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chamafox

Recreated cache: Bonus FTF?

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Here's an interesting scenario that just happened:

 

I and some other cachers after more than one attempt and a whole lot of tedious searching, finally managed to find a new cache, and we wrote a first-to-find (FTF) log on it. The problem was, the cache was a bit too far from its published coordinates. The owner promptly archived the cache and created it again, this time on proper coordinates. He did not change the log.

 

Should we claim FTF on the new cache as well, thus effectively getting two FTFs for the same cache? Our names are in the log. We found this cache before it was released. We have been there. We have physically found it.

 

What do you guys think?

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How many times did you find it?

Once? Then you could claim FTF for the first publishing.

Claiming an FTF for the second publishing without physically going out and re-signing the log would be nothing more than arm-chair logging.

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59 minutes ago, chamafox said:

Should we claim FTF on the new cache as well, thus effectively getting two FTFs for the same cache? Our names are in the log. We found this cache before it was released. We have been there. We have physically found it.

 

In some practises you will earn FTF only if you find the cache after it has been published. But there is no official rule and you can call it FTF if you like - as anybody else can do if they like.

Edited by arisoft
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2 separate caches if they have 2 separate GC #s. FTF on the first cache which was listed, you found and is now archived. No FTF on the 2nd cache unless you go out and find it and log it again as the first entry in the log for the new GC #. That's how I'd consider it. 

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8 minutes ago, arisoft said:

But there is no official rule and you can call it FTF if you like - as anybody else can do if they like.

^This

 

There aren't any official rules for FTF. If you want to count two FTFs in your personal stats, then go right ahead.

 

I'm curious why the cache was archived and then re-submitted rather than just updating the coordinates? I mean, sure, it works, but why not go the easier route? From your log, it sounds like it was only 35 metres, which is well under the limit that COs can move the coordinates on their own.

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I think it's a new cache, so you have to find it again. Although I'd put is as you get to find it again. You enjoyed finding it the first time. Won't you enjoy finding it just as much the second time? The similarity between the two caches is immaterial, so just pretend he put out a whole new container instead of just moving the old container, and pretend he used a nice fresh log instead of reusing the one from the archived cache.

 

Better hurry or someone else with get FTF.

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17 minutes ago, dprovan said:

I think it's a new cache, so you have to find it again

 

If you have visited the coordinates and signed the logbook you can log a find online - says guidelines.

 

One CO relisted an achived cache with the original container and allowed everybody to log it again. Easy find.

Edited by arisoft

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4 hours ago, arisoft said:

If you have visited the coordinates and signed the logbook you can log a find online - says guidelines.

He signed the logbook of a different cache, one that doesn't exist any more.

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6 hours ago, chamafox said:

Here's an interesting scenario that just happened:

 

I and some other cachers after more than one attempt and a whole lot of tedious searching, finally managed to find a new cache, and we wrote a first-to-find (FTF) log on it. The problem was, the cache was a bit too far from its published coordinates. The owner promptly archived the cache and created it again, this time on proper coordinates. He did not change the log.

 

Should we claim FTF on the new cache as well, thus effectively getting two FTFs for the same cache? Our names are in the log. We found this cache before it was released. We have been there. We have physically found it.

 

What do you guys think?

 

You could claim FTF on every cache you ever find if you'd like. 

 - We had a guy claim "shared FTF" on every cache he showed up to if he spotted us walking from it.  Same thing.  It means nada.

 

I sorta understand you're the ones to give that co the "heads up" on it being off, but if the cache now has a new GC#, it's a new cache, right? 

Does the new cache have a new placed date?  Don't you date your logs?  Even nanos we date logs. 

I try to stay clear of pmo caches, so didn't see why a CO would archive one just to move it 35 meters, or your log. 

I'd go to that "new" cache, sign the log with a new date, and (maybe in a nice way), say "I found this in the same place as the one now archived", and forget it.  :)

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3 hours ago, dprovan said:

He signed the logbook of a different cache, one that doesn't exist any more.

 

In this case the cache is exactly the same including the logbook. The CO can not delete the online log in this case because all requirements are fulfilled. It is up to you if you want the same experience twice.

 

In the perfect world all caches are marked with the correct GC-code and name but in the real world it is possible that there is just a blank sheet of paper and you have to guess what you have found.

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13 hours ago, Team DEMP said:

2 separate caches if they have 2 separate GC #s. FTF on the first cache which was listed, you found and is now archived. No FTF on the 2nd cache unless you go out and find it and log it again as the first entry in the log for the new GC #. That's how I'd consider it. 

I'd have to say this.

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4 hours ago, justintim1999 said:

I'd have to say this.

Yep, this. Anything less is cheating the system.

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21 hours ago, chamafox said:

Should we claim FTF on the new cache as well, thus effectively getting two FTFs for the same cache? Our names are in the log. We found this cache before it was released. We have been there. We have physically found it.

 

I get the impression that if you really thought it was OK to claim FTF on a new cache listing without physically visiting the container and signing the log, just because the CO didn't put a new log in it and you'd already signed the old log, then you wouldn't be here asking the question.

 

If that were the case, you could just as easily cut out the aggravation of dashing out of the house when you got that notification email.  Just stop by the CO's house before they hide the cache, pre-sign the log, and then claim FTF as soon as the cache published.  (I'm joking, of course; only a true dirtbag would do such a thing.)

 

If I was the first person to go out and find the geocache based on the new publication and saw your log dated X days before publication, I'd consider you a beta tester, and I'd claim FTF.  The fact that the CO archived the first listing and published a new one, rather than simply fixing the issue, would seem irrelevant.

Edited by hzoi
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8 minutes ago, hzoi said:

If I was the first person to go out and find the geocache based on the new publication and saw your log dated X days before publication, I'd consider you a beta tester, and I'd claim FTF.

 

Anyone can claim FTF on any cache they want and there's nothing that anyone else can do about it.  

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p.s. For what it's worth, it would appear that the two cachers who have claimed FTF on the new listing felt they needed to go back out and sign the log again, even though they were part of your FTF group on the old listing.

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3 minutes ago, NYPaddleCacher said:
12 minutes ago, hzoi said:

If I was the first person to go out and find the geocache based on the new publication and saw your log dated X days before publication, I'd consider you a beta tester, and I'd claim FTF.

 

Anyone can claim FTF on any cache they want and there's nothing that anyone else can do about it.  

 

Well, sure.  I did see a thread on project-gc about someone putting "FTF" in their logs and claiming it meant "Friend to Find," along with some tortured logic.  With FTF being a side game within geocaching that isn't formally tracked by Groundspeak, there is no one right answer.

 

In any case, someone may want to explain to this (relatively new) CO that updating coordinates remains an option as long as the change is less than 161m/528'.

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30 minutes ago, hzoi said:

p.s. For what it's worth, it would appear that the two cachers who have claimed FTF on the new listing felt they needed to go back out and sign the log again, even though they were part of your FTF group on the old listing.

 

And the two others who didn't go out after the new release claimed only FTF on the first, now archived listing. Yeah, we were pretty clear on what we wanted to do for ourselves. I was happy enough with the one FTF I got. But nevertheless, it was an interesting extra gray area in a game with unwritten rules, and I thought it'd be an interesting topic for discussion. What would you do? :)

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13 minutes ago, chamafox said:

What would you do?

 

I don't play the FTF game very often.  If I had, I would have done exactly what ended up happening here - either going back out and signing the log again, or  only claiming FTF on the first cache. 

(Even then, I'd only claim FTF if I was the first person to find it; I don't count group FTFs otherwise.)

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1 hour ago, chamafox said:

What would you do?

 

Our practice is to post FTF only if the cache is found after the publishing time. I would log it found again without the FTF tag.

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15 hours ago, arisoft said:

In this case the cache is exactly the same including the logbook.

Nope. The container is the same, but it's a new cache because it has a new ID.

15 hours ago, arisoft said:

The CO can not delete the online log in this case because all requirements are fulfilled.

No, they haven't met the requirement. The CO can simply point out that the date in the log is before the cache existed.

15 hours ago, arisoft said:

In the perfect world all caches are marked with the correct GC-code and name but in the real world it is possible that there is just a blank sheet of paper and you have to guess what you have found.

There is no confusion about which cache existed when the OP signed the log, so this comment is about a different topic.

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28 minutes ago, nutlady said:

I will never understand the allure of being FTF. What am I missing?

 

I don't understand the allure of "numbers", when there's no prizes to be had.   Funny hobby, isn't it?   :)

 

You were around early enough to remember FTF prizes in caches. 

Not sure about your area, but when we first started there where so few cachers, that most caches had cash or prizes in them pretty-much just to get someone out.   :)

 The other 2/3rd's first multi-tool (and a Leatherman at that) was a FTF prize on a 5T.  We even got a spare GPSr outta one. 

She was embarrassed at an event once, when someone realized (and just had to say out loud...) she could almost make a living on it.  :D

The FTF side-game and burn-out I believe, is one of  a couple reasons she doesn't enjoy the hobby anymore (beta tester for newbs the first).

 

These days though, I agree.  Stats seem to be the big thing now around here, and more than enough people to run out quick

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2 hours ago, nutlady said:

I will never understand the allure of being FTF. What am I missing?

It's just like any other sport. Do you understand the allure of tennis?

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3 hours ago, nutlady said:

I will never understand the allure of being FTF. What am I missing?

 

You are missing the rush of adrenaline.

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8 hours ago, nutlady said:

I will never understand the allure of being FTF. What am I missing?

 

For one, you are the only person who will find the cache exactly how the cache owner placed it. Everyone else will find it as the previous finder replaced it.

 

What's the excitement of anything - getting a hole a one in golf, running a marathon and having your fastest time even though you didn't win the race, etc. Whats the reason people might fill in a find for every calendar day or find a cache placed on every calendar day, fizzy, jasmer, etc. They are all just goals that keep the hobby exciting to individuals that want to pursue them.  

 

The same way you ask about why someone likes to be FTF, is similar to how you would answer a friend of yours who isn't interested in geocaching and they say "What am I missing?". How would you answer them? 

Edited by Team DEMP
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9 hours ago, nutlady said:

I will never understand the allure of being FTF. What am I missing?

 

I'm looking at your profile pic here in the forum and I'm thinking to myself: "I will never understand the allure of spending money to make my own geotag or geocoin.  What am I missing?"

 

To each their own.  I enjoy FTFs.  When they are easy to do and convenient to get to.  I especially enjoy them when they are puzzle caches, because it often (but not always) means I was the first person to find the solution to the puzzle.  I look at it sort of like being first in a line to an event, or being the first person called in a waiting room...it's just a nice bonus to be the first at anything.  If you don't understand that small, meaningless thrill, then I guess I'm just slightly sad for you.

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10 hours ago, arisoft said:
14 hours ago, nutlady said:

I will never understand the allure of being FTF. What am I missing?

 

You are missing the rush of adrenaline.

 

The first time I was FTF on a cache I wasn't really expecting it and didn't know that some people actually consider being first to find on a cache a race.  I thought it was kind of cool to be first to sign the log,  but didn't feel any sort of adrenaline rush.

 

The first time I explicitly tried to get FTF on a cache was on a multi stage puzzle with a final on an island about 35 miles from here.  I solved it while at work then grabbed my kayak as soon as I got home, drove to the put-in spot and paddled out to find the cache.  Being on the lake and finding my first cache by kayak was cool, but, I didn't really feel any adrenaline at all.  It was in the early evening and a nice peaceful half mile r/t paddle.  It wasn't found again in over a month.

 

The next, and last time I explicitly tried to get FTF was on a cache that I saw listed a couple of days before I left for a trip to Malaysia.  After flying from NYC to Tokyo (~13.5 hours), a four hour layover, then a 7 hour flight to Singapore, sleeping for 7 hours at the airport, then a 2 hour flight to Malaysia and got to my hotel more than a day and a half after I left.  After a few hour nap I took a cab to the nearby park and found that cache.   I was FTF on it, a cache that was 9400 miles from home.  Even then, while I was elated, I didn't feel an adrenaline rush.

 

 

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4 hours ago, NYPaddleCacher said:

Even then, while I was elated, I didn't feel an adrenaline rush.

 

You must try something more exiting like base jumping instead of FTF hunting. I can believe your story because the adrenaline rush is not guaranteed effect. I just returned from FTF-hunt which was 150 kilometers from my home. No adrenaline rush this time. ;)

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20 hours ago, NYPaddleCacher said:

Even then, while I was elated, I didn't feel an adrenaline rush.

 

 

 

 

I think the two are being counted as the same general feeling.  Cripes...sometimes the literalists can really bog down a discussion.

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3 hours ago, J Grouchy said:
On 5/17/2018 at 10:42 AM, NYPaddleCacher said:

Even then, while I was elated, I didn't feel an adrenaline rush.

I think the two are being counted as the same general feeling.  Cripes...sometimes the literalists can really bog down a discussion.

I know what you mean, but at the same time, I was inclined to argue against the "adrenaline rush" explanation myself. There are people that get excited about FTFs, but they're often the ones that give it a bad name. And, besides, what I've seen is that people get excited about it for a while, but eventually drop down to seeing it as something fun to do, but not something they rush out for every chance they get.

 

That's why I thought tennis was the better example: I like to beat the other guy, but I'm playing it for fun and enjoy it whether I win or not. Even when I used to dash out when a new cache was published somewhere close to my path to work, I was doing it as much because I might meet other seekers there rushing for the the same FTF as because I might have a chance to sign a pristine log. To be honest, some of my fondest FTF memories are the times I met someone else walking up to look for the cache, we searched together, and when we found it it was already signed!

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7 minutes ago, dprovan said:

I know what you mean, but at the same time, I was inclined to argue against the "adrenaline rush" explanation myself. There are people that get excited about FTFs, but they're often the ones that give it a bad name. And, besides, what I've seen is that people get excited about it for a while, but eventually drop down to seeing it as something fun to do, but not something they rush out for every chance they get.

 

That's why I thought tennis was the better example: I like to beat the other guy, but I'm playing it for fun and enjoy it whether I win or not. Even when I used to dash out when a new cache was published somewhere close to my path to work, I was doing it as much because I might meet other seekers there rushing for the the same FTF as because I might have a chance to sign a pristine log. To be honest, some of my fondest FTF memories are the times I met someone else walking up to look for the cache, we searched together, and when we found it it was already signed!


I have been geocaching for 11 years and I have yet to meet another geocacher when FTF was on the line, except for one of my own hides when I saw a couple of vehicles at the trailhead to my cache  (and recognized one of them) so stopped to say hello.   Of course, I've only had a dozen or so FTFs (I really have no idea how many) but you'd think it would have happened at least once.  

 

I used elated as a synonym for happy.  I'm kinda skeptical that simply trying (and succeeding) to get FTF on a cache would actually produce any adrenaline at all, and then when people use the term adrenaline rush, that typically it' just a synonym for getting excited about something. 

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44 minutes ago, NYPaddleCacher said:

when people use the term adrenaline rush, that typically it' just a synonym for getting excited about something. 

 

This is real adrenaline but it is not guaranteed for everybody and every time. I wouldn't call that feeling as exiting because it may be actually someting you may not enjoy at all. FTF hunt may be also exiting but for other reasons than adrenaline :)

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1 hour ago, NYPaddleCacher said:

I have been geocaching for 11 years and I have yet to meet another geocacher when FTF was on the line, except for one of my own hides when I saw a couple of vehicles at the trailhead to my cache  (and recognized one of them) so stopped to say hello.   Of course, I've only had a dozen or so FTFs (I really have no idea how many) but you'd think it would have happened at least once.  

I guess there are more geocachers in my area, and more of of a tradition to look for FTFs as soon as the cache comes out. When I regularly went out for FTFs, if it was a traditional cache hidden in a parking lot or only a shot walk from a trailhead, reliably 3 or 4 people would find it within the hour, so as often as not I'd run into someone coming or going.

1 hour ago, NYPaddleCacher said:

I used elated as a synonym for happy.  I'm kinda skeptical that simply trying (and succeeding) to get FTF on a cache would actually produce any adrenaline at all, and then when people use the term adrenaline rush, that typically it' just a synonym for getting excited about something. 

Yeah, I agree with that. It does seem to me for some people at some times it can be an actual rush, but more typically I think people just give it a try and are happy when they succeed. Our FTF competition has been kinda calm lately, but s few years ago there was a year or so when there were a handful of people that would drop everything and dash out as soon as the notification arrived on their phone, and I got the impression they felt an adrenaline surge each time.

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2 hours ago, NYPaddleCacher said:

I used elated as a synonym for happy.  I'm kinda skeptical that simply trying (and succeeding) to get FTF on a cache would actually produce any adrenaline at all, and then when people use the term adrenaline rush, that typically it' just a synonym for getting excited about something. 

  :laughing:

We were night-shifters when we started, so it was almost a given that we'd find many new caches first, simply due to time accessed (at sunup).

Locals noticed  these new people were beating a person who claimed himself the "FTF King",  and emailed asking us to please keep it up.  He was whining in local forums about "those newbs",  others were having a ball with it, and of course he made it worse for himself.  :D

 - That's when the other 2/3rds had some serious adrenaline going.

 

We became premium members only for notifications (and still today...).  She set a small pack with "stuff" (even a snack) so she could run out the door immediately after that notice. All D/T as well, so sometimes I'd havta go too. 

She'd be heading back to her car after finding it, sometimes in PJs , meeting another in the parking lot, also in PJs.  She was a monster.   :)

 - We stopped counting after 350.

Finally kinda burned herself out.  New phone users and coordinates way off.   Her last found newb  beta test was 400' off,  and just gave up.  Hasn't cached since.

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I have mostly checked out of the FTF competition -- I've called it the FTF game, but really, it's a competition.  At first, it appealed to my competitive nature.  Maybe overly competitive nature -- when I was really into going for FTF, I found myself getting disappointed, even angry, when I wasn't first.  That's really not what I want to experience when I go geocaching -- this is supposed to be fun, after all. 

 

So, I scaled back considerably, though I have reserved the right to check myself back into it.  It's nice to be first now and again.  I try for one a year these days.  Anything else is a bonus.

 

Of those we've gotten, I still think the coolest was this one on Iwo Jima, in an abandoned bunker on the military crest of Mount Suribachi.  But I've gotten a little thrill out of each of them, I'll admit.  Call it adrenaline or elation, there's still a neat feeling to find a blank log, above the normal enjoyment of finding a geocache.

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2 hours ago, hzoi said:

I have mostly checked out of the FTF competition -- I've called it the FTF game, but really, it's a competition.  At first, it appealed to my competitive nature.  Maybe overly competitive nature -- when I was really into going for FTF, I found myself getting disappointed, even angry, when I wasn't first.  That's really not what I want to experience when I go geocaching -- this is supposed to be fun, after all. 

Hating to lose is not the same as being competitive.

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On 5/16/2018 at 8:13 PM, nutlady said:

I will never understand the allure of being FTF. What am I missing?

 

Maybe nothing!  There are some "FTF hounds" locally that we know are going to go out and grab that FTF within an hour of publication.  We are not THAT enthusiastic, and we are happy to have new caches in the area to find to keep our cache-a-day in 2018 manageable.

 

And yet ... we see a new cache published at 8:30 at night, only 4 miles from us ... let's go!  And we are the first to sign the log, and a bit disappointed not to see other locals nearby; happy to claim it, though I don't use the brackets or anything to keep track anywhere.

 

Then there was the final of a puzzle series that was published within my radius of notifications.  The other three puzzles in the series were outside the radius, three towns away, and explained why I had not seen them yet.  They had been published over the previous 2-3 months, the first solved and found a few times, the second even fewer, and the third had only one solver and finder, who had not found others in the series.  NO ONE had yet solved and found the three previous, or the final.  I was determined to solve and find all of them, and if I could be the first, that would be icing on the cake.

 

The puzzles were challenging, but I did manage to solve the three leading up to the final.  But you had to find the three, each with a piece of the solution to the final, before you could solve the final.  I put the final on my watchlist, and on a holiday Monday with it still unfound, we set out to find the three I had solved, and then make the T3 (or was it 4?) hike to find the final.  What a wonderful feeling of success as we found the final container and were able to sign a blank logsheet as FTF!  We met the CO at an event shortly after that, and he was impressed we had done all the pieces and the final in one day!

 

So what's the allure?  Just the fun of doing it, and succeeding.  We see many caches published and don't "go for it".  Once in a great while, circumstances combine and we decide to go try to be FTF.  More often though, we leave it to others to play that game.

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There was a similar case discussed on a UK Geocaching FB page recently.  It seems that the CO had been trying to update their coords using the ‘Corrected Coordinates’ option (i.e. where you might enter the coords of a solved puzzle), instead of Admin Tools > Edit.  He gave up, archived the old cache and created a new listing: same name, description, etc., same cache container, same logbook, same location ... but a different GC code.  (I’m assuming the CO didn’t even need to go back to GZ.)

 

I think the FTF element in this post is distracting slightly from the more basic point: regardless of who’s first, would/could/should you log a find on the ‘new’ cache without revisiting?  After all, your name is on the (recycled) logbook.  Personally, I wouldn’t, but I have some sympathy for the finders of the archived cache.

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20 minutes ago, IceColdUK said:

There was a similar case discussed on a UK Geocaching FB page recently.  It seems that the CO had been trying to update their coords using the ‘Corrected Coordinates’ option (i.e. where you might enter the coords of a solved puzzle), instead of Admin Tools > Edit.  He gave up, archived the old cache and created a new listing: same name, description, etc., same cache container, same logbook, same location ... but a different GC code.  (I’m assuming the CO didn’t even need to go back to GZ.)

 

I think the FTF element in this post is distracting slightly from the more basic point: regardless of who’s first, would/could/should you log a find on the ‘new’ cache without revisiting?  After all, your name is on the (recycled) logbook.  Personally, I wouldn’t, but I have some sympathy for the finders of the archived cache.

 

There is one like that near me now.   There was some confusion with a failed adoption and the old listing was archived.   New CO published new listing, container and log are unchanged.   

 

 I didn't think about logging a second find without visiting as I've already found it.   It is a new listing.     I'll either find it again and log it found, or perhaps put it on my ignore list.

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