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Rathergohiking

Bring back webcams? “Webcam Reward?”

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I think last year’s virtual reward program was very successful. Why not do a similar thing with webcams this year?  Reward webcams to a limited amount of hiders (use same basic selection process as virtual rewards) so that the quality of the new webcam caches are good. Lots of issues regarding webcams, but leave it up to each CO to police them as they see fit. 

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1 hour ago, Rathergohiking said:

Lots of issues regarding webcams, but leave it up to each CO to police them as they see fit

 

You just answered "why not" with this statement.  :D

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There were so many complaints about who got the virtual rewards ("Player X got a virtual, but I didn't! They're not nearly as good a Geocacher as I am! Wah!"), I doubt Groundspeak will do another such program in the near future.

Edited by TriciaG
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I'd still love to see more webcam caches again, even if it's just wishful thinking. The one closest to me is quite fun and quite the little scavenger hunt to get to it.

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If someone gave me a webcam reward, I wouldn't know what to do with it.  I don't have access to any webcams and I don't know how to find them.  Even if I did find one I probably would have to get permission from its owner for a global geocaching community to use it for my game, unless I set one up myself, which I have no plans to do.  I'd trade that reward in for a virtual reward, however.  :D

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20 minutes ago, GeoElmo6000 said:

If someone gave me a webcam reward, I wouldn't know what to do with it.  I don't have access to any webcams and I don't know how to find them.  Even if I did find one I probably would have to get permission from its owner for a global geocaching community to use it for my game, unless I set one up myself, which I have no plans to do.  I'd trade that reward in for a virtual reward, however.  :D

 

Ah.  Very happy with our Webcam cache.  Learnt about it from the Hiking the AT website.  When my sister and I hiked the Presi Transverse, we had to go for the webcam.  We received permission from the Mount Washington Observatory to list the Webcam Cache.  They were so happy to have the webcam listed on Groundspeak that they painted a white X to show you where to stand!  Maintenance is tough, since so may cachers think a selfie should be good enough.  Nope!  A webcam photo is required.  

But that was a once in a lifetime situation for us.  If offered another opportunity, I doubt that I would be able to come up with one. 

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Webcams are not for just any CO. Perhaps Groundspeak could let COs get on a list and then reward webcams from that list based on a selection criteria similar to what was used for virtual rewards. 

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1 minute ago, Rathergohiking said:

Webcams are not for just any CO. Perhaps Groundspeak could let COs get on a list and then reward webcams from that list based on a selection criteria similar to what was used for virtual rewards. 

 

I like this idea. There would still likely be hurt feelings, but I doubt they could do anything about that aside from just opening up Webcam caches again to the public. I'd prefer they not do the latter for various reasons.

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No matter what you do there will be “hurt feelings” from someone who does not get selected. That should not stop you from doing something that would  really enhance the game. Cannot please everyone. There were some “hurt feelings” over the virtual rewards selection process, but  it was done anyway and really enhanced the game. Just my opinion anyway. 

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Webcams are the most abused type around. So many people claim a "find" when the webcam isn't working.

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As for abuse, how much abuse happens daily with people claiming finds on physical caches they didn't sign?  I wasn't cite 'abuse' as a reason not to do it. That's a choice they make for themselves.  There are ample rules in place to combat 'cheating' where possible - typically moreso when it does affect other people and can be tracked; and COs have the right/responsibility to police their own listings.   Beyond that, someone doing the above generally doesn't hurt anyone else.

 

A CO should manage fake logs on their webcam caches. If they don't, and it's obvious and reported as such, they could have their ownership and listing privilege revoked. So, that some might fake-log webcams isn't a reason, imo, not to bring them back in some limited temporary capacity.

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I don't think its a good idea to bring back webcam there are so many issues with them.

 

On ‎09‎/‎06‎/‎2018 at 12:11 AM, Rathergohiking said:

I think last year’s virtual reward program was very successful. {...}

 

Hum I am not sure how you get that impression but virtual reward program was so flawed. First they make a HUGE mistake by saying they choose the first 1% when they used an algorithm that give strange results with people with few hides (around 5) got a virtual and ignore people that contributed a lot more to the community.

 

Also I don't have the latest number but from the 4000 they gived less than half have been published because the algorithm give some to inactive player...

 

Lastly some smaller country got completely ignored because they don't had enough hides to get one even if this game is supposed to be international.

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Are webcams even a thing these days? How many people/businesses/towns are even using webcams? And my thought is that there is a huge issue with someone using the webcam over a business/college/town that isn't their own and that they have no control over because there isn't anything they can do if the webcam has technical difficulties or the owner decides not to do it anymore. If they were to do this I think it should be a requirement that the CO setup their own webcam somehow. But finding a location for that would be difficult, as people may not want it at their home and I'm not sure many people would allow someone to put a webcam in their business or anything like that. Webcams are much more involved than virtual caches are. And as mentioned above there is still the ongoing issue of people abusing the system and logging finds when they shouldn't. Webcams are fun, but I don't think they should be brought back.

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1 hour ago, igator210 said:

Webcams are the most abused type around. So many people claim a "find" when the webcam isn't working.

 

That gets to the heart of why I believe the type was abandoned - a complete lack of reliability.  Not only are webcams often down or malfunctioning, when they are, folks will often do whatever they can to get the smilie...such as taking a cellphone selfie.  No...it was a cool idea, but the realities make it a completely terrible thing to resurrect.

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1 hour ago, Lynx Humble said:

Also I don't have the latest number but from the 4000 they gived less than half have been published because the algorithm give some to inactive player...

There is still time for recipients of the Virtual Rewards to submit their listings. Some may still be looking for the "perfect spot" for their one and only virtual cache.

 

And the algorithm did filter out inactive players.

 

And some people may not be interested in owning a virtual cache, even if they're great owners of their physical caches, and even if the algorithm chose them.

 

And some people may not have wanted to expose themselves to the abuse of those who are upset that they didn't get a Virtual Reward. If you don't publish the Virtual Reward, then no one knows. If you do, then you expose yourself to those who would make you another example of all that is wrong with the algorithm.

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28 minutes ago, niraD said:

There is still time for recipients of the Virtual Rewards to submit their listings. Some may still be looking for the "perfect spot" for their one and only virtual cache.

I was surprised when no new virtuals immediately popped up in the San Francisco Bay area since there seem to be a lot of worthy COs. But just over the last couple months, they've started to appear, so I guess worthy COs think long and hard before planting a virtual.

 

On webcams, I enjoy them and wish they could happen, and I think GS could make the work if they needed to. But the fact is they don't really have anything to do with geocaching, so I have to admit that GS has a good case for leaving them out before even worrying about the logistics.

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A few other good arguments presented for not bringing back webcams :)

 

Though... webcam "not being geocaching" is much like AR "not being geocaching" or virtuals "not being geocaching".   AR is just another form of puzzle that leads you via technology to the location of the cache, so AR itself wouldn't be "geocaching". Virtuals have no container, they're just question-answering at a location, so wouldn't "be geocaching". OTOH, if those are qualified as geocaching, then a webcam is covered. It takes you to a location, and you effectively use technology to 'answer a question' at gz, even though there's nothing physical to sign.  (and yeah I've seen those arguments about what "geocaching" really is before)

Strictly speaking, geocaching is what geocaching.com makes it. And because it's changed so much over the years, many people have different opinions of what qualifies 'as geocaching", and typically are all variations of types of experiences have been provided by geocaching.com.

 

All that said, I wouldn't be against webcams coming back in a limited capacity, but that says nothing of how popular or effective a campaign it would be to bring them back. Webcams are everywhere these days, and the points about making use of someone else's property on a listing raises concerns of maintenance, permission, functionality, reliability, logging abuse, etc...

 

I think they'd be neat to have around again, but these days most likely would be a very big logistical nightmare, let alone having a selection process for people who could publish them that isn't derided by a large swath of the community.

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4 hours ago, thebruce0 said:

Though... webcam "not being geocaching" is much like AR "not being geocaching" or virtuals "not being geocaching".

Meh. I think webcams are not geocaching in a significantly more extreme way that AR and virtuals. AR takes you to a cache, which is nothing but geocaching. Virtuals take you to a spot, which is at least a little like geocaching. Webcams tell you do get a picture taken, which doesn't even have to be as much like geocaching as a virtual.

 

Anyway, I don't really mean to make a rock solid case. I was just saying that as long as GS thinks they're nothing like geocaching, I can't argue with them.

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You can find examples of abuse for any type of geocache.  What about the more prevalent problem of players not signing logs?  Should we eliminate those caches because of that?  

 

I personally do not have a problem if someone posts a selfie as a log for a webcam if that proves they were there. Afterall, the whole central purpose of the game is to find something using a GPS device. Sometimes we get all caught up in being anal such that it ruins the game for everyone else. I see no harm whatsoever in bringing more webcams into play much like the virtual reward. It would help keep the game fresh and interesting, much like  the virtual reward did, in my opinion.

 

Nobody is boycotting the virtual rewards!  Personally, I would rather go after a webcam or virtual than go for a mundane LPC or similar micro that is endlessly repeated. 

 

I think almost all of those now opposed to webcam rewards would be among the  first to find them!  

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3 hours ago, Rathergohiking said:

I personally do not have a problem if someone posts a selfie as a log for a webcam if that proves they were there. Afterall, the whole central purpose of the game is to find something using a GPS device. Sometimes we get all caught up in being anal such that it ruins the game for everyone else.

 

Anal?  Really ?

The only requirement for a webcam cache is it's to be logged with an image taken directly from the webcam.   Pretty simple.  Geocaching 101 stuff.

 - Yet many can't be bothered to do that simple task.      Disregarding basic rules (to me) ruins the game for everyone else.

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I DNF'd this one last month. Some cachers were getting webcam shots but there were quite a few doing selfies.

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8 hours ago, Rathergohiking said:

You can find examples of abuse for any type of geocache.  What about the more prevalent problem of players not signing logs?  Should we eliminate those caches because of that?  

 

I personally do not have a problem if someone posts a selfie as a log for a webcam if that proves they were there. Afterall, the whole central purpose of the game is to find something using a GPS device.

 

No, that would be a Virtual. The point of a Webcam cache is to take your photo with the webcam. It's such an explicit part that it's in the name of the cache type!

 

That's also the equivalent of having an Earthcache that says submit answers to these questions, but I will accept a photo instead.

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Webcams have changed radically since geocaching started. They used to require teamwork. Now we've all got smartphones and can nearly always get the image right on the spot.

 

The last webcam cache I did was so popular with muggles they had a QR code nearby to scan that would take your phone to the camera feed, save your image, and email it to you.

 

I'm pretty sure their modern popularity is 99% their rarity. 

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2 hours ago, JL_HSTRE said:

They used to require teamwork.

Not necessarily. I did two webcam caches before I had a smartphone. I didn't use teamwork to log either of them.

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Since the release of Virtual Rewards, it's been pretty slow around here with the "Bring back [insert discontinued cache type here]" threads.  Thanks for the stroll down memory lane.  Personally, I think it's better to evolve the game, rather than constantly looking back like this.

 

So any bets on when we'll see the threads urging the return of Code Word caches, ALR's and Locationless?

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1 hour ago, Touchstone said:

So any bets on when we'll see the threads urging the return of Code Word caches, ALR's and Locationless?

We get threads about code word caches fairly often. They don't realize they're asking for codeword caches though. They think they're asking for passwords to verify that someone actually found a cache, or QR codes to verify that someone actually found a cache, or QR codes to replace the physical logbook, or something like that. But they're really asking for code word caches.

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On 6/11/2018 at 7:01 AM, igator210 said:

Webcams are the most abused type around. So many people claim a "find" when the webcam isn't working.

I own a webcam listing.  For the most part, the webcam I use has been quite reliable, only going down for a few weeks when one of the IT guys retired and forgot to give anyone the passwords...

 

The main issue I have with "abuse" (if you want to call it that) is people trying to claim a find at night (low res cam + no lighting = unusable picture), or not performing a required action to set themselves apart as a geocacher.  The action of deleting a log is simple enough, but many of the geocachers that log the webcam cache go out of their way on a roadtrip, or travel many miles specifically for the cache.  This means that a good portion of log deletions come with pushback and nasty emails.  Several times, Groundspeak arbitrators have had to get involved.  Sometimes they side with me, sometimes with the cacher.  It's gotten to where I literally dread receiving a notification that it has received a new log.  I've threatened to archive it several times, but every time the local geocacher group persuades me to keep it going because it is such a rare icon.

 

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8 hours ago, Pork King said:

The main issue I have with "abuse" (if you want to call it that) is people trying to claim a find at night (low res cam + no lighting = unusable picture), or not performing a required action to set themselves apart as a geocacher.  The action of deleting a log is simple enough, but many of the geocachers that log the webcam cache go out of their way on a roadtrip, or travel many miles specifically for the cache.  This means that a good portion of log deletions come with pushback and nasty emails. 

Huh? If I go "out of my way" to log a certain cache, I'm going to inform me before the visit about any special requirements. And it should be common sense, that getting a meaningful picture from a webcam at night is impossible for almost all webcams. But yes, I know the mindset of statistics-driven geocachers, and I'm not surprised at all by what you say :rolleyes:.

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Webcam is known to break down and this alone causes problem. People traveled 100's or 1000's of miles to find those webcams and they will log it wrong because it wasnt working. That alone is the reason I dont want it to come back. We got enough problems without adding more to it.

 

Remember that cam in Hawaii? The CO deleted tons of logs that go back a few years? Yeaaaa that! Thats why I am not for having more webcams. Too many CO are on a high horse about "rules".

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5 minutes ago, Team Christiansen said:

Is this to suggest that if you enforce a rule that you are on a "high horse" and therefore enforcement is bad?

Some CO like to be part of the enforcement and that part is really bad. Really bad.  Some CO dont have enough to do and like go be in change and delete logs over very tiny details. We got rules, but doesn't mean you need to enforce them like a police state. Thats my point. Deleting logs when someone when way over the line is one thing, but deleting a log on the gray line is too much. You need to balance yourself as a CO. Plus, Groundspeak can go against you or side with your action. Sometime they aren't very clear of the action they take. This is why I don't delete logs. Rarely I do, I only did one in the last four years or so. 

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33 minutes ago, SwineFlew said:

Some CO like to be part of the enforcement and that part is really bad. Really bad.  Some CO dont have enough to do and like go be in change and delete logs over very tiny details. We got rules, but doesn't mean you need to enforce them like a police state. Thats my point. Deleting logs when someone when way over the line is one thing, but deleting a log on the gray line is too much.

 

To stay on topic,  for this cache type, there is no "gray line".  

 - You used the webcam for your log, or you didn't.  Hardly a "tiny detail"...

If "enforcement" is simply  a CO performing cache maintenance, they're (IMO) a good CO.   :)

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3 hours ago, SwineFlew said:

Webcam is known to break down and this alone causes problem. People traveled 100's or 1000's of miles to find those webcams and they will log it wrong because it wasnt working. That alone is the reason I dont want it to come back. We got enough problems without adding more to it.

I think this captures GS's thinking, but I think it's unfortunate that GS thinks that way. My attitude is that there's nothing wrong with someone being disappointed, so I could really care less how far they traveled before they were disappointed. The problem is that some people feel entitled by the effort they put into it to claim success even when they fail.

 

(I think webcam failure leading to disappointment is just the tip of the problem with webcams, so I don't mean to argue for their resurrection.)

 

3 hours ago, SwineFlew said:

Remember that cam in Hawaii? The CO deleted tons of logs that go back a few years? Yeaaaa that! Thats why I am not for having more webcams. Too many CO are on a high horse about "rules".

Your attitude here -- not your example -- is the main reason they won't come back. People don't respect COs enforcing their rules, and GS got sick of dealing with the fallout.

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13 hours ago, dprovan said:

My attitude is that there's nothing wrong with someone being disappointed, so I could really care less how far they traveled before they were disappointed.

Last weekend I got to within 20 feet of a cache that was the only physical cache in Kenya that I was able to get close to while in the country for 10 days.  As I was going for the cache an armed guard stopped me and said that I could not proceed further without an escort.  The cache was next to a cement bridge over a river with hippo and crocs.  Before I could get an escort the driver of the safari vehicle I was in called everyone to get back in so I ended up DNFing a cache 7377 miles from home, that if I were able to take another 15 steps I most likely would have found.  

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On 6/11/2018 at 7:24 PM, dprovan said:

Meh. I think webcams are not geocaching in a significantly more extreme way that AR and virtuals. AR takes you to a cache, which is nothing but geocaching. Virtuals take you to a spot, which is at least a little like geocaching. Webcams tell you do get a picture taken, which doesn't even have to be as much like geocaching as a virtual.

 

Anyway, I don't really mean to make a rock solid case. I was just saying that as long as GS thinks they're nothing like geocaching, I can't argue with them.

 

Except webcams require you to get your picture taken at a specific location, so it's still "kind of" geocaching.. based on your logic.

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A couple of weeks ago, as I think I mentioned a day or two ago, I DNFd a webcam. I was 10000 miles from home and there is no way I felt entitled to claim a find with a selfie just because  of the distance. If I thought I should be entitled, like some people think, then should I have claimed a find on all my DNFs while in UK and Europe? I think not.

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My opinion, but even after reading this thread that I started, I still believe that some sort of a webcam reward similar to the virtual reward would be a welcome addition to Geocaching.  

 

In spite of some limited amount of naysaying, I think the virtual reward was a overwhelming success. I expect a webcam reward would be the same.

 

For those naysayers out that that oppose it, simply do not participate in finding the new ones. Doubt that will happen in reality; no known boycott of the virtual rewards anyway.

 

Instead of finding ways not to make something like this to not work, how about finding ways for it to work, even better than before?

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14 minutes ago, Rathergohiking said:

For those naysayers out that that oppose it, simply do not participate in finding the new ones.

Yeah, this is a common argument. But not everyone opposes [fill in the blank] because they don't think it will be fun. Sometimes people oppose [fill in the blank] because they think it is a bad idea and that it will have negative effects on geocaching as a whole. Abstaining from participating in [fill in the blank] doesn't negate those negative effects.

 

16 minutes ago, Rathergohiking said:

Instead of finding ways not to make something like this to not work, how about finding ways for it to work, even better than before?

Okay, so how do you think we could resolve some of the issues that have been brought up, so that Webcam Rewards could work "even better than before"?

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54 minutes ago, Rathergohiking said:

My opinion, but even after reading this thread that I started, I still believe that some sort of a webcam reward similar to the virtual reward would be a welcome addition to Geocaching.  

 

In spite of some limited amount of naysaying, I think the virtual reward was a overwhelming success. I expect a webcam reward would be the same.

 

For those naysayers out that that oppose it, simply do not participate in finding the new ones. Doubt that will happen in reality; no known boycott of the virtual rewards anyway.

 

Instead of finding ways not to make something like this to not work, how about finding ways for it to work, even better than before?

The problem is, the webcams got a bad habit of breaking down. People are going to take a selfie, the wrong way. How you are going to way around that problem? You can't.

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8 minutes ago, SwineFlew said:

The problem is, the webcams got a bad habit of breaking down. People are going to take a selfie, the wrong way. How you are going to way around that problem? You can't.

 

What about the real problem of cachers who can't accept the fact that a selfie doesn't qualify for the webcam find.  The problem is with the finder who thinks they deserve a find, not the CO.

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On 6/13/2018 at 4:37 PM, dprovan said:

I think this captures GS's thinking, but I think it's unfortunate that GS thinks that way. My attitude is that there's nothing wrong with someone being disappointed, so I could really care less how far they traveled before they were disappointed. The problem is that some people feel entitled by the effort they put into it to claim success even when they fail.

 

(I think webcam failure leading to disappointment is just the tip of the problem with webcams, so I don't mean to argue for their resurrection.)

 

Your attitude here -- not your example -- is the main reason they won't come back. People don't respect COs enforcing their rules, and GS got sick of dealing with the fallout.

Well, I got a story, there was two newbie in my area that logged my cache wrong. I could had deleted those logs but I didn't. I invited them to go caching with me and we had fun. Yes, I show them the correct way.  If I had deleted those logs, they would dropped out and stop geocaching! My point is this... think twice before you delete people logs. If its an experience cacher, go ahead and hope for the best. If its a newbie, invite them to caching with you. I feel too many CO are armchair CO and too lazy to do anything but clicked on the delete button. Yes the guideline said you can but it doesn't mean you should. I feel that GS wants us to follow one of the example I did with those two newbies. Yes, they are still caching today and a PM as well.  Our goal as geocachers is to grow the hobby, not kick people around! If people bend the rules, let them to a point. We aren't in North Korea!

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1 minute ago, K13 said:

 

What about the real problem of cachers who can't accept the fact that a selfie doesn't qualify for the webcam find.  The problem is with the finder who thinks they deserve a find, not the CO.

The real problem is, people spend a lot of money to find those grandfathered webcams. It's the CO fault for not keeping it maintenance. If the webcam is down, fix it or archive the webcam. But some CO don't and not paying attention and go back and deleted 100's of log just to a jerk. I feel webcam or virtual cache CO cant deleted any logs that's over 30 day old. Cant keep it with the maintenance, you aren't fit to be a CO.  I dont have a problem with a CO deleting wrong log as long its within reasonable time. A three year old log is really stupid to be deleting. The guideline said you can deleted them, but doesn't mean you should. I always question myself first before I deleted anyone logs.

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Think outside the box and be open to change. Why not let selfies be part of a webcam smiley?  

 

What is the harm in that? A GPS enabled device would have been used to find something. Is that not the essence of Geocaching?  The CO should have the ability to regulate the smiley logs on his cache as he sees fit. If he decides that smileys with a selfie are not allowed, say so on the cache page and enforce it and vice-versa.

 

Do do not lose perspective in that Geocaching is a just a game. You get out of it what you put in it. Keep it fun,  not some legalistic focused thing that drives people away. 

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24 minutes ago, Rathergohiking said:

Why not let selfies be part of a webcam smiley?  

 

That's a virtual, not a webcam cache. And they have already been brought back with the Virtual Reward program.

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If you allow a selfie at a webcam cache, what does it have to do with a webcam? At all? Heck it's NAMED webcam. It's all about the webcam.

Otherwise you're just taking a selfie at a posted coordinate. As eigengott said, that is effectively a Virtual. And some new virtuals do require that.

A webcam cache needs to be a cache where the required image is from the webcam.

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Do do not lose perspective in that Geocaching is a just a game. You get out of it what you put in it. Keep it fun,  not some legalistic focused thing that drives people away. 

Games have rules. I might think it's fun to grab the soccer ball and run it in for a touchdown (err, goal), but it's against the rules.

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2 hours ago, Rathergohiking said:

Why not let selfies be part of a webcam smiley?  

Why not allow throwdowns to be part of a traditional smiley?

 

 

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20 minutes ago, TriciaG said:

Games have rules. I might think it's fun to grab the soccer ball and run it in for a touchdown (err, goal), but it's against the rules.

 

Not necessarily:

 

Put the cipher key on the soccer ball and the cipher in the end zone (err, goal), the (first) cacher will be required to carry the soccer ball to the goal.  Make it a timed WIG and you can enforce/encourage the running part.

 

 

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33 minutes ago, badlands said:

Put the cipher key on the soccer ball and the cipher in the end zone (err, goal), the (first) cacher will be required to carry the soccer ball to the goal.  Make it a timed WIG and you can enforce/encourage the running part.

*hackhackhack*

Actually the cache can't be required to carry the ball. That's beyond the scope and capability of the cartridge. Creative people who don't want to run (and don't want to / can't hack) will find an alternative way :)

 

33 minutes ago, badlands said:
55 minutes ago, niraD said:

Why not allow throwdowns to be part of a traditional smiley?

 

Common practice says they already are.

 

Common practice is not official ruling.

Webcams will never be "allowed" to accept selfies.

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