Can CO have too many caches?

[Davros Von Skaro]

I have been unable to find any info on this topic. First I will give the situation. In northern Indiana and southern Michigan there is a new trail being made. In the last month or 2 a CO has put out nearly 300 caches along this route sometimes before a section was even finished. At first I thought it was geoart but that does not appear to be the case. I do not plan to place a cache there nor do intend to look for any of these as I'm not in it for bulk easy finds to raise my "score". This seems like it could be contentious topic and that is not my intent but this is starting to really put me off on geocaching. I am actually considering quitting the game and orphaning my own caches. My questions are: 1. Is there an etiquette to this in the geo community? 2. What would other cachers do to place a cache there?  3. How many caches can a CO realistically take care of properly? (seems many like these are placed and abandoned immediately) 4. How do I stop the 20+ email notifications a day for a New Cache on these yet still get them for others in the area? 5. What are your suggestions/insights?

[+L0ne.R]

1 hour ago, Davros Von Skaro said:

but this is starting to really put me off on geocaching

The PT behavior has put me off geocaching, both as a finder and an owner. 

 

 

[+The A-Team]

1 hour ago, Davros Von Skaro said:

I do not plan to place a cache there nor do intend to look for any of these as I'm not in it for bulk easy finds to raise my "score". ... I am actually considering quitting the game and orphaning my own caches.

I'm curious why you would consider quitting the game just because someone hid a bunch of caches along a trail. You already said you weren't planning on hiding any caches there, so what part of it do you feel has impacted you to the extent that you would consider walking away? I would genuinely like to know.

Quote

1. Is there an etiquette to this in the geo community?

The answer to this will probably vary depending on the region and community. Around here, we don't have a lot of places where you could do something like this simply due to the terrain and type of environment. In general, cachers around here don't hide more caches than they can maintain, with the odd and expected exceptions.

Quote

2. What would other cachers do to place a cache there?

They could talk to the CO and see if they could cooperate on hiding caches along the trail. If they only wanted to hide a cache or two, they could contact the CO and see if they can leave a few spots open.

Quote

3. How many caches can a CO realistically take care of properly? (seems many like these are placed and abandoned immediately)

This varies depending on the person and region, so there isn't a way to give a specific number. In a desert environment, a retired cacher could realistically hide a huge number of caches that require little to no maintenance, and would have enough time to maintain the ones that do. In an environment that has snow on the ground for half a year, a working cacher could realistically hide and maintain a smaller number of caches that would require more maintenance and have less time to do so. There are many other factors at play, too.

Quote

4. How do I stop the 20+ email notifications a day for a New Cache on these yet still get them for others in the area?

If these caches are all being hidden by one CO, you could set up a filter on your email to filter out emails that contain the string "Created by: [insert CO name here]", which would be present on any of the publication emails for that CO's caches. If the caches are all part of a series with a common element in the name, you could filter on that too.

Quote

5. What are your suggestions/insights?

My suggestion is to not get too worked up about what others are doing. Everyone caches for different reasons and in different ways. Some like to hide lots of caches and find few, some hide few and find lots, and many other combinations in between. As long as someone else's play doesn't directly affect you, try not to let it get to you.

[+L0ne.R]

1 hour ago, Davros Von Skaro said:

I am actually considering quitting the game and orphaning my own caches.

I realize you're angry and orphaning your caches may seem like sticking it to Groundspeak for allowing this to happen, but they won't notice. In fact, those numbers-addicted cachers will be happy to still have a listing to get another smiley from. The cache doesn't matter. It will rot and get replaced by a geo-litter cache (aka throwdown) and your trailname will be associated with the degradation of the game. I suggest you pick up your caches and archive them, then leave a message on your archival note telling everyone why you're fed up. 

[+L0ne.R]

19 minutes ago, The A-Team said:

They could talk to the CO and see if they could cooperate on hiding caches along the trail. If they only wanted to hide a cache or two, they could contact the CO and see if they can leave a few spots open.

Oh geez, I would never do this. The OP would end up with cut n paste logs thanking the owner of the PT for their caches.

In fact, I removed my cache once I discovered that the new trail I had placed it on already had been saturated with pill bottles. I stumbled upon Cotton Trail #34 pill bottle in a stump (it hadn't been published yet).

Edited February 20, 2018 by L0ne.R

[Blue Square Thing]

1 hour ago, Davros Von Skaro said:

This seems like it could be contentious topic and that is not my intent but this is starting to really put me off on geocaching. I am actually considering quitting the game and orphaning my own caches.

I understand exactly how you feel and, in some ways, I feel the same way. I recognise a similar pattern of behaviour from someone close to where I'm based. I certainly agree that there comes point where it's impossible for a cache owner to maintain caches - I just saw some in this part of the world archived in less than a fortnight because of maintenance issues.

I've resolved to simply ignore their caches and to carry on doing what I like to do - finding decent caches placed in interesting places and hiding (hopefully) well thought out caches in interesting places. That's not what everyone wants to do, I know, but I'm happy with that - the only way I can influence other people's behaviour is by trying to set the right sort of example. Enjoy what you enjoy and ignore what you dislike - I'm sure there must be plenty of cool places that geocaching can take you!

[+L0ne.R]

20 minutes ago, Blue Square Thing said:

I've resolved to simply ignore their caches and to carry on doing what I like to do - finding decent caches placed in interesting places and hiding (hopefully) well thought out caches in interesting places.

That's the part I'm finding harder and harder to do. It requires a lot of scouring of the database. I've tried being somewhere pleasant and opening up the app to see what's nearby. I read through 10 listings and get fed up. 5/10 are micros - skip it, I prefer a fuller caching experience; 4/10 are smalls but when I read through the logs and look through the photos 3 of the 4 smalls are actually micros: magnetic key holders, diabetes canisters, or pill bottles. 8/10 have comments like 'wet' 'damp' 'moldy' 'soggy' 'needs TLC'.

Exhausting.

Edited February 20, 2018 by L0ne.R

[Blue Square Thing]

12 minutes ago, L0ne.R said:

That's the part I'm finding harder and harder to do. It requires a lot of scouring of the database. I've tried being somewhere pleasant and opening up the app to see what's nearby. I read through 10 listings and get fed up. 5/10 are micros - skip it, I prefer a fuller caching experience; 4/10 are smalls but when I read through the logs and look through the photos 3 of the 4 smalls are actually micros: magnetic key holders, diabetes canisters, or pill bottles. 8/10 have comments like 'wet' 'damp' 'moldy' 'soggy' 'needs TLC'.

Exhausting.

I recognise that as well - people who have found film canisters rated as "small" and so hide their own film canisters as "small". If I'm lucky the picture or hint gives it away. I can only imagine they must be quite surprised to find my 900ml containers also rated as small. :-)

I quite enjoy using the map and looking through caches, but then I don't find so many (and have resolved to find less this year...). And I like maps.

[+L0ne.R]

20 minutes ago, Blue Square Thing said:

I recognise that as well - people who have found film canisters rated as "small" and so hide their own film canisters as "small". If I'm lucky the picture or hint gives it away. I can only imagine they must be quite surprised to find my 900ml containers also rated as small. :-)

I blame a large part of the problem on Groundspeak for not making the submission page more explicit about size and volumes.

I've also seen many caches listed as small, but the description clearly says film canister. I'm guessing the reviewers are instructed to not require submitters to change the cache size to reflect the actual container.

[+cerberus1]

Are these new caches in line, or close enough to affect yours?  If not, I don't see why you'd wanna take your ball and go home.

You say you don't intend to hide there or look for them either, so curious what on Earth this has to do with you.  Move on.  Worrying about things you can't change isn't gonna keep you healthy.  

[+hzoi]

2 hours ago, Davros Von Skaro said:

I do not plan to place a cache there nor do intend to look for any of these as I'm not in it for bulk easy finds to raise my "score".

OK.  So the only two acceptable outcomes here are for you to either enforce your world view on other geocachers, or quit the game? 

I echo cerebus1's sentiment and offer support of a third option:

57 minutes ago, cerberus1 said:

Move on.  Worrying about things you can't change isn't gonna keep you healthy.

Alternatively, if you can't do that, then either approach the CO directly.  Unless the CO comes here, how are they to know what your feelings on the subject are?  I imagine they foolishly assumed that hiding geocaches for the benefit of other cachers in the area was a good thing.  If you approach them and respectfully voice your side, perhaps they can accommodate.

If neither of those work, then perhaps the alternative to the alternative is to take your ball (read: four geocaches) and go home.  I'd hate to see it come to that, but it's your world.

[+cerberus1]

1 hour ago, L0ne.R said:

I blame a large part of the problem on Groundspeak for not making the submission page more explicit about size and volumes.

I've also seen many caches listed as small, but the description clearly says film canister. I'm guessing the reviewers are instructed to not require submitters to change the cache size to reflect the actual container.

I believe locals have more to do with the issue than the site.  Monkey see/do.  The older cachers know better...

We've seen a couple mention the container as well, and figure "pill bottle" simply wasn't on the cache page when submitted.  Unless they've been "fooled" before, I wouldn't think many Reviewers have the time to go back to caches published, looking for changes.

I mention "looking for a small, found a pill bottle", or "'Small' container too small for a trackable" on caches we've found this on.  A Reviewer may see that if another issue arises, and maybe they'll tack that on too if allowed. 

[Blue Square Thing]

1 hour ago, L0ne.R said:

I blame a large part of the problem on Groundspeak for not making the submission page more explicit about size and volumes.

I'm hoping the new cache submission page might improve things a little - there are fairly specific descriptions for sizes now. But I'll not hold my breath.

[+barefootjeff]

23 minutes ago, Blue Square Thing said:

I'm hoping the new cache submission page might improve things a little - there are fairly specific descriptions for sizes now. But I'll not hold my breath.

I used the new submission page just last week and, unless I missed something, the size descriptions were still vague like "about the size of an apple". Since the Help Centre actually defines the size ranges, I don't understand why the cache submission page can't display the same information instead of being dumbed down to apples and shoe boxes.

[+L0ne.R]

29 minutes ago, Blue Square Thing said:

I'm hoping the new cache submission page might improve things a little - there are fairly specific descriptions for sizes now. But I'll not hold my breath.

When will the new cache submission page be up? The current one shows 4 images but I see no specifics about ranges and volumes. I don't see a link to more information about sizes either. Hopefully if they create a new submission page they will have volume information right on the page...not hidden in a link. 

 

 

[+L0ne.R]

2 hours ago, hzoi said:

5 hours ago, Davros Von Skaro said:

I do not plan to place a cache there nor do intend to look for any of these as I'm not in it for bulk easy finds to raise my "score".

OK.  So the only two acceptable outcomes here are for you to either enforce your world view on other geocachers, or quit the game? 

I think what DVS might mean is now that the trail is saturated with pill bottles he does not intend to use that trail for geocaching, even if the opportunity arises. Hopefully DVS will come back and confirm.

That's how I feel when I see a PT saturated trail. That trail IMO has been ruined. It's not that I mind a saturated trail, as long as it grows organically with a variety of cache owners, hiding styles, cache containers, placed various distances apart. I can pick and choose the caches along such a trail that suits me. When it's saturated with abandoned, numbers-style, cheap, junk containers with the same write-up for each and log after log of TFTC, then none of them suit me. The PT behavior is selfish and boring. 

Edited February 21, 2018 by L0ne.R

[+barefootjeff]

27 minutes ago, barefootjeff said:

I used the new submission page just last week and, unless I missed something, the size descriptions were still vague like "about the size of an apple". Since the Help Centre actually defines the size ranges, I don't understand why the cache submission page can't display the same information instead of being dumbed down to apples and shoe boxes.

So much for my memory. I just checked again and they're the pictures L0ne.R showed, which are better than the apples and shoeboxes but it'd still be nice to have the actual definitive size ranges shown there in addition to the pictures.

[+Manville Possum]

4 hours ago, Davros Von Skaro said:

I am actually considering quitting the game and orphaning my own caches.

 

I too am disgusted with geocaching because of the poor quality of tossed out and left for the community to maintain caches. Thankfully you only have 4 to leave when you quit.

I'm archiving and removing mine because I always cared about the quality of the game. We used to have good reviewers that enforced guidelines and did a clean up of low health score caches in our area, but the game is mostly limited to just a handful of cachers that own thousands of caches that they won't maintain.

If anyone is to blame for the decline in geocaching it is Groundspeak for allowing CO's to keep tossing out junk and not maintain what they already have. Whoever created the local power trails along busy four lane highways tossed out about 1000 caches and has not signed back into the account in a few years. The game used to be about getting out and being active, which is why I took up this hobby. 

[Ranger Fox]

I have a mystery cache in a park.  One time, someone contacted me and said he was hiding a series in that park and was having trouble avoiding my cache.  He wasn't as experienced, so I asked for the coordinates to the caches he was hiding, and I moved my cache for him.

My same cache above had a purpose, so I didn't want to archive it.  However, I wanted to work with others so what I do doesn't compromise their fun.  If someone were to contact me and ask to use the space one of my ho-hum caches occupies--and the person wasn't just going to place a cache with no redeeming value--I'd likely archive mine in favor of one with more quality and purpose.

As for power trails, you need to start somewhere.  Might it be the case that by creating power trails, you could encourage others to get in on it?  So for power trails with multiple hiders to exist, someone has to take that step forward.  Besides, I'm sure any power trail owner would seriously consider archiving a cache or two if someone proposes a better use for one spot ("better" being decided between those individuals).  As a cache owner, I don't like when my quality caches are close to a power trail because I get some of the power trail's thoughtless copy and paste logs.

Regardless of a cache owner's wishes, a power trail is self-maintaining because those on the trail--whether the community or cache owner wills it or not--will drop caches anywhere they don't find one (note I did not say, "where one is missing").

Finally, my answer to the topic's question as to if someone can have too many caches: that's based on the person and the time such an individual is able to spend upon maintenance.  For some of us who don't have much free time, we might be able to sustain 65 caches (1 maintenance issue every 2 weeks, with a possible interval of 2.5 years between maintenance visits).  For those of us who have a lot of free time, we might be able to sustain 5,200 caches (20 maintenance issues each day in a weekend, with a possible interval of 2.5 years between maintenance visits).  And for power trails, the number is higher due to finders' tendency to drop caches.  Please keep in mind the average time between maintenance visits depends upon the site selection (e.g. stable terrain), hide method (e.g. anchored or easily washed away), container selected for the environment (e.g. plastic in the desert, metal in a wet area, plastic in a temperate area), geocachers who visit (e.g. being rough or careless with the container, hide method, terrain), and some amount of luck (e.g. woodland becomes developed upon, an earthquake destroys the area, a hurricane comes through).  Some caches can survive more than a decade.  One of the ones I hid some ten years ago gets DNFs every now and then, but the container is always there and in great shape, with the log book as pristine as the day I left it--which surprised me when I checked on it.  So is the oldest cache in Quebec, by the way.

[Davros Von Skaro]

10 hours ago, L0ne.R said:

I think what DVS might mean is now that the trail is saturated with pill bottles he does not intend to use that trail for geocaching, even if the opportunity arises. Hopefully DVS will come back and confirm.

That's how I feel when I see a PT saturated trail. That trail IMO has been ruined. It's not that I mind a saturated trail, as long as it grows organically with a variety of cache owners, hiding styles, cache containers, placed various distances apart. I can pick and choose the caches along such a trail that suits me. When it's saturated with abandoned, numbers-style, cheap, junk containers with the same write-up for each and log after log of TFTC, then none of them suit me. The PT behavior is selfish and boring. 

That's exactly what I'm seeing. literally copy/pasted description. All 528 ft apart. I have went caching in area several times. I find separating them out from the rest is shall we say, tedious? 

[Davros Von Skaro]

13 hours ago, The A-Team said:

I'm curious why you would consider quitting the game just because someone hid a bunch of caches along a trail. You already said you weren't planning on hiding any caches there, so what part of it do you feel has impacted you to the extent that you would consider walking away? I would genuinely like to know.

The answer to this will probably vary depending on the region and community. Around here, we don't have a lot of places where you could do something like this simply due to the terrain and type of environment. In general, cachers around here don't hide more caches than they can maintain, with the odd and expected exceptions.

They could talk to the CO and see if they could cooperate on hiding caches along the trail. If they only wanted to hide a cache or two, they could contact the CO and see if they can leave a few spots open.

This varies depending on the person and region, so there isn't a way to give a specific number. In a desert environment, a retired cacher could realistically hide a huge number of caches that require little to no maintenance, and would have enough time to maintain the ones that do. In an environment that has snow on the ground for half a year, a working cacher could realistically hide and maintain a smaller number of caches that would require more maintenance and have less time to do so. There are many other factors at play, too.

If these caches are all being hidden by one CO, you could set up a filter on your email to filter out emails that contain the string "Created by: [insert CO name here]", which would be present on any of the publication emails for that CO's caches. If the caches are all part of a series with a common element in the name, you could filter on that too.

My suggestion is to not get too worked up about what others are doing. Everyone caches for different reasons and in different ways. Some like to hide lots of caches and find few, some hide few and find lots, and many other combinations in between. As long as someone else's play doesn't directly affect you, try not to let it get to you.

Thanks. I don't know why it never dawned on me to block them through email instead of changing some setting for notifications. I guess I was aggravated and not thinking straight.

[Davros Von Skaro]

Thanks everyone. I guess I was aggravated but mostly curious if there was an unwritten code of cacheing conduct. The trail spans 4 towns so far and there is talk of extending it all the way to Lake Michigan. It has been fun biking and cacheing. I just feel like it's less than courteous to span a trail the distance of 2 towns with what appears to be lesser caches when there are many others who would like to place a hide. 

[Ranger Fox]

1 hour ago, Davros Von Skaro said:

I just feel like it's less than courteous to span a trail the distance of 2 towns with what appears to be lesser caches when there are many others who would like to place a hide. 

Wouldn't others have already done so had they wanted to hide something there?

And don't you think some of the activity you've been seeing might be in response to Geowoodstock being in the general region?

[+GeoElmo6000]

17 hours ago, Davros Von Skaro said:

I am actually considering quitting the game

If you enjoy geocaching, don't quit!  Play the game the way you want to play.  Even though you don't like power trails, those caches can be a blessing on days where you need a cache, for example during summer souvenir time.  This past summer I found some easy local caches to help with the Friend League souvenir series, though I'm not generally interested in completing big power trails.

17 hours ago, Davros Von Skaro said:

1. Is there an etiquette to this in the geo community?

Some people love hiding lots of caches, and it seems that even more people like cachers who hide lots of caches.  For some a power trail may not be interesting, but for others they may be lots of fun.  Some cachers may be limited to caches below a certain terrain rating, and these trails may give them opportunities for more caches to find.

17 hours ago, Davros Von Skaro said:

2. What would other cachers do to place a cache there?

If you know a spot where you want to hide a cache, you can create a listing with that location.  I believe the reviewer will see the listing when someone else tries to publish one there, and give you a bit of time to either publish the cache or archive the listing.  It's kind of like calling dibs, though you can't hold the spot forever.

17 hours ago, Davros Von Skaro said:

3. How many caches can a CO realistically take care of properly?

Some people are able to maintain a lot of caches, which is amazing to me, but I've seen it done.  I only keep a small amount of caches active at a time, as I don't have the time to keep of lot of caches maintained.

17 hours ago, Davros Von Skaro said:

4. How do I stop the 20+ email notifications a day for a New Cache on these yet still get them for others in the area?

Once the series is published the deluge should stop.  I would just be patient & hunker down until the storm passes.  Or you could do some sort of filter on the email, with the name of the series for example.

17 hours ago, Davros Von Skaro said:

5. What are your suggestions/insights?

Play the game the way you want to play.  If there's a cache you're not interested in finding, don't find it.  But be open to fun ways to handle the series.  Perhaps organize a group of geocachers, pack lunch and snacks, and spend the day as a group walking this trail and finding caches together.  In my experience, the enjoyment of geocaching is more about the people I find caches with than the caches themselves.

[+L0ne.R]

2 hours ago, GeoElmo6000 said:

Perhaps organize a group of geocachers, pack lunch and snacks, and spend the day as a group walking this trail and finding caches together.  In my experience, the enjoyment of geocaching is more about the people I find caches with than the caches themselves.

That's how it's evolved in my area. Group caching is the norm. Group cachers generally show less regard for the geocache part of geocaching. The geocache is the incentive to meet up with a group of people and collect smileys on a map. Many in the group don't even see the geocache--one or two people make the find for the group. The new group culture results in less regard for the geocache and encourages more caches owned by owners who care less about the geocache too. Also, group caching suggestions as a means of enjoying the dominant PT culture, dismisses introverts in favor of extroverts who prefer social gatherings.

[+justintim1999]

18 hours ago, Manville Possum said:

 

I too am disgusted with geocaching because of the poor quality of tossed out and left for the community to maintain caches. Thankfully you only have 4 to leave when you quit.

I'm archiving and removing mine because I always cared about the quality of the game. We used to have good reviewers that enforced guidelines and did a clean up of low health score caches in our area, but the game is mostly limited to just a handful of cachers that own thousands of caches that they won't maintain.

If anyone is to blame for the decline in geocaching it is Groundspeak for allowing CO's to keep tossing out junk and not maintain what they already have. Whoever created the local power trails along busy four lane highways tossed out about 1000 caches and has not signed back into the account in a few years. The game used to be about getting out and being active, which is why I took up this hobby. 

If you care about the game than removing your quality caches from the game isn't going to help.   

[+Manville Possum]

11 minutes ago, justintim1999 said:

If you care about the game than removing your quality caches from the game isn't going to help.   

 

I once cared about this game enough that I supported it with quality hides and a premium membership, but the game declined in my area and I moved on to other interests.

My only point was I'm not leaving my listings to rot, and I'm archiving them and removing the litter. But I'm sure you can twist that into something else.

[+justintim1999]

Nope.   Just sorry to see a good cache owner go.   Good cache owners are our only chance of turning this thing around.

Edited February 21, 2018 by justintim1999
replaced help with chance.

[+L0ne.R]

46 minutes ago, justintim1999 said:

Good cache owners are our only chance of turning this thing around.

I don't think that's true. I have yet to see good cache ownership influence anyone. After PT style play took hold in 2010 numbers style play made it less attractive to good owners.

People appreciate good ownership but don't emulate it. There is little reward and a growing sense of aggravation among cache owners who care.

 

[+Mudfrog]

23 hours ago, Davros Von Skaro said:

I have been unable to find any info on this topic. First I will give the situation. In northern Indiana and southern Michigan there is a new trail being made. In the last month or 2 a CO has put out nearly 300 caches along this route sometimes before a section was even finished. At first I thought it was geoart but that does not appear to be the case. I do not plan to place a cache there nor do intend to look for any of these as I'm not in it for bulk easy finds to raise my "score". This seems like it could be contentious topic and that is not my intent but this is starting to really put me off on geocaching. I am actually considering quitting the game and orphaning my own caches. My questions are: 1. Is there an etiquette to this in the geo community? 2. What would other cachers do to place a cache there?  3. How many caches can a CO realistically take care of properly? (seems many like these are placed and abandoned immediately) 4. How do I stop the 20+ email notifications a day for a New Cache on these yet still get them for others in the area? 5. What are your suggestions/insights?

In this case, i'm fairly certain the CO isn't even thinking about maintenance. This is a power trail we're talking about here which for some reason, doesn't seem to have to abide by the same owner maintenance guidelines other caches have to abide by. It's most likely another trail where finders take of throwing down containers when they go missing.

On the emails, you can't do anything about it. If you want to see published caches, then you get everything. Same thing goes with pocket queries where it's tough to get the results you want. You either miss some good or you get a lot of bad.

People on here will ask why you don't place what you like, or why pull your caches and quit? They say things like it's only a game, iet people play the way they want, and so forth. Fact is, geocaching has changed and is not the hobby i signed up for 15 years ago. Myself, i take care the caches i've hidden (don't know why since they're too hard for anyone to go after), and i hang around in these forums. As far as finding, it's been months. I'm simply not interested in finding what's placed these days.

[+cerberus1]

1 hour ago, justintim1999 said:

Good cache owners are our only chance of turning this thing around.

13 minutes ago, L0ne.R said:

I don't think that's true. I have yet to see good cache ownership influence anyone. After PT style play took hold in 2010 numbers style play made it less attractive to good owners.

People appreciate good ownership but don't emulate it. There is little reward and a growing sense of aggravation among cache owners who care.

I'd sorta agree with LOne.R if "good" was removed.  There being so many different  opinions on what's "good" these days...  

We see few placing well-constructed, waterproof  containers, and realize that our ammo cans mean nada to the 1.5/1.5 strewn-about pill bottle "every 600' because you can" owners surrounding us today, though many of those COs have found them.   We're simply outnumbered, and I don't see that changing for a long time.

I plan on outliving them. 

 

 

[+L0ne.R]

15 minutes ago, cerberus1 said:

I'd sorta agree with LOne.R if "good" was removed. 

 

 

1

Good point.

Edited February 21, 2018 by L0ne.R

[+barefootjeff]

1 hour ago, L0ne.R said:

2 hours ago, justintim1999 said:

Good cache owners are our only chance of turning this thing around.

I don't think that's true. I have yet to see good cache ownership influence anyone. After PT style play took hold in 2010 numbers style play made it less attractive to good owners.

People appreciate good ownership but don't emulate it. There is little reward and a growing sense of aggravation among cache owners who care.

When I started caching in 2013 I was very much inspired by many of my predecessors' amazing hides and made, well am still making, a conscious effort to try to emulate their level of quality and commitment in my own hides.

[+justintim1999]

52 minutes ago, barefootjeff said:

When I started caching in 2013 I was very much inspired by many of my predecessors' amazing hides and made, well am still making, a conscious effort to try to emulate their level of quality and commitment in my own hides.

You have to have some level of faith.  You never know when a new cacher will be inspired by something you did.   I like barefootjeff tried to emulate many of the great caches and cache hiders in my area.  I doubt they know how influential they really were.  In some way my caches are a tribute to them.

[+Manville Possum]

5 hours ago, justintim1999 said:

Good cache owners are our only chance of turning this thing around.

 

We can't do it without Groundspeak. When a company fails to listen to their customers there is no hope for improvement and geocaching is not attracting new customers/players to keep the game interesting.

When there are active players still out finding caches but not keeping up their own listing and depending on the community to replace them and not addressing NM's and just allowing the reviewers to archive them that is a problem. A good reviewer could help, but they depend on the community to flag caches, but the community has changed and few will even log a DNF anymore. 

So I don't see any chance of improvement for geocaching without better management.

[+bflentje]

On 2/20/2018 at 1:29 PM, Davros Von Skaro said:

I am actually considering quitting the game and orphaning my own caches. 

This has to be a joke. NO ONE could be that triggered to leave the game for something that doesn't need to affect them.

[Davros Von Skaro]

19 hours ago, Ranger Fox said:

Wouldn't others have already done so had they wanted to hide something there?

And don't you think some of the activity you've been seeing might be in response to Geowoodstock being in the general region?

I believe they would have but they were at least waiting for the construction to be completed and forms pulled lol.

[Davros Von Skaro]

11 hours ago, barefootjeff said:

When I started caching in 2013 I was very much inspired by many of my predecessors' amazing hides and made, well am still making, a conscious effort to try to emulate their level of quality and commitment in my own hides.

I agree. The few hides I have, have custom containers and backstories. Trying to be original and give people something they likely haven't seen in our area. I like PnG's and such, just no so many so close together and wish others were given time to make their own hides. For my hides I care less about getting 5000 people to find it than I do about the people that do find it thinking "man that was fun" or unique. 

[+justintim1999]

11 hours ago, Manville Possum said:

 

We can't do it without Groundspeak. When a company fails to listen to their customers there is no hope for improvement and geocaching is not attracting new customers/players to keep the game interesting.

When there are active players still out finding caches but not keeping up their own listing and depending on the community to replace them and not addressing NM's and just allowing the reviewers to archive them that is a problem. A good reviewer could help, but they depend on the community to flag caches, but the community has changed and few will even log a DNF anymore. 

So I don't see any chance of improvement for geocaching without better management.

I see the Cache Health Score as an attempt to do just that.   Let's face it,  how much control dose GS really have?  They rely on each and every cache owner to do what they're suppose to do.   The world is a big place.  Even if they had some physical way to check up on caches I don't think it would be 100% bulletproof.  All they can do is try to develop ways to identify abandoned caches and negligent cache owners and somehow get them to maintain their caches or archive them.   It's a tall task which is made even more difficult when experienced cachers decide to either push back against the effort or leave the game entirely. 

I believe Groundspeak can't do it without us.

I'm not trying to sound altruistic here but I'll be dammed if I'll let a few fly-by-night cachers ruin what I consider a great activity.   I may not be able to directly stop them but I can sure as hell try to balance the scale.              

Edited February 22, 2018 by justintim1999

[+NYPaddleCacher]

10 hours ago, bflentje said:

This has to be a joke. NO ONE could be that triggered to leave the game for something that doesn't need to affect them.

False premise.

Anyone that claims that the power trail mentality hasn't had an large impact on the way the game is played today is fooling themselves.  With the monkey-see/monkey do impact the power trail mentality just grows in an area which has an impact on the types of caches available to find, blocks large swaths of real estate for any other type of cache to be placed and leads to a focus on quantity rather than quality.  How does that not impact the game?

If a trail is saturated with 300 cut-n-paste cache with no room for any others the geocacher that prefers to find caches which demonstrate a smidgen of creativity can't enjoy geocaching on that trail unless they hold their nose and find the PT caches.  How is that not affecting them?

When a PT is published and 300 notifications messages sent out, because there isn't a PT attribute nor the ability to exclude notifications based on a co name or attribute isn't available the only way to stop those messages is to create a filter *after* the messages start getting sent.  If all 300 are published on the same day there would be no point in creating the filter because the messages are already in ones in box.  For someone that wants to do those PTs there isn't a negative impact.  For someone that doesn't they have to jump through hoops to avoid them.

 

[+GeoElmo6000]

20 hours ago, L0ne.R said:

That's how it's evolved in my area. Group caching is the norm. Group cachers generally show less regard for the geocache part of geocaching. The geocache is the incentive to meet up with a group of people and collect smileys on a map. Many in the group don't even see the geocache--one or two people make the find for the group. The new group culture results in less regard for the geocache and encourages more caches owned by owners who care less about the geocache too. Also, group caching suggestions as a means of enjoying the dominant PT culture, dismisses introverts in favor of extroverts who prefer social gatherings.

I can see what you mean.  I've had many logs like "Found by xxx, yyy, and zzz on a fun caching day through your area.  Thanks to the many COs who placed and maintained these caches."  It's a letdown when I receive those logs on my caches, because it's obvious that my cache wasn't memorable to those who found it.

OTOH, as an introvert and solo cacher, the best times I've had geocaching have been the couple of times I've organized a group of people for a special geocaching day.  My favorite was when nine of us spent the day finding The Bridges and Arches of Central Park, spending over 6 hours and 9 miles of walking to find the iconic 32 stage multi cache.  Another time a group of us got together to walk lower Manhattan to find six of the seven souvenirs of August (2014 I believe) in one go (minus the event souvenir, which was handled the day before).  And I always find paddle caches in a group, for safety and for the fun.  For each cache I found those days, I, as I always do, spent time writing a descriptive log describing my experience with that particular cache.

My solution to the already existing PT isn't to get a group together and find them.  It was just one of a few ideas, which also included ignoring them (which I do for the most part) or saving them for days where you just want to find a quick and easy cache (which I have done for calendar days or souvenirs).

[+JL_HSTRE]

Everything has a "norm." How much to tip, how fast to drive relative to the posted speed limit, etc.

When power trails didn't exist what was the norm be for geocache hides? An ammo can in the woods.

What is the norm with power trails? Urban micros with no purpose but boosting numbers.

Most people who start caching don't have an experienced cacher to show them the best caches. They start off by themselves (or with other newbie friends/family) and look for what's close by.

I started finding regular size caches in a park. If I had started with parking lot LPCs and power trails I would have said this is boring and not kept at it. How many other potentially good cachers were turned off by what they found when they started? How many competitive numbers hounds were drawn into something that shouldn't really cater to them?

Furthermore, if you want to play a numbers-based GPS game there are now other, better options for that style of play than geocaching.

[+justintim1999]

1 hour ago, GeoElmo6000 said:

I can see what you mean.  I've had many logs like "Found by xxx, yyy, and zzz on a fun caching day through your area.  Thanks to the many COs who placed and maintained these caches."  It's a letdown when I receive those logs on my caches, because it's obvious that my cache wasn't memorable to those who found it.

OTOH, as an introvert and solo cacher, the best times I've had geocaching have been the couple of times I've organized a group of people for a special geocaching day.  My favorite was when nine of us spent the day finding The Bridges and Arches of Central Park, spending over 6 hours and 9 miles of walking to find the iconic 32 stage multi cache.  Another time a group of us got together to walk lower Manhattan to find six of the seven souvenirs of August (2014 I believe) in one go (minus the event souvenir, which was handled the day before).  And I always find paddle caches in a group, for safety and for the fun.  For each cache I found those days, I, as I always do, spent time writing a descriptive log describing my experience with that particular cache.

My solution to the already existing PT isn't to get a group together and find them.  It was just one of a few ideas, which also included ignoring them (which I do for the most part) or saving them for days where you just want to find a quick and easy cache (which I have done for calendar days or souvenirs).

As cache owners we all love to hear how wonderful our cache is.  Some people like to write long descriptive logs.  Others choose to keep in short and simple.    Just because someone doesn't write about it in a log doesn't mean they didn't enjoy the experience.     When I first started I wrote short logs as I think many newbies do.  As I look back on it today I realize that those caches were some of the most amazing I may ever do.    Try not to take a short or generic log to heart.   Realize that these people were outside enjoying themselves today and your cache was a part of that.  

Edited February 22, 2018 by justintim1999

[+arisoft]

1 hour ago, NYPaddleCacher said:

Anyone that claims that the power trail mentality hasn't had an large impact on the way the game is played today is fooling themselves.  With the monkey-see/monkey do impact the power trail mentality just grows in an area which has an impact on the types of caches available to find, blocks large swaths of real estate for any other type of cache to be placed and leads to a focus on quantity rather than quality.  How does that not impact the game?

In my country power trails are quite new phenomenon. Some years ago our reviewers did not pass anything which seems to be a series and could be made with a single multi-cache. Suddenly things changed and more and more power trails appeared all over the country. Practically all of them are placed in the woods near nature trails.

Power trails seems to attract visitors. Sometimes too many, which had led to archiving of some of them due to erosion at sensitive area. I can see only one reason for the popularity, number of finds earned. For the same reason, areas with multiple caches also attract visitors.

When those power trails were new, a friend of mine studied what is the impact to the players after completing a power trail. It seems that many of the newly started geocachers stopped their hobby after this experience for some reason. I think that more experienced players can to adapt to the situation more flexibly but my own concern is directed at beginners for whom such experience offers a far too unilateral image of the hobby.

Edited February 22, 2018 by arisoft

[+bflentje]

4 hours ago, NYPaddleCacher said:

Quote

This has to be a joke. NO ONE could be that triggered to leave the game for something that doesn't need to affect them.

False premise.

Anyone that claims that the power trail mentality hasn't had an large impact on the way the game is played today is fooling themselves.  With the monkey-see/monkey do impact the power trail mentality just grows in an area which has an impact on the types of caches available to find, blocks large swaths of real estate for any other type of cache to be placed and leads to a focus on quantity rather than quality.  How does that not impact the game?

If a trail is saturated with 300 cut-n-paste cache with no room for any others the geocacher that prefers to find caches which demonstrate a smidgen of creativity can't enjoy geocaching on that trail unless they hold their nose and find the PT caches.  How is that not affecting them?

When a PT is published and 300 notifications messages sent out, because there isn't a PT attribute nor the ability to exclude notifications based on a co name or attribute isn't available the only way to stop those messages is to create a filter *after* the messages start getting sent.  If all 300 are published on the same day there would be no point in creating the filter because the messages are already in ones in box.  For someone that wants to do those PTs there isn't a negative impact.  For someone that doesn't they have to jump through hoops to avoid them.

 

I qualified my statement,,

[+Manville Possum]

4 hours ago, justintim1999 said:

I see the Cache Health Score as an attempt to do just that.   Let's face it,  how much control dose GS really have?  They rely on each and every cache owner to do what they're suppose to do.   The world is a big place.  Even if they had some physical way to check up on caches I don't think it would be 100% bulletproof.  All they can do is try to develop ways to identify abandoned caches and negligent cache owners and somehow get them to maintain their caches or archive them.   It's a tall task which is made even more difficult when experienced cachers decide to either push back against the effort or leave the game entirely. 

I believe Groundspeak can't do it without us.

I'm not trying to sound altruistic here but I'll be dammed if I'll let a few fly-by-night cachers ruin what I consider a great activity.   I may not be able to directly stop them but I can sure as hell try to balance the scale.              

 

Playing the game accordingly and posting DNF, NM, and NA's has caused me all kinds of backlash from cache owners. Maybe that is why I'm seeing those found the location, but no cache present in finders logs, and the CO's let those stand. Most every time I've deleted a found it but didn't sign it log from my listings it's followed by a nasty email, and now my response is only to ask that they remove the didn't sign it part of their fake armchair log just to avoid confrontation.

I'm not sure what you mean by a fly by night cacher, but locally it's the veteran cachers that have left the game or can no longer maintain their caches and a few that own 500+ listings that they will no longer even visit the cache page when concerns are posted. 

It seems that the event hosting group cachers are the best CO's locally, but I'm not into that style of copy/paste for the numbers runs. It's kinda dwindled down to one small group of friends that created a geocaching club and a FB page that are only finding each others caches. 

[+L0ne.R]

23 minutes ago, Manville Possum said:

but locally it's the veteran cachers that have left the game or can no longer maintain their caches and a few that own 500+ listings that they will no longer even visit the cache page when concerns are posted.

That's the case where I live too. The veterans are placing set-em-and-forget-em caches and lots of them.  There are very few new cache owners, so I'm seeing less fly-by-night place-a-couple-and-never-cache-again owners.

[+justintim1999]

1 hour ago, Manville Possum said:

 

Playing the game accordingly and posting DNF, NM, and NA's has caused me all kinds of backlash from cache owners. Maybe that is why I'm seeing those found the location, but no cache present in finders logs, and the CO's let those stand. Most every time I've deleted a found it but didn't sign it log from my listings it's followed by a nasty email, and now my response is only to ask that they remove the didn't sign it part of their fake armchair log just to avoid confrontation.

I'm not sure what you mean by a fly by night cacher, but locally it's the veteran cachers that have left the game or can no longer maintain their caches and a few that own 500+ listings that they will no longer even visit the cache page when concerns are posted. 

It seems that the event hosting group cachers are the best CO's locally, but I'm not into that style of copy/paste for the numbers runs. It's kinda dwindled down to one small group of friends that created a geocaching club and a FB page that are only finding each others caches. 

I don't mean to sound naïve but I've never seen or witnessed the type of backlash your describing.  Why someone (whos'  clearly in the wrong) would attack a cache owner for deleting a log is beyond me.   I can see questioning why it was deleted and asking to have it re-instated but to verbally attack the cache owner over a find.....Mind boggling.

I guess fly-by-night cachers to me are people who think owning a cache is a novelty and don't really care too much about what they put out and how they maintain them.    

As far as the 500+ listing people are concerned, as long as people continue to post dnf's and NM's on caches sooner or later the CHS will catch up with them.   I'll assume your reviewer is a straight shooter so is the problem more of a lack or fear of posting the correct logs by your local geocaching community?

Sounds like it's time to start recruiting some new blood into your club.  Maybe a "Geocaching 101" or "Learn to hide a cache" event.  Some fresh faces and new ideas may be just what you need.

Besides there's strength in numbers.

 

[+L0ne.R]

35 minutes ago, justintim1999 said:

As far as the 500+ listing people are concerned, as long as people continue to post dnf's and NM's on caches sooner or later the CHS will catch up with them.

 

The 500+ owners tend to have one or two PTs which we all no means community maintenance (aka throwdowns) are allowed. If the PT cache is still active (i.e. an NM followed up with a throwdown) it's rare to see a reviewer archive that PT container.

Edited February 22, 2018 by L0ne.R
Removed the first paragraph, it wasn't relevant.

[+L0ne.R]

30 minutes ago, justintim1999 said:

Besides there's strength in numbers.

Freudian slip?