Girl from Czech Republic died today while geocaching...

[+hzoi]

3 hours ago, JL_HSTRE said:

Europeans are notorious for their exploration of abandoned places and areas that, in the US, would be strictly off limits.

 

Yup.  Poking around abandoned castles and bunkers was one of the things I most enjoyed about living in Germany, whether a geocache was there or not.  I'm looking forward to going back to Germany this summer, and that's just one reason why.

 

Europeans have a very different approach to property ownership and personal responsibility.  Might be one reason why there are literally almost ten times as many geocaches hidden around the capital of Hessen, Germany (~ 114,000), than there are hidden around the capital of Virginia, USA (~ 12,000).

 

I find it pretty ridiculous that American society has abdicated personal responsibility and handed things over to insurance companies and personal injury attorneys to battle over.  As a consenting adult, and an attorney, I know my limits, and if I exceed them, I am fully prepared to face the consequences.

Edited June 15, 2018 by hzoi

[+Team DEMP]

2 hours ago, hzoi said:

Might be one reason why there are literally almost ten times as many geocaches hidden around the capital of Hessen, Germany (~ 112,000), than there are hidden around Virginia, USA (~ 12,000)

Holy smokes! Looks more like a Munzee map than a geocaching map to me. 

[+JL_HSTRE]

On 6/15/2018 at 2:42 PM, hzoi said:

Yup.  Poking around abandoned castles and bunkers was one of the things I most enjoyed about living in Germany, whether a geocache was there or not.  I'm looking forward to going back to Germany this summer, and that's just one reason why.

 

Europeans have a very different approach to property ownership and personal responsibility.  Might be one reason why there are literally almost ten times as many geocaches hidden around the capital of Hessen, Germany (~ 114,000), than there are hidden around the capital of Virginia, USA (~ 12,000).

 

I find it pretty ridiculous that American society has abdicated personal responsibility and handed things over to insurance companies and personal injury attorneys to battle over.  As a consenting adult, and an attorney, I know my limits, and if I exceed them, I am fully prepared to face the consequences.

 

Just because 100,000 caches might fit in Richmond, VA doesn't mean they should be there. I doubt there are 100,000 places in Richmond worth visiting. There probably aren't even 12,000.

 

As for abandoned buildings: there are a number of issues unrelated to whether or not someone could get sued, in particular trespassing (Europe apparently has very loose laws on the subject of what constitutes private property) and that most people who explore abandoned buildings lack the qualifications to make a reasonably accurate assessment about the safety of the building. Just because you're legally entitled to decide to do something doesn't mean it's a good idea.

[+MartyBartfast]

An unfortunate tale indeed.

 

Does anyone know whether the missing cacher has been found, and if so alive or dead?

 

[+AnnaMoritz]

According to https://praha.idnes.cz/keskar-mrtvy-muz-vltava-policie-daq-/praha-zpravy.aspx?c=A180615_134953_praha-zpravy_nuc also the missing man is dead and was found in the river on Friday.

[+bejcci]

Reportage by Czech Television (start at 24:20 Tunel smrti) http://www.ceskatelevize.cz/porady/10117034229-168-hodin/218452801100617

Spokesman of the Police of the Czech republic answered the question "Is the entry forbidden?" No, but the visitors have to take the risks.

[vvitty & aka]

I would extend a bit the translation of the spokesman of Czech Police -

"There is a certain legend and rules mentioned for each geocache. People has to read them and decide if they have enough skills to made it or not."

"Entry to this place is not forbidden, but it is not easy to access thus people entering has to understand where they go."

[+noncentric]

On 6/14/2018 at 4:39 AM, JL_HSTRE said:

What if the trail is susceptible to flash floods, but this isn't indicated by any signage?

 

Or to use my recent vacation: most waterfall-related deaths are people climbing the falls, being careless at the top, etc. What if I'm standing at a designated overlook on an official trail not doing anything improper when part of the overlook collapses and I fall to my death?

 

(Not saying either is a direct comparison to the sewer death, but this thread has branched out to deal with larger issues of land manager/owner responsibility.)

Flooding - if someone caused the flash flood, then that someone could be liable. For example, if a dam collapses because some defect was reported but not addressed in a timely manner.  If it was expected that a flash flood would hit a trail, then some type of warning should be posted, but if the flash flood is something that could not be predicted, then I don't see that the landowner should be held liable.

Overlook - if the land manager had no way of knowing that the overlook was unstable, then I don't see that they should be held liable. If there was a periodic maintenance plan for the overlook and it was not done, and that's why the overlook failed, then there could be some liability - but only if the cause of the overlook's failure would've been addressed even with the maintenance.

 

How about this - most of coastal California is earthquake-prone. People driving on a double-decker bridge when an earthquake hits get squashed when the upper deck falls onto the lower deck. Is the landowner liable for that?  Should they have put a sign on the bridge warning that the bridge could collapse in an earthquake?

 

 

On 6/15/2018 at 10:41 AM, JL_HSTRE said:

If you need your own rope or ladder so go somewhere you probably shouldn't go there. If your presence was permitted stairs or a ladder would be provided.

A location can allow people to go to it without providing easy access.  If a place can only be accessed by rope or ladder, then the only people accessing it will be people  that are equipped and have (hopefully) put thought and planning into their adventure.  If stairs or ladder were provided, then almost anyone would go there because they would think "it must be safe, since they are giving us an easy way to get there".

 

 

On 6/15/2018 at 10:41 AM, JL_HSTRE said:

Of course, Europeans are notorious for their exploration of abandoned places and areas that, in the US, would be strictly off limits.

If land owners were responsible for every possibility, like the "act of god" disclaimer in insurance policies", then NO landowner would allow any type of recreation on ANY of their lands. Why would they, if they could be sued for every single unfortunate incident that happens there?

[+nutlady]

On 6/11/2018 at 9:13 AM, Team Microdot said:

 

I fail to see any real similarity between a farmer growing a cucumber and sending people into a storm drain in terms of associated risk levels.

 

I think cucumbers are generally fairly safe - although I believe some cats are afraid of them.

Actually...as a farmer, and I used to be a walnut processor...I WAS sued because a shell got through ( and there is an allowance, stuff happens) and someone chipped a tooth. Folks, be careful if you actually eat food!  ( oh you just know I had to reply to this....)

[+on4bam]

3 hours ago, nutlady said:

Actually...as a farmer, and I used to be a walnut processor...I WAS sued because a shell got through

I wonder where you're located.... oh well, never mind .