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Aer72

Premium member only caches

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I find it incredibly unfriendly that someone would want to make a 'premium only' cache for many reasons:

1) The hider would have less logs.
2) It limits new cachers involvement in geocaching.
3) It could keep a Tb from going to hands that could complete its goal.
4) The cache condition can not be commented on and could ruin it.
5) It stops enjoyment which is what geocaching is all about.

Edited by aer72

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I believe you will get more response in the regular Geocaching forum. This is "Off Topic" forum, where we like to delve into all other kinds of things other than caching.

You just might get some rather strange, off the wall answers here...

Shirley~

 

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3 hours ago, aer72 said:

I find it incredibly unfriendly that someone would want to make a 'premium only' cache for many reasons:

1) The hider would have less logs.
2) It limits new cachers involvement in geocaching.
3) It could keep a Tb from going to hands that could complete its goal.
4) The cache condition can not be commented on and could ruin it.
5) It stops enjoyment which is what geocaching is all about.

This is a much-debated topic, and there have been other threads, but there's no reason there can't be more discussion.  I predict a moderator will move this thread to the main forum where it will get more attention.

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4 hours ago, aer72 said:

I find it incredibly unfriendly that someone would want to make a 'premium only' cache for many reasons:

[...]

Please let your 4-H-Club leader teach you the meaning of the word "unfriendly".

Happy Learning
Hans

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4 hours ago, aer72 said:

I find it incredibly unfriendly that someone would want to make a 'premium only' cache for many reasons:

1) The hider would have less logs.
2) It limits new cachers involvement in geocaching.
3) It could keep a Tb from going to hands that could complete its goal.
4) The cache condition can not be commented on and could ruin it.
5) It stops enjoyment which is what geocaching is all about.

I've never made a cache pmo, and haven't done one for a few years now either.

1/ Some areas are fragile, and a CO may want to limit  folks access to it.  Though if that fragile, I don't understand why they'd bring anyone there... 

2/ New cachers playing for free and using the official app have a D/T rating limit for them. It's not just pmo, but those rated higher than 1.5/1.5.   If/when they're really interested in the hobby, most will either pony up for a PM, of buy a GPSr (using the site) for no D/T limits and only miss out on pmos.  Though pmo caches still won't show for a basic member using a GPSr and the site, few become pm just for pmo caches anyway... 

3/ We've noticed more issues with incorrect logging and theft since the free apps.  A pmo isn't a guarantee, but a little safer.  Most hoarders we're aware of though are/were premium members...

4/ Why can't one comment on "cache condition" ?  If you're talking about a basic member, they can't access it.  Why would you want a basic member to be able to "comment on" condition of a cache they can't access?     The same logs, including maintenance logs are done on pmos as any other cache. 

5/ Most we know cache for fun.  Some do caches that haven't been found in some time.  I like those as well as long walks/hikes and "5T" rope use. Some enjoy finding an identical cache, placed in the same spot for miles.   If some felt they're "missing out" by not being able to access pmo caches, after finding a couple, they'll soon find that their pm gives them so much more and be happy again.  :D  

 

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If you had dealt with cache pirates purposely stealing caches in the area, and costly cache replacements like I have, you'd understand the desire to place most caches as Premium Member Only.   It's amazing how much less theft is involved when the cache cannot be seen by everyone. Truly, that's why.

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And by the way, I have always been happy to share my PMO puzzles with Non PM geocachers that have established themselves, and/or disable the PMO requirement to allow them to log a find (IF they don't know the backdoor method which is much more widely available these days).

 

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I felt the same way as you.  Then we made a nice regular sized cache and placed it a popular area. I spent around $10 for the container and then about 4 hours painting it or duct taping it. Laminated custom logo's for the inside and would fill it with some good quality swagg.   The hide is just over 30 min from home with no traffic and longer most times. Swagg kept getting swapped out with junk and every month or so it would get mugged.  Then one time my car window got broken out while doing maintenance and some stuff stolen out of my car.

 After the break in I decided to move it 20 feet and make it PMO.  Now I can go a year or more without needing to check it.  I pay to park most times when I check it now so it won't get broken into. 

 I agree and make most of our hides for basic members but there are some that if I spend a lot of money and time into the hide I might make it for PMO.

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11 hours ago, aer72 said:

I find it incredibly unfriendly that someone would want to make a 'premium only' cache for many reasons

 

There are places here that historically cannot support a cache.  They're in forested areas without much underbrush, and that tend to be hangouts.  The Cache Owners wouldn't suspect anyone would even be back there, let alone steal property.  So the spot eventually becomes cacheless.  I had a nice ammo box hide in one of those places, and had to archive it.  I would find the container far from its place, and a trail of Swag as the container was dragged around.  Several times.

I came up with a plan to place a cache that might endure, but it would have to be a Swag-filled clean, dry, quality ammo box "Regular" sized cache (as a personal challenge to myself).  I hid it well (unbelievably well, I liked the hide style a lot), so that nobody ever found it by accident.  I made it high Difficulty (due to the tough find), so that "App" users who were bored and just now installed the App were not gonna see this one listed.  And I made it PMO, partly to weed out fly-by-night cachers, but mostly because I don't care what anybody thinks about that.  Go ahead and call it "unfriendly" or elitist or whatever you want.  Buh-Bye.  Because I already tried "friendly" and that did not work out. Because while certainly the entire plan is what did the trick, if it were not a PMO cache, there would be no cache there for you to complain about. B)

Edited by kunarion

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I signed up to Premium as soon as I discovered the fun of finding my first cache.  Felt I wanted to join & support an obviously committed community. Paying a modest subscription should in theory ensure a more "member of a club" mentality rather than a free for all for those who pay nothing but  take the benefit of all the hard work put in by COs & those who run & maintain this website.

 IMHO the subscription is low enough to make it affordable to the majority & high enough to encourge a sense of responsibility to the caching community.  To date I found almost 50 caches, many of them PO so in just over a month that is 50p per cache if I never search for another.  At this rate after one year I might have found a 500 - what else in life can I "buy" for maybe 5p that is so satisfying?  Each cache is different & each presents a new challenge.

How many other hobbies & pursuits provide so much interest & enjoyment for such modest outlay for unlimited access?  I see that there are backdoors to Premium access & trial membership generously offered by site moderators.  So hardly "unfriendly".

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20 minutes ago, grimpil said:

I signed up to Premium as soon as I discovered the fun of finding my first cache.  Felt I wanted to join & support an obviously committed community. Paying a modest subscription should in theory ensure a more "member of a club" mentality rather than a free for all for those who pay nothing but  take the benefit of all the hard work put in by COs & those who run & maintain this website.

 IMHO the subscription is low enough to make it affordable to the majority & high enough to encourge a sense of responsibility to the caching community.  To date I found almost 50 caches, many of them PO so in just over a month that is 50p per cache if I never search for another.  At this rate after one year I might have found a 500 - what else in life can I "buy" for maybe 5p that is so satisfying?  Each cache is different & each presents a new challenge.

How many other hobbies & pursuits provide so much interest & enjoyment for such modest outlay for unlimited access?  I see that there are backdoors to Premium access & trial membership generously offered by site moderators.  So hardly "unfriendly".

There are other benefits from a PM membership but I find it strange that a CO would want to discourage a perfectly good cacher finding their cache.

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11 hours ago, niraD said:

Okay, I'll bite. Keep in mind that I do not own (and have never owned) any PMO caches.

Not all cache owners want more logs. Some have other priorities.

It can limit the abuse some geocaches receive from new geocachers who don't understand how the game should be played.

It could keep a TB from getting muggled by new geocachers who don't understand how the game should be played.

The cache can avoid being ruined by new geocachers who don't understand how the game should be played.

It preserves enjoyment for cache owners (and cache seekers) who don't enjoy seeing caches ruined or plundered by new geocachers who don't understand how the game should be played.

Yes maybe it could keep a cache safe from a novice geocacher but I'll guessabout 19 in 20 members that aren't premium still know what they are doing and the 5 reasons I gave at the start would apply to those 19 in 20 cachers.

Edited by aer72

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You aren't going to convince me to make the one PMO cache I have non-PMO. I've got a non-PMO cache (it's a mystery cache, but very easy), and I've had non-PMO traditionals also. But there are valid reasons I made my one cache PMO.

However, SOME caches I agree with you on. A power trail of easy-find micros doesn't need to be PMO. A LPC probably doesn't need to be PMO. but I haven't encountered these types of PMO caches personally; the PMO caches I've encountered have good reason for being PMO.

And I'm tired of typing PMO, so I'll stop typing. LOL Bottom line: those that makes their caches PMO have actively decided that way, and they feel they have their valid reasons for doing so. I highly doubt anyone will change their mind because of a forum thread.

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2 hours ago, TriciaG said:

there are valid reasons I made my one cache PMO.

Yes!

I have 57 caches, only three are PMO, and two of those I adopted.  All three are very quiet, which means not only are they much less disappointing for me to maintain (ask me about the 54 other ones.  *sigh*), but when a cacher does find one, it's much less disappointing for them.  I made some caches Puzzle caches with very easy puzzles, and it has the same effect.  It deters people who "Geocache" for the purpose of muggling caches.  They aren't the type of people who work for something they desire.

I was considering un-PMOing "Boxzilla", and a local veteran cacher said "Don't do that".  So that's why it's PMO, because go find the 54 other caches, and the millions of other non-PMO caches after that, and lets not worry about what plants crave. B)

 

Edited by kunarion

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7 hours ago, aer72 said:

I'll guessabout 19 in 20 members that aren't premium still know what they are doing

It only takes 1. Or 1 in 20.

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9 hours ago, grimpil said:

How many other hobbies & pursuits provide so much interest & enjoyment for such modest outlay for unlimited access?  I see that there are backdoors to Premium access & trial membership generously offered by site moderators.  So hardly "unfriendly".

I agree, but to be clear,  the "backdoor method" you speak of is for logging, not access.  IIRC, it was designed so family members with separate accounts could log a pmo without all having to cough up the bucks (which most wouldn't do) for pm.    :)

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On 3/10/2018 at 1:23 PM, aer72 said:

I find it incredibly unfriendly that someone would want to make a 'premium only' cache for many reasons:

1) The hider would have less logs.
2) It limits new cachers involvement in geocaching.
3) It could keep a Tb from going to hands that could complete its goal.
4) The cache condition can not be commented on and could ruin it.
5) It stops enjoyment which is what geocaching is all about.

1.  My goal as a hider isn't to get more logs.  It's to provide a fun experience for cachers seeking my caches.

2.  Considering that PMO caches are in the minority (anyone have a % of PMO vs. non-PMO), there are plenty of other caches to choose from.  Add to that, the goal of the parent company is to get non-PMO members interested in joining the PMO ranks.  Consider it a dangling carrot for those that might become interested.

3.  One of my very first TBs was grabbed by a newer, non-PMO cacher in a non-PMO cache that they never logged as found and would have been their 5th find total, before they stopped geocaching. It's been relegated to the unknown location for almost 6 years.  A non-PMO TB hotel on the other side of town has a horrible track record when it comes to coins.  TBs are fine, but geocoins go missing from that hotel ALL the time.

4. I don't understand this point.

5. You still have all the other non-PMO caches available to find, so how is making a PMO cache stopping you from enjoying all the other non-PMO caches out there?

I generally make the decision to determine if it's PMO or non-PMO based on the cost, difficulty, and environmental effect of the cache in question.  I adopted quite a few of the caches I own now and they were PMO, so I can't speak to their reasons.  Of my personally owned and hidden active caches (59) 16 are PMO.  6 are part of a series that involves game pieces, which I had to buy and purchase duplicates to be safe, as well as the containers to place them in.  One is a 5/5 multi that involves water in some areas that high traffic might cause issues.  One is in a private property location (permission granted by the landowner) that wanted some guarantees of limited access rather than a field full of cachers at all times.  That cache is also a multi that involves over 35 containers (it's a choose your own adventure style multi), which cost me quite a bit to hide initially, as well as have duplicate stages ready to go, just in case.  That's 1/2 of my 16 right there.  The other 8 have their reasons as well.  Most of my hides recently have been non-PMO, but that's more a function of where they are and what they are than of cost and limiting the number of cachers due to complicated and/or difficult caches that are hard to replicate.

Edited by coachstahly
clarification
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16 minutes ago, coachstahly said:

Considering that PMO caches are in the minority (anyone have a % of PMO vs. non-PMO), there are plenty of other caches to choose from. 

You make a valid point, but I wanted to share the statistics for the OP's home area (Southern England).  As of yesterday, out of 27,023 total active caches, 7,038 are "Premium Members Only" caches.  That's 26% - which in my experience, is higher than average.  Still, however, that leaves 20,000 caches for a basic member to enjoy finding.

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9 hours ago, aer72 said:

There are other benefits from a PM membership but I find it strange that a CO would want to discourage a perfectly good cacher finding their cache.

I'm not discouraging them from finding my PMO cache; I'm discouraging those who don't know any better, even though that includes those who DO know better.  If people like my non-PMO caches and want to find my PMO caches, they're welcome to cough up the membership dues to access those particular caches, which go above and beyond the normal types of caches I have hidden, with regard to cost and the difficulty in replicating a particular hide.  Not only that, it gives cachers even more abilities and options to enjoy this activity.  It's not an exorbitantly high amount of money, so I fail to see how that is a reason someone chooses not to become a premium member.

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20 hours ago, niraD said:

It can limit the abuse some geocaches receive from new geocachers who don't understand how the game should be played.

There are other ways to make sure this doesn't happen. Like, don't hide a <self censored> 1.5/1.5 Traditional micro in an urban area. In my eyes, PMO caches are the easy way out and violate the spirit of what geocaching was meant to be, just like some other things GS focused on to make more money. There, I said it, shoot me.

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14 minutes ago, Keystone said:

You make a valid point, but I wanted to share the statistics for the OP's home area (Southern England).  As of yesterday, out of 27,023 total active caches, 7,038 are "Premium Members Only" caches.  That's 26% - which in my experience, is higher than average.  Still, however, that leaves 20,000 caches for a basic member to enjoy finding.

If those numbers were in the hundreds, I'd feel sympathy for the OP, especially if they had already found most of the non-PMO caches.  Thousands though?  If they have the ability to find 20,000, points 2 and 5 aren't valid.  They have 75% of the caches in their area to choose from.  I fail to see how that is stopping them from enjoying the game or limiting their opportunities.

 

 

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20 minutes ago, Rebore said:

There are other ways to make sure this doesn't happen. Like, don't hide a <self censored> 1.5/1.5 Traditional micro in an urban area. In my eyes, PMO caches are the easy way out and violate the spirit of what geocaching was meant to be, just like some other things GS focused on to make more money. There, I said it, shoot me.

An easy way out of what?

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57 minutes ago, Rebore said:

There are other ways to make sure this doesn't happen. Like, don't hide a <self censored> 1.5/1.5 Traditional micro in an urban area. In my eyes, PMO caches are the easy way out and violate the spirit of what geocaching was meant to be, just like some other things GS focused on to make more money. There, I said it, shoot me.

 

I think people who vandalize and steal from caches violate the spirit of what geocaching was meant to be. Making my caches PMO makes it a little harder for them.

Edited by Max and 99
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I don't care what the spirit of geocaching was meant to be.

The game evolves, and not entirely (IMHO) in a good way.  I've found some ways to retreat to an earlier style of playing, a game-within-a-game you could say.  Part of that involves going PMO.

Deal with it.

There are still roughly 2 million caches available for all to find.

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1 hour ago, coachstahly said:

An easy way out of what?

To deal with "Hey look, theres an app for that!" "cachers".

1 hour ago, Max and 99 said:

 

I think people who vandalize and steal from caches violate the spirit of what geocaching was meant to be. Making my caches PMO makes it a little harder for them.

Of course, and I know that some local cachers are glad that this option exists, because it reduced their maintainance effort significantly. However, paying 30 bucks a year doesn't make you a "better cacher".

@Viajero Perdido: I've found my way, too. PMO caches are not the reason for it.

Edited by Rebore

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For now, none of my hides are PMO since they're all higher D/T ones that don't show on the app without a premium membership, but "muggles with apps" are something of a problem around here for those with easier hides, and it only takes one who decides, maliciously or not, to keep the cache they found (taking the treasure hunt decription literally) or thinks the aim of the game is to hide it somewhere new, to spoil it for everyone else. And in an area just north of here, there were a couple of app-equipped juveniles who went on a cache-destroying rampage a year or two back until they were finally caught.

That said, I recall late last year something about HQ trialling removing the limit on the app (I think the trial was in New Zealand) and making it open slather for all cache types and D/T ratings, so if that were to happen here there'd be some of my traditionals I'd likely make PMO. The multis, puzzles and more remote traditionals I'd leave as non-PMO as they'd be less likely targets.

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1 hour ago, Viajero Perdido said:

I don't care what the spirit of geocaching was meant to be.

 

PMO is effective at excluding non paying members from joining the game, and I believe it helped in the decline in my area. Finds did pick up when I removed mine from PMO status.

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Makes me wonder if I'm not getting into geocaching for the wrong reason.

I can see both sides.

Basically the whole point of hiding a cache is to challenge people to find it.

On the other hand stealing it, destroying it, or trashing it is not part of the game.






 

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1 hour ago, garyo1954 said:

On the other hand stealing it, destroying it, or trashing it is not part of the game.

It has been part of the game for a long time. Just check when the word "muggle" was used first time. Making PMO caches is one way to avoid muggling. I have changed my traditional caches to PMO because basic members are somehow less aware of muggling.

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32 minutes ago, arisoft said:

It has been part of the game for a long time. Just check when the word "muggle" was used first time. Making PMO caches is one way to avoid muggling. I have changed my traditional caches to PMO because basic members are somehow less aware of muggling.

Completely understand . And I understand the premium part of the game.

For example I buy heart shape artificial stones and crystal pointers to put in a cache or drop off.....$70
I buy chain and/or leather strap to make the stones wearable....$45
I place the swag in a ziplock.....$3
Maybe I laser a little treasure chest to house the piece. Take 8 inches of wood (25 to 50 cents)

The time spent gathering, assembling, and putting these out is worth more than the $1.20 to $1.70 you have invested in each one.

Reading different threads has caused me to question how many, and if, I should put these in a cache. They were out for people to take, but it would disheartening to go back, find a couple scribbles in the log and everything gone, and/or the cache trashed or missing.

 





 

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I had some very unflattering things to say in response but I will limit it to this:

You do not know "what caching is all about."

"19 in 20 cachers who are not premium" do not know what they are doing. This becomes more apparent every year.

It was actually entitled attitudes like yours that moved me towards making all my caches PMO's some years ago. 

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5 hours ago, arisoft said:
6 hours ago, garyo1954 said:

On the other hand stealing it, destroying it, or trashing it is not part of the game.

It has been part of the game for a long time. Just check when the word "muggle" was used first time.

To me, this is kinda like saying "Knocking the board off the table and scattering the pieces across the floor is part of the game of chess."

Yes, if you play chess, you may encounter this behavior, depending on who you play with. But I have a hard time calling it "part of the game".

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5 hours ago, garyo1954 said:

Reading different threads has caused me to question how many, and if, I should put these in a cache. They were out for people to take, but it would disheartening to go back, find a couple scribbles in the log and everything gone, and/or the cache trashed or missing.

 

You could stick to placing only small items like the engraved hearts.  The nice boxes could be given as door prizes at Events (remember you can make an Event convenient to yourself if you can't travel), or given to friends as part of your own Milestone celebrations.  I also imagined having engraved tracking numbers so each box is "Trackable", and people would go nuts for those.  Use tracking numbers from inexpensive TBs you buy in bulk, and the box comes with the tag, too (unactivated, of course).  That plan may be too expensive, but I still think it would be pretty cool :cute:.  Anyway, it's more fun to me to at least know who gets the item and that they appreciate it.  If you leave it in a cache, it simply falls out of this dimension.  You don't know if anyone took it (unless you check the cache), if they like it, and you'll almost never see a log mentioning it at all.

 

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22 minutes ago, kunarion said:

 

You could stick to placing only small items like the engraved hearts.  The nice boxes could be given as door prizes at Events (remember you can make an Event convenient to yourself if you can't travel), or given to friends as part of your own Milestone celebrations.  I also imagined having engraved tracking numbers so each box is "Trackable", and people would go nuts for those.  Use tracking numbers from inexpensive TBs you buy in bulk, and the box comes with the tag, too (unactivated, of course).  That plan may be too expensive, but I still think it would be pretty cool :cute:.  Anyway, it's more fun to me to at least know who gets the item and that they appreciate it.  If you leave it in a cache, it simply falls out of this dimension.  You don't know if anyone took it (unless you check the cache), if they like it, and you'll almost never see a log mentioning it at all.

 

I like the idea of the trackable. Yes, I love to hear when someone has found one of my treasure chests. It makes it the work part worth it.

Looking at the order page 50 tracking codes with travel bug for $150 seems about the same as I spend to make 100 boxes with necklace, bracelet, anklet and/or a token engraved with the city, county and state. Its a good thought. I'd much rather, as you say, engrave the code on the box and make it the trackable.

Events would be my second choice. But when I tried to go back to work, three stressful weeks proved that no longer possible. 

I like the trackable idea very much. I need to think about this.

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13 minutes ago, garyo1954 said:

I like the trackable idea very much. I need to think about this.

 

Don't be surprised if the recipients never let them go. :laughing:

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1 hour ago, kunarion said:

...Anyway, it's more fun to me to at least know who gets the item and that they appreciate it.  If you leave it in a cache, it simply falls out of this dimension.  You don't know if anyone took it (unless you check the cache), if they like it, and you'll almost never see a log mentioning it at all.

I agree.  Odd isn't it?  Rare to see mention of swaps or trackables taken anymore.  Doesn't matter if they're basic or pm cachers either.    Those logs aren't limited to "regular" caches as well ...

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1 hour ago, kunarion said:
1 hour ago, garyo1954 said:

I like the trackable idea very much. I need to think about this.

Don't be surprised if the recipients never let them go. :laughing:

I have been given geocoins that had ID numbers, but that were specifically not trackable because the creator/giver wanted us to keep them, and not for us to sent them traveling.

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3 hours ago, niraD said:

To me, this is kinda like saying "Knocking the board off the table and scattering the pieces across the floor is part of the game of chess."

Yes, if you play chess, you may encounter this behavior, depending on who you play with. But I have a hard time calling it "part of the game".

When you have a special word for "scattering the pieces across the floor" like you have word "checkmate" then it is definitely part of the game. In the game of chess you try to avoid "checkmate" and in the game of geocaching you try to avoid "muggles". The price of failure is the destruction of the cache.

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38 minutes ago, niraD said:

I have been given geocoins that had ID numbers, but that were specifically not trackable because the creator/giver wanted us to keep them, and not for us to sent them traveling.

The bulk rate is 50 at $1.50 each. My head-calculator didn't register that dot between the 1 and 5. That would be $75 for 50. My bad.

NiraD an ID number sounds great. Are they the same as pathtags?

"Pathtags Definition:
A pathtag is a small (1″ diameter) coin that is left as signature items by some geocachers. The design on the face of the coin is customized, while the other side holds a generic design and a serial number. They’re often mistaken for geocoins, but there are three main differences between geocoins and pathtags. The most important difference is that pathtags have nothing to do with Groundspeak and are not trackable at geocaching.com. Another difference is that the tags are not individually trackable – all tags of the same design have the same serial number. While it is possible to track where the tags were logged, it is not possible to track the path of an individual tag. Finally, tags are usually meant to be kept by the finder, instead of being moved like activated geocoins."

First I have seen that definition. Found it searching for info on trackables. I suppose it wouldn't have to be a coin. 

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15 hours ago, Rebore said:

To deal with "Hey look, theres an app for that!" "cachers".

 

What is your suggestion on how to deal with those types of cachers then, without reverting to the PMO cache?

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15 hours ago, Manville Possum said:

 

PMO is effective at excluding non paying members from joining the game, and I believe it helped in the decline in my area. Finds did pick up when I removed mine from PMO status.

Joining the game is free.  PMO does NOT prevent that from happening, nor does it exclude them from playing.  You can't be a member AND excluded from membership.  What it does do is exclude those caches from availability to non-paying members.  As Keystone mentioned in his reply to mine, the OP has a 26% PMO rate in their area.  If I had to guess, my area is maybe in the same ballpark or a bit lower.  Only 1 out of 4 caches are PMO. meaning the large majority of caches (3 out of 4) are there to be found by a non paying member.  In an area with not very many caches, that's certainly an issue, but in an area like the OPs (and mine), it's not nearly the same issue, with thousands of caches available to choose from.

Edited by coachstahly
typo

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Let me clarify, I meant PMO excludes non-paying members from joining the game to seek PMO caches, and when I removed my listings from PMO status I saw an influx of more new players that were basic members. 

My belief is with more PMO listings there is less to offer for basic members and makes the game less attractive. Just my view as a former cache owner that supported the game with PMO listings in the hundreds. 

Edited by Manville Possum
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1 hour ago, coachstahly said:

Joining the game is free.  PMO does NOT prevent that from happening, nor does it exclude them from playing.  You can't be a member AND excluded from membership.  What it does do is exclude those caches from availability to non-paying members.  As Keystone mentioned in his reply to mine, the OP has a 26% PMO rate in their area.  If I had to guess, my area is maybe in the same ballpark or a bit lower.  Only 1 out of 4 caches are PMO. meaning the large majority of caches (3 out of 4) are there to be found by a non paying member.  In an area with not very many caches, that's certainly an issue, but in an area like the OPs (and mine), it's not nearly the same issue, with thousands of caches available to choose from.

And in an area with not very many caches, someone may just have to travel a little further to play the game.   For those that don't want to drive a few miles to find a cache, the existence of a few PMO caches in the area just might provide the incentive for a basic member becoming a premium member.

BTW, I read the message that you responded to and your response sure looked to me as if you had read it as well, and that your response was an accurate rebuttal.  

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10 hours ago, garyo1954 said:
10 hours ago, niraD said:

I have been given geocoins that had ID numbers, but that were specifically not trackable because the creator/giver wanted us to keep them, and not for us to sent them traveling.

NiraD an ID number sounds great. Are they the same as pathtags?

No. These are nice, well-made geocoins that were created for a specific event. But there is no "trackable at blah blah blah" message, and the unique serial number on each geocoin is not trackable anywhere.

(For those familiar with Venona's ACTIVITIES, I am referring to the Order of Venona coins that were presented to those of us who earned the Order of Venona.)

I have also received other non-trackable geocoins that were basically personal signature items, and that had no tracking codes or serial numbers. And I have received trackable geocoins that were trackable at third-party sites (which unfortunately no longer exist), which were basically really nice personal signature items that were trackable, but not trackable on the geocaching.com site.

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38 minutes ago, niraD said:

No. These are nice, well-made geocoins that were created for a specific event. But there is no "trackable at blah blah blah" message, and the unique serial number on each geocoin is not trackable anywhere.

(For those familiar with Venona's ACTIVITIES, I am referring to the Order of Venona coins that were presented to those of us who earned the Order of Venona.)

I have also received other non-trackable geocoins that were basically personal signature items, and that had no tracking codes or serial numbers. And I have received trackable geocoins that were trackable at third-party sites (which unfortunately no longer exist), which were basically really nice personal signature items that were trackable, but not trackable on the geocaching.com site.

Thank you!

Not trying to make excuses for my ignorance but there are so many categories of everything, its hard to get a solid understanding of what what is and what what is not.

The more info I get here, the more I read, the more some things make sense and less sense for others. I'm not sure what the decline of other sites means. Then there is the site offering free tracking labels but the tracking can only be done on that site, and the guy who claims if tracking were in the hands of open source anything could be tracked, and the threads here asking why can't tracking be the same as the whereisgeorge site.

Not matter how its done, it depend on the participation of the "players." Last cache I found, supposedly had a trackable. It was not there. It still shows as being there. So either someone doesn't know they have a trackable, or they don't understand how and what to do with it. Without their input even the trackable can't be tracked.

Seems there are three sides in this endeavor. Those making money, those out just to have fun, and those competing to rack up numbers.

 

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13 hours ago, kunarion said:

 

Don't be surprised if the recipients never let them go. :laughing:

The more I read, the more I'm getting turned off at the idea of tracking.

Its not the expense.
The two things I don't agree with is:

1. The requirement of approving the design.
A. In my case the design might be different, or might be a different item from time to time.
2. The requirement of adding the registered trademark.
A. That indicates the item is their property and their design.
3. You are paying them to advertise for them.

In the real world that's not the way design or advertising works. No architectural firm is going to pay you to allow them to design your home and no newspaper, radio or TV station is going to pay you to mention your business.

While I understand they are selling unique tracking numbers, (that can only be tracked through the site), its a bit absurd to give control of the design and pay them to advertise the site. People who use the site for geocaching (and who doesn't) would not need to be told what to do with the trackable. 

The bottom line comes to: If you're buying something, it belongs to you and what you do with it is no ones business. (That's what buying entitles.)
Producing your own items doesn't cost the seller any time or money in design or production fees.
And the tracking doesn't work without the "players" input, so there is no administration fees, upkeep fees, replacement fees, and no guarantee the numbers will ever be seen once they leave your possession.

That sort of puts me on the same team with the guy complaining about premium caches not showing up for basic members.....:rolleyes:




 

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2 hours ago, garyo1954 said:

The more I read, the more I'm getting turned off at the idea of tracking.

Its not the expense.
The two things I don't agree with is:

1. The requirement of approving the design.
A. In my case the design might be different, or might be a different item from time to time.
2. The requirement of adding the registered trademark.
A. That indicates the item is their property and their design.
3. You are paying them to advertise for them.

In the real world that's not the way design or advertising works. No architectural firm is going to pay you to allow them to design your home and no newspaper, radio or TV station is going to pay you to mention your business.

While I understand they are selling unique tracking numbers, (that can only be tracked through the site), its a bit absurd to give control of the design and pay them to advertise the site. People who use the site for geocaching (and who doesn't) would not need to be told what to do with the trackable. 

The bottom line comes to: If you're buying something, it belongs to you and what you do with it is no ones business. (That's what buying entitles.)
Producing your own items doesn't cost the seller any time or money in design or production fees.
And the tracking doesn't work without the "players" input, so there is no administration fees, upkeep fees, replacement fees, and no guarantee the numbers will ever be seen once they leave your possession.

That sort of puts me on the same team with the guy complaining about premium caches not showing up for basic members.....:rolleyes:
 

 

The fees and approval process apply only to submissions of new custom Geocoins.

Like you, I'd rather be able to use a tracking number on a project or two, not a whole bunch of the same object.  So that's why I use "Travel Bug" dogtags or other tags or coins I've bought for the purpose.  You may pretty much use the tracking number as you like, such as marking it on an object, and design its page to match.  If it's for a gift, I'd also provide the coin or tag that the tracking number is from.

AND you could invent your own serialization system.  In my profile you see "kunarion's cache zippers", each with a unique serial number.  Each run has a new prefix, like Z001, Z002, etc.  But as they are 4-digit numbers, they can't be Official Geocaching Tracking numbers, so maybe they aren't confused for tracking numbers.  This is my own personal "tracking" system.  There are no "Groundspeak" hoops to jump through.  Just a idea.

Edited by kunarion
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1 hour ago, garyo1954 said:

The two things I don't agree with is:

1. The requirement of approving the design.
A. In my case the design might be different, or might be a different item from time to time.
2. The requirement of adding the registered trademark.
A. That indicates the item is their property and their design.
3. You are paying them to advertise for them.

1/ Okay,  let's say I want a new coin design with a "full monty" pose front and back.  Literally.  My next will be of a crazy, heel-clicking  little-mustached  guy, and an odd, almost cult fan-like design on the back.  That okay with you?  Family friendly?   I'd like the site to at least give 'em a look thanks...

2/ There used to be a few more competing location games (still a couple...).  Also a couple sites that thought they'd create their own, competing  trackables business, using this site's members to do it.   Do you think that's fair?  Trackables that are trackable on this site need a way that allows others in this hobby to identify  it as  "one of ours" Having the Geocaching.com logo with "Trackable at geocaching.com" usually does that.  We still see some here who "can't log it", to find it's another game, or simply a signature item. 

This site's actually a lot easier on things now it seems (to me) , as discussing a competing trading / "trackable" coin-like object you mentioned earlier would have ended this thread a while ago.  ;)

3/ I have an old navy sweatshirt on, over my under armor tee.  Wranglers over my duluth boxers. Under armor Siberia boots over smartwool socks. How do I know?  Everything these days has a print, tag, alligator emblem ... ads on them.  Cabelas has their name on pretty-much everything you buy. This doesn't mean I favor or represent any over another.  They just came with them.  Is there any sports team item that doesn't have a logo on it?  You're paying them for their ad?

Agree with kunarion, craft-type items are probably best served by TB codes. Still should state "trackable on geocaching .com", or it's likely gonna be considered swag.   :)

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