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One climber... multiple loggers


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15 minutes ago, Doc_musketeers said:

 

Oh, man. Back to back posts ... dipping plastic and chihuahua identification 101. 

I'm only half heartedly watching this. Part of me is watching Facebook where someone is asking about a travel bug hotel. (and then there's the last part looking at the lightning and wondering how much rain we can expect tonight.

I still want to find a chihuahua in one of your caches. Or a pit bull.

 

Edited by garyo1954
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13 minutes ago, garyo1954 said:

I'm only half heartedly watching this. Part of me is watching Facebook where someone is asking about a travel bug hotel. (and then there's the last part looking at the lightning and wondering how much rain we can expect tonight.

 

Well, in lightheartedly commenting that this thread had drifted a fraction of a degree off its original heading, I seem to have spun the wheel hard and put us on the reef in chihuahua infested waters.

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13 minutes ago, Doc_musketeers said:

Well, in lightheartedly commenting that this thread had drifted a fraction of a degree off its original heading, I seem to have spun the wheel hard and put us on the reef in chihuahua infested waters.

Never a bad thing when you're going in a bad direction to reset the course. Maybe chihuahuha can become the forum safe word?

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It seems that us newer players might at times unintentionally contribute to what some of the veteran cachers see as a degradation of the game. It obviously came up a few times in this thread ...

BUT! Our neophyte team has found out we have at least one useful characteristic:

One of our longtime local cachers sent us a “friend league” request. The accompanying note basically said “I need some newbie Friends that haven’t already found all the local caches for the planet thing.”

I don’t know if I’ve ever felt quite so simultaneously flattered and humbled before.

Edited by Doc_musketeers
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2 hours ago, Doc_musketeers said:

Apparently they vary in weight from 3.3 to 6.6 pounds. But I’m not sure what that range would be in apples and sandwiches.

Well, the Labrador Retrievers we've had in our home have ranged from 50 to 70 pounds. Relative to them, all Chihuahuas are firmly in the "small" category. :)

"But I digress."
-- Tom Lehrer

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8 hours ago, Doc_musketeers said:

BUT! Our neophyte team has found out we have at least one useful characteristic:

One of our longtime local cachers sent us a “friend league” request. The accompanying note basically said “I need some newbie Friends that haven’t already found all the local caches for the planet thing.”

I don’t know if I’ve ever felt quite so simultaneously flattered and humbled before.

Relative "newbie" myself (Just over 1 year, found my first official, logged cache 3/8/2017) but my understanding of the Planetary Pursuit is you have to earn the points individually; what your friends do does not affect your individual score, and the individual score is what earns you, indivdually, the souvenirs.  That's assuming it works the same way the Mary Hyde promo did.  The aggregate group score was never actually used for anything, but having "friends" let you see how you were doing in comparison.

9 hours ago, garyo1954 said:

 Maybe chihuahuha can become the forum safe word?

So if someone is getting off topic, or things are getting a bit tense, someone yells CHIHUAHUA! and we all come back to our senses???  Hmmm! :D

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On 3/16/2018 at 6:55 AM, Touchstone said:

As a Finder, I would prefer writing my own Username on the log.

As a Cache Owner, I assume everyone is contributing to the effort in some way.  For instance, if 20-30 friends got together and built a human pyramid to access the cache, I would not begrudge the people at the bottom of the pyramid to claiming the Find.

 

 

This, almost verbatim. With one exception that I would prefer to sign my own name if at all possible. If I can't, I'd have no problem joining the team.

My minimum requirement for this practice is that you at least have to be there and participating in some manner. If you're sitting at home and get your name on the log then you should be privately mocked and ridiculed.

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54 minutes ago, CAVinoGal said:

but my understanding of the Planetary Pursuit is you have to earn the points individually;

Absolutely right. I read through the threads about the confusion on this and KNOW this. I guess I forgot about it in my excitement ~sigh ~  so much for newbie vindication. At least I fell asleep last night with a bit of geocaching self esteem. It was nice while it lasted. Lol

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9 hours ago, Doc_musketeers said:

One of our longtime local cachers sent us a “friend league” request. The accompanying note basically said “I need some newbie Friends that haven’t already found all the local caches for the planet thing.”

I don’t know if I’ve ever felt quite so simultaneously flattered and humbled before.

Oddly, this old fart that has only had one person ever on a "friends list",  had the same via emails (I'm "not accepting friends"). Something about my refusal to hit nondescript pieces of carp and word's again out.

If you feel flattered and humbled , I guess that's a good thing....

 -  But looks (to me) that I was just asked to be used for yet another promotion.  :D

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1 hour ago, CAVinoGal said:

So if someone is getting off topic, or things are getting a bit tense, someone yells CHIHUAHUA! and we all come back to our senses???  Hmmm! :D

I’m not sure it’s the best word tho... I had to go back and correct spelling twice on mine and saw it misspelled at least once on someone else’s post. Once you start typing the h’s u’s and a’s it’s hard to keep it straight.

so you’re getting flamed on the forum and type “chiuhahua!” ... the attacker looks carefully, says “nope, that’s not the safe word” and moves in for the kill.

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35 minutes ago, cerberus1 said:

Oddly, this old fart that has only had one person ever on a "friends list",  had the same via emails (I'm "not accepting friends"). Something about my refusal to hit nondescript pieces of carp and word's again out.

If you feel flattered and humbled , I guess that's a good thing....

 -  But looks (to me) that I was just asked to be used for yet another promotion.  :D

Well (a) we like him and already consider him a Geocaching Friend, lol. (B) I’m still proud that he figured we would be active enough to be worthy “team members,” even though it doesn’t work that way

I don’t really care about the “friend”’thing. Its not like social media where you need the “friendship” to be part of their online life. 

We were in a busy stage of life when the promotion came out last year so haven’t had a reason to pool scores. I didn’t even know the Friend League had the weekly leader feature until I went to the page to be ready for this new promotion.

And! That thought let’s me transition back onto topic (or at least a closely related side topic) which I’ll make a separate post, lol.

Edited by Doc_musketeers
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Many have commented that adding player-to-player competition to the game has been one impetus for some playersat least looking for loopholes if not outright “cheating” when it comes to Finds.

And don’t the Guidelines specifically forbid hides that require accomplishments that rely on “beating” other players (eg FTFs for a challenge)?

But now even the “Friend League” seems to promote competition. Who gets the high score for the week! If I need just one more Find to beat my buddies ... 

I suppose it encourages people to get out and play, and that kind of game doesn’t limit others ability to play like an FTF challenge does- my finding 100 caches this week doesn’t prevent you from doing the same but whenever there are deadlines, people get desperate.

But as I think Garyo1954 alluded to a while back, people change the rules of games like Monopoly to be able to play how they want to.

Does GS create options for head to head competition in response to player demand? I mean “we” created the FTF race sub-game, didn’t we?

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46 minutes ago, Doc_musketeers said:

Does GS create options for head to head competition in response to player demand? I mean “we” created the FTF race sub-game, didn’t we?

That's a good question...   I thought it was started by the Project Ape caches in '01.  In the promotion it was even advertised as "a race", but now not so sure...

We're hearing folks say that this new promotion's similar to challenges not allowed, so it could just be marketing ideas, and some stuck.  :)

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11 hours ago, bflentje said:

If you're sitting at home and get your name on the log then you should be privately mocked and ridiculed.

Some of the responses to the OP here have basically implied that the guidelines leave it to each player to decide ... yet as you perfectly point out, a player can manage to log a Find using loopholes but those who know the circumstances would consider it a “cheat.”

Obviously there are as many opinions as there are players... but as I watch the threads on questions like this, I’m able to see whose opinions come from a fair point of view and are based on the game’s principles. They are players who see the problems in the game but still promote it, seek to improve it, and enjoy playing! Those are the players I wouldn’t want to give reason to privately condemn my game play.

Some other comments seem to be merely bitter rants about what’s wrong with the game today. Such players don’t just lament days gone by but practically condemn the whole game. Their posts don’t welcome and encourage new players but discourage and blame them for the problems that do exist. And the deciding factor for me in taking advice: they don’t seem happy. In some cases they’ve given up whole aspects of the game. It’s like getting marriage advice from your friend who says “I’ve been divorced 3 times, listen to me, I know how this works.” Mere quantity of experience does not prove success. Should it earn a respectful hearing? Yes. Does it mean I should then do exactly what was advised? For one thing a good student never simply copies their teacher. They apply knowledge gained to their circumstances.

The only actionable advice I get from some of those posts is quit the game before it gets worse (or before my newbie presence makes it worse.)

Edited by Doc_musketeers
Removed extraneous “d”
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16 minutes ago, cerberus1 said:

That's a good question...   I thought it was started by the Project Ape caches in '01.  In the promotion it was even advertised as "a race", but now not so sure...

We're hearing folks say that this new promotion's similar to challenges not allowed, so it could just be marketing ideas, and some stuck.  :)

That would be interesting if even FTF were created ... I assumed it was player-created because it just seems like a natural game for people to start. Any two kids on the playground will race to whatever’s across the field.

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Last night I thought about why it does feel insulting (and confusing) when somehow the condition of another COs cache comes up and its implied that I should have taken particular actions regarding their cache.

firstly, that criticism usually comes from those who feel the game is already in a downward spiral and that poor cache maintenance is a symptom of that decline. Let’s accept that claim (I’m a proponent for better maintenance but won’t (can’t?) accept that the game is in its death throes).

There are three options:

1) I stick to the idea that every cache I encounter should be in perfect order. Missing, full or wet log? Nope. Won’t take the Find even if I have an acceptable substitute log with me. Heck, listing said CO placed a pencil inside! It’s gone! Just use mine? No way I’m enabling this deadbeat CO! I’ll Post an NM or even NA and walk away.

2) I give in to the debauched, honorless game Geocaching has become and carry throw downs, post finds if I think I merely found the empty hidey-hole, prop up obviously abandoned caches, etc.

3) I accept that the game has changed. Some COs aren’t as responsive as I consider proper. I vow to set a good example with my own caches and post DNFs, NMs even NAs as needed. I will praise other responsible players and those who seek to improve. But my acknowledgment of a changing game will allow me to find a personal compromise. If a cache is listed, and I make the appropriate effort and find the container, but there is a relatively minor issue (broken, lid missing, in-signable log),  I will, as far as my conscience allows, determine how to claim the Find as defined in the guidelines.

I’m going with number three ...

 

Edited by Doc_musketeers
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28 minutes ago, Doc_musketeers said:

That would be interesting if even FTF were created ... I assumed it was player-created because it just seems like a natural game for people to start. Any two kids on the playground will race to whatever’s across the field.

Possible I guess...  But this was still a "tech" outdoors hobby out of the limelight, not established as it is today.

I feel one of the main reasons "FTF" became so popular was because of the prizes offered at the time.  Few caches and players  (the reason Benchmarking was added by the site, just so folks could find something...), that most caches had something special inside to draw folks to it (even when we started in '04).  

Night-shifters end in early morning, and the other 2/3rds was easily first to a cache and claim-that-goodie.  Coaxed by others to beat a local calling himself the "FTF King" was when we realized there was such a thing as an actual "FTF race".  We'd see everything from cash and gift cards to gear.  We put an older GPSr as a FTF prize in a cache once.

These days, so many caches and cachers, no need to tease anyone to them with goodies, and now stats (I believe) is the draw for those who make this hobby a game.    :)

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18 minutes ago, cerberus1 said:

Possible I guess...  But this was still a "tech" outdoors hobby out of the limelight, not established as it is today.

I feel one of the main reasons "FTF" became so popular was because of the prizes offered at the time.  Few caches and players  (the reason Benchmarking was added by the site, just so folks could find something...), that most caches had something special inside to draw folks to it (even when we started in '04).  

Night-shifters end in early morning, and the other 2/3rds was easily first to a cache and claim-that-goodie.  Coaxed by others to beat a local calling himself the "FTF King" was when we realized there was such a thing as an actual "FTF race".  We'd see everything from cash and gift cards to gear.  We put an older GPSr as a FTF prize in a cache once.

These days, so many caches and cachers, no need to tease anyone to them with goodies, and now stats (I believe) is the draw for those who make this hobby a game.    :)

Wow. Interesting. We do love the FTF race ... but honestly part of it for us is the interaction with the other players. There’s a lot of friendly teasing in WNs (“Better start looking for your shoes, [player x]!”) 

as for the goodies, we won $1 yesterday! Lol probably wasted $5 in gas. We make custom team “FTF” fridge magnets as the prize for our non-XS hides. We’ve left in-activated TB dog tags in our puzzle caches.

it is funny because that is usually the first muggle question: “What do find in geocaches?” I cringe when I see the game referred to as a “treasure hunt” lol.

I like your differentiation between hobby and game. Really true.

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32 minutes ago, cerberus1 said:

Possible I guess...  But this was still a "tech" outdoors hobby out of the limelight, not established as it is today.

I feel one of the main reasons "FTF" became so popular was because of the prizes offered at the time.  Few caches and players  (the reason Benchmarking was added by the site, just so folks could find something...), that most caches had something special inside to draw folks to it (even when we started in '04).  

Night-shifters end in early morning, and the other 2/3rds was easily first to a cache and claim-that-goodie.  Coaxed by others to beat a local calling himself the "FTF King" was when we realized there was such a thing as an actual "FTF race".  We'd see everything from cash and gift cards to gear.  We put an older GPSr as a FTF prize in a cache once.

These days, so many caches and cachers, no need to tease anyone to them with goodies, and now stats (I believe) is the draw for those who make this hobby a game.    :)

Cerebus this played out last evening 137 miles away. A new cache went up with a gold coin. 

A guy lamented he'd never make it since he was working late. But as luck would have it, he arrived at the site around 10:30, saw it hadn't been claimed and proceeded to GZ to pick up his prize.

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23 minutes ago, garyo1954 said:

Cerebus this played out last evening 137 miles away. A new cache went up with a gold coin. 

A guy lamented he'd never make it since he was working late. But as luck would have it, he arrived at the site around 10:30, saw it hadn't been claimed and proceeded to GZ to pick up his prize.

Locally there’s a handful of active cachers. A few veterans, a few single-digit newbies another relatively new couple and our team. The other young couple and us are pretty active placing new hides, and we went through a period of being FTF on each other’s new caches. Then all of us locals will somehow simultaneously decide to “let the others have a chance this time” and a new cache will sit for days only to have FTF go to some out-of-area cacher traveling through, who inevitably comments “surprised nobody’d found this yet...”

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27 minutes ago, garyo1954 said:

Cerebus this played out last evening 137 miles away. A new cache went up with a gold coin. 

A guy lamented he'd never make it since he was working late. But as luck would have it, he arrived at the site around 10:30, saw it hadn't been claimed and proceeded to GZ to pick up his prize.

18 minutes ago, Doc_musketeers said:

... Then all of us locals will somehow simultaneously decide to “let the others have a chance this time” and a new cache will sit for days only to have FTF go to some out-of-area cacher traveling through, who inevitably comments “surprised nobody’d found this yet...”

Cool.  :)  These days, only really long walks or higher terrain hides have prizes similar here.  We don't see that kinda stuff much anymore, now that nondescript caches are placed only for a find count .

We were FTF in an entire series in another state once ...  Then we found out that the CO holding an event messed the  publishing date up, and the reason no one else went there was it was supposed to be held for that event first.  :laughing:

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13 minutes ago, cerberus1 said:

Cool.  :)  These days, only really long walks or higher terrain hides have prizes similar here.  We don't see that kinda stuff much anymore, now that nondescript caches are placed only for a find count .

We were FTF in an entire series in another state once ...  Then we found out that the CO holding an event messed the  publishing date up, and the reason no one else went there was it was supposed to be held for that event first.  :laughing:

The other local couple I've mentioned published a cache recently and they instantly disabled it with a note that one of them would be at GZ for some unexpected last minute work. We shot out a WN that we’d come watch and the rest of the local “crew” started listing what they’d bring (popcorn, cream eggs ...) to the supposed impromptu event.

(obviously we all waited. And the cleverness was worth the wait, lol)

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16 minutes ago, Doc_musketeers said:

Locally there’s a handful of active cachers. A few veterans, a few single-digit newbies another relatively new couple and our team. The other young couple and us are pretty active placing new hides, and we went through a period of being FTF on each other’s new caches. Then all of us locals will somehow simultaneously decide to “let the others have a chance this time” and a new cache will sit for days only to have FTF go to some out-of-area cacher traveling through, who inevitably comments “surprised nobody’d found this yet...”

That's what I'm expecting here.

The top 30 longest not found have not been seen in 200+ days. In one, the last log entry was "area burnt out, tree down. DNF"  That was in 2016. To date there has been no confirmation the cache is alive.

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On ‎3‎/‎16‎/‎2018 at 9:00 AM, hzoi said:

This is going to sound cold, but I imagine there are a lot of things that people who can't climb a  cliff, bridge, tree, whatever would like to be included in but physically can't accomplish.  I question whether signing a log on their behalf they could never reach is really including them. 

I understand and respect your point here.  However, I will argue signing a log on their behalf is including them in the community and the online logging aspect of the game.  I support that over stiff rules if it brings joy to another human.

I've done both.  I've refused to e-log geocaches I know are beyond my physical or comfort limits.  I've also logged geocaches within my limits but didn't see the point in ten people making a simple six-foot climb to simply satisfy the spirit of the hide.

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On 3/17/2018 at 3:53 PM, garyo1954 said:

Way back in the 1970s we started a war on litter. "Give a Hoot, don't pollute!" Remember that? We were going to beautify America. Clean up our highways.

Well, 40 odd years later we haven't defeated a piece of paper, or an empty soda can laying alongside the highways and byways. About once a month I pick up a bottle or a can, or a fast food bag, along the edge of my property. What are the chances of people following the rules when as a whole, we can't defeat a defenseless piece of paper?

non sequitur: While I understand your point, my guess is that things would be much, much worse if we hadn't spent those 40 years fighting litter.

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My rule, such as it is, is that if the folks in my group are all actively looking for the cache at GZ and one of us comes up with it, if it's inconvenient for one of us to all slide down the hill to where one of us has found it, then I'm not going to worry too much about it.  In my mind, that's a fair team find.  I'm immune to poison oak, so if the last 20 yards or so are through a PO field, I'll plow right through and sign for the team or bring it out and back for them to sign.

Where I draw the line for my ownself is that the group has to be working on *that* cache.  I'd never claim any sort of leap-frogging in my total.  But that's me.

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I have an inner ear problem that's damaged my sense of balance so I sometimes need a bit of help with caches that are too exposed for my liking. That might mean going with a friend or small group and having the log passed back to me to sign, carrying a telescopic ladder to GZ (I've done that on a 5km hike through hilly terrain) or even figuring out a less challenging but longer route to GZ if the suggested route involves climbing I'm uncomfortable with. While I judge each case on its merits, I guess my general rule is that if I write my name in the logbook, or was close enough to have done so when someone else was doing the writing, then I'm comfortable claiming a find, otherwise not. For example, on one tough T4 multi that involved crossing river rapids using stepping-stone boulders to reach GZ, my companions made it across but I didn't want to risk slipping on the wet rock and losing my balance, so I stayed on the far shore and photographed the other two making the find. Even though they wrote my name in the logbook, I didn't claim the find in spite of the CO insisting I should, but instead went back a few months later when the river level had dropped and completed the find then.

In those cases where I've employed a "workaround", I always document it in my log and if the CO were to think I'd had too much help I'd happily go along with them and revoke my find, even though technically my name was in the logbook. So far that hasn't happened, but the high-terrain hiders around here are all a pretty friendly bunch :).

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On 3/16/2018 at 7:00 AM, hzoi said:

This is going to sound cold, but I imagine there are a lot of things that people who can't climb a  cliff, bridge, tree, whatever would like to be included in but physically can't accomplish.  I question whether signing a log on their behalf they could never reach is really including them.

Merely signing a log on their behalf, but doing nothing else? No, that's not really including them.

Helping them participate in the search as much as they are able, and signing the log on their behalf even though they weren't able to do 100% of the work on their own? That seems different to me. And it seems rather similar to a lot of group caching that is done by groups of perfectly able-bodied geocachers.

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Would say am of the same opinion as the replies make above: If one "stops by" with a group, only those who actually perform the intent of the challenge should get credit but who is going to police that - Of course, those involved but will they actually make it known? No!

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4 hours ago, Z_Statman said:

Would say am of the same opinion as the replies make above: If one "stops by" with a group, only those who actually perform the intent of the challenge should get credit but who is going to police that - Of course, those involved but will they actually make it known? No!

I tend to find you can tell if there was a little concern; if the 'group' cachers are all named in a log text, that usually means they intend that no one else (who may have 'swung by') would be able to claim the group find.  That's a sort of insurance some people do, just to deter that sort of thing.  Otherwise yeah, it would require either the CO to check in with at least one group member and be that style owner who verifies all the group finds by honour system, or someone in the group returning to check followup logs to ensure no one else is claiming the find with the group and reporting anyone who does to the CO.  Easiest way is to list people from the group in your log if you're that concerned. I think it'd be rare really that anyone would actually try to piggy-back on a group find they weren't a part of; though I'm sure it happens...

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This is my take on the situation:

Scenario 1

Claiming a find: I can't climb trees, but my son can. If I am caching with him and he goes up a tree to retrieve a cache I am more than happy for him to write my name on it as well as his, and I'll claim a find because although I can't climb up myself I can watch him and give him guidance about where he might place his feet and hands. As his 'safety net', I'll have participated in the find although I didn't physically go up myself.

Note - This has yet to happen. Being able to climb doesn't necessarily mean he wants to!

Scenario 2 (this one has happened)

Not claiming a find: I'm with a large group of people after an event in a local woodland park. One of our number climbs the tree and I stand around chatting to other group members. I don't do anything at all to help with the find; I leave that to one or two close friends of the climber. I don't claim a find because even though I'm part of the group I have done nothing to assist him except to cheer when he is back down on the ground.

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On ‎3‎/‎15‎/‎2018 at 10:44 PM, Doc_musketeers said:

This has probably come up before but is hard to search for.

What’re the opinions regarding etiquette when it comes to high terrain caches that involve a final climb? Our team of three signs logs as a single user (Doc_musketeers) but if we were caching with others, and one cacher climbed the cliff, bridge, tree, whatever ... and the log or entire cache was removable, could they hand it down for all to sign? Or should everyone take turns scaling the obstacle? Any sympathy based on age or other physical limitation?

 

it all depends on those involved really.  I've seen a CO host an event "under that tree" so that one person could shimmy up and pass the log around below.  I've seen a CO volunteer to meet potential seekers AT the cache WITH equipment.  I've also seen ominous warnings on the cache page that the only way to get your name on the log legally was to do the climb --- of course this isn't really enforceable at all as I've been both the climber/signer and person on ground.  of course, I have been the CO in one instance and caught someone signing for another person who was clearly 500 miles away at the same time.  most of my T5s are boat anyway as gravity has a greater effect on me, so I'm more apt to trade a puzzle solution for a tree climber....  to each their own.

of the higher d/t combos, most seem to come by challenge caches at this point in the numbers, so at this point many of our stats are skewed to show us much more physically inclined than we really are.

 

 

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When I'm asked about 'coattail' logging on any of my hides or puzzles, I ask one question. "Did you have fun!".  If you did, then please log them with my compliments.  I put them out for people to enjoy with no expectation the EVERYONE will be able to solve them or retrieve them.

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On 3/16/2018 at 0:59 AM, Ambrosia said:

I have mixed feeling about this. On one hand, I feel like higher terrain caches are intended to be found that way by each cacher. But then on the other hand, I feel like it's a bit silly if you have a group of five people and each one climbs up, signs the cache, climbs down, another climbs up, signs the cache, climbs down, etc.

"On the other hand...NO! THERE IS NO OTHER HAND!" - Tevye   :laughing:

I'm a bit late to this thread. Started reading and came to your post which immediately had me wanting to reply.

While i agree that it seems kinda silly, the original intentions of the CO was to make their cache a bit different from the rest by making it more challenging. That would mean that he or she most likely wanted every person claiming a find on the cache to actually make the climb to get the cache. At the same time, some owners are lenient and will let a person's find log stand even if they stood on the ground and watched. And i would agree, this is something between the CO and the finder.

For me, regardless if someone else climbs up ahead of me, i always make the climb myself before logging found. I'd log my DNF in a heartbeat if i didn't or couldn't do it myself for some reason. This being said, there have been several occasions where i made the climb and either handed the cache down for the group to sign or signed the group's names in while up in the tree. Again, not something i agreed with but then not something i worried about either as i figured this was between CO and the finder's conscience.

 

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9 hours ago, Mudfrog said:

the original intentions of the CO was to make their cache a bit different from the rest by making it more challenging. That would mean that he or she most likely wanted every person claiming a find on the cache to actually make the climb to get the cache.

I respectfully disagree.  I cannot presume to know the intent of the hider but for myself I do not expect everyone to actually make the climb on my hides.  If however I had a lamp skirt hide (which I don't), I would expect every finder to lift that skirt for themselves.

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2 hours ago, badlands said:

I respectfully disagree.  I cannot presume to know the intent of the hider but for myself I do not expect everyone to actually make the climb on my hides.  If however I had a lamp skirt hide (which I don't), I would expect every finder to lift that skirt for themselves.

Oh, oh - we are in trouble.  Hubby and  I cache together, he drives, I lift the skirt and grab the container, bring it back to the car, one of us opens it, he usually signs the log with a "team signature" that means us, the two of us, we put it back together, and I usually replace it under the skirt.  We both log the find under our own name/account with a note that the log was signed as "insert team name here" ... is this wrong?

We do the same on tree climbs and other trickier hides - if one of us can get to the container and logsheet, we BOTH claim it.  And one of us signs the log withboth names or our "team" name.  Right or wrong?  Either way, that's how we play it.

 

Edited by CAVinoGal
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36 minutes ago, Z_Statman said:

We have a similar issue here wrt paddle caches; It's hard for me to understand that there are those who "sit and watch" then log the cache as if they actually performed

Most often I'll see credit given where credit is due.  "Monkey.Tree.Climber did the hard work for us" or something to that effect.  But yes, if you claim it as if you actually performed the deed, that that is just tacky and a slap in the fact to the one who did the work.

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2 hours ago, badlands said:

Most often I'll see credit given where credit is due.  "Monkey.Tree.Climber did the hard work for us" or something to that effect.  But yes, if you claim it as if you actually performed the deed, that that is just tacky and a slap in the fact to the one who did the work.

I'll note in my log who did the work - or how each of the team contributed to the effort.  We took a pontoon boat across the Colorado River to caches accessible only from the river - 9 on board, 4 of us were geocachers.  Not all of us got out of the boat at each cache, but each of us were out of the boat for at least one of the caches - and we all claimed the finds and noted it was a group effort.

On a simple lamp post or guardrail, I don't usually bother to note who made the grab or actually "found" it first ... we work as a team.

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7 hours ago, Z_Statman said:

We have a similar issue here wrt paddle caches; It's hard for me to understand that there are those who "sit and watch" then log the cache as if they actually performed

Same happens with puzzle caches. One make the hard work and then others log the cache as if they actually solved the puzzle.

To keep things easy and avoid disputes there is only one requirement for "Found It" - the name in the logbook - nothing else matters.

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7 hours ago, Z_Statman said:

We have a similar issue here wrt paddle caches; It's hard for me to understand that there are those who "sit and watch" then log the cache as if they actually performed

uh oh.  I'm guilty of this.  yesterday i was in a tandem kayak with my 8 year old.  we paddled up to a tree, i aimed us for the most reasonable spot and told him to stand and look in "that hole".  he did, and it was there.  he logged for both of us as i sat 5 feet away.

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32 minutes ago, BulldogBlitz said:

uh oh.  I'm guilty of this.  yesterday i was in a tandem kayak with my 8 year old.  we paddled up to a tree, i aimed us for the most reasonable spot and told him to stand and look in "that hole".  he did, and it was there.  he logged for both of us as i sat 5 feet away.

Hmm... Maybe neither of you should be allowed to log a Find. After all, you were 5 feet away when the cache was found. And surely an 8-year-old didn't really contribute significantly to the paddling, and shouldn't be rewarded with a Find on a T5 cache. Yeah, maybe we should get REALLY picky like that.

Or maybe not. As someone once said...

41 minutes ago, arisoft said:

To keep things easy and avoid disputes there is only one requirement for "Found It" - the name in the logbook - nothing else matters.

 

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16 hours ago, niraD said:

Or maybe not. As someone once said...

17 hours ago, arisoft said:

To keep things easy and avoid disputes there is only one requirement for "Found It" - the name in the logbook - nothing else matters.

Indeed. But there is still a limit.  ref: couch logging. BUT, that's not a decision we make, that's one that HQ or appeals decides, given enough supporting evidence.

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To keep things easy and avoid disputes there is only one requirement for "Found It" - the name in the logbook - nothing else matters.

This is why i bring a hand writing analyst with me when i check the logs in my caches. She compares the signatures on the logs in our caches with known samples to determine if it is the finder's actual signature. You can't imagine the number of find logs i've deleted over the years. Ok, just kidding of course,, :lol:.

My first thought is that this should be a simple either/or situation, A person either finds the cache or he doesn't. He either makes it up the tree to grab the cache, or he doesn't. Of course we all know that it doesn't work this way because of all our different ways of thinking. Most COs are forgiving and it's a good thing because of the wide a range of personal tastes and ethics out there. 

 

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3 minutes ago, Mudfrog said:

Of course we all know that it doesn't work this way because of all our different ways of thinking. Most COs are forgiving and it's a good thing because of the wide a range of personal tastes and ethics out there. 

And because attempting to adjudicate the variety of disputes would be a monumental headache and incomparable disaster.  Best resolve: lowest reasonable verification denominator. 1] cache has been visited (signed) 2] finder is connected to signature 3] owner can verify both. Inevitable caveats against "proof of find": A] cache could go missing B] finder didn't necessarily sign or visit C] owner isn't required to verify claims.
Judging a balance between any of those situations to make a decision would be ridiculous. Name in log, leave it up to personal honour system and ethics from that point and hope for the best :P  The spirit of the hobby is clear, and the letter of the law requires so much less that the whole grey area between is a perfect storm.

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As a CO, I don't own any high terrain/tree climbing caches.

As a finder, I am happy to log a find with a clear conscious if I feel I contributed.      For example, a multi stage cache which had several stages needing different physicality.   I did one stage which involved squeezing into a cave.   My friend did another which involved climbing a tree.   I didn't feel each of us needed to do everything.    

Another example was a cave cache which involved difficult climbing with ropes.   I was invited by friends, at first I declined as I felt the physical task was beyond me.   My friend encouraged me to come along as they needed someone to help above ground with the ropes.     I agreed, and I logged the find (they sent the cache up to me on a rope to sign).    Here I did feel slightly guilty, but I was part of the team and they needed my contribution.   

 

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