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Outspoken1

Rewrite/clarification of Figurative Public Scupltures

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Hi everyone:

Just letting you know that I am working on a rewrite/clarification for Figurative after discussions in this thread . As I understand, the membership does not mind the removal of 'additive vs subtractive'. I also note that the restriction of cross-posting should be removed. I am researching clearer definitions of figurative (since there are really no clear-cut lines in art!) to clarify and simplify the category. I will also clarify Sillhouette and Abstract, if need be. Again, my goal is inclusiveness of sculptures - just trying to sort them into the best-fit category. Please suggest any clarifications or wording that may help me. I have taken notes on suggestions already given in the above thread.

Thanks for your patience, Outspoken1

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12 hours ago, Outspoken1 said:

Hi everyone:

Just letting you know that I am working on a rewrite/clarification for Figurative after discussions in this thread . As I understand, the membership does not mind the removal of 'additive vs subtractive'. I also note that the restriction of cross-posting should be removed. I am researching clearer definitions of figurative (since there are really no clear-cut lines in art!) to clarify and simplify the category. I will also clarify Sillhouette and Abstract, if need be. Again, my goal is inclusiveness of sculptures - just trying to sort them into the best-fit category. Please suggest any clarifications or wording that may help me. I have taken notes on suggestions already given in the above thread.

Thanks for your patience, Outspoken1

Sandy - I’ll help you however I can :) I enjoy Waymarking in all those categories 

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I am working this week - probably won't get to writing until the weekend. I really con't think there is too much to do to fix the problems people reported. I will note the changes/clarifications in this thread as soon as I get things written and (if my friend the editor has time - reviewed for grammar and clarity!!).

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Thanks for the update on one of the most active categories! Hope to be submitting a lot more with these restrictions being lifted.

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So I am working on the Fig category. A couple of thoughts that I have had. Additive/subtractive is so confusing, so I think that should be removed. I am working on words that more clearly explain Figurative (which as with all art, is pliable and only limited by an artist's creation).

The suggestion that if there is a specific category for the sculpture, such as bears, lions, etc., does make sense. It is not to try to eliminate cross-posting. It is the fact that those categories were created before or being created when Figurative was proposed in 2007 (ex., Bears was created in 2009, Lions in 2006; Police Memorials in 2007). If Fig accepts all of those other specific categories, then why have those categories? Is Waymarking about finding and recording unique 'things' or just cross-posting to run up numbers so 'someone' 'wins' Waymarking? I do enjoy creating new Waymarks and cross-posting if there are unique features that fit specific categories, but those categories were created with the understanding that they are documenting a specific incident of an item instead of the entire unit (which means a Church which is the overall unit may fit in the Old Church category, the religion of that church, bell tower, bell, stained glass, etc, BUT there are also non-Church related locations that have stained glass, bells, etc.). The primary reason I can see to remove the limitation (which was approved by the membership when Fig was approved in 2007) of, for instance, bears (with 756 Waymarks), lions (with 1773 Waymarks), etc. , is to allow cross-posting of old Waymarks to run up numbers so someone can 'win'. Is this really adding the uniqueness of Waymarking or just pushing out redundant data?

Second consideration is the development of a mass-cast figure that is then sold and painted to reflect the theme of that city. Examples include the many world-wide Cow parades such as Cow Sculpture or Texas A&M University-Central Texas Hippo . I would see these more as Murals instead of Fig since their purpose is to be cleverly painted to reflect a theme - which is a mural. Should these rather go to Murals (with all current ones being Grandfathered) or is this overthinking?

Since a Figurative piece of a war memorial is accepted (usually the soldier or soldiers), should a Figurative piece on a Police or Fire Fighter or other first responder, etc., be allowed? I am thinking that is fine. I am assuming allegories such as Justice, Peace, etc., which were not originally prohibited, are acceptable (as we have been accepting them). Known figures should probably remain excluded since there are many other categories where they can be placed and that is the original 2007 criteria.

Really, the subtractive-additive kerfuffle seems to be the biggest issue to remove. The overall category has been working fine with the guidelines that were created and approved by the membership in 2007 as I scanned thru the category submissions over the last couple of hours. What busy Waymarkers we have been!!

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I sure am glad that I am not taking on your task. 

First consideration...I thought that (one of the reasons that) the Figurative Public Sculpture category was created so that figures other than the bears, dogs, lions, insects and dinosaurs would also have a home.

Second consideration...your description reminds me of the Fiberglass Horses category.  In that case, they are considered Statues rather than Sculptures or Murals.

 

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Outspoken,

For the most part I agree with all your decisions of what to keep and what to continue to decline. Status Quo works for me in terms of what is acceptable and what is not. Sculptures on, for example, firemen's or police memorials, since they are much like war memorials in both concept and execution, should be treated similarly.

I would, however, definitely stay away from the word "murals". It would only cause you more grief, as the dictionary definition of "Mural" does not include cows, hippos or any other non two dimensional figures or objects.

I think your category has run quite nicely all these years EXCEPT for the "additive" vs "subtractive" debacle. A small rewrite is, IMHO, all that is required. Don't go beating yourself up over it. Just one or two tiny snips and you're done.

Keith

Edited by BK-Hunters
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I agree, just delete all sentences about "Additive" vs "substractive" in both categories will be enought, after it's "overthinking"

I also agree to leave "If the Waymark can be posted in another category, that is where it belongs first", because cross-posting is not the problem, if waymarkers publish only in Figurative category, that could kill others categories.

And i would delete requirement of "Artist name" and "Date created and placed" because when we do not have a plaque, it's quite impossible to know.

I give you three examples, they deserve to be published in the figurative category but i have no informations about and i did not published them

CrocodileGrenouille and Dauphin

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1 hour ago, Alfouine said:

I give you three examples, they deserve to be published in the figurative category but i have no informations about and i did not published them

Alfouine, we have approved submissions that do not have "artist name" or Date created and placed" . The last two approved submissions also lack this information. Though this information is desirable, it is not "required" . I suggest you submit them. 

From the category: "A minimum of two clear photographs of the Figurative Public Sculpture and a photo of the plaque (if there is one)."

"The Long Description must include a description of the sculpture and the location of the sculpture. If you can find any information about the piece and/or the artist, that would be wonderful to include."

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2 hours ago, BK-Hunters said:

Alfouine, we have approved submissions that do not have "artist name" or Date created and placed" . The last two approved submissions also lack this information. Though this information is desirable, it is not "required" . I suggest you submit them. 

From the category: "A minimum of two clear photographs of the Figurative Public Sculpture and a photo of the plaque (if there is one)."

"The Long Description must include a description of the sculpture and the location of the sculpture. If you can find any information about the piece and/or the artist, that would be wonderful to include."

I understand, but why maintain "Required" if it's not required, may be it could be changed in "Required if exist"

May be i am not the only one to think it's not possible to publish a waymark without filling required variables...

And thank you, i will publish them

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Alfouine, I should have looked at the submission form to see: "Name, Figure Type, Artist Name, Date created or placed and Materials used" are [required]. I just read the requirement information. However that said, you could fill in the [required] such as:

Name [required]: Unknown or use one that is appropriate to the sculpture like your example Crocodile

Figure Type [required]:

Artist Name [required]: Unknown

Date created or placed [required]: Unknown

Materials used [required]:

 "Unknown" is accepted in these fields.


 

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1 hour ago, BK-Hunters said:

Alfouine, I should have looked at the submission form to see: "Name, Figure Type, Artist Name, Date created or placed and Materials used" are [required]. I just read the requirement information. However that said, you could fill in the [required] such as:

Name [required]: Unknown or use one that is appropriate to the sculpture like your example Crocodile

Figure Type [required]:

Artist Name [required]: Unknown

Date created or placed [required]: Unknown

Materials used [required]:

 "Unknown" is accepted in these fields.


 

Perfect, it could be great to add this information in the description like in the point 4, (or unknown, if not known)

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My computer died on Wednesday, the 7th. Spent the weekend getting the new system running, so I did not get to read comments or work on the category. Sorry. I am not blowing anyone off - just lost my computer.

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On 2/11/2018 at 1:44 AM, Alfouine said:

I agree, just delete all sentences about "Additive" vs "substractive" in both categories will be enought, after it's "overthinking"

I also agree to leave "If the Waymark can be posted in another category, that is where it belongs first", because cross-posting is not the problem, if waymarkers publish only in Figurative category, that could kill others categories.

And i would delete requirement of "Artist name" and "Date created and placed" because when we do not have a plaque, it's quite impossible to know.

I give you three examples, they deserve to be published in the figurative category but i have no informations about and i did not published them

CrocodileGrenouille and Dauphin

Dear Alfouine:

I looked at the photos of the croc, frog and dolphin. First, whenever a Waymark is declined, the Leader/Officer has to give a reason why it was declined. Since these are only photos, I don't know what the submitted Waymark looked like. The Dolphin looks temporary (My first analysis - sitting on pallets, not mounted to a plinth or the ground); the croc looks like it is part of a fountain; the frog looks fine. Again, I do not know why they were declined, but the reviewer should have left a comment as to the issue(s). May not have had enough photos, etc. I can't speak for all reviewers, but I always leave a comment as to why a Waymark is declined.

Outspoken1

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On 2/11/2018 at 6:15 AM, Alfouine said:

I understand, but why maintain "Required" if it's not required, may be it could be changed in "Required if exist"

May be i am not the only one to think it's not possible to publish a waymark without filling required variables...

And thank you, i will publish them

Dear Alfouine:

I don't think I can remove variables since they are part of the HTML 'format' of the category. Would removing a variable delete that variable on all the previous Waymarks? Besides, simply putting in 'unknown' works. I have never declined if the artist was not listed if there was not a plaque. I have declined when none of the variables are filled in and explained that in the decline. If it is a new Waymarker, I will thoroughly explain that each category has different requirements and to click on 'show additional information' to learn the special requirements for that category. If it is an experienced Waymarker, I figure they were in a hurry and just forgot. IF (big if) I have time, I have sometimes just edited the Waymark and added the info. But since I review in many categories and work and have other responsibilities and try to keep my review que empty, I just don't always have time to edit. I will try to make the variables clearer in explanation (poor grammar, but I think you know what I mean.

Outspoken1

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Hey everyone:

These comments are great! All of this is doable. Thaks for your time and experience!!

Outspoken1

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8 hours ago, Outspoken1 said:

Would removing a variable delete that variable on all the previous Waymarks?

I asked about doing this in one of our categories, and was told that it would remove all the variable information for all previously approved waymarks. I opted not to remove the variable. I wanted to change the multi line address to just a text box for convenience, but did not want to lose the previous address information. 

Edited by BK-Hunters

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16 hours ago, Outspoken1 said:

Would removing a variable delete that variable on all the previous Waymarks?

I never asked to delete variables, just clarify description for these two required variables with "unknown, if not known"

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OK, I have tweaked Figurative and Silhouette to remove the additive-subtractive words as requested by the membership. There have been no major changes to the category - just cleaned up the grammar in some sentences and added the word 'personally' obtained photos and coords since a few people have submitted Waymarks from Google Earth, etc. This is not a new requirement - it was always inferred, but many other categories have added this clarification over the years to help leaders/officers if they have to deny a Waymark. I have added words to the variables to clarify that 'unknown' may be used if the Waymarkers does not know the information as requested by the membership. If there are errors or unintended inferences, please let me know so they may be addressed.

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37 minutes ago, Outspoken1 said:

OK, I have tweaked Figurative and Silhouette to remove the additive-subtractive words as requested by the membership. There have been no major changes to the category - just cleaned up the grammar in some sentences and added the word 'personally' obtained photos and coords since a few people have submitted Waymarks from Google Earth, etc. This is not a new requirement - it was always inferred, but many other categories have added this clarification over the years to help leaders/officers if they have to deny a Waymark. I have added words to the variables to clarify that 'unknown' may be used if the Waymarkers does not know the information as requested by the membership. If there are errors or unintended inferences, please let me know so they may be addressed.

Excellent, Thank you very much

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Coming to this late but I looked at the description. It said funeral, cemetery statues should be way marked elsewhere. I remember a category proposed for them, did it survive?

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On 11.7.2018 at 7:33 PM, ripraff said:

Coming to this late but I looked at the description. It said funeral, cemetery statues should be way marked elsewhere. I remember a category proposed for them, did it survive?

 

http://www.Waymarking.com/cat/details.aspx?f=1&guid=4fa5d658-c8fd-4103-b450-fab74b6e564d&gid=6&exp=True

 

Not sure if Doug is still working on it.

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I found the old topic, it was awhile ago. I see the link with the category. What is the next step?

 

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