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Would COs accept nonsigned finds


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I'm at a bit of a crossroads. I have over 700 finds, but I am losing the use of one arm (severe nerve damage). I can mostly get around, even if unsteady a bit, and I like the idea of continuing to find caches. Hunting is the fun part. But at some point in the future, I won't be able to open certain types of containers when caching solo. I wouldn't even attempt caches involving tree climbing and the like, but if I have a cache in hand...

Question for COs: would you accept a log that indicates that a cacher was unable to open the cache due to disability? What if I had a picture of the cache container? I know that many people would say yes in polite conversation. But would you privately think it's breaking the rules?

All honest - and kind - answers welcome. Thanks.

Edited by GeoLTL
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23 minutes ago, GeoLTL said:

...But at some point in the future, I won't be able to open certain types of containers when caching solo.  I wouldn't even attempt caches involving tree climbing and the like, but if I have a cache in hand...

 - snip -

Question for COs: would you accept a log that indicates that a cacher was unable to open the cache due to disability? What if I had a picture of the cache container? I know that many people would say yes in polite conversation. But would you privately think it's breaking the rules?

All honest - and kind - answers welcome. Thanks.

Maybe it's just me, but I couldn't give two figs what someone thinks.  :D

I'm kinda curious what kind of containers you're talking about though.   We know many cachers with severe arthritus (I'm one), and other health issues.  Containers haven't really come up as a problem for anyone yet, it's usually the terrain getting to it.   

You already realize that higher terrain's probably out, so rare that caching solo will place a cache in hand.    ;)

Of our remaining caches, the lower terrain one is the one we seldom check.  I'd say if you didn't mention not opening it on the cache page, allowing another watching, or anal enough to copy names to email and bug us about it (it's happened...), that's fine.   Other than pmo hides, most lower terrain caches we've seen are similar. We spot logs that  show they were just "in the area", yet their logs remain. 

If it's really bugging you, mail a couple COs the day before heading out.  Cache safe.  :)

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4 hours ago, GeoLTL said:

Question for COs: would you accept a log that indicates that a cacher was unable to open the cache due to disability? What if I had a picture of the cache container? I know that many people would say yes in polite conversation. But would you privately think it's breaking the rules?

Most COs are more interested about did you find the cache than did somebody write your nickname into the log. But other finders may wonder why there is no name in the logbook. Posting image of the container within your log is considered spoiling, so it is not the recommended way. Sending image privately to the CO and explaining this situation in your find log is the best try. If your find is not accepted then you can always log a DNF.

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Like the others who've responded, I hide my caches in the hope people will get some enjoyment from them in whatever way suits them, so someone in your situaton who's unable to sign the log would have no problem from me.

As for posting photos of the cache, it depends. If it's just something ordinary, like an ammo can or a bison tube, then as long as the photo doesn't reveal the hiding place I don't think that would be a problem, particularly if the cache's description actually says what the container is. For one that's meant to be a surprise, though, perhaps not. Also, if it's a multi or puzzle, make sure your photo doesn't have any geolocation metadata in it.

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2 hours ago, barefootjeff said:

Like the others who've responded, I hide my caches in the hope people will get some enjoyment from them in whatever way suits them, so someone in your situaton who's unable to sign the log would have no problem from me.

As for posting photos of the cache, it depends. If it's just something ordinary, like an ammo can or a bison tube, then as long as the photo doesn't reveal the hiding place I don't think that would be a problem, particularly if the cache's description actually says what the container is. For one that's meant to be a surprise, though, perhaps not. Also, if it's a multi or puzzle, make sure your photo doesn't have any geolocation metadata in it.

Ditto to all this.  

You'll find that the VAST majority of COs aren't sticklers about the signature part.  

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Another thing to consider is that some caches have multiple containers, only one of which is the real container. Part of the challenge is to find the real container, which you can't know unless you open it up. I've found a number of caches with decoys that contained a note that told me that this wasn't the cache, and that I should keep looking.

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1 hour ago, niraD said:

Another thing to consider is that some caches have multiple containers, only one of which is the real container. Part of the challenge is to find the real container, which you can't know unless you open it up. I've found a number of caches with decoys that contained a note that told me that this wasn't the cache, and that I should keep looking.

And don't forget the gadget caches where the point IS figuring out how and acutally getting it open.

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1 hour ago, niraD said:

Another thing to consider is that some caches have multiple containers, only one of which is the real container. Part of the challenge is to find the real container, which you can't know unless you open it up. I've found a number of caches with decoys that contained a note that told me that this wasn't the cache, and that I should keep looking.

While I've found decoys in the sense of obvious hiding spots with notes about them being decoyrs (like the post cap of a chain link fence), I have to say I think an actual container at the posted coordinates is, in my own opinion, fair game as a cache.  If the cacher wants to play along, that's one thing...but the argument could be made that finding a container located at the posted coordinates can qualify as a find.  

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Thanks everyone! This feedback helps a lot. 

The containers that I think will trouble me the most initially are the smallest ones, like bison tubes or those nano button things. I was able to open a bison tube yesterday, but while I was unscrewing it, I realized that if someone had tightened it just a wee bit more I would've been out of luck. We use two hands for far more things than I ever realized before now!  A bigger jar I could probably wedge between my feet and use the good hand. And a four-sided snap lock container should be pretty straightforward for me still.

Up until now I've been fairly conscientious about signing logs. Once or twice I even forgot a pen and didn't post the fine until I returned with a pen.  But I've seen and heard some COs complain about "armchair finds", and it got me thinking. 

I think going forward I'll just work with the assumption that most COs are decent, understanding people. If I can't sign a log and someone someone deletes the find, well… life goes on.

Thanks again!

 

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24 minutes ago, J Grouchy said:

but the argument could be made that finding a container located at the posted coordinates can qualify as a find.  

Yeah, I've seen "replacement logs" added to discarded containers. It isn't quite as deliberate as a throw-down, but I'd still rather find the real cache container placed by the owner.

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1 minute ago, niraD said:

Yeah, I've seen "replacement logs" added to discarded containers. It isn't quite as deliberate as a throw-down, but I'd still rather find the real cache container placed by the owner.

Yeah...I would probably play along.  There is ONE I can think of that is a "shell game" where three sets of coordinates are posted but only one of the containers is the "true" cache.  In that case, it's listed as a multi and it's spelled out that there is a choice.  If it was listed as a traditional, I don't know how willing I would be to play a game like that.  It's one thing to write "not here!" in Sharpie on a sticker on the underside of a fencepost cap, but another thing to actually mount a container there and say that's not the cache.  

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Wouldn't be a problem for me as a cache setter as long as I knew your situation. I've not looked to see whereabouts you are, but it may be (as it often is) that there are a few prolific cache setters in your area, if so I'd suggest going to an event, having a chat with them, and explaining your situation. Ask them if it's OK with them to claim without signing, if  they want a photo with the log or sent to them privately. If there's no handy local event ... set one !

I've thought about what I would do in a scenario like yours, and I think I'd not want to leave logs unsigned without explaining why. On the other hand ( oh dear, did I just type that ? Sorry !) I wouldn't want to be constantly reiterating my medical situation when I type every unsigned  log ! So, I'd put some information about the nature of the difficulty in a brief paragraph on my profile, explain that opening some caches, unscrewing nanos or bison tubes in particular, may sometimes be impossible for me, then have a sentence in the relevant logs something along the lines of ,

"I found the cache and had it in my hand, however please see my profile for why my signature is not on the log. I have a photograph of the container which I can upload as evidence of the find if the C.O. wishes."

If you write a decent log, which will allow you to engage with the C.O., they are likely to give you the leeway to claim the find, whilst a bare "TFTC" style log gives you no kind of relationship with them, and perhaps they will delete your log (as they are perfectly entitled to within the rules). If that happens, just post a note and move on: you had the fun, found the cache, don't stress about missing +1 on your smiley count.

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Yeah, I highly doubt anyone here will say (or even consider) that your logs will be deleted just because you didn't sign it. As justin mentioned, there are COs out there who would though.

I'll add another suggestion to the mix:  Attend events!  Get to know people, let people know your special unique circumstance. Chances are, (if you don't get in anyone's bad books, which typically doesn't happen unless you're caught trying to "cheat" in some subjective way) any of those COs who now know you and your caching name, and see a Find log come through, will also be much more likely to let the log stand knowing you may not have signed the logsheet.  If necessary, come up with a special logging process that people will come to know (like messaging with a description of the cache, or a photo, etc as an alternative to the signature).

Let your reputation preceed you :)

Or, if you know that there might be a trick to the container, or it's a field puzzle of some sort, don't be afraid of team caching or going with a friend. You could still help with the tricky stuff while the fidgety hands on stuff could be done by them. Again, likely no issues with that, especially if people know you!

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16 hours ago, barefootjeff said:

Like the others who've responded, I hide my caches in the hope people will get some enjoyment from them in whatever way suits them, so someone in your situaton who's unable to sign the log would have no problem from me.

As for posting photos of the cache, it depends. If it's just something ordinary, like an ammo can or a bison tube, then as long as the photo doesn't reveal the hiding place I don't think that would be a problem, particularly if the cache's description actually says what the container is. For one that's meant to be a surprise, though, perhaps not. Also, if it's a multi or puzzle, make sure your photo doesn't have any geolocation metadata in it.

I was thinking they post that they have a pic of the container if the CO wants it.  Not necessarily posting the pic on the cache page.

 

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10 hours ago, rustynails. said:

Some people use a ink stamp. Maybe this might be an option ?

 

 

2 hours ago, Gill & Tony said:

You would be fine with my caches.

 

Maybe you could get some self-adhesive stickers with your caching name plus a note "medical issues prevent me from opening the cache" or similar and stick them to the outside.  Or would they be too fiddly for you?

 

I don't think a sticker on the outside of a bison tube or a mag.nano (the cache containers which the OP mentions as currently giving them difficulties)   would  be at all appropriate !

I'd not  be very happy to have labels stuck on the outside of my carefully camo painted clipboxes either - I'd be worried they might lift the paint, leave a sticky residue and detract from the camo by adding a flash of white ! Besides, the ink would fade in the sunshine ...or more likely here, run in the rain ...

 

Picking a sticker off a backing sheet, or opening a pocketable stamp ( the ones I've seen require some manipulation to expose the stampy bit, so when not in use they can be safely pocketed)  probably requires just as much,  if not even more, dexterity than simply using a pen. If neat handwriting on the log book or sheet was a requisite for logging a find, I'd be in deep trouble  :rolleyes: , as it is, any kind of squiggle passes for a signature, I generally use a red pen and if I have to write very small to fit a tiny log or the only available sideways gap near the top of an otherwise full nano roll I will mention in my online log that I signed sideways somewhere in red with just 'hal' or 'h' or whatever.No CO has ever quibbled with that.

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6 hours ago, Gill & Tony said:

Maybe you could get some self-adhesive stickers with your caching name plus a note "medical issues prevent me from opening the cache" or similar and stick them to the outside. 

Years ago a numbers run "team" ran through (two states that I kept track on) , and all their "finds" were a team sticker or sharpie sig on the outside of all containers.  This terrible idea included birdhouses , hide-a-key items, and other custom caches.  Sheesh...

The OP was saying that the issue might be opening nanos and bisons.  You really think putting stickers on the outside of those okay?

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I own about a hundred of geocaches in Russia and Ukraine and I'm not happy if anyone posts a "photolog" because they "forgot a pen". It's a game and the game has its simple rules. You don't say "let me play hockey without a hockey-stick because I forgot my hockey-stick but I still want to play hockey". This sounds like putting one's wishes above the game we all like.

 

Your case is different. If you ever visit this country you will have no problems getting smileys for any of my hides as soon as I know the reason for you not signing paper logbooks. Photologs aren't necessary either.

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I delete very few logs.  (Well, except on the WebCam,)  And only when they're obvious fake logs.  The well-known cacher who took a vacation trip, and logged twenty nearby caches every day.  Even though he never visited them, nor signed his name.  Caught my attention when he logged two of mine in one day.  They may have been two miles apart, but it's close to a two-hour drive to get between them.  No one had ever logged both on one day!  I did check, and no signature on either.  Then we had the truck driver, in the blizzard, who logged the one in a passenger car only rest stop.  The rest stop was closed for the blizzard.  Then he logged one on an unmaintained road.  In a blizzard???  

"Did not have a pen." makes me sigh.  You go geocaching without a pen?!?  But I leave those.

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I find this topic interesting as I have a geocaching friend who finds caches, but if there are too many muggles he won't sign the log, but then logs the cache find.  In this case, I wonder if that's allowed or considered appropriate to log the find. 

Personally, I say it's not right, but I wonder if I'm being a little too harsh.  On one hand it's a game to get out and enjoy the world.  On the other hand, I know this person is all about numbers so it bugs me!  This person doesn't even try to be stealth.  Just logs the cache with a "I'll come back later to sign log", then never does.  

 

Maybe I just need to lighten up a bit and worry about my own caching experience.  :-) 

Or maybe I'm just venting, in which case thanks for listening.  

Edited by ScooterChick
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3 hours ago, Harry Dolphin said:

"Did not have a pen." makes me sigh.  You go geocaching without a pen?!?

 

It's happened to me three times so far. On one occasion, the pen fell out of my pack in the car, which I didn't discover it until I got to GZ at the end of a long hike and went to sign the log. The other two times I'd taken a different pack to my normal caching one and forgot to put a pen in it. For the two bush caches, I improvised with a twig or a gum nut, on the urban one I went off walking to eventually find a shop where I could buy a pen, then returned to sign the log - at least I got plenty of exercise that day!

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One of our finds from June last year.

"Our first and only Arkansas cache. We were with muggles off the American Queen but managed to stealthily make the grab as we mingled. Being a Sunday and Father's Day there was no one else in town today. Went to sign the log and realised that we had left our pen on the boat. So, Mr C went back inside the museum and used the visitors book pen. Cache was replaced discreetly by pretending to closely inspect and photograph the casting of the bell. When we got back on our shuttle bus we found we had been given a pen in a souvenir pack on our arrival. Doh! Thanks kjw0169"

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On 5/3/2018 at 7:55 PM, GeoLTL said:

would you accept a log that indicates that a cacher was unable to open the cache due to disability? What if I had a picture of the cache container?

 

I personally would accept it. I accept logs like that anyway.

 

It’s really up to the CO.

 

If you can take a picture of yourself with the cache or the cache’s logbook, then that’s perfectly acceptable to me. Especially if you’ve previously mentioned that you’re physically unable to do so. 

 

Just because you're disabled shouldnt mean you cant play this wonderful game. I definitely wouldn’t be the person to tell you “no.”

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On ‎5‎/‎3‎/‎2018 at 10:55 PM, GeoLTL said:

 would you accept a log that indicates that a cacher was unable to open the cache due to disability? What if I had a picture of the cache container?

 

Be sure to be clear in each log when there's no sign that you opened the container.  I found a friend's cache recently where nobody had been there for over a year, yet has a string of online logs.  If that happened on my cache, I might delete all that aren't signed that year.  They may be not valid for any number of reasons, but they're not on the cache log.  It's the CO's responsibility, and the CO may opt to exercise that responsibility.

 

But, please, no photos of the container itself.  Unless it's the occasional cache that invites photos, I'd prefer that finders have at least the mild surprise of the container's design.

Edited by kunarion
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Early on I stopped usually mentioning in my logs whether or not I signed the physical log. I usually do sign and goodness knows I log plenty of DNFs, but the occasional drama wasn't worth it. Other areas are probably better, but here in humid, rainy Florida I would say as many as 20% of caches have logs that are either too wet to sign, ligs that are signable but too damp & moldy to be worth handling, or containers can't be opened due to rust or damage. I don't think I've ever had a CO give me a hard time about an unsigned physical log since when I was a newbie. A good reputation probably helps.

 

I would recommend a polite disclaimer on your profile page about your condition and taking photo proof as a backup when possible. A little extra discretion and planning ahead, including avoiding gadget caches when alone, would be adviseable.

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2 hours ago, -CJ- said:

Design, right; I would say that photos of the container often work as spoilers for hiding places. I used to delete such photos in my caches from time to time.

 

I often post photos of me holding the cache near GZ (making sure the actual hiding place isn't in the photo), I guess for much the same reason fishermen post photos of themselves holding the fish they caught. They bring back fond memories when I look back over the cache pages of some of my favourites. In this one, the cache page says it's an ammo can in a cave in the mountains, so I don't think I'm spoiling anything, except perhaps the scenery...

 

DSC_0130_small.jpg.4dcc5b5da9f09d927ce805f060e5c1c6.jpg

 

If the container was something out of the ordinary that was meant to be a surprise, like a themed or gadget cache, then I wouldn't, but for something run-of-the-mill like an ammo can I don't see the problem.

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An ammo can would surely make an extraordinary cache container around here :)

 

The problem with spoiler photos is that they often disclose hiding places even if the exact hiding places aren't in plain view on that photos. It's common that a photographer takes photos while standing a couple of metres from the GZ so that one can easily calculate the point where these photos were taken from. Indeed, there are caches where such spoilers don't matter much - but there are different caches too.

 

Getting back to the original question: any "photo proofs of presence" aren't needed on my caches.

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1 hour ago, -CJ- said:

The problem with spoiler photos is that they often disclose hiding places even if the exact hiding places aren't in plain view on that photos. It's common that a photographer takes photos while standing a couple of metres from the GZ so that one can easily calculate the point where these photos were taken from.

 

If it's a traditional, the coordinates themselves are meant to get you to within a few metres of GZ anyway, so how is that a problem? Yes, it's a different story with multis and mysteries, and on those I'm careful to crop the photo if there's a chance a clearly distinguishing feature might be visible. In a forest, though, which is where most of the ones I do end up, one tree looks pretty much like another, and the same for rocks.

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On 07.05.2018 at 11:39 AM, barefootjeff said:

 

If it's a traditional, the coordinates themselves are meant to get you to within a few metres of GZ anyway, so how is that a problem?

 

Sometimes the coordinates aren't that correct or a GPS unit may go wild, etc. We all know it's not necessarily that a hiding place is always within few meters from the spot where GPS device brought us - so we use hints and spoilers. When I publish a cache I assign it some difficulty level, say, 3. With an additional spoiler this level can actually be decreased to 1.

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I would encourage you to not over worry about opening the containers. I cache with a friend who has one full arm, the other is truncated near the elbow. He does quite fine opening the containers and signing the logs. Maybe because he has only ever had one arm and has coping skills, you will learn to hold a container under one arm and work the lid open. Even those pesky magnetic nano caches can be opened by him although they are more difficult. Rolling the log is another story but I've seen him do it. We bike cache and he's successful there too. He's in his mid sixties, not a spring rooster. I bet you will learn coping skills, it may not be super easy at first but you'll be able to do it I hope.  Best wishes. 

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If you don't care about your numbers and just enjoy the hunt, you don't even have to log them online. If a CO ever deletes your log, post a write note instead. If you explained in your log you couldn't do it and took a photo in the area, that is about all you can do. 

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29 minutes ago, elrojo14 said:

If you don't care about your numbers and just enjoy the hunt, you don't even have to log them online.

 

It’s a fair point, but if you don’t log them as Found, they will stay as unfound on your map.  You may have enjoyed the hunt, but not so much that you’d want to accidentally do it again. ;-)

 

I’d be fine with an explanation and a photo on any of my caches.

Edited by IceColdUK
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21 hours ago, IceColdUK said:

It’s a fair point, but if you don’t log them as Found, they will stay as unfound on your map.  You may have enjoyed the hunt, but not so much that you’d want to accidentally do it again. ;-)

 

Not if you keep an offline record :P Many people with GPS's do this.  Some apps can as well.

I don't see the point of not logging Finds online, but some others do...

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