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What About a HISTORICAL Cache?


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I understand why HQ did away with virtual caches. As one reviewer told me people were making a manhole cover into a virtual cache. I would like to suggest that, in addition to earth caches which are limited to geology, that HQ allow a "Historical Cache." This would be a cache that has some historical meaning. There would be a requirement to be present on the location by identifying something that couldn't be just researched on the internet. Here is an example:

Independence Hall Historical Cache

39.949° N, 75.1500° W

Independence Hall was the site if the Continental Congress leading up to and during the Revolutionary War.  In this building representatives of the thirteen colonies drafted and signed the Declaration of Independence and in 1787 drafted and signed the Constitution of the new United States.

To claim this cache you must email me the answer to the following question.

In front of Independence Hall there is a statue of George Washington.  To Washington's right are two plaques in the pavement.  One plaque is about President Abraham Lincoln, who is the other plaque about?

I have been told that Waymarks are supposed to provide this type of cache. I have explored Waymarks and I am not impressed. Historical caches would be a way to have caches in places where traditional, physical caches cannot be placed and would expand the ability to educate young geocachers about our country's history.

 

 

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Earthcaches exist because of the partnership between Groundspeak and the Geological Society of America.  Earthcaches are reviewed by volunteers with advanced knowledge of geology.  Have you identified a partner organization with a worldwide reputation for the promotion of history, who would be as well equipped to serve as an objective arbiter of history as the GSA has done for geology?

Without such a partnership, I don't see this idea gaining much traction.  While I have an extensive background in history, and I'd volunteer for such a program, I would not do so without the backing of an organization like the GSA.

Why is that important to me?  Because historical narrative can be manipulated by the narrator.  "History is written by the victors."  I would not wish to face arguments about historical details without expert backup for appeals and guidance.  To gain an idea of what could go wrong, read this thread.

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This was discussed a couple years ago. '10 I think.

IIRC, in order to have a "historical cache", it'd have to be similar to Earthcaches.  A historical group similar to the Geological Society would have to state they're willing to come on board, with an agreement with Groundspeak.

Similar to Keystone, I feel not all "old" things are historical, and can see this an issue with any Reviewer.

Remember quite a few stated they'd like a historical attribute though... 

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I recall discussing this subject before, which is well covered in the first two posts of this thread. I still find the subject interesting although I have lost interest in geocaching in general because of poor cache quality. I would still be interested in seeking a new cache type with new attributes.

As for these caches working on Waymarking? I feel the site has declined too much to be useful now and was not a substitute for geocachers. Waymarkers are different.

I'd like to see GS come up with a History type cache that requires active ownership.

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19 minutes ago, cerberus1 said:

Found it.  :)    So there may be a bunch on the subject, just header wording throwing searches off.

 

I bet you won't see Waymarking tossed out there this go around. :D I don't think we will ever get a history cache type here for reasons that have already been presented by moderator Keystone. They would require a third party to review them, and they likely want paid for their services. ;)

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In front of Independence Hall there is a statue of George Washington.  To Washington's right are two plaques in the pavement.  One plaque is about President Abraham Lincoln, who is the other plaque about?

This isn't history, it's a trivia question about a location - intended to be answered on site, but more  probably answered with online research.

History isn't facts, plaques or monument; it's an interpretation of the significance of what is known, with guesses about what isn't, and subject to the limitations of focus and perspective ("told by the victors").  Even history as old as 1100 is subject to intense controversy.  The story, history, of Gengis Khan is being massively retold, rewritten, revised right now. Not just details, but in all the aspects of impacts and importance of the Mongol empire.

 

Edited by Isonzo Karst
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As an historian, public historian, and archivist, here are some international societies which may be consulted:  International Committee of Historical Sciences; International Council on Archives, which does limit the victor narrative, International Historical Club.

As with lab caches, it could be field tested in areas with stronger history societies and archive societies, such as in the US: Society of American Archivists or National Council on Public History.

Just a thoughtful response to Keystone's question.

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7 hours ago, fizzymagic said:

I presented a proposal for a partnership between Groundspeak and a historical organization about 3 years ago.  Groundspeak rejected it immediately without ever contacting the organization.

Not gonna happen.

That's too bad.   A new cache type like this would be a breath of fresh air and a good reason to get out and learn something.  Like earth caches I'd think a historical cache type would be another gold star in the PR column for GS.  I can imaging getting this off the ground would be a challenge but I'd have to think it would be easier than getting geocachers to agree on when a dnf should be posted.  

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Earthcaches themselves always seems to me like something not really related to the game, that only exist because of financial/marketing reasons. There's a lot of armchair logging in them, and quite a few are insulting to other nations by the fact they should be in the country's language (by EC's own rules), but the reviewers approve any bad and unreadable google translate that disrespect the local language and culture (which they would probably not approve if it was the other way around, of a foreigner publishing EC in US/Canada/UK in an non understandable text by translate program).

 

 

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Apart from whether Groundspeak will allow any new cache type similar to earthcaches (as FizzyMagic indicates may be problem), I am less enthusiastic about the idea of a history cache than I once was. 

History is a broad concept.  My view of history is shaped more by Howard Zinn's People's History of the United States than it is by the textbooks we used during school.  But within this, I am not sure I wold want to mediate between people's respective view of history.  I once visited a cache that had a nearby plaque dedicated to a UFO crash -- according to the plaque, a spacecraft crashed there in 1948 and killed as many as 16 aliens.  It is described as a "significant part of our Nation's  history."   Would that be enough to create a history cache at the site?  Would a historical organization approve it?  Would the category quickly become a repository of historical plaques or would people be submitting endless appeals when their version of history did not make the cut?  There would be a lot to sort out.

I once found a cache where the CO stated their belief that "geocaching will aid historians.  What some document as geocaches will help keep alive local lore, urban legends or long forgotten events."  That is precisely the kind of cache that I want to find.   I have sometimes found these things through geocaching -- although I have sometimes been surprised when It has been up to me to write about the history that I find interesting through my logs -- Joe Hill's execution in Salt Lake City; the copper mine strike in Jerome, Arizona; the march of the farmworkers from Delano to Sacramento.    

Still, there should be a good way to identify history-based caches even if there is not a "history cache" as a new type.  When traveling, I tend to research the history first and then see if there are caches nearby that might document that -- its often too hard to find anything of interest when looking on a geocaching map that is covered with repetitive caches or containers that seem to be placed for no reason other than to offer another smiley.   

Some have suggested a history attribute.  That would be helpful.   I wish that caches could be linked on the web through tags that would be a more flexible version of an attribute.  My interest in caching would be increased if I could click on a tag and find caches that have been tagged related to history, rock art, ghost stories, and the like.   

 

Edited by geodarts
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I wonder if it would have made any difference if someone at the historical organization contacted them directly.  I assume that it was in *international* historical organization, because if not, that might have given GS a good reason to reject the proposal.  I'd be very curious why GS rejected the proposal because this is something that geocachers have been requesting for many years.  I'd like to think that GS listens to their customers.

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I used to think a historical cache type would be a positive addition, and it's certainly something which I would be  interested in.

However one significant problem which I could see with it though is that history is often  written by the winners, and is also often associated with divisive subjects. For example in recent years the USA had an ongoing debate about memorials/statues in some of the Southern States, over in the UK there's currently a debate going on in Bristol about one of the  forefathers who has previously been honored in the city but who  has recently fallen out of favour because he made his money as a slave trader; throw into that mix the locations  of battles/revolutions/massacres etc. and I fear that too many potential HistoCaches would end up falling foul of the "No Agenda" guideline. Considering the rumpus that it could cause, I think it's probably best if GS don't go down this route.

 

 

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Similar to MartyBartfast I guess... Here in the US, what used to be considered part of the country's history has now shifted to "if it doesn't agree with current thinking of a group of loudmouths, it's outta here".   An agenda.   We're seeing some going so far as to replace school names and remove memorials of even our founding Fathers.    I believe most realize what happens if we "erase" history.

If "history" can be changed by whim of a few, I'd question how a "historical cache" could even be accurate, much less without agenda. 

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On ‎2‎/‎15‎/‎2018 at 9:49 PM, Michigan Traveler said:

I have been told that Waymarks are supposed to provide this type of cache. I have explored Waymarks and I am not impressed. Historical caches would be a way to have caches in places where traditional, physical caches cannot be placed and would expand the ability to educate young geocachers about our country's history.

There's one current wm category proposal for Former Brothels, under the guise of "buildings of a historical nature".  Now that's educating our young geocachers.  ;)  

 - So I'm a bit curious ... what would be deemed "historical"?  If it's just fitting anything that one might propose as historical, I'd prefer it stayed in Waymarking thanks.    :)

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On 16/02/2018 at 2:49 AM, Michigan Traveler said:

I understand why HQ did away with virtual caches. As one reviewer told me people were making a manhole cover into a virtual cache. I would like to suggest that, in addition to earth caches which are limited to geology, that HQ allow a "Historical Cache." This would be a cache that has some historical meaning. There would be a requirement to be present on the location by identifying something that couldn't be just researched on the internet. Here is an example:

Independence Hall Historical Cache

39.949° N, 75.1500° W

Independence Hall was the site if the Continental Congress leading up to and during the Revolutionary War.  In this building representatives of the thirteen colonies drafted and signed the Declaration of Independence and in 1787 drafted and signed the Constitution of the new United States.

To claim this cache you must email me the answer to the following question.

In front of Independence Hall there is a statue of George Washington.  To Washington's right are two plaques in the pavement.  One plaque is about President Abraham Lincoln, who is the other plaque about?

I have been told that Waymarks are supposed to provide this type of cache. I have explored Waymarks and I am not impressed. Historical caches would be a way to have caches in places where traditional, physical caches cannot be placed and would expand the ability to educate young geocachers about our country's history.

 

 

I have found a multi based on history and it said on the description that it would be. I don't feel a historical cache would be a greatt fit but I think history should be an attribute feature.

Aer72

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"There would be a requirement to be present on the location by identifying something that couldn't be just researched on the internet. Here is an example:"

Almost anything can be researched on the internet. Found the answer in under a minute by googling "independence hall george wasington statue" - John F Kennedy would be the answer.

Edited by RocTheCacheBox
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Yes those kinds of 'on site' questions almost have to be something descriptive, something not photographed often, something not text-based, and something facing away from any street(-view camera) to reduce the google-fu.  Earthcache hands-on tasks are great examples.  Identifying things in odd locations based on a contextual surrounding is good too (orienteering style tasks to get an answer).

Edited by thebruce0
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