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Planetary Pursuit?

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20 hours ago, cerberus1 said:

Don't you need to "activate" your friends list if you want to participate?   I looked for a way to enter myself, but it seems I need to "activate" that friends league thing to enter.  Isn't that so?

On the setting  "Find Friends" mine reads... "You are not allowing friend requests at this time. You can update this setting by unchecking the 'block friend requests from other geocachers' checkbox on the Account Preferences page".  :)

 

Legit question: Do you just not have any friends?  Because I just turned off friend requests but it still allows me to see my friend league.  The link is right under "You are not allowing friend requests..."

 

 

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4 hours ago, Michaelcycle said:

Well, he got the bicycle part right. If there is a god, she surely rides a bicycle:D

Count me as another that would prefer they get back to granting souvenirs for caching in [places (countries or lesser bounded designations)

 

I ride a vintage 1977 Murrary 5 speed with reduced gear ratio and fat tires that is equipped to haul my fishing poles and gear. :D It's got that "mug the next guy" look about it when I ride the greenbelts. B)

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6 hours ago, GeoElmo6000 said:

I'm confused with the individuality of the promotion and the Friend League tie in. Does the Friend League need to reach the points listed for the souvenirs, or the individual?  It'll be hard for me to get 500 points in three weeks by myself, but if I get 5 points and my Friend League gets 495, do I get all the souvenirs?  The wording for the number of points needed for each souvenir is confusing to me: "Points needed on the Friend League (individual)"

I liked how LANMonkey gave tips for playing the promotion, and was able to thematically tie in the various aspects of the website in his recent blog post.

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7 hours ago, dprovan said:

Meh. I'm OK with whimsy, but the problem here is that I don't think it was whimsy, I think it was just a mistake. Someone didn't get the memo, and the folks at GS should not miss memo's that significant.

Having said that, I just think it's funny they'd make such a silly mistake, I don't think there's any reason to get upset about it or anything. But, speaking of whimsy, anpefi's post is accurate, detailed, and clear, but I don't think it was intended to be a serious complaint. Just pointing out the mistake.

I suspect it was not a mistake. I bet they wanted a way to get to ten (9+1)

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I'm a bit underwhelmed, as it seems to be all about getting as many quick smilies as you can each day with a strong disincentive to go for the higher D/T caches that might take longer and more effort to find. This appears to be the way they want caching to go these days, though, so who am I to argue?

I'm also a bit confused by the Friend League bit, particularly where it says "The Friend League resets every Monday at noon UTC". Does this mean we have to go flat-chat to get all the needed points in a single week within that three week period it's running for, or is it a leftover from last year that no-one's got around to changing yet?

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4 hours ago, jenny08_1015 said:

Legit question: Do you just not have any friends?  Because I just turned off friend requests but it still allows me to see my friend league.  The link is right under "You are not allowing friend requests..."

That (for me) just shows a blank box with "add a friend" and the "send invitation" button to the right.  Clicking on "get motivated with your friend league" further over simply brings the page back to the beginning.  Couldn't find help in the FAQ either.  Looks (to me) like adding "friends" a necessity.

I have a few friends.  Not "like" the faceboook kind, actual friends. Like the ones who'd help if your car broke down friends.  I had only one person on my "friends list", mentioned it at a small event, and was questioned what use was it to the site anyway.  AFAIK most removed it as well.  I won't use my friends for yet another marketing thing.  It seems (to me) similar to "add your friends email to our mailing list for an extra entry in the contest !".  :)

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3 hours ago, Michaelcycle said:

I suspect it was not a mistake. I bet they wanted a way to get to ten (9+1)

After all, the sun was a planet before heliocentrism and it is still a planet for flat earthers. :P

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15 hours ago, Michaelcycle said:

For some of us (I suspect a LOT of us) Pluto was (is)  designated as a planet for the majority of our lives. Even as a scientist, I have no beef with this bit of whimsy in this promotion. That does not mean that I endorse the promotion as a whole.

Precisely for what you comment in bold is why it is even more important that GS did the correct didactic exercise with the list of planets. I know it's a profound change, in fact it took me a lot to remove Pluto from my mental list, and it was not until I saw dozens of times a chapter of Peppa Pig (my son's favorite cartoons) in which they list the planets (without Pluto) until I internalized it.

 

14 hours ago, dprovan said:

Meh. I'm OK with whimsy, but the problem here is that I don't think it was whimsy, I think it was just a mistake. Someone didn't get the memo, and the folks at GS should not miss memo's that significant.

Having said that, I just think it's funny they'd make such a silly mistake, I don't think there's any reason to get upset about it or anything. But, speaking of whimsy, anpefi's post is accurate, detailed, and clear, but I don't think it was intended to be a serious complaint. Just pointing out the mistake.

My post is not a formal complaint, but it is in a certain way serious. I am disappointed that GS makes this mistake (or whim, or what you might consider it) especially because in other facets they have always been very likely to make their activities with a clear educational side, and adjusted to scientific consensus (as shown by their partnership with the GSA for the Earthcaches). In my opinion it is a lost opportunity to make this game with Pluto listed as a planet. Obviously it is a game and the importance is relative to it, but it helps people continue to internalize Pluto as a planet (as shown.

On the other hand, the argument with which you could respond to my "complaint" is very simple: This planetary pursuit is set in a hypothetical future year 2650, where Pluto has regained its status as a planet .....

 

14 hours ago, niraD said:

I am not an astrophysicist, and I don't play one on TV, but if you asked me to list the planets, I would include Pluto. I might include a footnote about the IAU's decision, but I would definitely include Pluto.

Call it a mistake, or call it whimsy, but I would include Pluto.

Obviously in your game you can include whatever you want. You could even say that the Earth is flat or that the African countries are still British or French colonies (things that do not fit the evidence and / or the consensus), but it would be a pity if you did not take advantage of your influence (millions of users) to favor the dissemination of knowledge based on facts and scientific consensus.

Now think of those families with children who will go to this challenge and parents say
- Let's go for the nine planets of the solar system!
- But Daddy, at school they tell us that they are 8
- Nonsense, do not take Pluto into account? Pluto is a planet! even says GS.
- Oh, I suppose it will be true then.

When the ideal situation (and more rigorous) would have been this:
- But why is not Pluto in this challenge? These GS's do not know anything!
- No daddy, the planets of the solar system are 8, that Pluto has lost the category of planet because the scientists agreed that it did not have the necessary characteristics, they taught it to us at school!
- Oh! Well, we must learn a new thing and not assume that what they have taught us is written in stone. Thanks kids!

That's what I mean with my "complaint"

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7 hours ago, barefootjeff said:

I'm a bit underwhelmed, as it seems to be all about getting as many quick smilies as you can each day with a strong disincentive to go for the higher D/T caches that might take longer and more effort to find. This appears to be the way they want caching to go these days, though, so who am I to argue?

This is my biggest objection to this "challenge".
In my area, my prediction is that this will involve the publication of some PTs by "new users". The most veteran have the area very covered and do not have so many caches available to get the 10 souvenirs without moving really far, so it is likely that they have to "create" new caches to get it, almost certainly misteries (provide more points) with micros and a low D / T, that maybe would be undermaintained after the pursuit ends. My prediction is not free as it just happened because of a challenge proposed by a national community in which there were seven days in a row to find more caches than the previous day (a minimum of 28: 1+2+3+4+5+6+7), so a PT was published with just 28 caches.

And although there may not be anything wrong with this, in my opinion it shamelessly favors quantity over quality and adds a competitive component that I think does not benefit the game. But like @barefootjeff said: This appears to be the way they want caching to go these days, though, so who am I to argue?

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From King Lear, Act I, Scene v 

FOOL
Thy asses are gone about 'em. The reason why the
seven stars are no more than seven is a pretty reason.

KING LEAR
Because they are not eight?

FOOL
Yes, indeed: thou wouldst make a good fool.

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20 hours ago, SheepOnTrip said:

Exactly. We are always told how it takes too much effort and time to issue more than 5 country souvenirs, to justify how so many countries outside America+EU are being ignored - this game sounds much more time and energy consuming. So why not at least put up 5 more country souvenirs this year? Taiwan, for example, got much more caches than quite a few of the countries that got souvenirs in the last 3 years - why not include more people from more continents in the game with this small gesture?

And also - I don't understand the point of the league if it's an individual game, or what's the connection to the planets...

 

The best I can come up with is that Groundspeak HQ is located in the Fremont area of Seattle, which for those that have been there, will be is about as close as they'll ever get to visiting another planet.  ^_^

GS typically has released 5 or so souvenirs each year, usually in December.  it would probably take much less effort to release 5 new country/region souvenirs every couple of months than the amount of time and resources that they've put into this promotion.   And, they'd be making souvenirs for places that geocachers can actually visit and find a cache.

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21 hours ago, SheepOnTrip said:

Exactly. We are always told how it takes too much effort and time to issue more than 5 country souvenirs, to justify how so many countries outside America+EU are being ignored - this game sounds much more time and energy consuming. So why not at least put up 5 more country souvenirs this year? Taiwan, for example, got much more caches than quite a few of the countries that got souvenirs in the last 3 years - why not include more people from more continents in the game with this small gesture?

And also - I don't understand the point of the league if it's an individual game, or what's the connection to the planets...

 

I've never bought the time &  effort excuse,  I think the real reason why  they release souvenirs in small batches is so they can drip feed us treats every year. This promotion is another example of giving out occasional treats, which they have done every year for several years now. As for what's the connection to the planets, well I suppose it's just as much a connection as last years Pirates one.

 

 

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19 minutes ago, MartyBartfast said:

I've never bought the time &  effort excuse,  I think the real reason why  they release souvenirs in small batches is so they can drip feed us treats every year. This promotion is another example of giving out occasional treats, which they have done every year for several years now. As for what's the connection to the planets, well I suppose it's just as much a connection as last years Pirates one.

 

 

What made the Pirates one all the more baffling to me was that it was associated with the souvenir for Canada.  Maybe it's just me,  but I think of Canada,  I don't tend to associate the country with pirates.  

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Ok, let's take a step back here. :mmraspberry:

It's just a fun themed geocaching activity for a few weeks. Not even really a promotion, other than for geocaching itself. It doesn't seem to be tied to a launch, or an astronomical event. It's just a planet theme tied to finding cache types. It's not going to be optimal to encourage other aspects of caching, it's just to bring attention and exposure to other cache types for probably a great great number of casual cachers who may have not even yet known they exist, especially because some of them are more rare in certain areas or require additional resources or work.  It's slightly different than the prior promo (I use that loosely) because now there are progressively more challenging tiers so not everyone will get all the rewards.  I don't think that a bad thing at all. Not because 'ooh, bad, competition' but because it's good to push yourself towards success with the possibility of failure; that is life. Set a goal, or don't; play, or don't; do, or do not, there is no try-- wait, different theme.

It's just points rewarded, towards being given digital souvenirs, nothing super impressive or valuable.

I'm kind of humoured by the fact that there's so much debate about Pluto being in the list :).

Really this is just another little project that if it doesn't affect you then it's easily ignored. And if we play, then we can just have fun with it.

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I agree with Anpefi, both on the probable effect of the promotion , and the disappointing lack of  accuracy involved in including  Mickey Mouse's dog as a planet. Labels matter, inaccurate labels don't inspire confidence.

 " ... seven stars are no more than seven ..." surely that's a reference to the Pleiades or seven sisters (stars) rather than planets ... they are a well known test of eyesight , as most people will see only the 5 brightest unless they use the averted gaze trick and their eyes are very well dark adapted. Tudor playgoers would have been far more familiar with naked eye observation of dark skies than we are today.

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45 minutes ago, thebruce0 said:

It's slightly different than the prior promo (I use that loosely) because now there are progressively more challenging tiers so not everyone will get all the rewards. 

Indeed, and in previous years people complained that it was too easy to gain the souvenirs, now people complain it's too difficult - you can please some of the people all of the time, and you can please all of the people some of the time, but ....

 

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5 hours ago, anpefi said:

My post is not a formal complaint, but it is in a certain way serious. I am disappointed that GS makes this mistake (or whim, or what you might consider it) especially because in other facets they have always been very likely to make their activities with a clear educational side, and adjusted to scientific consensus (as shown by their partnership with the GSA for the Earthcaches). In my opinion it is a lost opportunity to make this game with Pluto listed as a planet. Obviously it is a game and the importance is relative to it, but it helps people continue to internalize Pluto as a planet (as shown.

I stand corrected.

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5 hours ago, anpefi said:

Now think of those families with children who will go to this challenge and parents say
- Let's go for the nine planets of the solar system!
- But Daddy, at school they tell us that they are 8
- Nonsense, do not take Pluto into account? Pluto is a planet! even says GS.
- Oh, I suppose it will be true then.

When the ideal situation (and more rigorous) would have been this:
- But why is not Pluto in this challenge? These GS's do not know anything!
- No daddy, the planets of the solar system are 8, that Pluto has lost the category of planet because the scientists agreed that it did not have the necessary characteristics, they taught it to us at school!
- Oh! Well, we must learn a new thing and not assume that what they have taught us is written in stone. Thanks kids!

That's what I mean with my "complaint"

Umm...yeah.  Neither of those discussions would happen.

Are these hypothetical families also going to talk about the "Friend League", the parents humbly admitting that most of the people listed as "friends" are people they never actually met?  "But Daddy, it says they're your friends! My whole existence is a lie!"

 

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14 hours ago, thebruce0 said:

I liked how LANMonkey gave tips for playing the promotion, and was able to thematically tie in the various aspects of the website in his recent blog post.

Odd that they first start out by saying

Quote

First things first - if you're going shoot for the stars (or the souvenirs) you'll need to build your team. Remember the Mary Hyde events and activities from last year? Well it's the very same system for the Friend League support to get you ship-shape and on your way.

and then point out

Quote


Pay attention that these are individual points in Friend League, so you'll have to earn those points yourself to get the souvenirs, not total points in your League.

The friend league page is only keeping score.  Unless they change the system that was already announced, building the team doesn't do anything, other than perhaps kindling a spirit of competition among groups of friends.

But, whatevs.  The rest of the blog is good, thanks for posting the link.

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Call me crazy, but with the recent email that just got sent by HQ, mentioning how to earn 5,000 favorite points, I have a suspicion the planetary pursuits might involve favorite points. Just a guess.

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Someone could use 5,000 FPs?  Only fifty-something left, I don't see us using most of them.  Maybe there's a  cache Eden somewhere we're not aware of, but we're not seeing 1 in 20 much less needing a bank of five grand here...    :D

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19 minutes ago, cerberus1 said:

Someone could use 5,000 FPs?  Only fifty-something left, I don't see us using most of them.  Maybe there's a  cache Eden somewhere we're not aware of, but we're not seeing 1 in 20 much less needing a bank of five grand here...    :D

Well I'm sure it's just a coincidence that the email mentioned 5,000 points, but I suspect if it is relevant, maybe, just maybe, each person's Friend league needs to accumulate finds of caches with 5,000 favorite points. I know, it's a big, wild, guess, based on nothing but the email. I think there's a 99% chance it's a coincidence.

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6 hours ago, MartyBartfast said:

Indeed, and in previous years people complained that it was too easy to gain the souvenirs, now people complain it's too difficult - you can please some of the people all of the time, and you can please all of the people some of the time, but ....

...or, you could try to find some middle ground where the requirements aren't so difficult that cachers in cache-poor/cached-out areas are effectively cut out, but aren't so easy that the hardcore cachers don't have a challenge. The Mary Hyde and Planetary Pursuit promotions seem to fall on either end of the spectrum. Maybe next year we'll get a "Goldilocks" promotion where the requirements are generally considered "fair" and the communication is clear?

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1 hour ago, The A-Team said:

you could try to find some middle ground where the requirements aren't so difficult that cachers in cache-poor/cached-out areas are effectively cut out

The problem with cachers in low-density areas (or who have cached out their home turf) is that they're always going to be disadvantaged by the souvenir promotion programs.  You have to log new finds to get new souvenirs, regardless of how easy or difficult the threshold is.  So if you've only got five near your house you haven't found, you're not going to do as well as someone with thousands nearby.

But then the game of geocaching generally slants against those folks as well -- they're just not going to get the opportunity to enjoy it as much unless they travel to where the caches are, or recruit others to the game that hide more caches.

I sympathize with folks who feel left out -- I lived in an area for a year that was pretty anemic as far as geocaching was concerned -- but ultimately, I don't think it's reasonable to expect Groundspeak to cater to them.  For this year's souvenir promotion, they'll get a few souvenirs on the low end of the planetary spectrum, even if they only get a couple finds, and if they want more, they're going to have to go get more.

If they wanted to make up some ground, cache-poor geocachers could always start submitting events now -- there's still time to get some published before this thing kicks off.

Edited by hzoi
clarity in para. 3
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2 hours ago, The A-Team said:

...or, you could try to find some middle ground where the requirements aren't so difficult that cachers in cache-poor/cached-out areas are effectively cut out, but aren't so easy that the hardcore cachers don't have a challenge.

I think you'd struggle to find a much better example of a "middle ground" than the Planetary Pursuits promotion, where you can participate and get a souvenir (Earth), for just 1 find and 3 for just 4 finds; whereas to get all the souvenirs you may need 100 finds. It seems to me to provide something for all levels.

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1 hour ago, hzoi said:

The problem with cachers in low-density areas (or who have cached out their home turf) is that they're always going to be disadvantaged by the souvenir promotion programs.  You have to log new finds to get new souvenirs, regardless of how easy or difficult the threshold is.  So if you've only got five near your house you haven't found, you're not going to do as well as someone with thousands nearby.

But then the game of geocaching generally slants against those folks as well -- they're just not going to get the opportunity to enjoy it as much unless they travel to where the caches are, or recruit others to the game that hide more caches.

The nature of geocaching means someone will always be at a disadvante if it's about logging finds (which are once-off).  Same issue we had with challenge caches and date restrictions. A heavy cacher may have a harder time qualifying past a date if they've cleared out their area. A new cacher will have to work to qualify for a challenge a veteran may already qualify for the day of publish. Veterans will spend more traveling greater distances for rarer caches whereas newer cachers may still have rare ones close to home.

In these promos, if you've already found a cache, it can't be used towards scoring. If points are gathered by logging finds, then tasks and goals will either be way too easy for half the cachers, or way too hard for the other half.  So yeah the trick is finding a middle ground.

Honestly, I don't think the hardest tier is really that hard! It's a 3 week promo. How many people will try to qualify on day 1? How many people will place and submit caches to publish before the end period to provide more qualifiers?  But, there will always be people who think something is too easy or too hard. Ain't no way around that unfortunately.

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55 minutes ago, thebruce0 said:

Honestly, I don't think the hardest tier is really that hard! It's a 3 week promo. How many people will try to qualify on day 1?

Not hard if a person wants to go log a bunch of LPCs but I'm certainly not going to change my caching habits to do that.  A hundred souvenirs wouldn't be enough!  But finding 34-100 QUALITY caches that can be reasonably accomplished in three weeks?  Now that's definitely a formidable challenge these days.  

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Sure. But that's a self imposed difficulty. I could make the challenge as hard as I want. I won't let myself qualify unless I find each cache in a different country.

That's not the point. The point is, "I don't think the hardest tier is really that hard!" No qualifiers as to the strategy, only to earn enough points to complete the hardest tier. It's really not that hard.

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Yes it is self imposed but I agree with you, it's not hard (if someone wants to do a bunch of LPCs).  I'm just disappointed that this promotional effort lures cachers toward that type of caching.

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As I see it, the 5 point LPC are not encouraged as much as the 15 points you earn for a Mystery, Earth cache or Event. Drop your personal tracker and add 4 points to each. (Be sure to retrieve it before you go on to the next cache, though.)

19 points each!

Edited by K13

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The Challenge Cache Guidelines prohibit -

"error.png Time-limited caching: as in some number of finds per day, week, month, or year. Example, Busy Day, 50 finds in a day, 500 finds in a month, etc."

Each of these nine new "challenges", oops I mean planets, requires finding a minimum number of caches in a span of 21 specific days.  I actually don't agree that this prohibition should have been put in place but I can only shake my head at the irony of it.  I guess these kinds of challenges are OK when Groundspeak rather than cachers create them and when the reward is a souvenir rather than a smilie.

Ok, rant over.  I now have to get busy and figure out what caches to not do before the 19th.  [;)]

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3 hours ago, K13 said:

As I see it, the 5 point LPC are not encouraged as much as the 15 points you earn for a Mystery, Earth cache or Event. Drop your personal tracker and add 4 points to each. (Be sure to retrieve it before you go on to the next cache, though.)

19 points each!

If you drop two trackers, do you score 8 points?

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5 hours ago, Team Hugs said:

If you drop two trackers, do you score 8 points?

Yes. 

And now comes the fun part, anyone could get the 10 souvenirs from his armchair. How? Simply put a note in any cache (better if it is archived) and drop off all (or some) trackables from your inventory. Then, you recover them all and you will have gained 4 * #TB points. You repeat in another cache and so on until you complete the 500 points. Simple, you can check it now (I did it and you can see what my League score is in the attached picture). At least if they don't change things for the beginning of the promotion.


I know it is not very fair or it goes against the spirit of the promotion, but I prefer that people do that instead to create ad hoc PTs to have caches to find. I think this is less harmful.

Screenshot from 2018-03-02 10-22-17.png

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20 minutes ago, anpefi said:

anyone could get the 10 souvenirs from his armchair.

That's pretty much true for any souvenir which can be obtained by anyone doing armchair logging. There's nothing new here.

 

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20 minutes ago, MartyBartfast said:

That's pretty much true for any souvenir which can be obtained by anyone doing armchair logging. There's nothing new here.

 

Well, the difference is that here you don't need to log any Found it/Attended nor altering your stats or any cache stats. You can make the cheat without disturbing anyone (by dropping the TBs in your archived caches, for example) and you can avoid that a owner can delete your log. In a souvenir that required found, for instance, a D/T 5/5, the CO could delete unlegitimate armchair logs (I know, that was not usual as there is a lot CO that didn't care about those logs for souvenirs)*, but here can just add a Note saying almost anything and dropping your TBs to get them back inmediatly. If they are your owned TBs and your archived cache, I find hard to get a legitimate reason to delete those logs/points.

 

*Not sure if in those souvenirs you kept the souvenir if the owner deleted the log. Anyway, that doesn't change the substantial reasoning of the differences.

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16 minutes ago, anpefi said:

Well, the difference is that here you don't need to log any Found it/Attended nor altering your stats or any cache stats. You can make the cheat without disturbing anyone (by dropping the TBs in your archived caches, for example) and you can avoid that a owner can delete your log.

Log a find, get the souvenir/points, delete the find, the souvenir/points stays; your stats aren't affected and as you deleted your own find then the CO can't delete it. If you really want to stay under the radar choose an archived cache with an inactive owner and no watchers. I still don't think it's any different to dropping off dozens of TBs.

In this game there are always going to be ways to play the system and it's not worth getting stressed about.

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16 minutes ago, MartyBartfast said:

 I still don't think it's any different to dropping off dozens of TBs.

You're right,

although I still think there are some differences (very subtle,true) at least in terms of legitimacy. By reductio ad absurdum, anyone could complain if I do Armchair Founds and show that I have not signed the logbook (although that protest is useless for souvenirs), but it is more difficult to argue that I have not been in a cache dropping and retrieving the same TBs for a while. And is that another nuance is that you can accumulate points with the TBs again and again in a single cache (I've checked it), but (if I'm not wrong, as I didn't check) you cannot add points by logging found and delete that found in a single cache.

 

Anyway, I understand what you mean and you are right in essence, there's nothing really new here, so I will stop this topic :anicute:

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5 hours ago, anpefi said:

By reductio ad absurdum

This applies in both directions. To the point of absolute ease by choosing to 'game' the system, and to absolute difficulty by limiting what you consider a valid find towards qualification to only extremely difficult caches.

The point to consider with this activity is the spirit of the activity, and average difficulty going by said spirit of the activity.  The range of difficulty from first to last souvenir is fairly wide, but the last souvenir isn't ridiculously hard, for I'd say a vast majority of cachers.  There will always be exceptions and outliers - people who don't cache much, can't do many cache styles, have no desire to cache more just for a souvenir, or have cached out their local area - of course. But arguing that these cases should influence what is reasonable for a majority is what leads of everyone-gets-the-prize mentality.

 

13 hours ago, icezebra11 said:

The Challenge Cache Guidelines prohibit -

"error.png Time-limited caching: as in some number of finds per day, week, month, or year. Example, Busy Day, 50 finds in a day, 500 finds in a month, etc."

Each of these nine new "challenges", oops I mean planets...

...nope, these are not Challenge Caches, guideline doesn't apply. And yep, Groundspeak sets the rules, so has no obligation to abide by the rules they set out for people who use their services anyway.

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32 minutes ago, thebruce0 said:
13 hours ago, icezebra11 said:

 

...nope, these are not Challenge Caches, guideline doesn't apply. And yep, Groundspeak sets the rules, so has no obligation to abide by

Yes, I realize that.  Apparently I wasn't sarcastic enough.

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5 hours ago, icezebra11 said:

Yes, I realize that.  Apparently I wasn't sarcastic enough.

I thought it was a serious point: if time-limited caching so hideous a thing to require that it's forbidden in challenge caches, how can they justify turning around and doing exactly the same thing for their souvenir challenges?

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11 hours ago, anpefi said:

And now comes the fun part, anyone could get the 10 souvenirs from his armchair. How? Simply put a note in any cache (better if it is archived) and drop off all (or some) trackables from your inventory. Then, you recover them all and you will have gained 4 * #TB points. You repeat in another cache and so on until you complete the 500 points. Simple, you can check it now (I did it and you can see what my League score is in the attached picture). At least if they don't change things for the beginning of the promotion.

You don't even have to cheat. Just take lots of TBs with you and drop them off and pick them back up for each cache you find. It sounds like a mere visit won't work, but what's the difference? As far as I can see, that would be perfectly legal even though all of us would go, "huh?"

Perhaps the scoring algorithm doesn't count drops followed by retrieves. That would make sense as a way to enforce the spirit of the "drop a tb" reward, and I can imagine implementing that restriction without bothering to spell out that detail when listing the ways to score.

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37 minutes ago, dprovan said:

I thought it was a serious point: if time-limited caching so hideous a thing to require that it's forbidden in challenge caches, how can they justify turning around and doing exactly the same thing for their souvenir challenges?

Because they're not challenge caches :P  and, because they're not cache listings owned by geocachers. And, because it's Groundspeak, who aren't bound by the same guidelines they set out for geocache owners.   I don't see how any argument can be made to parallel Challenge Cache guidelines/restrictions with a temporary entertainment themed promotion that rewards souvenirs by encouraging geocaching. ymmv.

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1 hour ago, thebruce0 said:

Because they're not challenge caches :P  and, because they're not cache listings owned by geocachers. And, because it's Groundspeak, who aren't bound by the same guidelines they set out for geocache owners.   I don't see how any argument can be made to parallel Challenge Cache guidelines/restrictions with a temporary entertainment themed promotion that rewards souvenirs by encouraging geocaching. ymmv.

I didn't ask how they could do it. That's obvious: they make the rules. I asked how they could justify it. It seems hypocritical to say it's OK when they require time-limited caching, but evil when a challenge cache owner requires time-limited caching. Of course, I don't think it's evil, so I never though it was justified to forbid it in challenge caches in the first place.

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2 hours ago, dprovan said:

I thought it was a serious point: if time-limited caching so hideous a thing to require that it's forbidden in challenge caches, how can they justify turning around and doing exactly the same thing for their souvenir challenges?

It was meant to be both but you nailed my sentiments exactly.  But maybe I shouldn't bother with the sarcasm attempts. B)

 

2 hours ago, thebruce0 said:

 

Because they're not challenge caches :P  and, because they're not cache listings owned by geocachers. And, because it's Groundspeak, who aren't bound by the same guidelines they set out for geocache owners.   I don't see how any argument can be made to parallel Challenge Cache guidelines/restrictions with a temporary entertainment themed promotion that rewards souvenirs by encouraging geocaching. ymmv.

They absolutely are challenges, just not challenge "caches."  There is an electronic reward for meeting a planetary challenge (a souvenir) and one for completing a challenge cache (a smilie).  The only difference in concept is there is no final container to sign for each planet challenge.  Challenge caches in general are intended to encourage geocaching just as much as a souvenir promotion.  

And I also will go a little further with my snarky comment about figuring out which caches I won't be finding before the 19th.  This is another way this promotional goes against GS's philosophy regarding challenges - it is creating an incentive to not log caches from now until the 19th.  Trying to keep a streak going aside, why go out and cache before the 19th when finds will count for more then?  How many people who really want the souvenirs actually wouldn't slow down or stop for a few weeks if it will make it easier for them to get the souvenirs?  I'd be interested to see GS publish the daily Found It statistics for the period that starts about two months before the announcement and ends about two months after the promotion's logging period closes.  There surely will be a significant uptick in finds during the three weeks of the promotion because it will get people out as intended.  But I'd also venture to guess there will be a noticable decrease in finds logged leading up to the 19th and probably even after April 8th due to people being tired of caching during the "Planetary Frenzy."

"And, because it's Groundspeak, who aren't bound by the same guidelines they set out for geocache owners." And therein lies the real rub.

Edited by icezebra11
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2 hours ago, icezebra11 said:

They absolutely are challenges, just not challenge "caches."

Completely, absolutely, dramatically different context. So nope, the same regulations don't apply.

 

2 hours ago, icezebra11 said:

and one for completing a challenge cache (a smilie)

You forgot going out to sign the logsheet of said challenge cache.

 

2 hours ago, icezebra11 said:

it is creating an incentive to not log caches from now until the 19th

That much I'll agree with.

 

3 hours ago, dprovan said:

I asked how they could justify it.

First, they don't claim time limits on challenge caches are "evil". They deny them now as requirements for challenge caches for practical reasons that relate directly to a fair ability for everyone to log said caches as found having qualified, after long and extensive community discussions and debates in the forum, and most likely long and heavy discussion within GS walls about the benefits and drawbacks of whether it should be allowed or not.  Many, many reasons relating specifically to geocaches and logging challenge caches.

These are not challenge caches. They have no containers to maintain. They have no owners. They have no need for maintenance.

The fact that "it's Groundspeak" really even isn't relevant, because it's not a matter of Groundspeak publishing challenge caches rather than regular geocachers. It's Groundspeak running a bonus fun promotion that intended to get people out geocaching and possibly even finding caches people may not know of or have found previously.

I do agree that the nature of announcing the details of the promo early may encourage people not to find caches until that time period, so they have more caches to find to gain points.  Clearly GS has decided that since this is only a 3 week period, and not a Challenge Cache, then it is something they're willing to do.  I see no problem with that, certainly no hypocrisy.

It is what it is. Have fun with it. I don't get why some people are so critical. :mellow:

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I'm not sure how much this promotion will inhibit geocaching until it starts. The majority of cachers live in places where it is winter right now.  I'm waiting for yesterday's snow to melt a bit before I go out for a cache that I need today (specifically today) to complete a challenge, otherwise I would likely not cache today.

The promotion may have the net effect of increasing the total number of caches found in the first four months of the year by encouraging people to get out as the weather gets a bit better.

There are several many stage multicaches that I have been working on a bit at a time (I bike to them.) Now looks like a good time to pick off some more stages so that I'll be ready to sign them when the promotion starts.

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25 minutes ago, Michaelcycle said:

'm not sure how much this promotion will inhibit geocaching until it starts.

This may indeed be a factor. There was a series of 42 Letterbox caches published in our area a week or so before the details of this promo were released, someone pointed out on a FB group that this series, which is easily doable in a day, would nett 420 points, add in a few trads on the trail,  a few  of multis in the area and drop off a few TBs and you could easily get 500 points in one outing. I suspect there will be people putting off doing these caches until the promo starts, and then it will suddenly get pretty busy out there.

 

 

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1 hour ago, MartyBartfast said:

This may indeed be a factor. There was a series of 42 Letterbox caches published in our area a week or so before the details of this promo were released, someone pointed out on a FB group that this series, which is easily doable in a day, would nett 420 points, add in a few trads on the trail,  a few  of multis in the area and drop off a few TBs and you could easily get 500 points in one outing. I suspect there will be people putting off doing these caches until the promo starts, and then it will suddenly get pretty busy out there.

 

 

Given the weather, how many people are likely to go out for a whole day in 5-8°C rainy conditions (your area) just to log a bunch of caches?  Of course some people would but I suspect more people would wait for better weather...which is more likely in many parts of the more geocaching-intensive parts of the world in a few weeks when this promotion starts.

A review of the logging statistics after the fact should give us some idea of how it worked out (I recall seeing monthly data somewhere a while back)

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On 3/3/2018 at 10:25 AM, Michaelcycle said:

Given the weather, how many people are likely to go out for a whole day in 5-8°C rainy conditions (your area) just to log a bunch of caches?

Sorry but I have to kind of chuckle at that :)  You wouldn't believe what geocachers (especially around here) will do "just" to find caches. Chances are, if they're willing to hold off finding caches for a reason like this, 5-8 degrees and rain are pretty much nothing to endure.

And as it's a 3 week promo, a day or two like that isn't a threat anyway. A 3 week window to hold off and find a series of caches like that is certainly an enticing prospect.

 

On 3/3/2018 at 10:25 AM, Michaelcycle said:

A review of the logging statistics after the fact should give us some idea of how it worked out (I recall seeing monthly data somewhere a while back)

Yeah, and I wouldn't be surprised if there's a slight uptick in geocaching after a downtick just before the event.

Even so, I'd bet GS would see that as a good thing - since they're not challenge caches, the overall increase in geocaching during that 3 week period would likely offset any slower prior geocaching as people hold off to find them until then.

Edited by thebruce0

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