Dealing with “driving directions” that lead to tresspass.

[+Doc_musketeers]

So we just had a hide published that is placed on a fenceline at the back of a public park. The opposite side of that fence line belongs to a trailer park. The problem is that if you click on the Google Maps directions from the App it takes you to a cul-de-sac inside the trailer park instead of the roadside parking in front of the City Park. That’s the wrong side of the fenceline to find the cache, and could bring unwanted traffic into the trailer park. The management is aware of the cache and permitted placement on their fence line - but with the idea that it was accessible from the public side.

We’ve tried to be clear in our description, but notice that fewer and fewer cachers seem to read even shorter descriptions.

Any ideas how to mitigate this problem?

[+kunarion]

Add a waypoint for a suggested parking spot, and mention that the cache is accessed from City Park, and “not the cul-de-sac”, or whatever might clear up confusion. I don't know what fewer cachers do, but I appreciate the extra info when I'm trying to figure out how to get to a cache. Especially when the street routing is sending me into a suburb.

[+Doc_musketeers]

I just had a D’oh! moment and realized one option would be to post additional waypoint for parking ... that still requires the cacher to notice and select that option so I’m still curious about others’ ideas.

[+Doc_musketeers]

11 minutes ago, kunarion said:

Add a waypoint for a suggested parking spot, and mention that the cache is accessed from City Park, and “not the cul-de-sac”, or whatever might clear up confusion. I don't know what fewer cachers do, but I appreciate the extra info when I'm trying to figure out how to get to a cache. Especially when the street routing is sending me into a suburb.

I posted my “D’oh” comment as you posted this wise reply. Thanks

[+kunarion]

It often depends on the cacher's approach.

Once I was trying to hunt a cache and the Nuvi kept sending me onto industrial property. I might park in a factory's parking lot, but then I have to go around the fence in back. Plus there were guard gates at some of them, and the closest gate was for air traffic control! It took me quite a while to figure out that I had to go to the other side of town, and approach the back of the industrial area. The COs live there and know where the trails are, most local cachers do, too. So they never thought to specify which side of town to be on, for poor fools like me who aren't familiar with the area. I don't think any of them have added any such info to their cache pages to this day.

[+Doc_musketeers]

Yeah. And I think a lot of us exploring types have had the experience of caching or even just hiking in some area and you come out at a fenceline with “No Trespassing” signs and somehow you’ve gotten on the wrong side

We use the App for most urban hunts and plug coordinates into the Garmin when we need extra accuracy or are in the woods and might loose signal to the iPhone. On the app we toggle between maps - street and satellite view. The fenceline at the Cache we just hid is obvious on the satellite image but a street map or topo doesn’t let you see structures like that and the nearest street might not allow access.

Edited January 19, 2018 by Doc_musketeers

[+noncentric]

I think the already mentioned use of a parking waypoint is the best approach. Most cachers should be able to use good judgment when driving directions lead them into an area that 'doesn't seem public', so hopefully they would stop and double-check their approach if they see that they're entering a trailer park. Then they may see that there's a parking waypoint and get directions to that location instead of the cache location.

Noting something like "Approach cache from the public park. Do not enter the trailer park. See parking waypoint." in the first lines of the cache description would be a good additional step. Maybe type it in all caps?  The first few lines of cache descriptions shows up on the app when the cache is selected, without having to press "Read More", so hopefully cachers will notice your notice.

If it becomes an issue, then you could archive the cache and create a multi or mystery cache instead. Using the same hide location, you could put the cache icon at the park entrance or some other location that would not tempt cachers to go through the trailer park. For a multi, you could have cachers use a sign that's at the cache icon location to derive the final coords. For a mystery, you could have cachers answer questions at home and mention in the cache description that the cache should be accessed from the park. Cachers would have to read your cache description to get the final coords, so they would be much more likely to see your note about approaching from the park.

[+arisoft]

4 hours ago, Doc_musketeers said:

I just had a D’oh! moment and realized one option would be to post additional waypoint for parking ... that still requires the cacher to notice and select that option so I’m still curious about others’ ideas.

Many geocachers are using parking waypoints to navigate, this is a good start. The second best place for any important information is the additional hint section in the description. I think that it will be read more probably than the description itself.

Sometimes a geocache has been published as a multi or mystery to make it clear that the starting point is also the suggested parking place.

Edited January 19, 2018 by arisoft

[+NYPaddleCacher]

6 hours ago, kunarion said:

Add a waypoint for a suggested parking spot, and mention that the cache is accessed from City Park, and “not the cul-de-sac”, or whatever might clear up confusion. I don't know what fewer cachers do, but I appreciate the extra info when I'm trying to figure out how to get to a cache. Especially when the street routing is sending me into a suburb.

I've seen this done on cache listings for a cache that was close to major highway and included in big, bold letters not to attempt the cache from the highway.  Of course, you can't force everyone to read the cache listing, but you can mitigate that somewhat by making the cache an mystery/unknown (too late for one already published).  

[+thebruce0]

Yep, also suggest
1. Additional waypoint (and reference it in the description)
2. Make it bold and clear in the descrpition not to approach from the trailer park
3. Puit at the very beginning of the description
4. In case there are still people who don't read anything and just go to the waypoint, put something in the cache title to tell people
5. If all else fails, archive the listing

The worst thing is, you can only do so much. If people still insist on trespassing, the property owner can still get angry and geocaching gets the bad rap, even though you did all you can do. At that point the only question left is - is it worth keeping it at that location?

[+kunarion]

1 hour ago, thebruce0 said:

you can only do so much. If people still insist on trespassing, the property owner can still get angry and geocaching gets the bad rap, even though you did all you can do. At that point the only question left is - is it worth keeping it at that location?

 

I've only had one cache that I know had an issue of trespassing. GZ was 100 feet away from a concrete wall. The other side of that wall was an off-limits government facility. A caching couple tried to get onto that property, and wrote an angry log about how I placed a cache where someone might get arrested. Until then (and afterwards), people found it without “trespassing”. It was the couple's first and I guess only cache hunt. And it was the only cache I had cross-listed on Opencaching.com, and the DNF was the only log it ever got there. AND it was pretty much impossible to contact opencachers.

Due to the incident, I added info to the Geocaching.com listing (and the OC one). But until then, I would not have imagined the extra info was needed (like “Don't try to get into the government facility with all those posted signs, the cache coordinates are in the public park”). If people can't understand where GZ isn't, what additional words will they heed?

Anyway, I think my point is that you can add some helpful info, but take it on a cache-by-cache basis, and if there's a problem, try a new idea after it happens. Most of the time, cachers will figure it out just fine. And keep in mind that the featherbrained probably cannot be reached.

[+hzoi]

1 hour ago, thebruce0 said:

Yep, also suggest
1. Additional waypoint (and reference it in the description)
2. Make it bold and clear in the descrpition not to approach from the trailer park
3. Puit at the very beginning of the description
4. In case there are still people who don't read anything and just go to the waypoint, put something in the cache title to tell people
5. If all else fails, archive the listing

The worst thing is, you can only do so much. If people still insist on trespassing, the property owner can still get angry and geocaching gets the bad rap, even though you did all you can do. At that point the only question left is - is it worth keeping it at that location?

Agree with all of these.

There will still be folks who don't pay attention to mitigating factors 1-4.  Not much you can do about that, which is why #5 may be the nuclear option.  I'd just add an option 4.5, which is to give a heads up to the property owner(s) who may be affected, in the hopes that they will gently redirect folks who wander down their driveway and not just sic the dog on them.  The wisdom of this option is going to depend on conditions on the ground, though, so that's up to you.

[+J Grouchy]

I suppose it's too late to make it an offset cache...

I don't know how your reviewer publishes those...if he'd let a traditional be published that way, but occasionally I will run across one.  Normally I think it would be either a multi or a mystery, where the posted coordinates might be further inside the public park to avoid confusion, then provide a bearing and distance to the cache.  I guess it could also be a letterbox hybrid, where the coordinates are the starting point and written directions to the cache are in the description.

 

[+arisoft]

43 minutes ago, J Grouchy said:

I guess it could also be a letterbox hybrid, where the coordinates are the starting point and written directions to the cache are in the description.

One of the best ideas I have seen was used in a challenge cache. Usually challenges are at the posted coordinates but this is not the only option. It is also allowed to use visible waypoint as the final coordinate. In that case the CO used parking lot for posted coordinates and additional waypoint for the cache. This way practically everyone starts from the parking lot as designed.

Edited January 19, 2018 by arisoft

[+Doc_musketeers]

Thanks for all the ideas. I hadn’t thought of actually modifying cache type to avoid this issue, it’s something to consider for future hides. I think I’ll start checking where the road map apps are actually sending people to get to the cache before submitting it. 

in this case the manager of the property is a friend so even if it were an issue it wouldn’t lead to a bad rap for Geocaching. I did adjust the description and provide a Parking Waypoint.

its just funny because I’d considered a number of spots around this area BECAUSE my connection to the trailer park management would make access and maintenance easy and open. But they are trying to fight constant incursion of “riff raff” into the trailer park itself. Having us decidedly oddball folks in the mix wouldn’t be good for anyone. This seemed like the perfect spot since it was easily accessible from City (public) property but placed on a privately owned fenceline that I had access to. It cracked me up that Google then had people driving all the way through the trailer park, parking in a private cul-de-sac, walking through a private field, and still ending up on the wrong side of the fenceline to reach the cache anyway! Lol

 

[+dprovan]

49 minutes ago, Doc_musketeers said:

in this case the manager of the property is a friend so even if it were an issue it wouldn’t lead to a bad rap for Geocaching.

This is perfect. As I was reading over this, I could see that everyone's making good suggestions, but mostly they're all ways to avoid the basic problem of people looking for caches without either using their heads or reading the description. If they'd done either, they wouldn't end up in the trailer park. Since the person affected is your friend, perhaps this would be a perfect chance to teach some people a lesson. Regardless of any mitigation you do based on suggestions here, talk it over with your friend and give him a plan for dealing with interlopers when he spots them. I mean, just basically coming out and demonstrate his understanding of the problem and pointing out the results could have been much worse if someone else owned the trailer park would be good, but personally, I'd encourage him to have fun with it, even putting the fear of the lord into people's hearts first before letting them off the hook by talking to them about what they did wrong.

There's no real solution to this problem other than not putting a cache there, but perhaps you and your friend could use the challenge to make the world a better place. If you want.

[+cerberus1]

15 hours ago, kunarion said:

Add a waypoint for a suggested parking spot, and mention that the cache is accessed from City Park, and “not the cul-de-sac”, or whatever might clear up confusion.

Yep.  One new(er) one near me on game lands states on the cache page that although there is a trailhead on the other side of it, the development it belongs doesn't like having the cul-de-sac blocked on "what they deem" private property, and there have been issues.  They include a waypoint to the longer, less confrontational avenue to access on the cache page. 

Most so far have come from the "shorter" end...  

[+niraD]

FWIW, I have found caches where the main point of the cache was to figure out a safe, legal approach to GZ. But in those cases, the obvious (but wrong) approaches were public property like freeways, not private property like private streets.

And I have seen caches archived because the neighbors were harassing geocachers who parked on "their street". It didn't matter that the cache was on a public trail, accessed via a public trailhead, in compliance with the managing agency's written geocaching policy. It didn't matter that the parking around the trailhead was public on-street parking along a public street. The neighbors decided that it was "their street" and "their parking".

[+jellis]

Parking or reference points are good but most experienced cachers would figure out how to access the proper way no matter what the GPS auto routing, Google or Waze says.

[+thebruce0]

12 hours ago, jellis said:

Parking or reference points are good but most experienced cachers would figure out how to access the proper way no matter what the GPS auto routing, Google or Waze says.

Yep, but this isn't a case of "experienced cachers" or not. Per the OP, it was a regular occurence that cachers were routing the closest route over private land by google maps regardless of any indication otherwise.

That said, I think even a lot of 'experienced cachers' trust google's routing and don't assume that it could errantly have them route through private land. If the app takes you there, then surely there isn't a problem with the route... well even google can be wrong sometimes Really it's just a matter of them having the proper data.

Perhaps the trailer park should inform Google where the entrance to the park is and that it crosses into private roads. That's another alternative...

[+Viajero Perdido]

Whatever happened to personal responsibility?

If a cacher's eyes are open enough to drive (and juggle a map app), they should be open enough to see no trespassing signs.

Then it's a judgement call on their part.  Their responsibility.  (It's even in the disclaimer we tend to whoosh right by.)

[+Doc_musketeers]

2 hours ago, thebruce0 said:

 cachers were routing the closest route over private land by google maps regardless of any indication otherwise.

That said, I think even a lot of 'experienced cachers' trust google's routing and don't assume that it could errantly have them route through private land. If the app takes you there, then surely there isn't a problem with the route... well even google can be wrong sometimes Really it's just a matter of them having the proper data.

Perhaps the trailer park should inform Google where the entrance to the park is and that it crosses into private roads. That's another alternative...

 

2 hours ago, Viajero Perdido said:

Whatever happened to personal responsibility?

If a cacher's eyes are open enough to drive (and juggle a map app), they should be open enough to see no trespassing signs.

Then it's a judgement call on their part.  Their responsibility.  (It's even in the disclaimer we tend to whoosh right by.)

There’s also the definition of “Tresspass” to consider. If you are navigating to the address of a trailer to visit the occupant, that’s not Trespassing. These are “private” roads but there aren’t “No Trespassing” signs, although there are signs forbidding door-to-door sales, etc. The directions from Google park you at the end of a cul-de-sac. The field between you and the cache IS private property intended for the use of the trailer park tenants. No one is going to get arrested for walking out there, but they could be rightfully asked to leave and the management doesn’t want random people wandering around - and again you can’t reach the cache from here anyway!

To clarify, this HASN’T happened yet, I was just flabbergasted to see the directions provided and the potential.

I’ll admit that if I’m caching alone, I follow Google Maps since I’m driving. If I’m unfamiliar with an area, how would I know how I’m “supposed to” approach GZ? Sure I don’t intentionally pass No Trespassing signs, and I expect that a cache named after a City Park will be IN the public space of that park, but if I’m led to a cul-de-sac with an open field beyond, and the cache is indicated across that field, I wouldn’t have a clear way to know there was anything amiss - if  I hadn’t read it in the description!

[+Doc_musketeers]

3 hours ago, Viajero Perdido said:

If a cacher's eyes are open enough to drive (and juggle a map app) ...

I agree with your point in general, but most of the time now, we aren’t staring at the map app. When I’m urban caching alone:

1) Using my iPhone, I see a cache I want to find

2) I read the description, mainly looking for clues as to general location and hide type. I might even check out some logs.

3) I hit “start” and then the “Directions” arrow icon and select Google Maps. Maybe I check to see how close I can park to GZ. If the cache is described as a P&G then I probably don’t even look.

4) I begin driving while LISTENING to the directions.

5) while driving I would hopefully notice any warning signage, but if I’m maneuvering through residential roads I'm not overly analyzing each turn.

6) once I’ve “Arrived” I may or may not glance again at the Google App map. More likely than not I’ll switch back to the Geocaching App so as to use its direction/distance indicators. I hop out and follow the directional line. Short of signage, gates, obviously walking into someone’s front yard, etc. I wouldn’t necessarily have any reason to question my direction of approach.

my point is that while driving in an unfamiliar neighborhood, map reading skills aren’t really at play. Without some contraindication, I’d tend to trust my navigational app.

When I’m traveling and ask Siri for directions to the nearest gas station, I don’t pull over and analyze the route. I wouldn’t challenge it unless I saw something while driving that raised concerns. That’s just how most people use navigational software, not a failure of responsibility. The problem is that Geocaches are seldom at an actual address and the map app just gets you as close as it can on the road, which DOES require us to be a bit more aware.

 

 

Edited January 20, 2018 by Doc_musketeers
Typo

[+Doc_musketeers]

 

Just for context, here’s an actual screenshot of Google directions to the “private” cup-de-sac. In this Satellite view you can at least see the fenceline and maybe realize the problem. The proper approach (as now indicated by a Parking Waypoint we added) is right before the parking lot for the Montessori.

Sure, an observant cacher looking at this map should notice the fact that there appears to be (and is!) a fence between them and the cache, but I can’t see anything on this map that would make me think I was trespassing.

edit: ...and apparently it won’t upload the screenshot over cellular, lol. Nor allow me to delete this now somewhat useless post.

Edited January 21, 2018 by Doc_musketeers
Exhibit A is missing

[+Doc_musketeers]

Cropped it a bit to make the file smaller

[+Harry Dolphin]

2 hours ago, Doc_musketeers said:

I agree with your point in general, but most of the time now, we aren’t staring at the map app. When I’m urban caching alone:

1) Using my iPhone, I see a cache I want to find

2) I read the description, mainly looking for clues as to general location and hide type. I might even check out some logs.

3) I hit “start” and then the “Directions” arrow icon and select Google Maps. Maybe I check to see how close I can park to GZ. If the cache is described as a P&G then I probably don’t even look.

4) I begin driving while LISTENING to the directions.

5) while driving I would hopefully notice any warning signage, but if I’m maneuvering through residential roads I'm not overly analyzing each turn.

6) once I’ve “Arrived” I may or may not glance again at the Google App map. More likely than not I’ll switch back to the Geocaching App so as to use its direction/distance indicators. I hop out and follow the directional line. Short of signage, gates, obviously walking into someone’s front yard, etc. I wouldn’t necessarily have any reason to question my direction of approach.

my point is that while driving in an unfamiliar neighborhood, map reading skills aren’t really at play. Without some contraindication, I’d tend to trust my navigational app.

When I’m traveling and ask Siri for directions to the nearest gas station, I don’t pull over and analyze the route. I wouldn’t challenge it unless I saw something while driving that raised concerns. That’s just how most people use navigational software, not a failure of responsibility. The problem is that Geocaches are seldom at an actual address and the map app just gets you as close as it can on the road, which DOES require us to be a bit more aware.

Sometimes I check the cache pages/maps for caches that I'm interested in.  Sometimes that helps.  I use eTrex30 and nüvi.  I like COs that list parking spots and trail heads.  But that is not too common.  Went looking for an interesting challenge cache in Delaware.  Coords for cache and parking.  But not for the entrance to the park.  First try the nüvi said to park on the side of the Interstate.  I don't think so.  And no way to turn around and try again. Next time I found the entrance to the park.  (Nice park with beautiful views of the Delaware Memorial Bridge.)  But the nüvi said to park on the jug-handle.  But this time I knew better.

Or you could try a fun one like this:  Fortunately, the CO gave coords for parking at DeKorte Park, and for the trail head.  The older one,nearby, the CO said to park at DeKorte Park, but did not give coords.  So, the nüvi said to park on the NJ Turnpike.  Then, you'd have to climb the fence, and swim across the  canal.  More modern caches list the parking coords.  

[+Doc_musketeers]

23 minutes ago, Harry Dolphin said:

But the nüvi said to park on the jug-handle.  But this time I knew better.

Lol! I have an old Tom-Tom. About 6 years ago I was in San Diego and using it to navigate to a store at night. It instructed me to turn left on a particular street. As I turned I realized one lane was blocked off by unlit barricades. I’d seen a “one-way” sign right before turning so figured the second lane was also mine to use and quickly switched lanes, barely noticing the minor bump of my tires as I did so.

A moment later I realized that I was now driving down the light rail track and that the light approaching dead ahead was a trolly on a collision course.

So you know that test that some states give new drivers to see if they can back up in a straight line? Yeah . . . Turns out that it IS a maneuver at which you might want to be proficient. 

Tom Tom didn’t miss a beat when I changed directions  and advised me to “make a u-turn when possible and head East ...” I did not comply

[+thebruce0]

On 1/20/2018 at 7:42 PM, Harry Dolphin said:

Sometimes I check the cache pages/maps for caches that I'm interested in.  Sometimes that helps.  I use eTrex30 and nüvi.  I like COs that list parking spots and trail heads.  But that is not too common.  Went looking for an interesting challenge cache in Delaware.  Coords for cache and parking.  But not for the entrance to the park.  First try the nüvi said to park on the side of the Interstate.  I don't think so.  And no way to turn around and try again. Next time I found the entrance to the park.  (Nice park with beautiful views of the Delaware Memorial Bridge.)  But the nüvi said to park on the jug-handle.  But this time I knew better.

Wow... that's a crazy instance. This is one reason I like Geosphere as a gc app.  I occasionally take my entire waypoint database, extract the parking (and trailhead) waypoints and re-load them as independent waypoints so I could choose to show or hide them. Or more easily, just display a localized search from all waypoints and show the additional waypoints.
So if I'm looking for parking where there are no waypoints in active caches, there's up to 18 years of historic cache data that may include old now-archived parking waypoints to view as well.  It's quite handy.

It would be a cool feature if GS would provide a parking search option that would display all known parking waypoints near your location. That could even be a map feature for a more passive icon layer of visible PK and TH waypoints.  Of course it's not guaranteed, but it's a much better indicator than having a map with no parking options and a cache somewhere in an otherwise vague location with no clear access.