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EmzyJanezy

Potentially Lying Geocachers

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Just now, thebruce0 said:
3 minutes ago, Team Microdot said:

Everything to do with unsubstantiated claims.

Exactly.

Good - I'm glad we're agreed on that at least ^_^

I think it's fairly safe to assume that @L0ne.R is speaking from personal experience without the need to specify that every time.

I think it's fairly safe to assume that all the posts on here are going to be predominantly based on / shaped by personal experience - so there'll be differences.

I wouldn't want people to have to constantly second-guess themselves about sharing their personal experience just because someone else claimed that them doing so was detrimental to the game when that may or not be the case.

Conversely I would say that people keeping schtum about declining standards out of fear of tipping the boat will be more detrimental to the game than them speaking up.

Just my 2c.

 

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9 minutes ago, Team Microdot said:

I think it's fairly safe to assume that @L0ne.R is speaking from personal experience without the need to specify that every time.

I'm arguing that this, as written:

47 minutes ago, L0ne.R said:

I mostly tell people that I don't enjoy the pastime much anymore. Most caches are abandoned and in rough shape. The culture has changed from a family-friendly leisure activity to a competitive leadership-board type of game, where quantity over quality dominates. The dry, family-friendly container owned by an active owner who checks and maintains it regularly cannot be easily found using the current tools.

...is a sentiment that is discouraging to potential newcomers to the hobby.  If there's more to what he describes to people, then it was left out. That alone, as described in the comment is what I'm saying is detrimental to geocaching because it discourages people from thinking "hey this could be fun!" and becoming a part of the community.  Even if it's prepended with "well this is just my opinion, but..."  It still gives a negative wash of the hobby.  Describing it that way is of course L0ne.R's choice, if he doesn't actually want people to feel encouraged to try because it could be fun for them.  I hope he doesn't want people NOT to try it, and is just about being honest about his opinion. Nonetheless, the presentation as described above is not encouraging, and is demonstrably not an objective universal perspective of geocaching as a whole, and is thus unfair to geocaching as a hobby, since such a potential newcomer could be one who does indeed enjoy it, but is discouraged from trying because of this one person's negative opinion.

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26 minutes ago, thebruce0 said:

I'm arguing that this, as written:

...is a sentiment that is discouraging to potential newcomers to the hobby.  If there's more to what he describes to people, then it was left out. That alone, as described in the comment is what I'm saying is detrimental to geocaching because it discourages people from thinking "hey this could be fun!" and becoming a part of the community.  Even if it's prepended with "well this is just my opinion, but..."  It still gives a negative wash of the hobby.  Describing it that way is of course L0ne.R's choice, if he doesn't actually want people to feel encouraged to try because it could be fun for them.  I hope he doesn't want people NOT to try it, and is just about being honest about his opinion. Nonetheless, the presentation as described above is not encouraging, and is demonstrably not an objective universal perspective of geocaching as a whole, and is thus unfair to geocaching as a hobby, since such a potential newcomer could be one who does indeed enjoy it, but is discouraged from trying because of this one person's negative opinion.

I think that's a perfectly fair argument. I'd agree that it would be a stretch to describe the experiences shared by @L0ne.R  as encouraging.

But then I was always taught that honesty is the best policy.

I think @L0ne.R is a she rather than a he - but I could be wrong.

People value opinions - good and bad.

There are some very successful and highly valued go-to websites on the Internet which exist for the purpose of sharing opinions on all sorts of things - products and services for example. If anyone with a negative opinion were prevented from sharing their opinions on there most of the value would be instantly lost.

Are some of those reviews detrimental to certain providers? Highly likely.

Are those opinions still useful and valued? Absolutely.

 

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Far beyond any point I'm trying to make, thanks. Of course I agree with those additional points. So we are in agreement - the comment and sentiment shared as is, is discouraging and detrimental (ignore that word if you don't like it) to the presentation of geocaching in that it can deter people from trying it and possibly enjoying it.  Good.

Also, yeah, I had a vague recollection L0ne.R is a she, and second guessed the gender I was typing a few times but stuck with consistency; couldn't remember for sure. My apologies, L0ne'R.

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Discouraging - yes.

Detrimental? A hunch at best.

Might actually be a good thing - might avoid introducing an undesirable to the game.

In a nutshell - you don't know.

 

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18 minutes ago, thebruce0 said:

I'm arguing that this, as written:

...is a sentiment that is discouraging to potential newcomers to the hobby.  If there's more to what he describes to people, then it was left out. That alone, as described in the comment is what I'm saying is detrimental to geocaching because it discourages people from thinking "hey this could be fun!" and becoming a part of the community.  Even if it's prepended with "well this is just my opinion, but..."  It still gives a negative wash of the hobby.  Describing it that way is of course L0ne.R's choice, if he doesn't actually want people to feel encouraged to try because it could be fun for them.  I hope he doesn't want people NOT to try it, and is just about being honest about his opinion. Nonetheless, the presentation as described above is not encouraging, and is demonstrably not an objective universal perspective of geocaching as a whole, and is thus unfair to geocaching as a hobby, since such a potential newcomer could be one who does indeed enjoy it, but is discouraged from trying because of this one person's negative opinion.

Depends who I'm talking to. A guy who wants to play for points and likes things like Pokemon Go? I would tell him he'd probably really enjoy it. But generally I'm talking to families and women (I'm female, so maybe my perspective is more female-oriented).

How would you describe the current state of geocaching to a 36-year-old mom who will be caching with a 4-year-old daughter and her 64-year-old mother? 

How would you describe the current culture, is it family-friendly? Does it emphasize responsible play, i.e. each cache should be owner monitored, maintained and finally retrieved when play is over? Does the community care?

They'd like to try a few fun, dry, swag-size, low D/T caches in some park-like settings. The area is cache-saturated they're overwhelmed with the number of caches they see on the map. 

Can they trust the logs, the cache size, the D/T rating, the attributes, the OM logs? Is there a good chance the cache and contents will have been checked and maintained by the owner in the last few months?  If the last recent log reads "the cache is in good shape" can they expect container, contents, and log to actually be in good shape?

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6 minutes ago, thebruce0 said:

.. second guessed the gender.. My apologies

No need for apologies, that's absolutely OK with me. Gender shouldn't matter. But admittedly it does give us a different perspective at times. 

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5 minutes ago, L0ne.R said:

How would you describe the current state of geocaching to a 36-year-old mom who will be caching with a 4-year-old daughter and her 64-year-old mother? 

How would you describe the current culture, is it family-friendly? Does it emphasize responsible play, i.e. each cache should be owner monitored, maintained and finally retrieved when play is over? Does the community care?

They'd like to try a few fun, dry, swag-size, low D/T caches in some park-like settings. The area is cache-saturated they're overwhelmed with the number of caches they see on the map. 

Can they trust the logs, the cache size, the D/T rating, the attributes, the OM logs? Is there a good chance the cache and contents will have been checked and maintained by the owner in the last few months?  If the last recent log reads "the cache is in good shape" can they expect container, contents, and log to actually be in good shape?

This varies immensely from area to area.  And even within an area, it's dependent on the cachers - one CO may do very well and you can count on log and description accuracy.  Others you take your chances.  I've found a wide variety of good and bad caches, and you need to talk to someone who knows the area and the cachers that place caches local to that area.

Edited by CAVinoGal
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1 minute ago, Team Microdot said:

Might actually be a good thing - might avoid introducing an undesirable to the game.

In a nutshell - you don't know.

Correct. So is it better to err on the side of positivity - recommending to someone a new hobby that may give them enjoyment and helping boost the hobby? Or on the side of negativity - possibly saving someone from the hassle of trying something new and not enjoying it and suppressing the hobby?

I'd rather be positive, and encourage positivity (ie, also pointing out where negativity, especially imbalanced negativity, one-sided critical opinions, is unfair).

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2 minutes ago, thebruce0 said:

Correct. So is it better to err on the side of positivity - recommending to someone a new hobby that may give them enjoyment and helping boost the hobby? Or on the side of negativity - possibly saving someone from the hassle of trying something new and not enjoying it and suppressing the hobby?

I'd rather be positive, and encourage positivity (ie, also pointing out where negativity, especially imbalanced negativity, one-sided critical opinions, is unfair).

Neither.

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Anyway, getting back to the point of the topic ...

Quote

 

There's a new geocacher who I strongly suspect of lying or messing about.  They started today and have apparently found 9 caches.  I know that's not unheard of, but I was first suspicious when I saw they had found some I'd tried to find that had a long string of DNFS.  Then I noticed all their logs just say something like "hikjh" and "dkghd".

The reason I'm irked is that NM logs are going to be ignored now it will appear the long standing DNF caches have been finally found.

Should I just ignore it and mind my own business or is there something I should do about this?

I could include a link to this geocacher's profile if you like.  Just wasn't sure I should be naming and shaming on a public forum.

 

You'll always run into things like this in any free public thing, it never lasts very long though. Eventually they'll get bored and move along. Some people make it a sport to false log just for the numbers, others like to collect trackables... in the end, who cares. You are out there to find a location, log it, maybe enjoy some nature, maybe share some trackables... sure, sometimes you'll find some destroyed caches, unmaintained caches. Hell I once found one filled with dog poop. It's usually the "urban" or close-to-cities caches anyway.

Either way, it's best to just enjoy playing the sport / game and ignore things like this. Like you said yourself, these logs are obviously nonsense, easy enough to ignore. A cache owner can decide if he wants to do something about that or not ^_^ People jack around to get attention, don't give it to them and move on.

Edited by stefanwilkens

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(baffling)

Yes, on topic...

1 hour ago, stefanwilkens said:

Eventually they'll get bored and move along. Some people make it a sport to false log just for the numbers

And from what I've seen there are more COs who just let it go than who actively remove what they believe to be false finds. The ones who post them bank on the COs who leave them. Sort of like spammers... thousands of random cold calls/emails with the hopes of nabbing a few.

1 hour ago, stefanwilkens said:

in the end, who cares. You are out there to find a location, log it, maybe enjoy some nature, maybe share some trackables...

Indeed... it's just annoying if you're misled because of a false log the CO did nothing about. :(  But is the false logger to blame or the CO? heh. As a finder, I think a previous suggestion is good - inform the CO and continue on.

1 hour ago, stefanwilkens said:

Either way, it's best to just enjoy playing the sport / game and ignore things like this. Like you said yourself, these logs are obviously nonsense, easy enough to ignore. A cache owner can decide if he wants to do something about that or not ^_^ People jack around to get attention, don't give it to them and move on.

Indeed.

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2 hours ago, L0ne.R said:

How would you describe the current state of geocaching to a 36-year-old mom who will be caching with a 4-year-old daughter and her 64-year-old mother? 

Disappointing. Not like it said in the brochure.

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2 hours ago, L0ne.R said:

How would you describe the current state of geocaching to a 36-year-old mom who will be caching with a 4-year-old daughter and her 64-year-old mother? 

Excellent! In my area, at least. You'll find numerous fun, accessible, well-crafted geocaches published by responsible owners. You'll also find very difficult caches, but you don't have to find them all. There are many ways to search for the types of caches you'd like to find - whether low terrain and difficulty for easier finding, or generally positively reported by how many people have marked it is a favourite, or by scrolling the map to parks, trails, conservation areas.  If you look for events, you could even opt to attend and meet up with some really fun, friendly people who'd be more than happy to show you the ropes - kids and elderly alike. I personally know of many children who go geocaching with family and greatly enjoy it, as well as many retired folk who are out and about almost daily, keeping active and healthy and adventurous. Don't be off-put if you don't happen to find your first few caches; enjoy the fun of getting outdoors and playing a kind of hide and seek. Let your inner child out!  And if you're daring, you could bump your searching to include much harder caches that require more thought, puzzling, physical effort, or equipment. But I'd hold off on that for a while, especially for the kids and parents :)

I highly recommend you give geocaching a shot!

(seriously, that's how I would describe it to those three people)

2 hours ago, L0ne.R said:

How would you describe the current culture, is it family-friendly?

Is television family friendly?  Are movies family friendly?  Is geocaching family friendly?

By comparison, first, definitely. Functionally, there is much that is family friendly, and much that is less accessible, and some that is less appropriate.  Thankfully we have the ability to filter and find what we desire amongst the enormous variety of experiences; sometimes we'll be surprised, sometimes we'll be disappointed. That's how most stuff in life works.

2 hours ago, L0ne.R said:

They'd like to try a few fun, dry, swag-size, low D/T caches in some park-like settings. The area is cache-saturated they're overwhelmed with the number of caches they see on the map. 

You don't have to find them all. I'd tell them that caches are everywhere, in abundance (at least in my area)!  Some of them are great condition, some of them so-so, some of them need some TLC. Don't be overwhelmed by how many there are. Find one or two (especially if with a child), and like a parent in many aspects of life, check things out first. Or, go find caches yourself first if you're concerned, then if you find one you believe your child would enjoy, take them to find it and enjoy the good time they'll have.

2 hours ago, L0ne.R said:

Can they trust the logs, the cache size, the D/T rating, the attributes, the OM logs? Is there a good chance the cache and contents will have been checked and maintained by the owner in the last few months?  If the last recent log reads "the cache is in good shape" can they expect container, contents, and log to actually be in good shape?

I would say "We don't expect everything to be kittens and rainbows; sometimes logs may not be helpful, even misleading; geocache contents may not be very pleasing, even quite stinky; take hand sanitizer if you're concerned about that! But as you search for geocaches, value the journey, and the occasion gem of excellent experiences. Cherish those memories. Seek those out, and you will have a great time geocaching.  But it's also not a hobby for everyone, so if you're not enjoying it, that's fine, you can just walk away!"

See, it's possible to be honest about the not-so-good, including "potentially lying geocachers" of whom the overwhelming majority of people in my experience are not, while being positive and highlighting the oh-so-good. IF you can see the oh-so-good for yourself.

 

If these three people lived in an area I knew to be very, very sparse, I may still recommend geocaching, but I wouldn't be nearly as descriptive of the area as if it were like mine. That would give them the wrong impression. Rather, I might recommend they check it out for a bit, and if they liked it, maybe they could help boost the hobby in their area. Publish some, advertise a local 101 event or two once you get used to it. Set a climate for a local geocaching community. It's an excellent opportunity to positively influence people's lives. Go for it.

Edited by thebruce0
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6 hours ago, L0ne.R said:

How would you describe the current state of geocaching to a 36-year-old mom who will be caching with a 4-year-old daughter and her 64-year-old mother? 

How would you describe the current culture, is it family-friendly? Does it emphasize responsible play, i.e. each cache should be owner monitored, maintained and finally retrieved when play is over? Does the community care?

They'd like to try a few fun, dry, swag-size, low D/T caches in some park-like settings. The area is cache-saturated they're overwhelmed with the number of caches they see on the map. 

Can they trust the logs, the cache size, the D/T rating, the attributes, the OM logs? Is there a good chance the cache and contents will have been checked and maintained by the owner in the last few months?  If the last recent log reads "the cache is in good shape" can they expect container, contents, and log to actually be in good shape?

Looking firstly at my own hides, the 4-year-old could be problematic as most involve long hikes and/or some degree of climbing, but we have quite a few family groups in the local caching community and the kids about 8 or above generally enjoy them, particularly the novelty ones like my Dark Creatures of Patonga series. I'm 63 and can still get to them all so the 64-year-old should be fine as long as she's reasonably healthy. There are others who've hidden park caches with plenty of swag that'd be more suited to the younger kids, although my immediate local area doesn't have that many at the moment. A bit further afield, though, there are plenty like that to choose from.

Aside from occasional floods and fires, our climate is generally cache-friendly so it's pretty rare for me to find a soggy cache, but another factor could simply be that this area has lots of bushland with rocky outcrops that make excellent hiding places which are sheltered from the sun and rain. Cache saturation isn't a problem; there are no power trails anywhere around here and in many parts the problem is more likely to be I've found them all, now what?

I've not had any fake logs on my hides, and only know of one, an easy find TFTC on a high D/T cache which the CO deleted after checking the logbook. Within plus or minus half a star, the D/T ratings are mostly pretty good, but yes there are occasional exceptions like a T4 that was about ten metres from the road down only a modestly steep embankment. The same with attributes, although I do question the use of the "available in winter" attribute in an ice-free climate where winter is the best time for caching. I've never encountered a fake OM log, in the sense that the CO has said they've fixed the cache when they haven't, but the new logging page that makes OM the default for owned caches can lead to some OMs that really should've been WNs. The old-fashioned system of logging NMs and NAs on failed or missing caches works pretty well here and I've yet to see a reviewer step in unless there's been an NA log or a cache has been left disabled for too long. The great majority of containers are in good shape, so most loggers don't see a need to mention it, and I don't recall seeing any with a recent "great shape" log on a cache that had obviously been mush for a long time. Caches can go missing at any time, though, so a cache that was found this morning might be muggled in the afternoon.

We seem to live in vastly different caching environments. I'm in a relatively small coastal community (the whole Central Coast population is about 300,000 spread over some 600 square kilometres) with a fairly laid-back lifestyle. As I said, there are no power trails anywhere in the region (the closest would be a few series along rural roads or bike trails but they're spaced much more than the minimum 161m with a variety of hides numbering in the tens, not hundreds), and as far as I know, there are no numbers fanatics in the regional community - it'd be tough anyway as there just aren't enough P&G caches to satisfy a numbers fanatic. The emphasis here seems to be more on adventure caches. The climate and landscape help caches survive well and most COs, if they're still active, are attentive to problems when they arise. Yes, people leave the game and their caches eventually go missing or wear out, but the NM/NA system copes fairly well with that.

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