Downloads clarified??

[+lee737]

From the guidelines for placing a cache....

 

Quote

A cache page that requires one or more of the following will generally not be published:

• Using memory sticks and similar devices
• Installing files or executing programs

 

Fair enough I always thought - memory sticks and unknown files/executables can carry all sorts of damaging stuff.... but.... this week I'm trying to get a cache published, and it was refused on the basis that the reviewer couldn't work it out with my instructions and the software in a standard windows install. Is this what these guidelines are there to stop? We aren't talking some expensive, specialised software here either, just something a touch better than Paint.

[+NYPaddleCacher]

2 hours ago, lee737 said:

Fair enough I always thought - memory sticks and unknown files/executables can carry all sorts of damaging stuff.... but.... this week I'm trying to get a cache published, and it was refused on the basis that the reviewer couldn't work it out with my instructions and the software in a standard windows install.

 

Maybe the reviewer used a Mac.  I have seen issues when a cache requires a *specific* application to be downloaded.  Requiring an image editor might pass but requiring a specific image editing tool, downloaded from a specific location might not.  

[+lee737]

Just now, NYPaddleCacher said:

 

Maybe the reviewer used a Mac.  I have seen issues when a cache requires a *specific* application to be downloaded.  Requiring an image editor might pass but requiring a specific image editing tool, downloaded from a specific location might not.  

 

It was me using the mac....

Nothing specific was needed, any typical image editor can do it, even 'Preview' in macos, just 'Paint' couldn't do it, so it was refused publication..... I was then asked to provide two examples of online tools that people could use to solve it.

I feel the spirit of the guidelines is to prevent harmful content, not to ensure nobody has to ever buy anything to solve a puzzle.... hell, we just bought a kayak for caching.... and an SUV for that matter.....

 

[+NYPaddleCacher]

1 hour ago, lee737 said:

 

It was me using the mac....

Nothing specific was needed, any typical image editor can do it, even 'Preview' in macos, just 'Paint' couldn't do it, so it was refused publication..... I was then asked to provide two examples of online tools that people could use to solve it.

I feel the spirit of the guidelines is to prevent harmful content, not to ensure nobody has to ever buy anything to solve a puzzle.... hell, we just bought a kayak for caching.... and an SUV for that matter.....

 

 

It sounds like the reviewer was asking some reasonable questions but I'm surprised that it wouldn't be published because the puzzle could not be solved with Paint.  I've got three kayaks, a canoe, and an SUV but didn't buy any of them specifically for geocaching.  

[+arisoft]

I have also seen this secret rule in practice.

 

I explained that my new puzzle is steganographic and it needs a special tool to open the message from the image. I told that there is one on-line tool you can use without installing any software. My idea was denied because there is a secret rule that a steganographic puzzle needs two separate on-line tools to be accepted. (I think this is a fair requirement for stegos but it is not fair to keep this information secret)

 

Because the rule is secret, we can not verify or discuss about what the rule actually is. As far as I know, there is no rule that all puzzles must be solved using Windows. Maybe you should make it an Apple only puzzle.

Edited June 26, 2018 by arisoft

[+lee737]

I suppose if you were clever you could just go through the hex of the image and work it out without an image editor..... but then you'd need to download a hex editor.... I've solved several puzzles that needed a hex editor, none of these are standard install software are they?

 

[+redsox_mark]

A reviewer may be able to shed more light on this.   From my understanding:

 

- If it requires one specific software package to be downloaded, it won't be allowed.

- If it requires one specific online tool, it won't be allowed.

 

After that I'm unclear.   I've seen puzzles which require an advanced audio editor (like Audacity).. but there are alternatives.    Though I don't believe there are any online tools which will solve the ones I'm thinking of, it "needs" a download of some kind.  

I say "needs".. one could, in theory, program your own audio editor with standard tools, though for most this is not practical (and the CO can probably not demonstrate how).

 

Is a puzzle which can be solved by multiple, free software packages (but any of them require an install) allowed?     Not sure.

 

 

[+arisoft]

2 hours ago, redsox_mark said:

- If it requires one specific online tool, it won't be allowed.

 

Not true, I think. Many puzzles are heavily depending on single special web site. For example Jigidi jigsaw puzzles and W3W geohash puzzles and other similar proprietary database puzzles. Maybe the secret rule is limited only to image manipulation puzzles.

[+dprovan]

4 hours ago, lee737 said:

Nothing specific was needed, any typical image editor can do it, even 'Preview' in macos, just 'Paint' couldn't do it, so it was refused publication..... I was then asked to provide two examples of online tools that people could use to solve it.

I'm confused. What's the problem? If there are many common tools that will do the trick, why don't you just send the reviewer pointers to a couple of them?

[+arisoft]

2 hours ago, lee737 said:

but then you'd need to download a hex editor.

 

There was hex editor (debug) in Windows up to XP, at least, but there are many hex editors available as on-line tools. (https://hex-works.com/eng)

 

[+redsox_mark]

14 minutes ago, dprovan said:

I'm confused. What's the problem? If there are many common tools that will do the trick, why don't you just send the reviewer pointers to a couple of them?

 

My understanding is the OP did that, but it wasn't accepted under the  no "Installing files or executing programs" guideline.

 

[+Viajero Perdido]

When it comes to puzzles where you need to dismantle images, it could be argued that virtually any paint program will do.

 

If a program has has a Color Picker tool (eg set foreground color from the pixel you're pointing at), then arguably you could examine the entire image in detail.  It would be tedious in the extreme, but it could be done.

 

A reviewer insisted on Windows-something-or-other?  How archaic!

[+arisoft]

22 minutes ago, Viajero Perdido said:

If a program has has a Color Picker tool (eg set foreground color from the pixel you're pointing at), then arguably you could examine the entire image in detail.  It would be tedious in the extreme, but it could be done.

 

If you convert the image to PPM format you have done this automatically. Then you can use any spreadsheet to solve the puzzle.

Edited June 26, 2018 by arisoft

[+NYPaddleCacher]

4 hours ago, lee737 said:

I suppose if you were clever you could just go through the hex of the image and work it out without an image editor..... but then you'd need to download a hex editor.... I've solved several puzzles that needed a hex editor, none of these are standard install software are they?

 

 I solved a couple of steganographic puzzles using a command that is standard on every linux based system (it's also available in MacOS from the command line).  It's somewhat hidden on a Windows machine but also available as a command line tool if one uses Cygwin (basically, a collection of unix like tools that run on a PC).  The strings command will display strings in a binary file and is one of the first things I'll try on an image from a puzzle cache.   I have also seen steganographic based puzzles that couldn't be solved with Strings and none of the well known online tools or downloadable apps available. There are lots of ways to use steganography in a puzzle, and some might even required a detailed understanding of the structure of an image to manually extract the hidden data.  In fact, that's always an option if one doesn't want to just download a tool that is going to spit out the solution.

 

[+lee737]

5 hours ago, redsox_mark said:

 

My understanding is the OP did that, but it wasn't accepted under the  no "Installing files or executing programs" guideline.

 

 

Exactly - there are dozens of cheap readily available applications that will do the job on any OS.... but because they are 'downloaded' weren't accepted.... Again I don't feel this is what the guidelines really mean?

[+lee737]

5 hours ago, arisoft said:

 

There was hex editor (debug) in Windows up to XP, at least, but there are many hex editors available as on-line tools. (https://hex-works.com/eng)

 

 

There is too... I've always had the software, but remember seeing an online one recently....

 

[+TriciaG]

Maybe it'd be best to ask Appeals for clarification/a second opinion.

[+niraD]

10 minutes ago, TriciaG said:

Maybe it'd be best to ask Appeals for clarification/a second opinion.

And then post their reply, so the rest of us know.

[+barefootjeff]

9 hours ago, lee737 said:

I suppose if you were clever you could just go through the hex of the image and work it out without an image editor..... but then you'd need to download a hex editor.... I've solved several puzzles that needed a hex editor, none of these are standard install software are they?

 

 

There's an online hex dump page at https://www.fileformat.info/tool/hexdump.htm which I often use to see what lurks inside images. No need to download anything.