, I take a lot of these high numbers with a grain of salt a mile wide. I long ago lost count of the number of times I've seen a high-number cacher throw-down or otherwise do something that's generally regarded as unethical, thus providing an explanation of how they got those high numbers. It may be that I'm unjustly extrapolating the behaviour of a few onto the many, but after you've seen enough evidence, a pattern starts to emerge and it becomes increasingly likely that the extrapolation is accurate and justified and that there are few that are actually "clean".

 

Feel free to poke holes in my theory and otherwise defend those with high numbers, but it's unlikely to change my views due to the preponderance of evidence available.

 

*Note that I was careful not to say "finds"

 

You paint with a pretty broad brush.  Mondou2 lives in the same state as I and to my knowledge his reputation is that of an avid, ethical cacher who is able to travel a lot to pursue his caching desires.

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Just now, icezebra11 said:

You paint with a pretty broad brush.  Mondou2 lives in the same state as I and to my knowledge his reputation is that of an avid, ethical cacher who is able to travel a lot to pursue his caching desires.

I'm sure that's true and that there are many other high-number cachers that have come by their numbers ethically (I have one locally). However, I'm pretty sure there are also many other high-number cachers for whom this cannot be said.

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Hello! Though I've been a part of the wonderful community of Cachers for  3 years, I'm still fairly new to the finding.  Having taken care of our mothers for the past 6 years until their recent passings, hubs & I, have now been able to get out and search more frequently.  I must say, I was drawn to the Hidden Creatures challenge and totally loved it!   Who ever thought of it, I say Thank You.  We just tested our 'old selves' on a power trail called Route 66.  What a blast!  Though we didn't get the entire route finished, we plan on going back probably several times to do so.  Just a personal challenge.  

Looking at this thread, I am a bit surprised at all the negative comments about others numbers, etc!  This really took me back.  Does it really make a difference?  Am I missing something?  I mean no disrespect, I am sincerely wondering why this is even on a discussion board.  I totally respect each and every cacher and am totally sure I can learn something from each of them, at least I hope so.    I am currently inquiring with another cacher about some of the mystery caches that have puzzles which can leave me guessing.    We can all be a help to one another from time to time, in one way shape or form.   Please... am I missing something? 

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30 minutes ago, Team Rogersway said:

Hello! Though I've been a part of the wonderful community of Cachers for  3 years, I'm still fairly new to the finding.  Having taken care of our mothers for the past 6 years until their recent passings, hubs & I, have now been able to get out and search more frequently.  I must say, I was drawn to the Hidden Creatures challenge and totally loved it!   Who ever thought of it, I say Thank You.  We just tested our 'old selves' on a power trail called Route 66.  What a blast!  Though we didn't get the entire route finished, we plan on going back probably several times to do so.  Just a personal challenge.  

Looking at this thread, I am a bit surprised at all the negative comments about others numbers, etc!  This really took me back.  Does it really make a difference?  Am I missing something?  I mean no disrespect, I am sincerely wondering why this is even on a discussion board.  I totally respect each and every cacher and am totally sure I can learn something from each of them, at least I hope so.    I am currently inquiring with another cacher about some of the mystery caches that have puzzles which can leave me guessing.    We can all be a help to one another from time to time, in one way shape or form.   Please... am I missing something? 

In a nutshell, the above comments are basically saying that once you know someone is a cheater, their numbers will forever be suspect. You can read more on the other threads, like how someone can find a cache every 90 seconds, or 1,000 in one day without some kind of questionable methods.  Or how some people claim finds on caches they have NEVER been to, because someone else signs their name (just as a few examples).

I'm only writing this log to explain a little to you, since you asked.

Don't shoot the messenger!

Edited by Max and 99
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1 hour ago, The A-Team said:

I'm sure that's true and that there are many other high-number cachers that have come by their numbers ethically (I have one locally). However, I'm pretty sure there are also many other high-number cachers for whom this cannot be said.

 

I rode along with a 5-figure cacher once as they came through town. They arrived, found, signed and left.  Maybe five minutes per cache.  Signing as the group.  One cache was a D4 I had tried several times.  Yep, they arrived, found, signed left... with a PAF almost as they stepped out of the car.  Cool.  I guess I'm... done puzzling over that one, it's right there.  With some, I was handed the box, and they're leaving NOW.

 

I don't like the signing as a group thing, where I definitely didn't even touch the log.  I don't like the in/out/gone thing, I want to check out the place.  I don't like PAF on every cache (I usually don't PAF on any, to me it's fun to try to figure out where a cache is hidden).  I really don't like not knowing exactly how the container was hidden so that I can return it to its place (yeah, maybe it was out in the open, I need to figure that out pronto, they're leaving).  To each his own, I guess.

 

I didn't witness any throwdowns on that day.  I think they added a dry log sheet a couple of times when the actual log was soaked (I often stay and dry a small log sheet, but sometimes add a clean one).  None of what I saw is what I call cheating or unethical.  But that life is not for me. 

 

And it's not for them, either.  I'm told a member of the duo became burned out and no longer participates.  Go figure.

 

Edited by kunarion
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3 minutes ago, kunarion said:

 

I rode along with a 5-figure cacher once as they came through town. They arrived, found, signed and left.  Maybe five minutes per cache.  Signing as the group.  One cache was a D4 I had tried several times.  Yep, they arrived, found, signed left.  With a PAF almost as they stepped out of the car.  Cool.  I guess I'm... done puzzling over that one, it's right there.  With some, I was handed the box, and they're leaving NOW.

 

I don't like the signing as a group thing, where I definitely didn't even touch the log.  I don't like the in/out/gone thing, I want to check out the place.  I don't like PAF on every cache (I usually don't PAF on any).  I really don't like not knowing exactly how the container was hidden so that I can return it to its place (yeah, maybe it was out in the open, I need to figure that out pronto, they're leaving).  To each his own, I guess.

 

I didn't witness any throwdowns on that day.  I think they added a dry log sheet a couple of times when the actual log was soaked (I often stay and dry a small log sheet, but sometimes add a clean one).  None of what I saw is what I call cheating or unethical.  But that life is not for me. 

 

And it's not for them, either.  I'm told a member of the duo became burned out and no longer participates.  Go figure.

I guess I figure it's not a race for a million dollars.  In my mind it's a personal fun time!  A time to spend with family or friends.  A time to get some outdoor fresh air.  And yes to see new sights!  But like you say to each his own.  Thanks for responding so quickly!

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11 minutes ago, Max and 99 said:

In a nutshell, the above comments are basically saying that once you know someone is a cheater, their numbers will forever be suspect. You can read more on the other threads, like how someone can find a cache every 90 seconds, or 1,000 in one day without some kind of questionable methods.  Or how someone people claim finds on caches they have NEVER been to, because someone else signs their name (just as a few examples).

I'm only writing this log to explain a little to you, since you asked.

Thanks for responding so quickly.  I understand,  We had 75 park and grab experiences on a power trail yesterday.  The caches were literally about 1/10th to 2/10ths miles apart.  We literally found over 20 in a 3 mile stretch!  It was fun, fast and furious.  And gave us an opportunity to complete our Hidden Creatures.  

 

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16 hours ago, The A-Team said:

I'm sure that's true and that there are many other high-number cachers that have come by their numbers ethically (I have one locally). However, I'm pretty sure there are also many other high-number cachers for whom this cannot be said.

 

There is a cacher I know who is creeping up on the 10,000 mark and AFAIK all of his finds are legitimate.  He used to live around here but moved to another area, gaining a whole new collection of caches to find.  

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18 hours ago, geocat_ said:

Which do you think will happen first?  Alamogul reaching 200,000 finds or mondou2 passing Alamogul?  

 

I know not and care less :P

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Between the two, Alamogul will probably hit the number first. Gotta say though, I may beat both of them. Just looked at my stats and see that I've logged 12  geocaches since 7-17-17 (one year). I'm definitely in contention! :D

 

I met Alamogul some time back and did get to observe him at work play. No doubt, he's definitely a go getter!

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17 hours ago, The A-Team said:

I'm sure that's true and that there are many other high-number cachers that have come by their numbers ethically (I have one locally). However, I'm pretty sure there are also many other high-number cachers for whom this cannot be said.

 

There was a thread awhile back that alleged that some high  number cachers used a team name to log several thousand caches in a very high density area in Europe (one PT has over 5000 caches) then a few others on "the team" logged them as found with their individual user name even though they didn't even travel to Europe.

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19 hours ago, icezebra11 said:

 

You paint with a pretty broad brush.  Mondou2 lives in the same state as I and to my knowledge his reputation is that of an avid, ethical cacher who is able to travel a lot to pursue his caching desires.

 

 

Well, I've personally witnessed mondou2 logging a find on a throwdown he left on a cache near me when he claimed he couldn't find it.  When I went to see, the original was still right where I found it and still what I would consider a D1.5 hide.  So yeah...you can say what you want about him, but I've seen how he works and have to agree with A-Team on this one.

 

If he logs a find on a cache of mine, I would likely confirm and definitely wouldn't hesitate to delete a log for a throwdown.

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19 hours ago, kunarion said:

I rode along with a 5-figure cacher once as they came through town. They arrived, found, signed and left.  Maybe five minutes per cache.  Signing as the group.  One cache was a D4 I had tried several times.  Yep, they arrived, found, signed left... with a PAF almost as they stepped out of the car.  Cool.  I guess I'm... done puzzling over that one, it's right there.  With some, I was handed the box, and they're leaving NOW.

 

Similar to Clark Griswold's grand canyon nod n go.  :D

 

I was with a "hurried" cacher once.  A couple caches in a series.   

Kept saying something about that &#@ cerberus and FTFs (at the time, the other 2/3rds was a FTF monster, FTFs in ours and another state).

Back at the car, asked, "what's your name again?"  ...  "cerberus1"...   :laughing:

That same person was at an event, and the EO wasn't there yet.  Still in a hurry, asked all present to "tell him I was here, and I gotta go".

 - I wouldn't want that kinda hobby...

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Some of the high stats used to come because of sloppiness. The cacher would use some automated script, and end up posting multiple logs. They would never take the time to clean up the duplicates.

 

As for my opinion on the 'race', like several others have said, I don';t care.

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On 7/16/2018 at 2:43 PM, NanCycle said:

I just had a cacher with over 41,000 "finds" claim a find on a throw down when he couldn't find one of my caches.  I just have to wonder how many of these multi-thousand finds are just as bogus.

Hard to imagine getting to 41K with a significant number of throwdowns. Say this guy has dropped a throwdown for an unbelievable 5% of his finds: 39K is still an impressively big number. As I once joked about a local cacher when I couldn't find his name on a log he just signed, "I bet he only has 20 gazillion finds, not the 21 gazillion he's claimed." (It turned out the signature was just in the middle of a bifurcated log somewhere. The cacher in question took it as the joke it was, but one of his friends raked me over the coals for questioning his ethics...)

 

I've had Alamogul fly through a few times while I was looking for or walking away from a cache, and I have no doubt most if not all of his numbers are real. The one time I heard an unsubstantiated whisper of doubt about his practices, but the anecdote repeated to me, if true, seemed clearly because power trails are boring, not because he wanted an extra couple hundred caches so bad he was willing to cheat for them.

 

I don't doubt that there are some high numbers seekers that are sloppy and do throwdowns, so feel free to complain about it happening. But I seriously doubt their numbers are significantly higher because of that.

 

Oh, to answer the question: I think Alamogul will reach 200K first. I say that because every other time I've heard anyone say "When will Alamogul reach X", he's usually already blown past X before I even saw the question.

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On 7/16/2018 at 6:19 PM, The Leprechauns said:

 

1.  Alamogul

2.  mondou2

3.  geocat

4.  Probably three other people I haven't thought of yet.

 

Plus some of the readers and posters in this thread.  Plus thousands of other players.

 

We may feel that other achievements are more important (like curing diseases), but why the tallies and why the Guinness Book of Records?  Because even "irrelevant" achievements are achievements!  People care - big-time!  Even if they deny it!  Especially when they deny it!

;)

Even if a percentage of the big number finds can be challenged, the remaining 98% are awesome!  They did it - we didn't.  Period.

 

Did 100,00 finds change the world?  Did breaking the 4-minute mile change the world?  Not really...but they are achievements.

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9 hours ago, wmpastor said:

 

Even if a percentage of the big number finds can be challenged, the remaining 98% are awesome!  They did it - we didn't.  Period.

 

Did 100,00 finds change the world?  Did breaking the 4-minute mile change the world?  Not really...but they are achievements.

 

I agree, which makes false find claims even more perplexing.  If we're talking 1/2%...or even 2% being throwdowns or false find logs...that means they still have 150,000 valid finds.  Why would you need to fake 1000?  Faking any at that point just makes no real sense.

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5 hours ago, Team Microdot said:

 

How do you know this?

 

I say that for two reasons.  First, human nature is such that in any activity people are intrigued by the extremes.  Second, the high numbers cachers have been discussed in the forum for years.

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40 minutes ago, wmpastor said:
5 hours ago, Team Microdot said:

 

How do you know this?

 

I say that for two reasons.  First, human nature is such that in any activity people are intrigued by the extremes.  Second, the high numbers cachers have been discussed in the forum for years.

 

Ah - you guessed.

 

I understand ^_^

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On 7/16/2018 at 4:36 PM, geocat_ said:

Which do you think will happen first?  Alamogul reaching 200,000 finds or mondou2 passing Alamogul?  

Probably whoever can couch log or place throwdowns the fastest. Never met either, but whenever Mondou2 comes to the area we get blessed with plastic Easter eggs and pill bottles with his name stamped on the tiny piece of paper inside.

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1 minute ago, ottieolsen said:

whenever Mondou2 comes to the area we get blessed with plastic Easter eggs and pill bottles with his name stamped on the tiny piece of paper inside.

 

A poor substitute for the Easter Bunny.

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15 hours ago, dprovan said:

fly through

 

Not naming any names, but speaking of flying through, this is what happens:

 

Quote

Sorry everyone. Its tough to have to constantly repair this series everytime power cachers come flying into town, and leapfrog containers. takes the fun out of the game. Thanks for all who did this series.

 

 

Quote

I had to come out east today to fix my 3 different . . . series that someone leapfrogged and scrambled all the containers and clues for... again. It took us about 3.5 hours to fix it all up, not including travel time to and from the. . .  area which is south and east of here.

 

 

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12 hours ago, wmpastor said:

 

Plus some of the readers and posters in this thread.  Plus thousands of other players.

 

We may feel that other achievements are more important (like curing diseases), but why the tallies and why the Guinness Book of Records?  Because even "irrelevant" achievements are achievements!  People care - big-time!  Even if they deny it!  Especially when they deny it!

;)

Even if a percentage of the big number finds can be challenged, the remaining 98% are awesome!  They did it - we didn't.  Period.

 

Did 100,00 finds change the world?  Did breaking the 4-minute mile change the world?  Not really...but they are achievements.

You significantly underestimate the impact of Dr Bannister's achievement. His accomplishment inspired many to attempt personal challenges they might otherwise have seen as impossible. His training methods continue to be relevant today.

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3 hours ago, J Grouchy said:

I agree, which makes false find claims even more perplexing.  If we're talking 1/2%...or even 2% being throwdowns or false find logs...that means they still have 150,000 valid finds.  Why would you need to fake 1000?  Faking any at that point just makes no real sense.

They're only perplexing if you can't shake the idea that people with high numbers are in it just for the numbers. My guess is that throwdowns and false finds are motivated more by impatience and a desire to clear an area completely than because they give one more find.

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Play the game however you want to play it. Not my cup of tea but the beauty of the game is you can do what ever you want. Went for four today and got only two smilies out of the endeavor. I'm happy and the dogs are happy (and water was involved) that is all that matters.

 

Let the power finders do that which they enjoy doing. And you can do the same. Does it hurt you? If it's your cache you have the option of deleting the log if a throw down was improperly placed since they failed to sign THE log. 

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On 7/16/2018 at 5:01 PM, kunarion said:

 

I rode along with a 5-figure cacher once as they came through town. They arrived, found, signed and left.  Maybe five minutes per cache.  Signing as the group.  One cache was a D4 I had tried several times.  Yep, they arrived, found, signed left... with a PAF almost as they stepped out of the car.  Cool.  I guess I'm... done puzzling over that one, it's right there.  With some, I was handed the box, and they're leaving NOW.

 

I don't like the signing as a group thing, where I definitely didn't even touch the log.  I don't like the in/out/gone thing, I want to check out the place.  I don't like PAF on every cache (I usually don't PAF on any, to me it's fun to try to figure out where a cache is hidden).  I really don't like not knowing exactly how the container was hidden so that I can return it to its place (yeah, maybe it was out in the open, I need to figure that out pronto, they're leaving).  To each his own, I guess.

 

...  None of what I saw is what I call cheating or unethical.  But that life is not for me. 

 

I wouldn't enjoy caching as much as I do if I was with someone who "arrived, signed. and left" - the in/out/gone as you put it.  We enjoy the walk or drive to the site, we look, sometimes making a quick find, sometimes not.  We sign the logsheet, and try to put things back as we found it, or better, in keeping with the hint.  Especially if we find something in the open when it's obviously not where it was originally intended to be. 

 

We used PAF once, on a Wherigo that led us to a signboard ... that had changed.  The sign referenced in the cartridge was no longer there, so we had to phone the CO ; now he's aware and we could continue the cartridge.  On a routine basis though, no we don't use the PAF option!

 

Numbers and stats are fun to look at, sometimes compare with others, but I enjoy the hunt, the satisfation of finding, the accomplishment of solving a puzzle and finding the final cache ... Going just for the numbers means I would miss a lot of other stuff along the way (seeing placement, putting it back, puttiing MY NAME in the logbook - etc).  Even when hubby and I cache together, we only use our "team name" of SL2 if it'sa nano log and there isn't room for both of us to sign our geo-names.

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2 hours ago, MNTA said:

Play the game however you want to play it. Not my cup of tea but the beauty of the game is you can do what ever you want. Went for four today and got only two smilies out of the endeavor. I'm happy and the dogs are happy (and water was involved) that is all that matters.

 

Let the power finders do that which they enjoy doing. And you can do the same. Does it hurt you? If it's your cache you have the option of deleting the log if a throw down was improperly placed since they failed to sign THE log. 

Well, yes, sometimes it does affect me. If someone tosses a throwdown on a difficult cache and I don't know it, and subsequently I find the throwdown and not the original cache, then my log gets deleted along with the cheater's log. That's not fair to me and may very well have kept me from an interesting and potentially better, experience.

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7 hours ago, Michaelcycle said:

You significantly underestimate the impact of Dr Bannister's achievement. His accomplishment inspired many to attempt personal challenges they might otherwise have seen as impossible. His training methods continue to be relevant today.

 

But don't miss where I'm going with this.  I *don't* side with those who say that 100,000 finds or a 4-minute mile are irrelevant.  I'm arguing that they *do* mean something.  I agree that these things have inspirational value, even if they don't cure disease or create wealth.

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I threw one down once....at my wedding and it was a shot of Jack Daniels :P

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Back to the original question.  (Too much time on my hands.)

 

As of this afternoon:

Alamogul – 183,693 finds

From profile page: About 816 find logs (traditionals) in the last 80 days (since 4/30/18) (OK, I don’t have that much time on my hands.) So that’s a rate of 10.2 finds/day.

200,000 – 183,693 = 16,307 finds to reach 200,000

 

16,307/10.2 = 1,599 days

 

mondou2 – 173,814 finds

From profile page: About 781 finds in last 24 days (since 6/17/18)

So that’s a rate of 32.5 finds/day

200,000 – 173,814 = 26,186 finds to reach 200,000

 

26,186/32.5 = 806 days

 

So mondou2 will pass Alamogul before Alamogul reaches 200,000.

 

QED

 

No need to thank me.

 

 

Past performance does not guarantee future earnings.  Objects in mirror are closer than they appear.  Your mileage may vary.  If you have an FTF for more than four hours, seek medical attention.

 

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Why would you compare one player's last 80 day rate to another player's last 24 day rate?? How can they be considered equivalent?

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That was just convenience.  Feel free to calculate rates on a different sample size.

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20 hours ago, dprovan said:

My guess is that throwdowns and false finds are motivated more by impatience and a desire to clear an area completely than because they give one more find.

This.

 

I've heard that "motivation" more than once, when asking what the problem is if you have one or two DNFs on a long cache trail, or in your home zone. The few additional finds don't matter, but "there are boxes without smileys on the map! OMG!!!".

 

If you want to cheat for (very) high numbers, throwdowns won't help you. There are much more efficient tactics for that ;) (like logging big PTs without actually visiting them, knowing full well, that no CO will ever check the logs).

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18 hours ago, MNTA said:

Play the game however you want to play it. Not my cup of tea but the beauty of the game is you can do what ever you want.

 

enh, no. You can play within the guidelines. And if you just play thinking only of yourself and not how your actions influence the experience of others, then you ultimately help pull down the quality of the community if you do negatively affect others' experiences - even if you're playing "within the rules".  There's the letter of the law and the spirit of the law. Geocaching is loose enough that playing only by the letter of the law won't make for a very fun hobby environment (even if it's the best for you).

 

Enjoy powertrails. Or LPCs. Or high-tech puzzles. Or enjoy only finding large container trail hiking caches. Use a smartphone. Or use a GPSr to the exclusion of all else. Each are different ways to enjoy the game. But people in each camp can make the game worse for others if they only ever consider playing the game how they want.

 

But anyway...

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23 hours ago, MNTA said:

Play the game however you want to play it. Not my cup of tea but the beauty of the game is you can do what ever you want.

No. Geocaching is not a free-for-all. There are generally agreed-upon "rules" that help ensure that everyone can have a similar experience while geocaching. If someone starts doing things outside of those "rules", it can degrade the experience of others.

 

For example, we often see people saying, "So what if someone bogus-logs a cache? They're only cheating themselves." That can also affect other cachers. A bogus find can obscure possible issues with the cache, like if they log a find after a series of DNFs from other cachers. Or there's the case of throwdowns: "...but they're just helping the owner by fixing the cache for them and/or helping the community by keeping the cache going". Throwdowns can cause more work for the owner because there may now be multiple containers at GZ, they can "enable" owners who are shirking their responsibilities by relying on the community to maintain their caches, and they can prolong the life of a problematic cache that would benefit the community best by being archived.

 

So, yes, your actions as a cacher can and do affect other cachers. If geocaching was really an anarchic free-for-all, it wouldn't be fun; it would be chaos.

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I agree with the last 2 posts. There is a wonderful range of flexibility and customization in the world geocaching, but there is also a line and consideration for others in the game must be given.

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17 minutes ago, The A-Team said:

No. Geocaching is not a free-for-all. There are generally agreed-upon "rules" that help ensure that everyone can have a similar experience while geocaching. If someone starts doing things outside of those "rules", it can degrade the experience of others.

 

For example, we often see people saying, "So what if someone bogus-logs a cache? They're only cheating themselves." That can also affect other cachers. A bogus find can obscure possible issues with the cache, like if they log a find after a series of DNFs from other cachers. Or there's the case of throwdowns: "...but they're just helping the owner by fixing the cache for them and/or helping the community by keeping the cache going". Throwdowns can cause more work for the owner because there may now be multiple containers at GZ, they can "enable" owners who are shirking their responsibilities by relying on the community to maintain their caches, and they can prolong the life of a problematic cache that would benefit the community best by being archived.

 

So, yes, your actions as a cacher can and do affect other cachers. If geocaching was really an anarchic free-for-all, it wouldn't be fun; it would be chaos.

You gave great examples of things most cachers don't like. The fact is unless GS is willing to penalize folks or limit folks for those behaviors complaining in a forum does not accomplish much.  

 

A lot of these disliked behaviors are due to a couple of root causes solve these and less of the bad behavior will occur.

1) Cache maintenance. The current method is frankly not working well, despite all the rules and guidelines and desirers. This lead to things like throw downs, and bogus logs all for the accomplishment of eating a found it log. I think this would go a long way and is tightly linked with cache quality.

2) Cache maintenance & CO accountability - Look at the paper logs if you are so inclined, audit them and delete fake logs. However if you choose to do this 6 months after a throw down it's not fair to the folks that found it afterwards. So if you suspect mischief go take a look right away. Even as a finder you can help the CO by saying hey the log does not match the website. I do dislike the folks that put this in their logs so would recommend private message to CO.

3) Label the logs with the cache name. That way the three car shuffling and other issues can get removed. Put in your description that you accept only your cache log and if it is missing you found the wrong thing, because you as a CO maintain your caches if there is a problem you will fix it quickly all other finds are simply not my cache.

4) File NM/NA when required. This prevents future folks from doing the frowned upon behavior. Help monitor those caches to see they get resolved and not in a frowned upon way. You are the first DNF on a 1/1 cache with a specific placement hint, nope not there file the NM & the DNF. Help make it clear to the CO there is an issue, obviously many COs no longer read the logs or notes. 

5) Power trails, GRC, PNG, LPC, micro, nano  what ever else is part of the game good or bad. So clearly there is not consensus on even generally agreed upon rules. What is agreed upon is that you don't have to find them all nor can you. So simply ignore these if you don't want to find them but don't limit others from enjoying them. Not everyone who does a powertrail is cheating. GS should start promoting the "ignore" list and provide better search, editing, and cleanup of this list.

 

 

 

 

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Don't really believe these numbers. I'm sure some of the high numbers cachers are 100% honest, but I bet I wouldn't run out of fingers counting them.

 

We have one guy locally who's considered honest. But even he admitted to me in person to group-finding at least one series because he thought finding them all would have taken way too long. 

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35 minutes ago, MNTA said:

You gave great examples of things most cachers don't like. The fact is unless GS is willing to penalize folks or limit folks for those behaviors complaining in a forum does not accomplish much.  

 

A lot of these disliked behaviors are due to a couple of root causes solve these and less of the bad behavior will occur.

1) Cache maintenance. The current method is frankly not working well, despite all the rules and guidelines and desirers. This lead to things like throw downs, and bogus logs all for the accomplishment of eating a found it log. I think this would go a long way and is tightly linked with cache quality.

2) Cache maintenance & CO accountability - Look at the paper logs if you are so inclined, audit them and delete fake logs. However if you choose to do this 6 months after a throw down it's not fair to the folks that found it afterwards. So if you suspect mischief go take a look right away. Even as a finder you can help the CO by saying hey the log does not match the website. I do dislike the folks that put this in their logs so would recommend private message to CO.

3) Label the logs with the cache name. That way the three car shuffling and other issues can get removed. Put in your description that you accept only your cache log and if it is missing you found the wrong thing, because you as a CO maintain your caches if there is a problem you will fix it quickly all other finds are simply not my cache.

4) File NM/NA when required. This prevents future folks from doing the frowned upon behavior. Help monitor those caches to see they get resolved and not in a frowned upon way. You are the first DNF on a 1/1 cache with a specific placement hint, nope not there file the NM & the DNF. Help make it clear to the CO there is an issue, obviously many COs no longer read the logs or notes. 

5) Power trails, GRC, PNG, LPC, micro, nano  what ever else is part of the game good or bad. So clearly there is not consensus on even generally agreed upon rules. What is agreed upon is that you don't have to find them all nor can you. So simply ignore these if you don't want to find them but don't limit others from enjoying them. Not everyone who does a powertrail is cheating. GS should start promoting the "ignore" list and provide better search, editing, and cleanup of this list.

 

Quite a bit of what you say here can be boiled down to "use the tools that we've been provided with and be honest". If folks logged their DNFs rather than throwing-down and used NM/NA as appropriate, we'd be able to avoid lots of these issues and we wouldn't be questioning the validity of those cachers with high numbers.

 

As for complaining in the forums, that's actually one of the best ways to change the behaviour we're discussing here. In most cases, these high-number cachers using questionable tactics keep doing so because nobody says anything. If we - as a community - publicly discuss our dislike of such behaviour, that might get these people to stop. I encourage you to bring this up in other platforms too, like local Facebook groups or at events. If we repeatedly proclaim our disdain for those who throw-down and otherwise use unethical tactics to "game the system", it might eventually have an effect. It would also help educate new cachers who may see this behaviour being used by existing cachers and may not have considered the downsides of emulating it.

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4 minutes ago, The A-Team said:

 

If we - as a community - publicly discuss our dislike of such behaviour, that might get these people to stop. I encourage you to bring this up in other platforms too, like local Facebook groups or at events. If we repeatedly proclaim our disdain for those who throw-down and otherwise use unethical tactics to "game the system", it might eventually have an effect. It would also help educate new cachers who may see this behaviour being used by existing cachers and may not have considered the downsides of emulating it.

 

Great suggestion I will try!

 

 

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33 minutes ago, Inmountains said:

And his gravestone read "He found 253,943 Geocaches"! hmmmmmmm

 

That gravestone could then become a virtual waypoint in a multi, where the numerals in the find count get unscrambled to become the coordinates. Someone will need to bump him off at just the right find count though...

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