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1 minute ago, on4bam said:

Same difference.

Would a challenge pass if it required obtaining all souvenirs for this "promotion"? :ph34r:

 

 

"All souvenirs"? There are challenges with a requirement of having X amount of souvenirs, and they always pass. 

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4 minutes ago, EggsTheBest said:

"All souvenirs"? There are challenges with a requirement of having X amount of souvenirs, and they always pass. 

Exactly, and yet setting the challenge to require you to find 100 caches in 4 weeks is against guidelines, rephrase it to get all souvenirs of this promotion and it would pass even though  it even restricts the requirements more (to just these 4 weeks).

 

 

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I doubt that a challenge requiring the possession of a certain souvenir would pass muster, just like the challenge of finding certain caches is not allowed. A challenge which required the final souvenir for the recent Planetary Pursuit promotion would not be allowed because that souvenir is no longer available.

 

Possessing a certain number of souvenirs is fine for a challenge, just like finding a certain number of caches is fine for a challenge.

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2 minutes ago, on4bam said:

Exactly, and yet setting the challenge to require you to find 100 caches in 4 weeks is against guidelines, rephrase it to get all souvenirs of this promotion and it would pass even though  it even restricts the requirements more (to just these 4 weeks).

Would it though? We know it is possible to require a certain number of Souvenirs, but is it possible to require specific Souvenirs?

 

Besides, right at the top of the list of things that are prohibited is "Requiring caches to be found in earlier years, as it is not attainable by someone new to the game." This means that the Hidden Creatures challenge cannot continue past the Hidden Creatures promotion. And given that "Challenge cache owners must show that they have met the challenge", the Hidden Creatures challenge cannot begin until Hidden Creatures promotion begins, and the challenge cache CO has an opportunity to earn the Souvenirs. And given that "Temporary caches intended to stay active for fewer than three months will not be published", and that the Hidden Creatures promotion doesn't last 3 months, I don't see a Hidden Creatures challenge being accepted.

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2 minutes ago, on4bam said:

Exactly, and yet setting the challenge to require you to find 100 caches in 4 weeks is against guidelines, rephrase it to get all souvenirs of this promotion and it would pass even though  it even restricts the requirements more (to just these 4 weeks).

 

 

Oh come on... 

Of all 644 existing souvenirs at least 193 are available anytime, and there's tons of souvenirs that are event or specific day related. 

Also, during this promotion you would need to put minimal effort to get 5-6 souvenirs so I really don't see a problem there. 

 

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22 hours ago, daywalk said:

My guess is that the private website company Groundspeak Inc, being a profit-driven business, wants to increase the website's attractiveness to advertisers.  The more page views, the higher the the price the company can charge for advertising.  Has there been a drop in website usage which they are trying to ameliorate  with two promotions in a row this year? We know that the Groundspeak company has increased the amount of advertising on cache pages in the last year, which indicates that they are trying to increase revenue.

Another point is that the Groundspeak company management are not concerned about the opinions of committed geocachers. They know that we are going to keep on geocaching because we love exploring different places and we love placing caches which give our caching colleagues enjoyable experiences. We're going to keep on being paying customers* for the Groundspeak website since in most parts of the world it's got a monopoly for geocache listings. The real target for these promotions is the beginner cacher, who's not yet  "addicted" and is quite likely to drift away from the activity after finding a few dozen caches. But if that new cacher is presented with a reason to invest more time and effort into finding caches, and if they see a reward for their efforts, well, they are very much more likely to  keep on caching and (most important) become another paying customer for the website.

So, are you against Groundspeak acquiring more paying customers?  The company has to have enough revenue to be sustainable and pay their employees an adequate wage.  The fact that HQ is in Seattle, which has a high cost-of-living and faces some business unfriendly city officials lately, also plays a role in the need for them to acquire new customers.  I don't understand why you seem to think that's a problem. If GS was just a money-hungry company, then couldn't they just increase the cost of Premium Membership?  The cost of PM has never increased!

 

 

22 hours ago, daywalk said:

As an aside, it's very much easier for new cachers to find a time-limited challenge such as 100 caches in 4 weeks because they haven't yet found many caches in their neighbourhood.  And, as usual, this promotion is designed for the Northern Hemisphere summer to satisfy that key USA market - it's midwinter in the Southern Hemisphere.

There are plenty of countries, besides the USA, that are in the Northern Hemisphere.  Canada and Europe, for example.  I don't know actual counts, but I would wager that the vast majority of user accounts are in the Northern Hemisphere.  Seems normal to me that a company would try to accommodate the majority of its users, instead of the minority.  And of course, if the promotion was at the opposite time of year, then the Northern Hemisphere members would be complaining.  Is there any way for the company to win?

 

 

22 hours ago, daywalk said:

* I use the term "Paying customer" instead of the Groundspeak company's inaccurate term "Premium member" because we are customers buying a product, not members. The difference is crucial. Members of a non-profit club have voting rights and control how their club is run.

What does this even mean?  Members of a non-profit club may have voting rights, but members of a for-profit club do not have voting rights beyond voting with their dollars.  Do you have voting rights at your gym where you pay membership fees to use the gym's equipment and services?  Not sure what 'crucial' difference you're trying to infer here.

 

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I'm reading comments about how a cacher needs to get 100 finds to get all the souvenirs, as if every cacher has to get ALL of the souvenirs.  Cachers will still get souvenirs, even if they don't find 100.  A cacher that finds just 15 caches in a month will get more than half of the souvenirs.  If 'serious' cachers want a tougher challenge, then they can challenge themselves and/or participate in challenge caches.  Really, how can GS win?   Cachers complain if they put out a promotion that's too difficult or has a confusing point system, but then cachers also complain if they put out a promotion that's too easy or has a simple point system.  Seems like the only way to avoid complaints is to put out no promotions at all.  Oh, but then there would be cachers complaining that there isn't a promotion like there 'used to be'. Ugh!

 

 

On 5/30/2018 at 11:23 AM, usyoopers said:
On 5/29/2018 at 6:03 PM, barefootjeff said:

There could've been some fun possibilities to weave "habitats" in with cache attributes, like tree-climbing (birds or monkeys), wading (amphibians), swimming (fish), abandoned structure (vampires?), livestock (moo-cows), stealth required (timid creatures), night cache (nocturnal creatures), etc. But no, it's just a numbers game.

I must say I like your ideas a lot more, sounds like lots more fun!! I'm afraid we won't be going out of our way for those souvenirs

If souvenirs are based on attributes, then plenty of CO's will edit their cache pages to make it easier for other cachers to qualify for the souvenirs. Plus, it could happen that a cacher finds a cache with a specific attribute to get the souvenir, but then the CO edits the page and removes the attribute before the cacher submits their online Found It log. Imagine the complaints and appeals that would happen with that.

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54 minutes ago, noncentric said:
On 31/05/2018 at 4:23 AM, usyoopers said:
On 30/05/2018 at 11:03 AM, barefootjeff said:

There could've been some fun possibilities to weave "habitats" in with cache attributes, like tree-climbing (birds or monkeys), wading (amphibians), swimming (fish), abandoned structure (vampires?), livestock (moo-cows), stealth required (timid creatures), night cache (nocturnal creatures), etc. But no, it's just a numbers game.

I must say I like your ideas a lot more, sounds like lots more fun!! I'm afraid we won't be going out of our way for those souvenirs

If souvenirs are based on attributes, then plenty of CO's will edit their cache pages to make it easier for other cachers to qualify for the souvenirs. Plus, it could happen that a cacher finds a cache with a specific attribute to get the souvenir, but then the CO edits the page and removes the attribute before the cacher submits their online Found It log. Imagine the complaints and appeals that would happen with that.

 

Sorry, I was just trying to think of ways that Hidden Creatures and their habitats could be worked into caches - as it is, the cache hunt has nothing whatsoever to do with creatures or habitats, it's just a pure numbers chase. A few years back in the Roadtrip promotion, one of the weeks required a D5 or T5 cache, but I don't recall seeing an explosion of caches having their D/T rating changed to make it easy to game it. Was there an outcry of protest about that one?

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  On 6/14/2018 at 2:57 AM, daywalk said:

As an aside, it's very much easier for new cachers to find a time-limited challenge such as 100 caches in 4 weeks because they haven't yet found many caches in their neighbourhood.  And, as usual, this promotion is designed for the Northern Hemisphere summer to satisfy that key USA market - it's midwinter in the Southern Hemisphere.

There are plenty of countries, besides the USA, that are in the Northern Hemisphere.  Canada and Europe, for example.  I don't know actual counts, but I would wager that the vast majority of user accounts are in the Northern Hemisphere.  Seems normal to me that a company would try to accommodate the majority of its users, instead of the minority.  And of course, if the promotion was at the opposite time of year, then the Northern Hemisphere members would be complaining.

Couldn't agree more. 

According to this infographic around 90% of caches are in Northern Hemisphere.

 

Also, what challenges to Southern Hemisphere geocachers face in their "winter" time? Because I can tell you how caching is in winter here, with -30C temperatures and tons of snow. During Planetary Pursuit promotion I was geocaching in snow which at a few places was all the way up to my hips. And I am not exaggerating. :) So I'm very glad to have a promotion during the season when caches are physically retrievable, without being frozen in ice and all that jazz.

Edited by EggsTheBest
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8 hours ago, noncentric said:

So, are you against Groundspeak acquiring more paying customers?  The company has to have enough revenue to be sustainable and pay their employees an adequate wage.  The fact that HQ is in Seattle, which has a high cost-of-living and faces some business unfriendly city officials lately, also plays a role in the need for them to acquire new customers.  I don't understand why you seem to think that's a problem. If GS was just a money-hungry company, then couldn't they just increase the cost of Premium Membership?  The cost of PM has never increased!

 

Yep.  Additionally, the basic functions of this hobby has still been able to remain free.    :)

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On 6/14/2018 at 10:41 AM, on4bam said:

Same difference.

Would a challenge pass if it required obtaining all souvenirs for this "promotion"? :ph34r:

 

Probably not.

 

Oh, no, Groundspeak has different rules for one aspect of this game than another.  We have officially divided by zero.  Pardon me while I dive into my bunker, for the sky must be falling.

 

CL_Acorn.0.jpg

 

What's this?  Turns out it was just an acorn.

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2 hours ago, cerberus1 said:
10 hours ago, noncentric said:

So, are you against Groundspeak acquiring more paying customers?  The company has to have enough revenue to be sustainable and pay their employees an adequate wage.  The fact that HQ is in Seattle, which has a high cost-of-living and faces some business unfriendly city officials lately, also plays a role in the need for them to acquire new customers.  I don't understand why you seem to think that's a problem. If GS was just a money-hungry company, then couldn't they just increase the cost of Premium Membership?  The cost of PM has never increased!

 

Yep.  Additionally, the basic functions of this hobby has still been able to remain free.    :)

 

Wait, was that yep in agreement to the comment's sentiment, or answering the questions within the comment? :wacko::P:laughing:

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10 hours ago, barefootjeff said:

Sorry, I was just trying to think of ways that Hidden Creatures and their habitats could be worked into caches - as it is, the cache hunt has nothing whatsoever to do with creatures or habitats, it's just a pure numbers chase. A few years back in the Roadtrip promotion, one of the weeks required a D5 or T5 cache, but I don't recall seeing an explosion of caches having their D/T rating changed to make it easy to game it. Was there an outcry of protest about that one?

Not sure how to work the creatures into caches, although thebruce0 came up with something interesting over on page 2. Having the souvenir appear on the app after logging the qualifying find, which was a just-released app feature, could provide that 'find the creature' experience to cachers, especially kids.  And of course, there are now Hidden Creatures products in the geocaching Shop that can be purchased.

 

I didn't mean to say that there would be an "explosion" of caches with false attributes, but even a few would likely end up being mentioned in the forums as a 'bad' side-effect of the promotion. With the Road Trip promo, I did find a couple comments where cachers implied that caches were getting inaccurate D/T ratings because of the souvenir.  See HERE and HERE.  But there were also mentions about how cachers would share puzzle solutions so their friends could get the puzzle souvenir and how cachers create events just to get the meet the crew souvenir.  But really, any promotion is going to result in forum posts about how the promotion is promoting something 'bad'. Just seems inevitable.

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2 hours ago, noncentric said:

I didn't mean to say that there would be an "explosion" of caches with false attributes, but even a few would likely end up being mentioned in the forums as a 'bad' side-effect of the promotion. With the Road Trip promo, I did find a couple comments where cachers implied that caches were getting inaccurate D/T ratings because of the souvenir.  See HERE and HERE.  But there were also mentions about how cachers would share puzzle solutions so their friends could get the puzzle souvenir and how cachers create events just to get the meet the crew souvenir.  But really, any promotion is going to result in forum posts about how the promotion is promoting something 'bad'. Just seems inevitable

 

Gosh, back in January I created an event for the Where in the World is Signal Australia Day promotion. I thought that's what we were supposed to do, but had I known creating events for event souvenirs like this was a bad thing, I'd have had second thoughts.

 

Edit to add: I wonder how many power trails have been created for the Hidden Creatures promotion...

 

Edited by barefootjeff

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51 minutes ago, barefootjeff said:

Gosh, back in January I created an event for the Where in the World is Signal Australia Day promotion. I thought that's what we were supposed to do, but had I known creating events for event souvenirs like this was a bad thing, I'd have had second thoughts.

Personally, I have no problem with events created for whatever reason. Any excuse for cachers to get together an socialize is fine by me. But there will be cachers that think it's just 'gaming the system' or 'chasing stats' to create events when there's a "reward" that comes along with it.

 

 

51 minutes ago, barefootjeff said:

Edit to add: I wonder how many power trails have been created for the Hidden Creatures promotion...

Probably none.  I've been toying with the idea of putting out a series of caches, since the snow is starting to melt in the area that I've been scoping out. Still not sure when I'll get around to it, but if I do it during the promotion then I'm sure someone will think that I did it just to help people get the souvenirs - even though it's something that's been in the planning stages since winter.

 

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4 minutes ago, noncentric said:
59 minutes ago, barefootjeff said:

Gosh, back in January I created an event for the Where in the World is Signal Australia Day promotion. I thought that's what we were supposed to do, but had I known creating events for event souvenirs like this was a bad thing, I'd have had second thoughts.

Personally, I have no problem with events created for whatever reason. Any excuse for cachers to get together an socialize is fine by me. But there will be cachers that think it's just 'gaming the system' or 'chasing stats' to create events when there's a "reward" that comes along with it.

 

I thought the whole point of having event-based souvenirs was to encourage people to host events. If hosting such events is "gaming the system", how is anyone supposed to get the souvenir? In the case of the Where in the World souvenir, the chance of someone locally just happening to have already planned an event for that weekend is pretty remote - in the last two years there've only been two events in this region and one of those was my Where in the World one - so if I hadn't "gamed the system", no-one in this region would have got the souvenir.

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Does somebody knows if LabCaches count to acquire the souvenirs? I would think they do (any cache or event), but in the past they sometimes didn't count for such challenges.

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20 hours ago, CaracalShan said:

Does somebody knows if LabCaches count to acquire the souvenirs? I would think they do (any cache or event), but in the past they sometimes didn't count for such challenges.

 

In a Blog post in 2013 (and who knows, something may have changed), in reference to how Lab caches affect milestones and statistics, it is stated that "Lab Caches will not award you a new souvenir".  In that context, it looks like the intent is to say that Lab Caches don't count toward Souvenirs.  But sometimes it's tough to translate statements from Groundspeak into English. :ph34r:

 

Edited by kunarion

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