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Aer72

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2 hours ago, kunarion said:

 

The fees and approval process apply only to submissions of new custom Geocoins.

Like you, I'd rather be able to use a tracking number on a project or two, not a whole bunch of the same object.  So that's why I use "Travel Bug" dogtags or other tags or coins I've bought for the purpose.  You may pretty much use the tracking number as you like, such as marking it on an object, and design its page to match.  If it's for a gift, I'd also provide the coin or tag that the tracking number is from.

AND you could invent your own serialization system.  In my profile you see "kunarion's cache zippers", each with a unique serial number.  Each run has a new prefix, like Z001, Z002, etc.  But as they are 4-digit numbers, they can't be Official Geocaching Tracking numbers, so maybe they aren't confused for tracking numbers.  This is my own personal "tracking" system.  There are no "Groundspeak" hoops to jump through.  Just a idea.

Agreed, the travel bug/dog tags route is easier for putting out a couple of items, but expensive in bulk numbers.

In this case we're talking 20 to 25 items, immediately getting tagged and leaving the hand (say starting March 19 when the Planetary game starts...lol). That means the personal serials would be more possible without the expense. Putting out a bulk and seeing where they go and how fast they get there would be fun but tracking is not essential. Looking through the list of 500 in the Garmin, I question how many would be picked up immediately. Many caches in this area sit for months without a visit while the ones close to the interstate and around the loops receive multiple visits per week or month. The bed and breakfasts caches are the hot spots. And always seem to have trackables.

As it is the items I put out are going to be put out either way, with or without a tracking number. They'll be placed in caches or in parks or some stop along the way from here to there to anywhere (and to nowhere). And I've already decided on two good places for my own caches, not so out of the way they get no visitors and not so busy people will trip over them.

Once I'm more experienced and better acclimated to understand the process, I can always change my mind.....:D
 

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19 minutes ago, cerberus1 said:

1/ Okay,  let's say I want a new coin design with a "full monty" pose front and back.  Literally.  My next will be of a crazy, heel-clicking  little-mustached  guy, and an odd, almost cult fan-like design on the back.  That okay with you?  Family friendly?   I'd like the site to at least give 'em a look thanks...

2/ There used to be a few more competing location games (still a couple...).  Also a couple sites that thought they'd create their own, competing  trackables business, using this site's members to do it.   Do you think that's fair?  Trackables that are trackable on this site need a way that allows others in this hobby to identify  it as  "one of ours" Having the Geocaching.com logo with "Trackable at geocaching.com" usually does that.  We still see some here who "can't log it", to find it's another game, or simply a signature item. 

This site's actually a lot easier on things now it seems (to me) , as discussing a competing trading / "trackable" coin-like object you mentioned earlier would have ended this thread a while ago.  ;)

3/ I have an old navy sweatshirt on, over my under armor tee.  Wranglers over my duluth boxers. Under armor Siberia boots over smartwool socks. How do I know?  Everything these days has a print, tag, alligator emblem ... ads on them.  Cabelas has their name on pretty-much everything you buy. This doesn't mean I favor or represent any over another.  They just came with them.  Is there any sports team item that doesn't have a logo on it?  You're paying them for their ad?

Agree with kunarion, craft-type items are probably best served by TB codes. Still should state "trackable on geocaching .com", or it's likely gonna be considered swag.   :)

You seem hot under the collar.

First, its not like people haven't complained about finding off color, or even pornographic materials left in caches before.
Secondly, I'm offended that you bring it into the conversation with such an accusatory tone as if that's my intent.

I outlined my thoughts along legal issues, not based on content. If you choose to misunderstand that, I can't help you.

If Budweiser wanted to advertise during the Super Bowl, Budweiser would pay radio or television. Radio and television stations do not pay Budweiser to advertise. Yes, there may be some mutual agreement between two parties if they both see benefit. But there is no mutual benefit in making a design, paying for the production of the design and placing someone else's name and trademark on it (without them paying for it). That's just good business sense. 

From the opposite side a person could be sued for using the company logo without approval. And that is good business sense too since you want to know how it used and if the use is in line with company profile.

As far as your sweatshirt, underwear, and T-shirt, and whatever else you wear that's a bucket without a bottom. You have the choice to not purchase and not wear.  If you want a T-shirt, you don't have to settle for Hanes. And nobody requires anyone to wear those labels. You could rip them off if it bothers you. (Lest we forget the shirt company got paid to put "Hanes" on that T-shirt. And somebody got paid to make those labels.)

So......

My choices are to agree to their terms or to not agree to their terms. I don't agree.

And I don't have a problem with it.
 

 

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2 hours ago, garyo1954 said:

You seem hot under the collar.

First, its not like people haven't complained about finding off color, or even pornographic materials left in caches before.
Secondly, I'm offended that you bring it into the conversation with such an accusatory tone as if that's my intent.

 

3 hours ago, cerberus1 said:

let's say I want a new coin design with a "full monty" pose front and back. 

Just an observation: Cerberus 1 chose himself as the one with bad intent in his illustration, not you. I think he was simply explaining why TPTB might want to review the design of what they would be inherently endorsing by allowing it to be intimately connected to their listing website. He wasn’t accusing you of planning anything inappropriate.

And yes, people complain about finding x-rated items because such things do go against the family-friendly goal of the game. The fact that some people ignore this and occasionally “get away with it” shouldn’t mean that GS shouldn’t continue to do their best to monitor for  and stop such infractions and there’s no way that won’t “infringe”’on everyone else to some minor degree.

GS is the one providing the listing service complete with pages for each trackable. That does give them the right to exercise a little control.

Edited by Doc_musketeers
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Feeling personally offended by GS wanting to review a geocoin design is like arguing with security when asked to go through the metal detector at an airport because obviously YOU would never do anything bad on an airplane

Edited by Doc_musketeers
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The fact is, this game relies on having a central listing service for caches. Is everything GS does perfect? Hardly. But are they some money-grubbing multinational with dilusions of world domination of hidden Tupperware? Don’t think so.

This game used to require at least what? $150 bucks for a GPSr? Now there’s an App you can run on your phone for free. There’s a website and a message center and events, etc. etc. A TB dogtag costs what? $5? For physical tags and an “eternal” webpage? C’mon. I can’t even see that being profitable!

Our team hasn’t  set up any of our caches to be PMO because (a) we are newbies who jump up and down whenever someone bothers to look for one of our hides  (b) we are in a remote area and (c) there is one venerable cacher who doesn’t have a membership and we want him to receive notifications of our new hides.

BUT: In the end there’s no free lunch. Using PMO caches as one incentive for players to contribute to the game doesn’t bother us at all. If you own a GPSr or a smartphone and have free time to cache, you can probably afford to chip in and support the cache listings that make the game possible.

Edited by Doc_musketeers
Attempted clarification...

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49 minutes ago, Doc_musketeers said:

Our team hasn’t  set up any of our caches to be PMO because (a) we are newbies who jump up and down whenever someone bothers to look for one of our hides  (b) we are in a remote area and (c) there is one venerable cacher who doesn’t have a membership and we want him to receive notifications of our new hides.

 

I thought notifications was a Premium Member benefit, that those with a free membership wouldn't get.

Edited by Max and 99

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14 minutes ago, Max and 99 said:

I thought notifications was a Premium Member benefit, that those with a free membership wouldn't get.

Exactly. In our area there are only a few really active cachers. (Maybe 6? Ish?) One of them has some historical reason for not having a membership. We made the mistake recently of “bumping” the PMO button on a Mystery Cache and this cacher - the king of local puzzle cachers - didn’t get notified. In this particular case, no one could argue this long-time Geocacher hadn’t contributed his fair share to the game whether or not he pays membership dues. That’s the exception.

but even in this case, he could still find and log the Find (which he did) online.

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52 minutes ago, Doc_musketeers said:

The fact is, this game relies on having a central listing service for caches. Is everything GS does perfect? Hardly. But are they some money-grubbing multinational with dilusions of world domination of hidden Tupperware? Don’t think so.

This game used to require at least what? $150 bucks for a GPSr? Now there’s an App you can run on your phone for free. There’s a website and a message center and events, etc. etc. A TB dogtag costs what? $5? For physical tags and an “eternal” webpage? C’mon. I can’t even see that being profitable!

Our team hasn’t  set up any of our caches to be PMO because (a) we are newbies who jump up and down whenever someone bothers to look for one of our hides  (b) we are in a remote area and (c) there is one venerable cacher who doesn’t have a membership and we want him to receive notifications of our new hides.

BUT: In the end there’s no free lunch. Using PMO caches as one incentive for players to contribute to the game doesn’t bother us at all. If you own a GPSr or a smartphone and have free time to cache, you can probably afford to chip in and support the cache listings that make the game possible.

Well, Doc, you do have Eureka in your profile....

(I do see I haven't made the dissuading factors as clear as necessary.)

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15 minutes ago, Doc_musketeers said:

Exactly. In our area there are only a few really active cachers. (Maybe 6? Ish?) One of them has some historical reason for not having a membership. We made the mistake recently of “bumping” the PMO button on a Mystery Cache and this cacher - the king of local puzzle cachers - didn’t get notified. In this particular case, no one could argue this long-time Geocacher hadn’t contributed his fair share to the game whether or not he pays membership dues. That’s the exception.

but even in this case, he could still find and log the Find (which he did) online.

There are less than 15 premium caches within 60 miles here which seems a shame. And looking at logs it does appear more people passing through are looking for the caches than are the locals.

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1 hour ago, Doc_musketeers said:

 

Our team hasn’t  set up any of our caches to be PMO because (a) we are newbies who jump up and down whenever someone bothers to look for one of our hides  (b) we are in a remote area and (c) there is one venerable cacher who doesn’t have a membership and we want him to receive notifications of our new hides.

 

I'm not getting it.  If the cacher doesn't have a membership, he doesn't get notifications of any caches, PMO or not. Any caches.  So whether your caches are PM or not is irrelevant. He won't get notifications even if your cache isn't PMO. What am I not understanding? You want him to get notifications of your non PM caches but he can't. I feel like I'm missing something or not understanding. 

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40 minutes ago, garyo1954 said:

Well, Doc, you do have Eureka in your profile....

(I do see I haven't made the dissuading factors as clear as necessary.)

 

22 minutes ago, garyo1954 said:

There are less than 15 premium caches within 60 miles here which seems a shame. And looking at logs it does appear more people passing through are looking for the caches than are the locals.

This thread seems to have split into two discussions: Trackables in regard to the oversight GS demands, and the original point about PMO caches. I guess my posts attempted to address both subjects and now I’ve confused myself because I have no idea what your first response means, lol.

As for your second point: as we’ve admitted, we aren’t sold on the benefits of PMO caches in all situations. But we can’t subscrube to the idea that a CO’s decision to make a Cache PMO is somehow “selfish” or “elitist.”

Promoting the main company that makes our game possible (whether you think there should be competing services or not) inherently promotes our game, which is player-created and player-maintained, doesn’t strike me as a bad thing.

most traveling cachers tend to be serious enough to be paying members. Our team is “fresh” enough that we have energy to help out newbie cachers and don’t mind dealing with non-members. Our cache listings tend to be very interactive for that reason.

 We’ve even had a member of a local rock-hiding group find one of our caches and assume the entire cache should be moved to a new location just like painted rocks are re-hidden in a different spot... So we totally understand and support COs who want to both promote the game and limit the number of potential “misunderstandings” that come with non-“committed” newbie cachers.

 

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22 minutes ago, Max and 99 said:

I'm not getting it.  If the cacher doesn't have a membership, he doesn't get notifications of any caches, PMO or not. Any caches.  So whether your caches are PM or not is irrelevant. He won't get notifications even if your cache isn't PMO. What am I not understanding? You want him to get notifications of your non PM caches but he can't. I feel like I'm missing something or not understanding. 

You’re totally correct. I was unclear (simultaneously typing and cooking dinner is apparently too much). I meant “access” in general. I’m not sure if he uses the app or a laptop ... I just know that another local cacher couldn’t figure out why they hadn’t jumped on our new puzzle cache, then said “Oh! I see! You marked it PMO ...” in way of explaining. And to be clear, I only mentioned that individual cacher in the interest of complete disclosure. Since I’m supporting the logic of PMO caches without owning on myself ... Remoteness plays a larger role in our decision so far.

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17 minutes ago, Doc_musketeers said:

 

This thread seems to have split into two discussions: Trackables in regard to the oversight GS demands, and the original point about PMO caches. I guess my posts attempted to address both subjects and now I’ve confused myself because I have no idea what your first response means, lol.

As for your second point: as we’ve admitted, we aren’t sold on the benefits of PMO caches in all situations. But we can’t subscrube to the idea that a CO’s decision to make a Cache PMO is somehow “selfish” or “elitist.”

Promoting the main company that makes our game possible (whether you think there should be competing services or not) inherently promotes our game, which is player-created and player-maintained, doesn’t strike me as a bad thing.

most traveling cachers tend to be serious enough to be paying members. Our team is “fresh” enough that we have energy to help out newbie cachers and don’t mind dealing with non-members. Our cache listings tend to be very interactive for that reason.

 We’ve even had a member of a local rock-hiding group find one of our caches and assume the entire cache should be moved to a new location just like painted rocks are re-hidden in a different spot... So we totally understand and support COs who want to both promote the game and limit the number of potential “misunderstandings” that come with non-“committed” newbie cachers.

 

My first response was an acknowledgement  that everyone jumps (Eureka!) when someone looks for your caches.

 

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32 minutes ago, garyo1954 said:

My first response was an acknowledgement  that everyone jumps (Eureka!) when someone looks for your caches.

 

Lol. We wish. Our area recently had a string of great new caches published. Our team had a couple published and argued that finding our caches would at least help the locals earn some more favorite points to award to the next set of exceptional caches.

I wasn’t sure if you somehow knew our town well enough to judge it accurately. For some of the local “urban” caches the phrase “Eureka!” Is used thusly: “I couldn’t find the nano but Eureka! I pricked my finger on a discarded syringe ...”

Edited by Doc_musketeers

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23 minutes ago, Manville Possum said:

 

Sounds like you have a wonderful community for basic members. :)

I'd say we have more rock hunters than cache hunters. And the rock hunters have their own facebook page which is more than the cachers have. I ended up finding geocaching while posting treasure boxes and asking if those would be okay. They are, but I was also referred to a geocacher in the area who got me started.

As it is I'm free to post on the rock page. I don't mind trying both. I can always get coordinates or a picture, post on the rock page and have the rockers get them. Doing that, only once has a box gone unfound for two days.

Edited by garyo1954

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27 minutes ago, Doc_musketeers said:

Lol. We wish. Our area recently had a string of great new caches published. Our team had a couple published and argued that our caches were helping the locals earn some more favorite points for the next set of exceptional caches.

I wasn’t sure if you somehow knew our town well enough to judge it accurately. For some of the local “urban” caches the phrase “Eureka!” Is used thusly: “I couldn’t find the nano but Eureka! I pricked my finger on a discarded syringe ...”

No, Doc, never been to Eureka. Just listening to what you were saying.
The only syringes (I think it was all one) I found metal detecting a ball field. 
The rest is mostly rusty nails, screws, occasionally a can.
Coins are generally the deteriorating zinc penny. Took half a coffee can of those to the bank and was told I needed to send them to the mint. It would cost more to send them then they are worth! 

 

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On 3/12/2018 at 8:57 AM, Manville Possum said:

Let me clarify, I meant PMO excludes non-paying members from joining the game to seek PMO caches, and when I removed my listings from PMO status I saw an influx of more new players that were basic members. 

My belief is with more PMO listings there is less to offer for basic members and makes the game less attractive. Just my view as a former cache owner that supported the game with PMO listings in the hundreds. 

Based on your description of your particular area, PMO caches would be extremely limiting to those without premium membership and it's my guess that if I lived there, I'd forego the PMO designation on any caches I placed.  There just aren't enough caches and cachers in the area to justify making ALL the caches PMO, much less a small percentage.

However, your belief that more PMO listings makes the game less attractive and has less to offer for basic members doesn't hold as much water in areas that are saturated with thousands of caches.  While there will certainly be less caches to choose from if, say 20-25%, there are PMO caches, there are still thousands of other caches to choose from for a basic member, with varying D/T ratings, as well as various types of caches to choose from.  It's not exactly a 1:1 correlation.

That doesn't mean that I don't agree with your viewpoint as it pertains to an area similar to yours; I do.  I'm just fortunate enough to live in an area that has thousands of caches to choose from, and basic members have lots of opportunities without very many limits available to them, without having to revert to a premium membership to be able to find more caches.

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4 hours ago, Manville Possum said:

Geocaching has became more about the easy urban micro hides and less about the hiking trail ammo can placements and is no longer about bringing people to interesting places, but places only for thoughtless cache placements.

I found a reason for this.

4 hours ago, Manville Possum said:

I changed the status of my listings back from PMO after a couple of years and did notice a find increase, but not enough to keep me interested in being a cache owner, so I archived them and let my premium membership expire.

^ This is the reason.

Instead of making more caches you appreciate, you have archived them. New geocachers are imitating caches they have find when making they own caches. Without good examples their quality standard remains low because they suppose that is what is expected.

If I understand you correctly you archived your premium caches because they were too easy to maintain due to small number of visitors per year? I can not follow your reasoning that lead to this result. Maybe you could explain it more detail.

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15 minutes ago, arisoft said:

If I understand you correctly you archived your premium caches because they were too easy to maintain due to small number of visitors per year? I can not follow your reasoning that lead to this result. Maybe you could explain it more detail.

 

I removed the PMO status to allow more people access, but many of my listings were 5/5 DT rated in remote locations and just no longer being attempted.

I'm just no longer interested in being a cache owner, so I removed them from the site and picked up the containers. That is the example I set, as a responsible geocacher and not just follow the normal and leave my junk for others to deal with in the future. 

But please consider that 9-10 years ago I was a very avid and active geocacher placing my version of history caches in historic locations and working with State Parks in the area with their geocaching policies and programs to promote this game. B) 

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16 minutes ago, arisoft said:

^ This is the reason.

Instead of making more caches you appreciate, you have archived them. New geocachers are imitating caches they have find when making they own caches. Without good examples their quality standard remains low because they suppose that is what is expected.

 

I disagree with your reasoning.  Most new cachers are going to go after the 1.5/1.5 hides because those are suggested to go find.  The hiking caches are rarely a cachers first find, or even first 50 finds.  As mentioned on various threads, the game has changed from its roots (affiliated with hiking and getting outdoors) and evolved into something more nebulous, with urban caching and smart phones being at the forefront of what new cachers are introduced to.

You're correct in your assertion that less types of these caches mean it's less likely that newer cachers will encounter them.  However, that doesn't mean that cachers are going to place hides like that, just because they're out there.  What about those cachers who DON'T like to hike but find them in a group outing?  Just  because they're good examples of caches does NOT mean that they're going to place those types of hides.  With one exception off the top of my head, most of the new hiders in my area hide micros in an urban setting because they're easier to maintain and it's their first few hides.  Most of the hiking caches hidden in my area are hidden by cachers who have been in the game longer than 3 years, not ones who are brand new to the experience.

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2 hours ago, coachstahly said:

 I'm just fortunate enough to live in an area that has thousands of caches to choose from, and basic members have lots of opportunities without very many limits available to them, without having to revert to a premium membership to be able to find more caches.

 

Take a look at Kingsport, Tennessee. I'm just across the State line in Virginia. Let me know what you think. The best of the best are PMO, and I know that from finding many of them. Best locations, most interesting, boat access only, ect. 

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15 minutes ago, Manville Possum said:

I removed the PMO status to allow more people access, but many of my listings were 5/5 DT rated in remote locations and just no longer being attempted.

Now I fully understand why there was so small number of visitors. I think that you never expected great popularity.

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16 minutes ago, arisoft said:

Now I fully understand why there was so small number of visitors. I think that you never expected great popularity.

 

I chose quality over quantity and brought people to interesting locations that they would normally not know about otherwise. I still have an awesome Wherigo in a State Park, but it gets few actual visits too. 

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18 minutes ago, coachstahly said:

I disagree with your reasoning.  Most new cachers are going to go after the 1.5/1.5 hides because those are suggested to go find.  The hiking caches are rarely a cachers first find, or even first 50 finds.  As mentioned on various threads, the game has changed from its roots (affiliated with hiking and getting outdoors) and evolved into something more nebulous, with urban caching and smart phones being at the forefront of what new cachers are introduced to.

I can understand your reasoning but it is not full explanation. It is just one limited view to the game but it is true in that context. There are different players and as a cache owner you can please only some players. Making urban micro definitely pleases some geocachers and it is ok. I can walk past a cache I do not care but newcomers will see the game in a different view. The may see only urban micros spread all over the map and after few weeks they will find a better hobby.

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13 minutes ago, arisoft said:

I can understand your reasoning but it is not full explanation. It is just one limited view to the game but it is true in that context. There are different players and as a cache owner you can please only some players. Making urban micro definitely pleases some geocachers and it is ok. I can walk past a cache I do not care but newcomers will see the game in a different view. The may see only urban micros spread all over the map and after few weeks they will find a better hobby.

Just as your explanation is not full either.  It is just one limited view to the game but it is true in that context.  See.  It works both ways.

Geocaching has a variety of options for every cacher.  The same applies for hiders as well.  It's just that most newer players get introduced to the game via a smartphone rather than a GPS so traditionally will cache in an area that has good service and is close to home.  That usually doesn't apply to rural hides, but rather urban and/or suburban hides.

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31 minutes ago, coachstahly said:

 As mentioned on various threads, the game has changed from its roots (affiliated with hiking and getting outdoors) and evolved into something more nebulous, with urban caching and smart phones being at the forefront of what new cachers are introduced to.

You're correct in your assertion that less types of these caches mean it's less likely that newer cachers will encounter them.  However, that doesn't mean that cachers are going to place hides like that, just because they're out there.  What about those cachers who DON'T like to hike but find them in a group outing?  

 

The group cachers around here travel in a pack and post canned logs. That was just another turn off seeing a canned find about how they replaced the log and containers along their trips, and the fact that it was my EarthCache made it worse. That cache type was the first that I archived. :)

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34 minutes ago, Manville Possum said:

 

Take a look at Kingsport, Tennessee. I'm just across the State line in Virginia. Let me know what you think. The best of the best are PMO, and I know that from finding many of them. Best locations, most interesting, boat access only, ect. 

I used https://coord.info/GCJ3GX as my starting point, then selected all nearby caches and 5,514 showed up.  Without knowing the area very well, I opted to go to the favorites route.  Of the top 100 FP caches, 32 are PMO and 68 are not.  Of the top 20, only 3 are PMO.  Granted, this is a small sample size, and I have no inclination to go any deeper, but it seems that a basic member can still find some well liked caches.  Will they run out at some point?  Obviously, but that's the case anywhere you go.

 

My area has a higher percentage of FP caches that are premium, but it's still under 50%.  A big chunk of those are gadget caches along a rural stretch of a state highway that has two small population centers at either end.  Not exactly an area that will garner a lot of new cachers.

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26 minutes ago, Manville Possum said:

 

The group cachers around here travel in a pack and post canned logs. That was just another turn off seeing a canned find about how they replaced the log and containers along their trips, and the fact that it was my EarthCache made it worse. That cache type was the first that I archived. :)

I see that as a different issue though.  That's not PMO related, but rather the advent of what Lone.R likes to call the PT mentality, which draws both basic and premium members.  I don't do it, most of my caches aren't going to make a PT/group outing list because they're going to take too long to do or are a higher D/T, and most of my hides aren't really in an area that lends itself to a numbers run.  Occasionally I'll get the canned response, but it doesn't really bother me that much.

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16 minutes ago, coachstahly said:

I see that as a different issue though.  That's not PMO related, but rather the advent of what Lone.R likes to call the PT mentality, which draws both basic and premium members. .

 

Actually, I don't recall seeing basic members with the PT mentality. You made a good point. :) I'm just not seeing new players joining in my area, not ones that last anyway. ;)

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17 minutes ago, Manville Possum said:

 

Actually, I don't recall seeing basic members with the PT mentality. You made a good point. :) I'm just not seeing new players joining in my area, not ones that last anyway. ;)

You're not the only one.  Newer cachers in my area rarely stick around as well.  Even a lot of the cachers that started up when I did in 2010 (probably the high point of caching in my area) are no longer actively involved.

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I never really understood PMO caches when I first joined, although I suppose I was just the person these caches were meant to be repelling. At this point though, I feel as though the mobile app defeats the purpose of the PMO cache entirely. The primary (and perhaps only) reason that someone would limit their cache to paying members only is to block interference from the less experienced. Now the less experienced in this day and age are likely all using their smartphones and therefore the official mobile geocaching app. The official app only allows new users to access traditional caches with a D/T rating less than or equal to 2/2. Therefore, the only caches that would be noticeably impacted by being PMO caches are those in this subset of traditionals with low D/T ratings. Chances are if you've put out a very easy cache though, your intention was for many people to search for it. I can't imagine someone placing a 1/1 in a populated area that they thought would require very little maintenance. So what is the purpose of the PMO now? It is very likely that a non-paying user who bypasses the restrictions of the mobile app by using a costly GPS unit or 3rd party caching app already has the experience required to be a diligent cache finder (perhaps more so than the average premium member).

Edited by TheLimeCat
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14 hours ago, TheLimeCat said:

 So what is the purpose of the PMO now? 

I'll give you an example of why I have a set of 6 caches in a series set as PMO.  The first 5 are listed as traditional caches and each one can be logged as a traditional find.  However, if they want to play the game I've created to be able to log #6, they have to do a little extra leg work.  Game #1 involves a 5 lb bag of assorted dice (25-30$), a small lock n lock (price varies), and a larger lock n lock to help keep the dice from getting really messed up - 30$.  Game 2 involves a double 12 domino set  with another container within a container - 25$.  Game 3 is 5 decks of cards and a container - 15$ .  Game 4 involves bingo balls, a container to hold them (and dispense them one at a time), and a larger container - 20$.  Game 5 involves Scrabble tiles and a container to hold them - 5$.  The final involves something else I had to piece together via eBay over a month of bidding (and enough for a duplicate) - 30$.  125$ for the series, plus extra for stages that go MIA, when cachers don't read the cache page and take the game pieces, or when it might get muggled.  I've replaced #2 2 times over the last 7 years, #3 (thankfully my cheapest) 4 times, #5 one time, and the final once due to muggles.

Despite all the words being right there in the description (and in the cache) about not taking the pieces as swag, # 2 lost some dominoes and had to be replaced.  That was with the cache being PMO.  As relatively easy hides in a suburban area, but in areas that are not particularly high traffic, I'm certain they'd get hit by basic members frequently, who might not read the cache page entirely and take the game pieces for swag, thereby ruining the game part of this series for anyone going after it, and a constant maintenance headache, not to mention a high cost to maintain the series as intended.  While it certainly limits basic access, it's more due to a cost related issue rather than an, "I don't want basic members going after these caches." mentality.  Had they just been regular caches with game pieces for swag, I would have made them open to all and then just not replaced the swag with the game pieces, once they ran out.

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1 hour ago, coachstahly said:

I'll give you an example of why I have a set of 6 caches in a series set as PMO.  

 

I totally understand your logic and I've been put in the position of re-purchasing costly materials before, but the point I was trying to make in my original post is that basic members likely don't have access to your caches regardless of whether or not they are PMO caches. The mobile app restricts access to anything with a D/T above 2/2 and anything that isn't a traditional. I'm willing to make an educated guess and say that most basic members tend to be using the official mobile app. Those who are using a GPS unit or 3rd party app are just generally more experienced and likely wouldn't pose a problem anyway. What I'm trying to say is that the system already does most of the work of filtering out beginners for you. 

Edited by TheLimeCat
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2 hours ago, coachstahly said:

I'll give you an example of why I have a set of 6 caches in a series set as PMO.  

 -snip -

Despite all the words being right there in the description (and in the cache) about not taking the pieces as swag, # 2 lost some dominoes and had to be replaced.  That was with the cache being PMO.  

Didn't TheLimeCat's question sorta make sense now?     :)

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48 minutes ago, TheLimeCat said:

I totally understand your logic and I've been put in the position of re-purchasing costly materials before, but the point I was trying to make in my original post is that basic members likely don't have access to your caches regardless of whether or not they are PMO caches. The mobile app restricts access to anything with a D/T above 2/2 and anything that isn't a traditional. I'm willing to make an educated guess and say that most basic members tend to be using the official mobile app. Those who are using a GPS unit or 3rd party app are just generally more experienced and likely wouldn't pose a problem anyway. What I'm trying to say is that the system already does most of the work of filtering out beginners for you. 

I sorta agree, though I thought the official apps limited basic members to 1.5/1.5 , making their options of available-to-them caches a little lower.   Has that changed?

Most hides we had issues with were lower D/T  and the free "official" app.  Placing others, we made sure to raise the D/T.  We knew that long-time basic members using GPSrs wouldn't have a problem,  but those app kids who may not have even read the basics were no longer able to access.  The few problems later turned out to be new members using third-party apps.   :)

When I've asked developers about their apps, all said, "This is a limitation of/ limited by the geocaching.com API",  two said, "... does not allow basic users to access advanced or premium caches, and only Traditional cache types"  and we now know that's not so.  I'm not a gizmo guy... Duh ... I thought that the "official" app uses the API, so how are third-party sites different?   Surprised if COs having issues aren't leaving emails with those developers asking why too.   ;)

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I'm pretty sure the 1.5/1.5 limit for non-premium members is applied only by the Groundspeak app.  3rd party apps don't have that limitation, and can even show you 5/5s assuming they're not PMO.

Groundspeak could remove that limitation on a whim, and I believe they already did just that, for a limited time, as a marketing thing.

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1 hour ago, Viajero Perdido said:

I'm pretty sure the 1.5/1.5 limit for non-premium members is applied only by the Groundspeak app.  3rd party apps don't have that limitation, and can even show you 5/5s assuming they're not PMO.

Groundspeak could remove that limitation on a whim, and I believe they already did just that, for a limited time, as a marketing thing.

They also announced a few months back that they were trialing removing that limit on caches in New Zealand with a view to doing that worldwide if it doesn't impact their bottom line too much. I've heard nothing about it since so I don't know if the trial's still continuing.

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1 hour ago, Viajero Perdido said:

I'm pretty sure the 1.5/1.5 limit for non-premium members is applied only by the Groundspeak app.  3rd party apps don't have that limitation, and can even show you 5/5s assuming they're not PMO.

Groundspeak could remove that limitation on a whim, and I believe they already did just that, for a limited time, as a marketing thing.

17 minutes ago, barefootjeff said:

They also announced a few months back that they were trialing removing that limit on caches in New Zealand with a view to doing that worldwide if it doesn't impact their bottom line too much. I've heard nothing about it since so I don't know if the trial's still continuing.

IIRC (and did),  Canada too.   

I wouldn't have minded the D/T rating limitations of third-party sites not being the same as this one, if a developer hadn't "creatively answered" a question in these forums on it. I just wouldn't place any more, rather than make caches pmo. 

 - But this remove all limitations thing, I believe, will simply make people (like me) who don't use any, or very little  of the site's functions to just go basic as well.  We remain pm to help the site still offer basic services to long-time members not able (or even simply don't need...) to be pm themselves.  Kick me in my can, and "help" ends quick...

 

 

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22 hours ago, TheLimeCat said:

I totally understand your logic and I've been put in the position of re-purchasing costly materials before, but the point I was trying to make in my original post is that basic members likely don't have access to your caches regardless of whether or not they are PMO caches. The mobile app restricts access to anything with a D/T above 2/2 and anything that isn't a traditional. 

All but one would fall within the 2/2 rating and all are traditional caches.  It's funny (to me at least) that the one that isn't within that range is also the cheapest one to replace.

Edited by coachstahly

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On 12.3.2018 at 0:23 PM, coachstahly said:

What is your suggestion on how to deal with those types of cachers then, without reverting to the PMO cache?

I thought this would be clarified in the very next sentence of the post you quoted:

 

On 11.3.2018 at 7:58 PM, Rebore said:

Like, don't hide a <self censored> 1.5/1.5 Traditional micro in an urban area.

Need more examples? Take a look at the hides of this guy.

 

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2 hours ago, Rebore said:

Need more examples? Take a look at the hides of this guy.

 

I'm sure that those caches will appeal to many people, but since I am physically incapable of tackling T4.5, cannot hike long distances and have only managed a couple of T4's with great assistance, I find that lower terrain traditionals in an urban area, P&G's and those with only a short walk are more appealing to me.

I won't discourage people from hiding caches you enjoy, so please don't discourage people from hiding caches I might enjoy.

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13 hours ago, Rebore said:

I thought this would be clarified in the very next sentence of the post you quoted:

 

Need more examples? Take a look at the hides of this guy.

 

I don't hide those types of caches so didn't see that it was relevant to MY particular situation.  With regard to my caches I've used as an example, how do I go about making them basic without having to worry about constant maintenance and/or cost related issues?

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11 hours ago, Gill & Tony said:

I'm sure that those caches will appeal to many people, but since I am physically incapable of tackling T4.5, cannot hike long distances and have only managed a couple of T4's with great assistance, I find that lower terrain traditionals in an urban area, P&G's and those with only a short walk are more appealing to me.

I won't discourage people from hiding caches you enjoy, so please don't discourage people from hiding caches I might enjoy.

I fully understand that, more than you might think. It's just that I really dislike the concept of PMO caches. I'm not trying to discourage people from hiding P&G caches, but, it's possible to hide a nice and easy to find cache that won't get muggled every second day without making it PMO in an urban area, too. You just have to put a little more thought into it.

Edited by Rebore

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I became a PM for a couple of reasons. 1. its my small token to the game/program  2. to give me access to caches that are usually a little better cared for, but not always, but to include all caches where Im searching  3. there are I times I cache with friends & some of the caches they find are PM caches. I have a blast with them & would go regardless but this way I can also log the caches I find with them.

I dont use any of the gps gimmicks I have access to or any of the other things my more gps experienced friends use. I just make my list of caches in the area where Im going & go. The cost for PM isnt such a big deal. I just have fun caching.  MW

 

 

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11 minutes ago, Mother Wolf said:

I became a PM for a couple of reasons. 1. its my small token to the game/program  2. to give me access to caches that are usually a little better cared for, but not always, but to include all caches where Im searching  3. there are I times I cache with friends & some of the caches they find are PM caches. I have a blast with them & would go regardless but this way I can also log the caches I find with them.

I dont use any of the gps gimmicks I have access to or any of the other things my more gps experienced friends use. I just make my list of caches in the area where Im going & go. The cost for PM isnt such a big deal. I just have fun caching.  MW

Yep, I kinda agree ...  But to be clear,  any basic member can log a pmo hide (though can't view it afterwards) as well,  by using one of the back-door methods (one is geocachingadmin.com ).     :)

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After all the yrs Ive been caching I just renew automatically. Then it doesnt matter where I am I can see all of the caches there. Although I do like that I could log my grandsons caches if we find a pmo cache. I felt bad he did get to do that. I will have to go back & log the few that he found. Thanks for the 'how to' on that.  MW

 

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Thanks for replies even though I disagree with most of them

Edited by aer72

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On 19/03/2018 at 10:45 AM, coachstahly said:

I don't hide those types of caches so didn't see that it was relevant to MY particular situation.  With regard to my caches I've used as an example, how do I go about making them basic without having to worry about constant maintenance and/or cost related issues?

Are you saying you cannot cope with maintenance?

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38 minutes ago, aer72 said:
On 3/19/2018 at 3:45 AM, coachstahly said:

I don't hide those types of caches so didn't see that it was relevant to MY particular situation.  With regard to my caches I've used as an example, how do I go about making them basic without having to worry about constant maintenance and/or cost related issues?

Are you saying you cannot cope with maintenance?

It sounds to me like he can cope with maintenance just fine... when the cache is PMO.

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